Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trevhippy 03-11-07, 04:05 PM	Do the Bite of the XXXX series (from the Spell Compendium) of spells apply in wild-shape? Nothing in them explicitly says they do not, but it does seem to go against the spells flavour descriptions. They also appear to be hideously broken. They're essentially 3 amazing buffs in one spell, and the fact that you can share them with your animal companion just makes things lunarcy. Yes, that was a were-pun. Any other opinions on this? Am I reading these wrong? --Trev
cwslyclgh 03-11-07, 04:13 PM	if you had the natural spell feat, so that you could cast spells in your wildshaped form, I see no reason why you could not.
Trevhippy 03-11-07, 04:47 PM	Yeah, I thought so, but isn't their power level kind of silly? Bite of the Wererat, the second level buff, nets you 6 dex, 2 con, and 3 natural armor, plus weapon finesse and a bite attack. So +3 to hit, +1hp/level, +6 AC (dex + natural armor), and a bite attack for ONE spell at second level? Compare that to barkskin which ONLY nets +2 AC. Yes, barkskin's duration is longer (and scales slowly), but chances are it'll still only be a one combat buff at that level. And Bite of the Wererat is by far the least ridiculous of those buffs. Does anyone else think these are overpowered? --Trev
Neutronium_Dragon 03-11-07, 04:51 PM	Given their short duration and the level which they come at (and comparable buffs which are available by/before then, especially to the cleric), no.
cwslyclgh 03-11-07, 05:01 PM	I agree with N_D, I do not think it is realy broken.
Trevhippy 03-11-07, 05:16 PM	So, what 6th cleric buff is comparable to Wild-shaping into a Dire Bear and casting Bite of the Werebear to net a total of... 47 str, 27 con, +8 AC? AND gives you power attack, blind-fight, and multi attack for free? I'm not doing this just to be arguementative - I'm genuinely curious. I'm relatively new to 3.5 and I'm worried about incorporating unbalancing things into my game. These buffs + wildshape just seem kick-you-apart-washington strong. --Trev
Richmud 03-11-07, 06:49 PM	These buffs + wildshape just seem kick-you-apart-washington strong. In general buffs+wildshape=win. Its more the wildshape then the buffs that are resulting in the freakish power. On a side note, what happens now if you are wildshaped and cast a con increasing buff?
cwslyclgh 03-11-07, 07:12 PM	On a side note, what happens now if you are wildshaped and cast a con increasing buff?the game crashes like a 1950's computer asked to calculate the value of phi. Seriously the whole your con changes but your HP don't when you polymorph/wild shape/ what have you is a fairly poorly thought out "fix" which causes more problems then it solves.
Flan 03-11-07, 07:20 PM	I'm relatively new to 3.5 and I'm worried about incorporating unbalancing things into my game. Then don't play past level 10 and don't play with anything other than core (PHB, DMG, MM1.) Then the game will only be somewhat unbalanced. Anything past that is like buttering the bread... it's only going to land one way.
StruckingFuggle 03-11-07, 07:23 PM	if you had the natural spell feat, so that you could cast spells in your wildshaped form, I see no reason why you could not. It would also work if you first cast Bite of the WereX and then wildshaped.
cwslyclgh 03-11-07, 08:09 PM	It would also work if you first cast Bite of the WereX and then wildshaped. This I am not so sure about, because when you wildshape it replaces your ability (physical) scores with the average scores of a creature of the type you change into doesn't it?
StruckingFuggle 03-11-07, 08:14 PM	It doesn't change your ability scores, it gives you a bonus to your ability scores, which is an entirely different thing.
cwslyclgh 03-11-07, 08:37 PM	based upon the rules of the game articles you appear to be correct. Alternate form doesn't provide any bonuses or penalties to combine with other magical effects -- it works changes that alter the user's physical attributes. Any magic that provides a numerical bonus or penalty affects a creature in an alternate form normally. For example, a bull's strength spell works on a creature no matter what form it's in. If a creature receives a bonus, such as an enhancement bonus to an ability score, before changing form it retains that bonus when it changes form. Just apply the bonus to whatever basic attribute the new form provides. For example, if the creature changes into a troll, it gains a Strength score of 23. If it also has a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength from a bull's strength, it effectively has a Strength score of 27 while it remains in troll form and while the bull's strength spell lasts.
Empiro 03-11-07, 10:18 PM	I agree that the Bite spells are way too good -- especially if you compare it to the nerfed Righteous Might.
Vaelan 03-12-07, 12:29 AM	The Bite spells are part of the Polymorph replacement effort. The fact that they are problematic when combined with Polymorph-like effects (including Wildshape, see alternate Druid class features) isn't terribly relevant because you're not supposed to be using them together. As for the spells when taken alone, compare them to that which they were meant to help replace: Polymorph.
Trevhippy 03-12-07, 12:35 AM	The fact that they are problematic when combined with Polymorph-like effects (including Wildshape, see alternate Druid class features) isn't terribly relevant because you're not supposed to be using them together. Is there an errata somewhere that says that? I understood that was what the spells were intended to be, but that isn't articulated anywhere I know of. --Trev