Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WeZil 03-28-06, 09:16 AM	Hi there. I'm making a campaign where the Big Bad Evil Guy is a wizard that, at some point, transfers his soul and conciousness from his fleshy human body to that of a Construct as an alternative to becoming a Lich. I want to know if A: This is possible in the current rule set, and if so, how is it done? And B: If it's not done, where are some good ideas to start and what do you think the stats would be for a construct specially built to house the soul of a wizard would be? Thanks for your help.
FEADIN1 03-28-06, 09:51 AM	Don't know things to do exactly that but you can always say that there is a gem in the construct that hold the soul of the wizard, like a permanent magic jar or trap the soul (on himself). A kind of phylactery but in the construct. See existing constructs, Craft construct feat and the spell Awaken construct.
Jarrad 03-28-06, 10:23 AM	Just a few thoughts... 1) I don't believe it's possible under the current rules, unless you are talking about a "living construct" type like the Warforged in Eberron. You could use Magic Jar on them, or any other soul-transferring spell. That said, I'm largely a core-rules user and haven't read anything like the number of supplements as some people on these forums so the chances are that there's something already in existence that I don't know about. 2) Be careful to stay consistent. If you're talking about using something like an Iron Golem, your wizard would have a huge arcane spell-failure chance so keep the armour bonus of your construct realistic and consistent with the materials chosen. 3) Decide in advance what "type" the wizard is going to have once he has pulled this off. "Construct" gives certain advantages, to be sure, but there are pitfalls... and your players will argue that certain special qualities of the type, like an immunity to mind-controlling spells, are not applicable to a sentient construct. And they'd be right! As for the exact stats, well... that's up to you. I'd say that it very much depends on what level your party is at and whether you want to wipe them out ;) Start by looking at the statistics for various types of golem and decide which elements are appropriate for inclusion... but more than anything, ask yourself this: *why* does the wizard want to do it? What is he hoping to achieve? You have to ensure that whatever you come up with fulfills the bad guy's criteria or it was a waste of time! Certainly, a wizard isn't going to want to bind his spirit to a form that limits his spellcasting ability for instance - which is a good example of a negative criterion to avoid - but what DOES he want from the change? Cheers, Jarrad
Peter Smile 03-28-06, 10:43 AM	Jarrad has a point Why don't you try with a psion? It would be easy and consistent.
WeZil 03-28-06, 12:45 PM	I've got all the backstory of WHY he wants to do that worked out just fine. Don't worry about that. At this point, I'm looking purely for the mechanics. Anyway, back on topic. 1) I'm not talking about the living construct type under the core rules. The actual inspiration of this came from the existance of the intelligent Inevitables, so I figured "What would happen if a wizard put his soul into a Construct?" And I get this. I've read into the Living Construct type, and I don't feel it's consistent with the "Golem with a SPirit bound to it" idea. 2) It won't be an Iron Golem, I can garuntee you that. I've already concluded that this would have to be a very, VERY specially made construct body in order for it to work the way the caster wants it. I'll figure some way to make it make sense or tack on Spellsword levels to his character class list. 3) Construct. And the immunity to mind effecting abilities would carry over. Other sentient beings of types that have this are equally immune (Treants, for example, are immune to mind effecting abilities as per the class ability), so I won't deny that. Yes, he's going to be powerful. That's something of the point. I probobly should have mentioned this before, but this is going to be a very, very epic leveled campaign. There'll be some serious planescaping, and an even more powerful version of the umbral blot. This guy is the enemy type, and I want him to be damned tough. I won't make the last, climactic fight impossible, but I will make it damned hard, damnit. And no Psion. They're cool, and all. I like them a lot, and I"m sure soembody'll play them and that's also cool, but no Psion. They just don't have that "Hey, I have an idea! Why don't I defile nature in a quest for power!" sort of feel to them like Wizards do.
Grug the Just 03-28-06, 01:15 PM	Firstly, anything is possible, it's all in how it's balanced. Here's what I'm assuming is the situation thus far. A wizard wishes to put his soul into a construct, getting rid of his old body in the process. You want him to work at full effectiveness. What kind of level, for CR purposes, are we working with? Whether or not this could be a PrC, rather than a template? Any other notworthy points?
PlasmaBunny 03-28-06, 01:40 PM	The wizard could probably just use Still Spell on his spells in order to avoid arcane spell failure chance.
Sylvaroth 03-28-06, 02:26 PM	Some time ago I designed the so called Golem Armor (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6074643&postcount=46) as you can see in my thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=301429&page=1&pp=10) of the same name. It is a mixture of construct and magical armor which is used by dwarves to enhance their mining and defense capabilities. It utilizes Mazarcane (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=317207), a magical crystal, in a way that enables the wearer of the GolemArmor to connect his mind with it. In this way the wearer and the armor can act as one entity. Maybe this gives you some ideas how to create a big bad evil construct wizard. Additionally I could give you a hand with some of the details. Kudos Sylvaroth
WeZil 03-28-06, 03:32 PM	Firstly, anything is possible, it's all in how it's balanced. Thank you for making an excellent point :) Here's what I'm assuming is the situation thus far. A wizard wishes to put his soul into a construct, getting rid of his old body in the process. You want him to work at full effectiveness. What kind of level, for CR purposes, are we working with? Whether or not this could be a PrC, rather than a template? Any other notworthy points? The wizard will be of epic casting by the time he gets around to completing the project, although he'll be actively performing research on the subject from levels 7 and on in the Eberron setting. The players will encounter him early on, when he's still a fairly good person. Around this time the project still has an entirely benevolent intent (Since, you know... Dolurrh is a pretty crappy place), but eventually takes a series of sharp turns towards the end. The kind of level we're dealing with here is upper. Maybe even as high as a CR 34 or 35 encounter for just him. He's gonna be the primary target for most of the game... not exactly the last guy the party will fight, that'll go to the suped up Umbral Blot, but still, he's the primary villian. I don't think a PrC would work. It's fine for the lich because I can see the gradual shift from Living to Undead being possible. But I don't see how it'd be possible for there to be a gradual shift from "Living, fleshy body" to "inhabitting a specially built construct body" working very well. A very high cost but applicable template would have to do. I figure the body would be made of, or at least thoroughly laced with, some sort of metal that is highly reactive or conductive of magic. Something that takes to Magic like no other, as to allow for magic to flow freely and let the Construct wiard cast easily. If these sort of things exist (I'm thinkin' Dragonshards, but I'm not entirely sure of their function outside of Elemental Binding), that would be a great start. I also figure that there might even be an Int or cha bonus (Small, if anything) for the caster since he is no longer bothered by the pains and lusts of mortal flesh (I'm sure you could focus a lot more with things like food, physical comfort, sleep, disease, small things that make you itch, your keys poking you in the wrong way and sex entirely off your mind). Sylvaroth: Thank you, that gives me some things to work off by comparison :)
Sylvaroth 03-28-06, 04:05 PM	You are very welcome! :D In mentioned thread of mine (that about Mazarcane) a poster mentioned similarities to dragonshards with my magical crystal. Since Khyber dragonshards are used to bind elementals to ships, the lightning train aso. I think at least the portion that houses the wizard's soul should be made of nightshards to do the binding. As for the material the construct should be made of, which should be 'highly reactive or conductive of magic', well Mazarcane IS magic. Now how does an evil wizard's soul inside of a construct made of pure magic sound to you?
PlasmaBunny 03-28-06, 04:14 PM	Are you sure a PRC would be out of it? The PRC Green Star Adept (From Complete Arcane) could easily be adapted for Golem parts instead of the wizards body changing due to star metal, it gives primary caster level progression, but only half spell progression. Mind you, it doesn't have the coolness factor of him showing up COMPLETELY different and in a hulking golem body with a glowing dragonshard deep within it's chest.
Sylvaroth 03-28-06, 04:44 PM	As a matter of fact I am pretty interested in how you will do it in the end. One of the main characters of my campaign world is a golem inhabited by the soul of a powerful spellcaster. Of course he is mainly a part of the story though I would like to explain how he did it, if my players happened to ask about it.
Mist of Shadows 03-28-06, 09:21 PM	Something you might be interested in. :) I found this the other day when I was reading though my books. Page 173 (in the epic level book) right hand colum under the creation of the flesh colossus. It says that if you don't have a ghost to animate your toy you can animate it yourself by casting magic jar. Basically all of that to show that we have a book example of a wizard using a colossus (golem like creature only bigger) as a body. As for what happens to your own body not sure but I'm sure some preserving magic would fix it. So we have a nice simple method. Magic jar. Just create a golem that requires a spirit to animate it. It's not going to be insanily expensive. It can't be worse then a million or so gold. The flesh colossus is only like 700,000 and some and 100,000 of that is for the body. So make the golem 500,000 more expensive? (at the most) and you should be fine.
Feor 03-28-06, 09:38 PM	If it's a BBEG, then you have DM's perogative. Unless you intend for your players to be able to use it themselves, you only have to tell them that his soul is in a Construct, and give them enough hints that they can figure out what needs to be done about it. If you really wanted a way to do it though, I'd reccomend keeping it simple: 2 spells, Clone to make a body for his soul to go into when he dies, and Wish to turn the Clone body into that of an Iron(or whatever, Mithril would be nasty) Golem. Even lets you add a bit more drama into the mix, since he'll appear in his golem body shortly after the party's already killed him. :)
Grug the Just 03-28-06, 11:09 PM	Well, if he's going to be an epic caster. Perhaps an Epic Spell is in order. Even though changing a duration to permanent is a x5 multiplier you may be able to get the right DC with a ritual (meaning multiple casters contributing), Xp drain, Casting time increase, Backlash damage, and let's not forget an ad-hoc negative for sacrificing his body in this manner. At that point just add what you want. Though I see a bad downside in the fact that the duration will be dispel-able being permanent. I'm not sure of how difficult it would be to dispel. You could also increase the DC to make him immune to magic like a standard Golem, and getting hit by dispel magic might cause him to go unconcious. This may be an easier way to go.
Sylvaroth 03-29-06, 03:04 AM	What about an ancient necromantic artifact, that traps the soul of whoever touches it? Only the most powerful wizards would succeed in a Will save to be able to control the (constructlike) artifact and may even use some powers and abilities of previous victims of the artifact. Could have some of the features of the illithid savant prc concearning how to use the remnants of previously devoured souls. That would be:a powerful evil wizard's soul bound to a constructlike artifact made of materialized pure magic that eats souls.
Beppo 03-29-06, 03:40 AM	There is also a spell called "Awaken Construct" in the Spell Compendium. With it you can give a normal construct humanlike sentience. Your evil wizard could steal this soul and replace it with his own. There are multiple ways (read spells) to accomplish this task. Maybe it could lead to some intended confusion when your players enter the wizard's lair and find his body kind of motionless (incapacitated but containing the golem's soul) and slay it. Maybe they awaken it and the thing goes rampage, imagine the should-be smart wizard moaning and making useless "slam" attacks with his weak arms.
sabrewolf 03-29-06, 03:45 AM	As usual for myself ideas abbound :dancin: But in this case i have more then a few thoughts since i planed a char like that once - But havent went much into details, too many chars and too little games to try them :bigeyes: oh, my.. :P Well, let´s see if i can lend a paw: The wizard will be of epic casting by the time he gets around to completing the project, although he'll be actively performing research on the subject from levels 7 and on... The hardest to make being so open ended but easyest by not worrying about balance: Epic Spellcasting. One big spell and *poof* you´re it!!! The bad side? it was already said: it´s a spell and can be dispelled not to mention it loose effect on dead-magic areas.. It´s still an idea but not exactly what you seek, i guess.. ...in the Eberron setting. That one is easy, as long as it´s on that setting: Eberron. First, find a lost Forge, then a few old tomes or scrolls with information about it, a good load of special materials. Now cook yourself (your body) for material component and add a lemmon on top of that for a unique Warforged with you inside. Use the body feats as guidance and make your own for that special material you used and you have half of what you want. Give this wizard some Warforged Prc to get the exact detail and you´re set. The kind of level we're dealing with here is upper. Maybe even as high as a CR 34 or 35 encounter for just him. Both ideas above go along with that premisse, that he´s a high level character / NPC.. at least such change could happen some way about level 15-16 or above. Before that only researching.. But if he´s going to be level 35, when he actually did the change is background only.. ;) I figure the body would be made of, or at least thoroughly laced with, some sort of metal that is highly reactive or conductive of magic. Something that takes to Magic like no other, as to allow for magic to flow freely and let the Construct wiard cast easily. If these sort of things exist (I'm thinkin' Dragonshards, but I'm not entirely sure of their function outside of Elemental Binding), that would be a great start. On that i have not a single idea since there´s no magic-conductive material that i know of. Yet there are a few i might suggest that might work if your wizard is aligned by, say, some element: If his spells are themed around an element, fever-iron for fire, copper (or is it gold) for electricity.. a look at Magic of Faerum can say more about these. You could also make one your own, either something taken from Mystra´s realm (or eberron´s equivalent deity); condensed magic from some major (epic?) spell or site-based iten on a magic node; a lot of dragonshards melted into magma and merged/fused into a single big mass to be shaped; Or maybe you harvest the chosen material (assuming it´s not planar or elemental based) from the Plane of Life, making the transition also there, so it´s infused with the energy that will keep your spirit ´alive´ .. or some other unique thing.. :D I also figure that there might even be an Int or cha bonus .....since he is no longer bothered by the pains and lusts of mortal flesh Not sure about the Int bonus, mayhaps as influence on the Special Material that forms the body (or maybe a ´half´ bonus, that is applyed only to spellcasting (slots, DCs, etc) and not to skill ).. But i´d give him a Cha penalty instead: By losing all that you mention, He´d become less human in an alike way that a lich. Given time he´d grow colder, more distant and find it not as easy to deal with them ´fleshlings´ very well. Ah, and one bit about the mind effect imunities. Tree-ents have it, yes, but they are plants to begin with. Warforged are ´half-golems´: can be healed, drink potions.. so not ´pure´ golem, thus affected by mind effects. Your wizard is originally mortal so i´d not give him such imunity. The transition could give him a bonus (+2, +4, +5) but since his escence is still of a mortal and not a golem awakened, i wouldnt give him the imunity for being a golem... But he may get it from some spell or from an iten he carries or is made part of him. :D Well, now i made a few points on your lines, I did mentioned a character concept of mine up there, eh? :P Right-O. So this is how he could have done it.. *(note) The character I created was cross-class: wiz/clr, wiz/dru, or Prc: Mystic Theurge, Geomancer. Yet It was more for concept reasons. May work with pure Wiz. ;) General golem (metal / stone / crystal ) : Golems are animated by Elementals, bound by Geas (it´s on their prerreq.s usualy). By getting the Elemental Savant one becomes in the end an elemental. With some research and by modifying the ´how-to´ to build a golem one may use himself as part of the components and being an elemental use himself to animate it, thus becoming the golem.. Mechanic-wise it´s more a matter of picking you choice golem and applying it as a template to the wizard. Living Wood - A variation that followed after i considered the astronomical cost :gah: of making the metal body for him and his followers (it was a birthright game) plus the ´forge´ (Wonder) : This one would be done either by a transmutation (instant, not permanent.. difficult but possible, i guess) or by using a variant of Clone on the living wood body, plus Magic Jar to leap off your body then into the golem at the final moment, with the original body being ´consumed´ as part of the golem´s material components... That way the final act with you leaping into the golem, ´burns´ your former body and activates the clone that´ll stick you there and animate the new body as your own - an idea used also for the metal body on the above paragraph. If these serve as idea seeds, creative usage of some spells, plus a pint of necromantic knowledge (soul-related spells and lich included), and an uncommon wizard with an objective, a reason for it, in mind is what you need for whis wizard.. :mage: Hope all this barking and howling is of use for you in this NPC (BBEG) idea, or any other that is interested. ...And there´s also the half-golem template that comes in pieces. There are limbs, not sure of chest, but no head (you´d have to make the effect for that).. All with increasing save DC not to loose your mind but do-able all at once. Not sure if of use, only saw it on a friend´s book (MM2 or MM3) long ago.
Feor 03-29-06, 08:09 AM	I didn't notice the bit about it being from eberron, that makes the whole thing even easier and he won't have to be Epic level to finish it, he could do it by level 16. Just grab Magic of Eberron and have him run through the Renegade Mastermaker prestige class. It's level 10 ability turns you into a living construct. If you make sure you take Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Admantine Body as you progress through your Mastermaker Levels you could folow it with levels of Warforged Juggernaught, which would bring him closer to being an actual Golem (only missing the magic immunity and dark/low-light vision, I believe)
YabaTheWhat 03-29-06, 11:11 AM	I don't know if these have been mentioned yet, but... ¤ Wish ¤ Magic Jar + Permanency ¤ Polymorph + Permanency
WeZil 03-30-06, 04:19 PM	I didn't notice the bit about it being from eberron, that makes the whole thing even easier and he won't have to be Epic level to finish it, he could do it by level 16. Just grab Magic of Eberron and have him run through the Renegade Mastermaker prestige class. It's level 10 ability turns you into a living construct. If you make sure you take Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Admantine Body as you progress through your Mastermaker Levels you could folow it with levels of Warforged Juggernaught, which would bring him closer to being an actual Golem (only missing the magic immunity and dark/low-light vision, I believe) That would break the flavor and purpose of his research, though. As said above, the original purpose is to provide a way of avoiding death. The idea is that it is one that doesn't involve undead. Ergo, this is something that could logically be applied to anybody who has the funds to undergo such a transformation. What it will end up becoming is that he becomes a new kind of magically powerful construct. Now, in the short story, this is basically a Lich, but a construct instead of Undead. So what I started to look at when it came to the template is the Lich template, and twisting it where applicable. Lich template seen here: http://d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm Ideally, it would be as good as the Lich Template. It is a power creature, after all. Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to construct, and his size to Medium. Hit Dice: Increases/decreases all current and future Hit Dice to d10s. Armor Class: I'm not sure exactly how much the AC will boost. Attack: The <thingy. I haven't come up with a name for it yet>'s long fingers taper down to sharp claws, giving it a 1d6 natural claw attack. (i figure a claw attack would be better than a slam, because slam makes me think of big hands and that seems to clunky for a such a golem) Special attacks: I'm not sure what to put here. Maybe some spell like abilities. Spells: Same as alive Damage REduction: DR 15/Adamantium Immunities: Here's where it gets REALLY iffy. I don't figure this construct would have total immunity to spells like Golems do since it's not a golem. It's mechanics would be more Inevitable like. A high SR? Maybe. Immunities to cold and electricity? Possibly. Immunity to Polymorph? A definite yes, if you ask me. Hell, take it a knotch below the Lich's polymorph immunity and make it so that this guy can't even polymorph himself! Abilities: Definitely plus to Int, maybe even +4. As for Cha... But i´d give him a Cha penalty instead: By losing all that you mention, He´d become less human in an alike way that a lich. Given time he´d grow colder, more distant and find it not as easy to deal with them ´fleshlings´ very well. Lichs would become distant from the 'living', but ya know what? Increase from the base creature as follows: Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2. Being undead, a lich has no Constitution score. A charisma score would likely go up for similar reasons as a Lich: The lack of temptations that the living have (food, exhaustion, sex drives), and the timeless nature of their body, would definitely make more for an enhancement of mental attributes, rather than anything detrimental. Definitely would be magic involved to bind the spirit over. Would they be dispellable? I dunno, can you cast dispell on a golem and removed the spells in place? Or how about on a lich? I'm fairly certain you can't so, no, I don't think that would totally destroy the enchantments. If anything, it could jar them and disorient the poor thing, but not completely kill him. EDIT: Also, since I have a solid idea for what spells to use now in the CREATION of such a creature, I'm now gonna move over to the monsters forum to get help the exact template. The spells for making the body and performing the ritual will be, and may be subject to change, wish and magic jar.
lavekkia 03-30-06, 05:17 PM	I don't know if you are interested but i have created an epic spell for this exact purpouse: the caster acquire the living construct subtype; the type of construct it's up to you (i used a warforged but nothing prevents you to change it) The spell is here : http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=548975 on page 5 - 6