Bigby's Tripping Hand [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bigby's Tripping Hand [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rironin
06-29-07, 12:19 AM The Bigby's Tripping Hand spell from the PHB II sounded pretty cool until I saw the "Saving Throw: Reflex negates." This spell basically makes a trip check to knock someone prone. I had assumed without looking at it that no initial save would be required. Do they really have to fail a Reflex save just to get to the trip check to be affected by the spell? That seems super weak to me. Misprint, maybe, hopefully? Not that there's any errata that could correct me? :P

Edit: I just noticed that the spell mentions attack bonus as well as trip check. I had assumed you didn't have to worry about the touch attack. Does this mean you have to fail a Reflex save, get hit by a touch attack, and fail your opposed trip check just to be affected by this spell?! Yikes! Also, is the hand Medium sized? It is described as "This large hand", but it's also described as torso-sized, and usually when books refer to official sizes they capitalize the letter.
Selandril
06-29-07, 01:40 AM Maybe half damage. Lots of classes/feats negate things meant to give half on successful save: Wizards were probably thinking ahead.
Not like that's happened before... :P
rironin
06-29-07, 07:49 AM Maybe half damage. Lots of classes/feats negate things meant to give half on successful save: Wizards were probably thinking ahead.
Not like that's happened before... :PHuh? This spell doesn't deal damage. The hand performs a single tripping maneuver - if the spell succeeds, the target is prone. That is the only effect of the spell, so I can't see how there's any damage here to be halved... besides, it says "Reflex negates".

The reason I ask is because most spells that mimic combat actions like bull rushing, grappling, direct attacking and the like (such as the other bigby's hand spells in the PHB I or evard's black tentacles, or even spiritual weapon) do not have a saving throw to negate on top of the other checks which must succeed in order to affect the target. This spell sounds like it gives too many chances to fail for it to be effective, even for a first level spell.
chipstacking
06-29-07, 10:27 AM You do not have to make an attack roll. The Attack bonus is listed so you know what his trip attempt will be. You still have to roll the trip attempt. So you would have a casterlevel + key ability mod + 2(str of hand) + 1 per 3 caster levels +4 (large). A 10 level caster with an 18 int would have a +23 trip attempt. That will trip most opponents with a high rate of success.

I do think it is a misprint that you get a reflex save and still have to roll the trip..
rironin
06-29-07, 10:44 AM You do not have to make an attack roll. The Attack bonus is listed so you know what his trip attempt will be. You still have to roll the trip attempt. So you would have a casterlevel + key ability mod + 2(str of hand) + 1 per 3 caster levels +4 (large). A 10 level caster with an 18 int would have a +23 trip attempt. That will trip most opponents with a high rate of success.

I do think it is a misprint that you get a reflex save and still have to roll the trip..That's how I read it at first - but an opposed Trip roll is not an attack roll, it's a Strength check. It notably doesn't involve base attack bonus in any way, shape or form.Its attack bonus equals your caster level + your key ability modifier + 2 for the hand's Strength score (14). The hand has a bonus of +1 on the trip attempt for every three caster levels, to a maximum of +5 at 15th level.So they refer to an attack bonus, then later to a trip attempt. I'm not convinced that they're the same thing, since as I said, the opposed roll to resolve the trip attempt is not an attack roll - but the unarmed melee touch attack that most Trip attempts require is...

Also, even though I raised the question about the hand's size, I am not so sure that it's clear the hand is Large (as opposed to "large", which the spell description says it is). I know that that's a small distinction, but the rules are supposed to capitalize sizes when they're using them in the context of the rules. Also, the fluff text describes the hand as "torso-sized". Lastly, if it is Large and gets a +4 bonus, that bonus will never change - why didn't they just throw the bonus in with the other modifiers in the text?

Edit: A +23 Trip attempt will trip a CR 21 titan about 50% of the time. Is that really something a 10th level caster should be able to do with a 1st-level spell? If there really is a Reflex save to negate, then that solves that problem, since a titan would have to nat 1 his save for the trip attempt to even happen, but still... seems wonky to me.
rironin
06-29-07, 11:07 AM At the moment, I'll probably rule that there is no Reflex save, and there is a melee touch attack that uses a bonus of caster level + primary ability modifier + 2. This would be followed by a Trip check with a modifier of +2 (the hand's Strength modifier) + 1 per three caster levels, to a maximum of +5 at 15th level.

This will result in a melee touch attack that succeeds against all but the most dexterous of foes, and a relatively weak Trip check of +2 to +7 at high levels. Why do I think that's balanced? Because I think it's reasonable that this 1st level spell will really only have a good chance of tripping humanoid opponents. Consider the fact that most PCs and humanoid races are going to have a Trip roll equal to their Strength or Dexterity bonus (with the exception of dwarves, who get stability). Even for characters that have huge Strength or Dexterity, they aren't going to get very huge until very high levels, and this is a 1st-level spell.

On the flip side, if you tried to make this spell effective against multi-legged creatures, or creatures that get huge bonuses thanks to large size, then you'd have to make the bonus so huge that no Medium sized humanoid would have a chance of making the roll to resist being tripped. So I think it's reasonable to make this spell fairly effective against creatures that are similar to the PCs, but mostly useless against enormous multi-legged creatures.

Edit: You could say that giving it the Reflex save and having one huge Trip check would sort of work the same way - the save would prevent it from working on high-CR creatures, but if they failed that save, humanoids would have an extremely hard time avoiding the trip. Still, I dunno :P
rironin
07-01-07, 01:38 AM Ugh. I emailed Customer Service, and they say you get a Reflex save, there is a melee touch attack, and there is the trip check. So three rolls - the Reflex Save, an easy (but still missable) touch attack, and a really crappy (+2 to +7) opposed trip roll, all to knock a single target prone. What a worthless spell.
The_Unseen_Illusion
07-01-07, 04:29 PM Maybe you can allow it to last a number of rounds equal to twice the character level (max 10 rounds). And then after it's cast, it's a move action to trip someone, that'll give a wiz/sorc more attempts than just one, and it'll allow them to continue their spellcasting in later rounds too
robitusinz
07-02-07, 09:29 AM Ugh. I emailed Customer Service, and they say you get a Reflex save, there is a melee touch attack, and there is the trip check. So three rolls - the Reflex Save, an easy (but still missable) touch attack, and a really crappy (+2 to +7) opposed trip roll, all to knock a single target prone. What a worthless spell.

The spell sucks, as do all of the "Hand" spells. Why spend a 5th level+ spell slot just to do a combat maneuver?

Just hire a Fighter if you really want to say...push someone away from you...instead of just melting their face with a Maximized Lightning Bolt.
rironin
07-02-07, 09:50 AM Bigby's Tripping Hand is only a 1st level spell, and would've made a fun, unusual battlefield control spell for a minor caster in an encounter of mine. I liked it because the encounter needs something to allow the other mooks to run in and flank, and this spell could do that, as well as potentially stopping a charge in progress if the caster could ready it. Grease might work, but then the area around the target will be slippery too. Bigby's Tipping Hand was actually perfect, if it weren't so bad :(
HuManBing
07-02-07, 09:56 AM Bigby's Tripping Hand:

Material component: 1 mg Lysergic-diethylamide acid. :D
robitusinz
07-02-07, 09:58 AM Bigby's Tripping Hand is only a 1st level spell, and would've made a fun, unusual battlefield control spell for a minor caster in an encounter of mine. I liked it because the encounter needs something to allow the other mooks to run in and flank, and this spell could do that, as well as potentially stopping a charge in progress if the caster could ready it. Grease might work, but then the area around the target will be slippery too. Bigby's Tipping Hand was actually perfect, if it weren't so bad :(

I think there's a spell somewhere that causes everyone in an area to make a reflex save or fall down prone. I beleive it's called Tremor. I don't know what book it's in off the top of my head, sorry.

Making someone fall prone shouldn't be so difficult to do. Why don't you just create a spell that does what you want it to? If you're the DM, then nothing should really hold you back. Falling prone really isn't something gamebreaking...all it is is -4 to AC while you're down, and it takes a move equivalent action to get up. It's not a stun or a daze...the target still threatens his area (though he gets a -4 to hit), and he still isn't susceptible to sneak attacks. Forcing someone prone just impedes their movement for a round, which just HAS to be balanced against Magic Missile, Grease, Entangle, or just about any of the other "good" 1st level spells.
Fabius Maximus
07-02-07, 10:37 AM You mean 'Ironthunder Horn', formerly called 'Balagar's Iron Horn'. It's a level 2 Spell for Sorcerer and Wizards.

Tremor is level 3 and has an other effect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rironin 06-29-07, 12:19 AM	The Bigby's Tripping Hand spell from the PHB II sounded pretty cool until I saw the "Saving Throw: Reflex negates." This spell basically makes a trip check to knock someone prone. I had assumed without looking at it that no initial save would be required. Do they really have to fail a Reflex save just to get to the trip check to be affected by the spell? That seems super weak to me. Misprint, maybe, hopefully? Not that there's any errata that could correct me? :P Edit: I just noticed that the spell mentions attack bonus as well as trip check. I had assumed you didn't have to worry about the touch attack. Does this mean you have to fail a Reflex save, get hit by a touch attack, and fail your opposed trip check just to be affected by this spell?! Yikes! Also, is the hand Medium sized? It is described as "This large hand", but it's also described as torso-sized, and usually when books refer to official sizes they capitalize the letter.
Selandril 06-29-07, 01:40 AM	Maybe half damage. Lots of classes/feats negate things meant to give half on successful save: Wizards were probably thinking ahead. Not like that's happened before... :P
rironin 06-29-07, 07:49 AM	Maybe half damage. Lots of classes/feats negate things meant to give half on successful save: Wizards were probably thinking ahead. Not like that's happened before... :PHuh? This spell doesn't deal damage. The hand performs a single tripping maneuver - if the spell succeeds, the target is prone. That is the only effect of the spell, so I can't see how there's any damage here to be halved... besides, it says "Reflex negates". The reason I ask is because most spells that mimic combat actions like bull rushing, grappling, direct attacking and the like (such as the other bigby's hand spells in the PHB I or evard's black tentacles, or even spiritual weapon) do not have a saving throw to negate on top of the other checks which must succeed in order to affect the target. This spell sounds like it gives too many chances to fail for it to be effective, even for a first level spell.
chipstacking 06-29-07, 10:27 AM	You do not have to make an attack roll. The Attack bonus is listed so you know what his trip attempt will be. You still have to roll the trip attempt. So you would have a casterlevel + key ability mod + 2(str of hand) + 1 per 3 caster levels +4 (large). A 10 level caster with an 18 int would have a +23 trip attempt. That will trip most opponents with a high rate of success. I do think it is a misprint that you get a reflex save and still have to roll the trip..
rironin 06-29-07, 10:44 AM	You do not have to make an attack roll. The Attack bonus is listed so you know what his trip attempt will be. You still have to roll the trip attempt. So you would have a casterlevel + key ability mod + 2(str of hand) + 1 per 3 caster levels +4 (large). A 10 level caster with an 18 int would have a +23 trip attempt. That will trip most opponents with a high rate of success. I do think it is a misprint that you get a reflex save and still have to roll the trip..That's how I read it at first - but an opposed Trip roll is not an attack roll, it's a Strength check. It notably doesn't involve base attack bonus in any way, shape or form.Its attack bonus equals your caster level + your key ability modifier + 2 for the hand's Strength score (14). The hand has a bonus of +1 on the trip attempt for every three caster levels, to a maximum of +5 at 15th level.So they refer to an attack bonus, then later to a trip attempt. I'm not convinced that they're the same thing, since as I said, the opposed roll to resolve the trip attempt is not an attack roll - but the unarmed melee touch attack that most Trip attempts require is... Also, even though I raised the question about the hand's size, I am not so sure that it's clear the hand is Large (as opposed to "large", which the spell description says it is). I know that that's a small distinction, but the rules are supposed to capitalize sizes when they're using them in the context of the rules. Also, the fluff text describes the hand as "torso-sized". Lastly, if it is Large and gets a +4 bonus, that bonus will never change - why didn't they just throw the bonus in with the other modifiers in the text? Edit: A +23 Trip attempt will trip a CR 21 titan about 50% of the time. Is that really something a 10th level caster should be able to do with a 1st-level spell? If there really is a Reflex save to negate, then that solves that problem, since a titan would have to nat 1 his save for the trip attempt to even happen, but still... seems wonky to me.
rironin 06-29-07, 11:07 AM	At the moment, I'll probably rule that there is no Reflex save, and there is a melee touch attack that uses a bonus of caster level + primary ability modifier + 2. This would be followed by a Trip check with a modifier of +2 (the hand's Strength modifier) + 1 per three caster levels, to a maximum of +5 at 15th level. This will result in a melee touch attack that succeeds against all but the most dexterous of foes, and a relatively weak Trip check of +2 to +7 at high levels. Why do I think that's balanced? Because I think it's reasonable that this 1st level spell will really only have a good chance of tripping humanoid opponents. Consider the fact that most PCs and humanoid races are going to have a Trip roll equal to their Strength or Dexterity bonus (with the exception of dwarves, who get stability). Even for characters that have huge Strength or Dexterity, they aren't going to get very huge until very high levels, and this is a 1st-level spell. On the flip side, if you tried to make this spell effective against multi-legged creatures, or creatures that get huge bonuses thanks to large size, then you'd have to make the bonus so huge that no Medium sized humanoid would have a chance of making the roll to resist being tripped. So I think it's reasonable to make this spell fairly effective against creatures that are similar to the PCs, but mostly useless against enormous multi-legged creatures. Edit: You could say that giving it the Reflex save and having one huge Trip check would sort of work the same way - the save would prevent it from working on high-CR creatures, but if they failed that save, humanoids would have an extremely hard time avoiding the trip. Still, I dunno :P
rironin 07-01-07, 01:38 AM	Ugh. I emailed Customer Service, and they say you get a Reflex save, there is a melee touch attack, and there is the trip check. So three rolls - the Reflex Save, an easy (but still missable) touch attack, and a really crappy (+2 to +7) opposed trip roll, all to knock a single target prone. What a worthless spell.
The_Unseen_Illusion 07-01-07, 04:29 PM	Maybe you can allow it to last a number of rounds equal to twice the character level (max 10 rounds). And then after it's cast, it's a move action to trip someone, that'll give a wiz/sorc more attempts than just one, and it'll allow them to continue their spellcasting in later rounds too
robitusinz 07-02-07, 09:29 AM	Ugh. I emailed Customer Service, and they say you get a Reflex save, there is a melee touch attack, and there is the trip check. So three rolls - the Reflex Save, an easy (but still missable) touch attack, and a really crappy (+2 to +7) opposed trip roll, all to knock a single target prone. What a worthless spell. The spell sucks, as do all of the "Hand" spells. Why spend a 5th level+ spell slot just to do a combat maneuver? Just hire a Fighter if you really want to say...push someone away from you...instead of just melting their face with a Maximized Lightning Bolt.
rironin 07-02-07, 09:50 AM	Bigby's Tripping Hand is only a 1st level spell, and would've made a fun, unusual battlefield control spell for a minor caster in an encounter of mine. I liked it because the encounter needs something to allow the other mooks to run in and flank, and this spell could do that, as well as potentially stopping a charge in progress if the caster could ready it. Grease might work, but then the area around the target will be slippery too. Bigby's Tipping Hand was actually perfect, if it weren't so bad :(
HuManBing 07-02-07, 09:56 AM	Bigby's Tripping Hand: Material component: 1 mg Lysergic-diethylamide acid. :D
robitusinz 07-02-07, 09:58 AM	Bigby's Tripping Hand is only a 1st level spell, and would've made a fun, unusual battlefield control spell for a minor caster in an encounter of mine. I liked it because the encounter needs something to allow the other mooks to run in and flank, and this spell could do that, as well as potentially stopping a charge in progress if the caster could ready it. Grease might work, but then the area around the target will be slippery too. Bigby's Tipping Hand was actually perfect, if it weren't so bad :( I think there's a spell somewhere that causes everyone in an area to make a reflex save or fall down prone. I beleive it's called Tremor. I don't know what book it's in off the top of my head, sorry. Making someone fall prone shouldn't be so difficult to do. Why don't you just create a spell that does what you want it to? If you're the DM, then nothing should really hold you back. Falling prone really isn't something gamebreaking...all it is is -4 to AC while you're down, and it takes a move equivalent action to get up. It's not a stun or a daze...the target still threatens his area (though he gets a -4 to hit), and he still isn't susceptible to sneak attacks. Forcing someone prone just impedes their movement for a round, which just HAS to be balanced against Magic Missile, Grease, Entangle, or just about any of the other "good" 1st level spells.
Fabius Maximus 07-02-07, 10:37 AM	You mean 'Ironthunder Horn', formerly called 'Balagar's Iron Horn'. It's a level 2 Spell for Sorcerer and Wizards. Tremor is level 3 and has an other effect.