bite of the were*** spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

bite of the were*** spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
frietex
05-01-07, 07:26 PM can a druid that is wildshaped use the various
bite spells(wereboar, werewolf, etc) to increase his
overall abilities.......?????????

DM says it doesnt work that way:mad:
Evandar_TAybara
05-01-07, 07:51 PM I believe your DM is wrong. I've checked all the errata for wildshape and the alternate form ability and from what I can tell, when you wild shape you "gain the physical ability scores of your new form" (and it's natural armour). These become your "actual" abilities in this new form, and as such castings of the Bite spells which provide an enhancement bonus to these abilities will increase them accordingly.

Evan.
frietex
05-01-07, 08:03 PM Thanks Evan

thats what i told him
Trevhippy
05-01-07, 08:15 PM There isn't anything in the rules against it, but I think it's hideously broken.

I wouldn't allow the two to stack as a DM.

--Trev
BugHunter
05-01-07, 11:42 PM The druid would need to be under the effect of the bite spell before wildshaping or would need to be a master of many forms and cast it after wildshaping. The effects of the bite spell would add to the new form. The new form might look strange a plant with the mouth of a bear.
JLaurHughes
05-01-07, 11:57 PM Or a Druid with the Natural Spell Feat(PHB p.98) can cast a spell using scrolls of Bite of the Were???(Verbal and Somatic completion:) )
Drachasor
05-02-07, 12:58 AM Or a Druid with the Natural Spell Feat(PHB p.98) can cast a spell using scrolls of Bite of the Were???(Verbal and Somatic completion:) )

Yes. As for the bite, you should be able to use whichever bite is better. The one the spell gives you, or the one you have from wild shaping. That is, you get all the enhancement bonuses, as normal, and then you get the better bite attack (spell or wild shape one).

-Drachasor
Drachasor
05-02-07, 12:59 AM There isn't anything in the rules against it, but I think it's hideously broken.

I wouldn't allow the two to stack as a DM.

--Trev

It's so much more tame than Animal Growth. It doesn't look bad to me.

-Drachasor
Trevhippy
05-03-07, 04:48 PM It's so much more tame than Animal Growth. It doesn't look bad to me.

-Drachasor

You can't be serious. Granted, Animal Growth is probably one of the best spells in the game, but this one is redonkulous.

One spell that gives you...

+16 (!!!) Strength
+8 (another !!!) Con
+2 Dex
+7 Armor
+Power Attack
+Blindfight
+Multi-attack + A bite attack

STACKING with Wild-shape? That's kick-you-apart broken.

You know animal growth doesn't work on yourself, right?

--Trev
tarkin
05-03-07, 05:00 PM If you use the original spells from the WoTC web site than the natural armor does not stack.

Also, in addition you usually DECREASE damage from the natural attacks if you cast the spells after you wildshape.

I can definitely understand why some people consider this spell to be over-powered.
Trevhippy
05-03-07, 06:36 PM If you use the original spells from the WoTC web site than the natural armor does not stack.

The spell compendium book says it's an enhancement bonus - almost everyone references the spell compendium. Does the WoTC site supercede this? I've never heard that before, so if there isn't a source saying the WoTC site is more official I think it's safe to ignore this...

Also, in addition you usually DECREASE damage from the natural attacks if you cast the spells after you wildshape.

I'm almost postive this is incorrect. What level are you thinking of? At lvl 12 you certainly gain a crap-load of damage, as well as hitpoints, as your dire bear becomes the most broken thing this side of polymorph. At level 16, as a large earth elemental, you trade two 2D8+7 slams for two 1D8+15 slams, and a 2d8+7 bite, at +8 and +6 to hit (plus BAB and original str bonus) respectively. You certainly aren't losing any damage there. At level 20 you may lose some damage, but 80 hitpoints, 7 natural armor, and plus 8 (EIGHT) to hit may just tip the scales.

Don't forget these spells give you power-attack and blindfight FOR FREE.

For additional brokeness, you could make a good argument that those claw attacks scale UP in damage as your size increases since it specifies less damage for small size druids.

I can definitely understand why some people consider this spell to be over-powered.

I can't understand why anyone would NOT consider this overpowered when combined with wild-shape. It shouldn't be allowed.

--Trev
Drachasor
05-03-07, 07:11 PM You can't be serious. Granted, Animal Growth is probably one of the best spells in the game, but this one is redonkulous.

One spell that gives you...

+16 (!!!) Strength
+8 (another !!!) Con
+2 Dex
+7 Armor
+Power Attack
+Blindfight
+Multi-attack + A bite attack

STACKING with Wild-shape? That's kick-you-apart broken.

You know animal growth doesn't work on yourself, right?

--Trev

Yeah, it's more tame than animal growth + wild shape (back in the day). No size increase with all that craziness.

Largely it is more like:
+12 Strength (doesn't stack with Bull's Strength or similar effects)
+8 Con (not a big deal, imho)
+2 Dex (assuming you don't have cat's grace, probably do)
+2 Natural Armor (you WILL have Barkskin or a similar spell cast, this is just 2 higher than Bark Skin at this level)

There's a decent chance you already have Power Attack and possibly Multi-attack too (if you are wildshaping a lot).

Unlike Animal Growth, isn't this a 7th or 8th level spell?

-Drachasor
Trevhippy
05-03-07, 09:52 PM The point is, all those buffs come from ONE spell, and they work on you. Animal growth works on your, at this level, mediocreish animal summons. Including other spell's bonuses is silly - you can apply that logic to any other spell too. You don't have to cast those spells with this one now since the benefits of this one is superior. Besides, bull's strength and cat's grace have a minutes/level duration. Those are hard to keep running. Why bother with those when you can just cast this one spell in combat and start the pain train sooner?

I'm amazed you don't think +8 con is a big deal? +4 to fort saves, concentration checks, and 4 hp per level isn't a big deal? I guess we just simply disagree, but this seems pretty freaking sweet.

Bite of the Werebear is a 6th level spell, one higher than animal growth. Bite of the Weretiger is 5th level, and pretty close in power to this one.

I think most druids would consider power attack a waste of a feat considering metamagic feats are more versatile. Same could be said for multi-attack. Especially when you can get access to them through this spell.

No buff is comparable to these spells - at all. They're so far beyond other buffs it's almost like they were put in as a joke.

--Trev
Enigmous
05-03-07, 10:03 PM I agree that it is an overpowered spell. But I don't think it's much compared to summoning a Great Wyrm Celestial Gold dragon as a standard action.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
frietex 05-01-07, 07:26 PM	can a druid that is wildshaped use the various bite spells(wereboar, werewolf, etc) to increase his overall abilities.......????????? DM says it doesnt work that way:mad:
Evandar_TAybara 05-01-07, 07:51 PM	I believe your DM is wrong. I've checked all the errata for wildshape and the alternate form ability and from what I can tell, when you wild shape you "gain the physical ability scores of your new form" (and it's natural armour). These become your "actual" abilities in this new form, and as such castings of the Bite spells which provide an enhancement bonus to these abilities will increase them accordingly. Evan.
frietex 05-01-07, 08:03 PM	Thanks Evan thats what i told him
Trevhippy 05-01-07, 08:15 PM	There isn't anything in the rules against it, but I think it's hideously broken. I wouldn't allow the two to stack as a DM. --Trev
BugHunter 05-01-07, 11:42 PM	The druid would need to be under the effect of the bite spell before wildshaping or would need to be a master of many forms and cast it after wildshaping. The effects of the bite spell would add to the new form. The new form might look strange a plant with the mouth of a bear.
JLaurHughes 05-01-07, 11:57 PM	Or a Druid with the Natural Spell Feat(PHB p.98) can cast a spell using scrolls of Bite of the Were???(Verbal and Somatic completion:) )
Drachasor 05-02-07, 12:58 AM	Or a Druid with the Natural Spell Feat(PHB p.98) can cast a spell using scrolls of Bite of the Were???(Verbal and Somatic completion:) ) Yes. As for the bite, you should be able to use whichever bite is better. The one the spell gives you, or the one you have from wild shaping. That is, you get all the enhancement bonuses, as normal, and then you get the better bite attack (spell or wild shape one). -Drachasor
Drachasor 05-02-07, 12:59 AM	There isn't anything in the rules against it, but I think it's hideously broken. I wouldn't allow the two to stack as a DM. --Trev It's so much more tame than Animal Growth. It doesn't look bad to me. -Drachasor
Trevhippy 05-03-07, 04:48 PM	It's so much more tame than Animal Growth. It doesn't look bad to me. -Drachasor You can't be serious. Granted, Animal Growth is probably one of the best spells in the game, but this one is redonkulous. One spell that gives you... +16 (!!!) Strength +8 (another !!!) Con +2 Dex +7 Armor +Power Attack +Blindfight +Multi-attack + A bite attack STACKING with Wild-shape? That's kick-you-apart broken. You know animal growth doesn't work on yourself, right? --Trev
tarkin 05-03-07, 05:00 PM	If you use the original spells from the WoTC web site than the natural armor does not stack. Also, in addition you usually DECREASE damage from the natural attacks if you cast the spells after you wildshape. I can definitely understand why some people consider this spell to be over-powered.
Trevhippy 05-03-07, 06:36 PM	If you use the original spells from the WoTC web site than the natural armor does not stack. The spell compendium book says it's an enhancement bonus - almost everyone references the spell compendium. Does the WoTC site supercede this? I've never heard that before, so if there isn't a source saying the WoTC site is more official I think it's safe to ignore this... Also, in addition you usually DECREASE damage from the natural attacks if you cast the spells after you wildshape. I'm almost postive this is incorrect. What level are you thinking of? At lvl 12 you certainly gain a crap-load of damage, as well as hitpoints, as your dire bear becomes the most broken thing this side of polymorph. At level 16, as a large earth elemental, you trade two 2D8+7 slams for two 1D8+15 slams, and a 2d8+7 bite, at +8 and +6 to hit (plus BAB and original str bonus) respectively. You certainly aren't losing any damage there. At level 20 you may lose some damage, but 80 hitpoints, 7 natural armor, and plus 8 (EIGHT) to hit may just tip the scales. Don't forget these spells give you power-attack and blindfight FOR FREE. For additional brokeness, you could make a good argument that those claw attacks scale UP in damage as your size increases since it specifies less damage for small size druids. I can definitely understand why some people consider this spell to be over-powered. I can't understand why anyone would NOT consider this overpowered when combined with wild-shape. It shouldn't be allowed. --Trev
Drachasor 05-03-07, 07:11 PM	You can't be serious. Granted, Animal Growth is probably one of the best spells in the game, but this one is redonkulous. One spell that gives you... +16 (!!!) Strength +8 (another !!!) Con +2 Dex +7 Armor +Power Attack +Blindfight +Multi-attack + A bite attack STACKING with Wild-shape? That's kick-you-apart broken. You know animal growth doesn't work on yourself, right? --Trev Yeah, it's more tame than animal growth + wild shape (back in the day). No size increase with all that craziness. Largely it is more like: +12 Strength (doesn't stack with Bull's Strength or similar effects) +8 Con (not a big deal, imho) +2 Dex (assuming you don't have cat's grace, probably do) +2 Natural Armor (you WILL have Barkskin or a similar spell cast, this is just 2 higher than Bark Skin at this level) There's a decent chance you already have Power Attack and possibly Multi-attack too (if you are wildshaping a lot). Unlike Animal Growth, isn't this a 7th or 8th level spell? -Drachasor
Trevhippy 05-03-07, 09:52 PM	The point is, all those buffs come from ONE spell, and they work on you. Animal growth works on your, at this level, mediocreish animal summons. Including other spell's bonuses is silly - you can apply that logic to any other spell too. You don't have to cast those spells with this one now since the benefits of this one is superior. Besides, bull's strength and cat's grace have a minutes/level duration. Those are hard to keep running. Why bother with those when you can just cast this one spell in combat and start the pain train sooner? I'm amazed you don't think +8 con is a big deal? +4 to fort saves, concentration checks, and 4 hp per level isn't a big deal? I guess we just simply disagree, but this seems pretty freaking sweet. Bite of the Werebear is a 6th level spell, one higher than animal growth. Bite of the Weretiger is 5th level, and pretty close in power to this one. I think most druids would consider power attack a waste of a feat considering metamagic feats are more versatile. Same could be said for multi-attack. Especially when you can get access to them through this spell. No buff is comparable to these spells - at all. They're so far beyond other buffs it's almost like they were put in as a joke. --Trev
Enigmous 05-03-07, 10:03 PM	I agree that it is an overpowered spell. But I don't think it's much compared to summoning a Great Wyrm Celestial Gold dragon as a standard action.