BITTER touch AC feud rages on!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

BITTER touch AC feud rages on!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Count_Rugen
05-27-06, 03:15 PM Well, ok, not really bitter. I'm just melodramatic.
I have a wizard who can deliver touch attacks through his staff. This staff is in lieu of a familiar (a Dragon magazine variation).

Question: What happens if I toss my staff at an enemy in order to make contact (thereby delivering a touch attack spell)?

Answer: Nothing, according to our current DM. The worst part is, he seems to have the rules on his side for this seemingly illogical ruling.

Here's his rationale: In order to make a touch attack via my staff by throwing it, I would need to make a touch attack roll using my ranged attack. Only problem is, a quarterstaff has a no "range." Thrown weapons have a -2 for each range increment and can be thrown up to 5 increments, projectiles can be shot up to 10 increments. No ranged increment means it can be “thrown” or “shot” no distance at all. The Throw Anything feat (in Complete Warrior) gives such weapons a range increment of 10 ft as a thrown weapon.

His rationale is sound and seems to adher to the RAW. But it just makes no sense to me. What happens if I throw a familiar, such as a toad? I'm sure toad's have no "range" either, but does that mean I can't throw it? Of course not.

Thoughts?
Neratos
05-27-06, 03:43 PM First you can't throw just anything. Second if you do throw something that is not meant to be thrown with out the throw anything feat it is a -4 attack for improvised weapon. Third the charge in the staff would disapate if it left your hands. Fourth throwing your staff would be a normal ranged attack, not a ranged touch. Fifth you already have a powerful ability in being able to do touch attacks through your staff, try not to push it any further
Vaelan
05-27-06, 04:38 PM First you can't throw just anything. Second if you do throw something that is not meant to be thrown with out the throw anything feat it is a -4 attack for improvised weapon.
I'd like to note that these two statements clearly contradict each other.

Third the charge in the staff would disapate if it left your hands.
Technically, the staff never holds the charge. You hold the charge and deliver it through the staff.

Fourth throwing your staff would be a normal ranged attack, not a ranged touch.
Not if you were just trying to touch them.

Fifth you already have a powerful ability in being able to do touch attacks through your staff, try not to push it any further
That's hardly a powerful ability. Enhancement bonus to hit on touch attacks isn't that great.
Count_Rugen
05-27-06, 08:53 PM Technically, the staff never holds the charge. You hold the charge and deliver it through the staff..

This is correct.

Not if you were just trying to touch them.

So by throwing my staff to touch them, it would be qualify as a ranged touch? What would the calculation be? My ranged attack - 4 (for improvised weapon) vs their touch ac?

That's hardly a powerful ability. Enhancement bonus to hit on touch attacks isn't that great.

There's an enhancement bonus?
Zherog
05-27-06, 08:58 PM Technically, the staff never holds the charge. You hold the charge and deliver it through the staff.

Given this statement, I don't see how the Throw Anything feat would help you. I mean, you'd be able to throw your staff - but the spell wouldn't be in the staff.
Count_Rugen
05-27-06, 09:16 PM Given this statement, I don't see how the Throw Anything feat would help you. I mean, you'd be able to throw your staff - but the spell wouldn't be in the staff.

Forget about the touch attack functionality of the staff. It works remotely. That's not the issue. Nor is the feat. I'm not taking the feat. Moving right along, nothing to see here...

The question is: What is my "calculation" for throwing a quarterstaff?

EDIT:
Thanks for the input all. I found what I was looking for.
Pg 113 of the PHB: "It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table 7-5), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll." ... "Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
FatMonkey13
05-27-06, 09:37 PM 1. Your DM made a call. It is important to respect your DM's calls even if you disagree with him. You can make objection and suggestions but remember that there is no power that overrides a DM not even the rules as written or errata.

2. The rules do not let you do it, your DM does not let you do it, and it is not an obvious thing that can be done in real life. There is little to support your view.

3. There is no logical way to assume how a touch spell is transferred through a staff.

So I would say your DM's call is fair and on firm ground.

In your support...
A familiar can have a spell touch transferred through it.
You can throw a familiar (though not very well, it is often better to select a flying familiar)
You just need to touch the subject

Logic... it is magic... it is not logical for magic to exist

When I look at the though of sending a touch spell through a staff I think this seem similar to how electrons flow down a wire. When the wire is not connected (not touched) the charge does not travel. So if the wire was thrown and left connection with the battery (what hold the charge [in both cases]) the wire would not transfer the charge to any object it hit as it does not have a charge. But if the wire were connected to the battery and did touch something the charge of the battery would be sent through the wire into the other object. So in a way the DM's calling was logical but he should have told you that that was not going to work as your PC should have known that (unless he has very low wisdom).
Nom
05-28-06, 07:12 AM Technically, you don't deliver the touch attack with the staff - you deliver it with your hand. Most DMs allow a character casting a spell with a staff or wand to use the staff or wand as a surrogate toucher. This is mainly done to work around the "free hand" issue, not to allow improved attack rolls.

So feel free to throw your staff at the bad guys. Assuming it started as a quarterstaff, it's an improvised thrown weapon with range increment 10 ft, -4 to-hit and damage 1d6 20/x2 bludgeoning. As a two-handed weapon, it requires a full-round action to throw. PH pg 113.

That leaves the question of what happens to the touch spell. There are two reasonable alternatives:
(1) it is still on your hand.
(2) it immediately dissipates.
Vanigo
05-28-06, 08:08 PM Technically, you don't deliver the touch attack with the staff - you deliver it with your hand. Most DMs allow a character casting a spell with a staff or wand to use the staff or wand as a surrogate toucher. This is mainly done to work around the "free hand" issue, not to allow improved attack rolls.
I believe you misunderstand the OP. He's using some variant from a Dragon magazine that gives him a special staff instead of a familiar, and one of the powers it evidently has is the ability to deliver touch attacks.
Tsuul
05-28-06, 10:27 PM Questions:
If the staff became animated for some reason, would it then be able to deliver touch attacks as a normal familiar would?

Is the staff somewhat intelligent, like a familiar (can it self distinguish targets ect...)?

If you designate a normal familiar as the spell "toucher" does it have to still be within 5' of you (I don't use familiars ever, so don't know this offhand)?
kelvinaw273
05-28-06, 11:23 PM Technically, the staff never holds the charge. You hold the charge and deliver it through the staff.

Exactly.

If you are not at one end of the staff, then you are not "touching" the recipient of the spell, even if the staff is. It can be helpful as a staff has a certain reach, and it means you can fight with the staff and still deliver touch spells with a blow.

Unfortunately, although a familiar can deliver a touch attack at a distance from you (due to your mystic link), it seems that your staff cannot. That is something you gave up when you gave up your familiar.
Dunkel
05-29-06, 12:11 AM Really, I must admit 90% of this thread's discussion is pretty much moot... issue is not wether and how the staff can be thrown, but wether the staff can deliver a touch spell when it is thrown. In my oppinion, the answer is a resounding NO.

Why? Simple. It is a -touch- spell. It requires Wizard's hand to touch the target. The ability to use the staff to deliver the touch spell simply allows wizard to use the staff as extension of hand - a conduit, as you will, for the magical energies. Notice I said conduit, not battery - The wizard casts a spell which manifests in his hand, races through the staff and affects whatever the other end of staff is touching.

To liken it to a real-life situation, if you plug an extension cord into an outlet, then unplug it, you can't expect the TV to work when you plug the other end into it. There simply needs to be a closed Hand-Staff-Target bridge.
Tsuul
05-29-06, 02:09 AM Dunkel, the OP mentioned the following which may change things a bit from the norm. I don't know, I don't have that dragon mag issue.
This staff is in lieu of a familiar (a Dragon magazine variation).
Dunkel
05-29-06, 02:25 AM Dunkel, the OP mentioned the following which may change things a bit from the norm. I don't know, I don't have that dragon mag issue.

Tsuul,

I understand that. But - although, admittedly, I have no acces to said Dragon - I would guess that Dragon article doesn't say 'Staff becomes your familiar'. It simply allows wizard to trade the mixed blessing of a familiar for a less powerful, but also less dangerous option of using his quarterstaff as spell conduit. After all, compare these two:

Will the Wizard decides to help the fight against the troll, but doesn't like the likely outcome of encounter of his velvet robe with troll's spiked club. Will sends his faithful Wacko the Weasel Familiar to approach the Troll in order to be able to cast Burning Hands through Wacko at the troll. Weasel sneaks upon the troll, flames burst out of weasel's mouth or whatever, burn troll's arse, troll hollers, spins around and swings his club... splat. No more Wacko - and we all know consequences of dead Wacko for Will.

Will the Wizard decides to help the fight against the troll, but doesn't like the likely outcome of encounter of his velvet robe with troll's spiked club. So he steps in, casts Burning Hands from the staff and thus fails to provoke attack of opportunity for using unarmed attack against troll, and hopefully scampers out of reach before troll gets a swing at him.

As I see it, Wizards can cast spells trough the familars because of the near-symbiotic link between the two. A wizard who'd get so attached to his well-polished knobby staff should really see a councillor.

<Edited to add question:>

I'm unsure about one thing... considering the significant length of the staff, could a wizard use it as a reach weapon to deliver a touch spell? It would likely be too unwieldy to deliver a bludgeoning blow over an extended reach, but if we consider it a spell-tipped spear...
kelvinaw273
05-29-06, 02:29 AM That would work, IMO.
smrtgmp
05-29-06, 04:07 AM It is important to respect your DM's calls even if you disagree with him.I'd say that depends on the DM.
Nyaz
05-29-06, 08:04 AM If it's a normal PHB staff, the answer is a definite NO. If it's something new, that's another thing.
Radijs
05-29-06, 08:26 AM Tsuul,
Will the Wizard decides to help the fight against the troll, but doesn't like the likely outcome of encounter of his velvet robe with troll's spiked club. So he steps in, casts Burning Hands from the staff and thus fails to provoke attack of opportunity for using unarmed attack against troll, and hopefully scampers out of reach before troll gets a swing at him.
A spellcaster holding a charge is considered armed. (and depending on the spell very dangerous) Its in the PHB somewhere.

I do have access to said dragon magazine (#338). Its a normal masterwork quarterstaff that replaces the familliar and which gains some special abilites including a magical enhancement bonus.
Warmage-in-Onley
05-29-06, 10:49 AM I wouldn't allow it. But if it is allowed, watch out if you miss! Who's gonna pick that sucker up now?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Count_Rugen 05-27-06, 03:15 PM	Well, ok, not really bitter. I'm just melodramatic. I have a wizard who can deliver touch attacks through his staff. This staff is in lieu of a familiar (a Dragon magazine variation). Question: What happens if I toss my staff at an enemy in order to make contact (thereby delivering a touch attack spell)? Answer: Nothing, according to our current DM. The worst part is, he seems to have the rules on his side for this seemingly illogical ruling. Here's his rationale: In order to make a touch attack via my staff by throwing it, I would need to make a touch attack roll using my ranged attack. Only problem is, a quarterstaff has a no "range." Thrown weapons have a -2 for each range increment and can be thrown up to 5 increments, projectiles can be shot up to 10 increments. No ranged increment means it can be “thrown” or “shot” no distance at all. The Throw Anything feat (in Complete Warrior) gives such weapons a range increment of 10 ft as a thrown weapon. His rationale is sound and seems to adher to the RAW. But it just makes no sense to me. What happens if I throw a familiar, such as a toad? I'm sure toad's have no "range" either, but does that mean I can't throw it? Of course not. Thoughts?
Neratos 05-27-06, 03:43 PM	First you can't throw just anything. Second if you do throw something that is not meant to be thrown with out the throw anything feat it is a -4 attack for improvised weapon. Third the charge in the staff would disapate if it left your hands. Fourth throwing your staff would be a normal ranged attack, not a ranged touch. Fifth you already have a powerful ability in being able to do touch attacks through your staff, try not to push it any further
Vaelan 05-27-06, 04:38 PM	First you can't throw just anything. Second if you do throw something that is not meant to be thrown with out the throw anything feat it is a -4 attack for improvised weapon. I'd like to note that these two statements clearly contradict each other. Third the charge in the staff would disapate if it left your hands. Technically, the staff never holds the charge. You hold the charge and deliver it through the staff. Fourth throwing your staff would be a normal ranged attack, not a ranged touch. Not if you were just trying to touch them. Fifth you already have a powerful ability in being able to do touch attacks through your staff, try not to push it any further That's hardly a powerful ability. Enhancement bonus to hit on touch attacks isn't that great.
Count_Rugen 05-27-06, 08:53 PM	Technically, the staff never holds the charge. You hold the charge and deliver it through the staff.. This is correct. Not if you were just trying to touch them. So by throwing my staff to touch them, it would be qualify as a ranged touch? What would the calculation be? My ranged attack - 4 (for improvised weapon) vs their touch ac? That's hardly a powerful ability. Enhancement bonus to hit on touch attacks isn't that great. There's an enhancement bonus?
Zherog 05-27-06, 08:58 PM	Technically, the staff never holds the charge. You hold the charge and deliver it through the staff. Given this statement, I don't see how the Throw Anything feat would help you. I mean, you'd be able to throw your staff - but the spell wouldn't be in the staff.
Count_Rugen 05-27-06, 09:16 PM	Given this statement, I don't see how the Throw Anything feat would help you. I mean, you'd be able to throw your staff - but the spell wouldn't be in the staff. Forget about the touch attack functionality of the staff. It works remotely. That's not the issue. Nor is the feat. I'm not taking the feat. Moving right along, nothing to see here... The question is: What is my "calculation" for throwing a quarterstaff? EDIT: Thanks for the input all. I found what I was looking for. Pg 113 of the PHB: "It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table 7-5), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll." ... "Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
FatMonkey13 05-27-06, 09:37 PM	1. Your DM made a call. It is important to respect your DM's calls even if you disagree with him. You can make objection and suggestions but remember that there is no power that overrides a DM not even the rules as written or errata. 2. The rules do not let you do it, your DM does not let you do it, and it is not an obvious thing that can be done in real life. There is little to support your view. 3. There is no logical way to assume how a touch spell is transferred through a staff. So I would say your DM's call is fair and on firm ground. In your support... A familiar can have a spell touch transferred through it. You can throw a familiar (though not very well, it is often better to select a flying familiar) You just need to touch the subject Logic... it is magic... it is not logical for magic to exist When I look at the though of sending a touch spell through a staff I think this seem similar to how electrons flow down a wire. When the wire is not connected (not touched) the charge does not travel. So if the wire was thrown and left connection with the battery (what hold the charge [in both cases]) the wire would not transfer the charge to any object it hit as it does not have a charge. But if the wire were connected to the battery and did touch something the charge of the battery would be sent through the wire into the other object. So in a way the DM's calling was logical but he should have told you that that was not going to work as your PC should have known that (unless he has very low wisdom).
Nom 05-28-06, 07:12 AM	Technically, you don't deliver the touch attack with the staff - you deliver it with your hand. Most DMs allow a character casting a spell with a staff or wand to use the staff or wand as a surrogate toucher. This is mainly done to work around the "free hand" issue, not to allow improved attack rolls. So feel free to throw your staff at the bad guys. Assuming it started as a quarterstaff, it's an improvised thrown weapon with range increment 10 ft, -4 to-hit and damage 1d6 20/x2 bludgeoning. As a two-handed weapon, it requires a full-round action to throw. PH pg 113. That leaves the question of what happens to the touch spell. There are two reasonable alternatives: (1) it is still on your hand. (2) it immediately dissipates.
Vanigo 05-28-06, 08:08 PM	Technically, you don't deliver the touch attack with the staff - you deliver it with your hand. Most DMs allow a character casting a spell with a staff or wand to use the staff or wand as a surrogate toucher. This is mainly done to work around the "free hand" issue, not to allow improved attack rolls. I believe you misunderstand the OP. He's using some variant from a Dragon magazine that gives him a special staff instead of a familiar, and one of the powers it evidently has is the ability to deliver touch attacks.
Tsuul 05-28-06, 10:27 PM	Questions: If the staff became animated for some reason, would it then be able to deliver touch attacks as a normal familiar would? Is the staff somewhat intelligent, like a familiar (can it self distinguish targets ect...)? If you designate a normal familiar as the spell "toucher" does it have to still be within 5' of you (I don't use familiars ever, so don't know this offhand)?
kelvinaw273 05-28-06, 11:23 PM	Technically, the staff never holds the charge. You hold the charge and deliver it through the staff. Exactly. If you are not at one end of the staff, then you are not "touching" the recipient of the spell, even if the staff is. It can be helpful as a staff has a certain reach, and it means you can fight with the staff and still deliver touch spells with a blow. Unfortunately, although a familiar can deliver a touch attack at a distance from you (due to your mystic link), it seems that your staff cannot. That is something you gave up when you gave up your familiar.
Dunkel 05-29-06, 12:11 AM	Really, I must admit 90% of this thread's discussion is pretty much moot... issue is not wether and how the staff can be thrown, but wether the staff can deliver a touch spell when it is thrown. In my oppinion, the answer is a resounding NO. Why? Simple. It is a -touch- spell. It requires Wizard's hand to touch the target. The ability to use the staff to deliver the touch spell simply allows wizard to use the staff as extension of hand - a conduit, as you will, for the magical energies. Notice I said conduit, not battery - The wizard casts a spell which manifests in his hand, races through the staff and affects whatever the other end of staff is touching. To liken it to a real-life situation, if you plug an extension cord into an outlet, then unplug it, you can't expect the TV to work when you plug the other end into it. There simply needs to be a closed Hand-Staff-Target bridge.
Tsuul 05-29-06, 02:09 AM	Dunkel, the OP mentioned the following which may change things a bit from the norm. I don't know, I don't have that dragon mag issue. This staff is in lieu of a familiar (a Dragon magazine variation).
Dunkel 05-29-06, 02:25 AM	Dunkel, the OP mentioned the following which may change things a bit from the norm. I don't know, I don't have that dragon mag issue. Tsuul, I understand that. But - although, admittedly, I have no acces to said Dragon - I would guess that Dragon article doesn't say 'Staff becomes your familiar'. It simply allows wizard to trade the mixed blessing of a familiar for a less powerful, but also less dangerous option of using his quarterstaff as spell conduit. After all, compare these two: Will the Wizard decides to help the fight against the troll, but doesn't like the likely outcome of encounter of his velvet robe with troll's spiked club. Will sends his faithful Wacko the Weasel Familiar to approach the Troll in order to be able to cast Burning Hands through Wacko at the troll. Weasel sneaks upon the troll, flames burst out of weasel's mouth or whatever, burn troll's arse, troll hollers, spins around and swings his club... splat. No more Wacko - and we all know consequences of dead Wacko for Will. Will the Wizard decides to help the fight against the troll, but doesn't like the likely outcome of encounter of his velvet robe with troll's spiked club. So he steps in, casts Burning Hands from the staff and thus fails to provoke attack of opportunity for using unarmed attack against troll, and hopefully scampers out of reach before troll gets a swing at him. As I see it, Wizards can cast spells trough the familars because of the near-symbiotic link between the two. A wizard who'd get so attached to his well-polished knobby staff should really see a councillor. <Edited to add question:> I'm unsure about one thing... considering the significant length of the staff, could a wizard use it as a reach weapon to deliver a touch spell? It would likely be too unwieldy to deliver a bludgeoning blow over an extended reach, but if we consider it a spell-tipped spear...
kelvinaw273 05-29-06, 02:29 AM	That would work, IMO.
smrtgmp 05-29-06, 04:07 AM	It is important to respect your DM's calls even if you disagree with him.I'd say that depends on the DM.
Nyaz 05-29-06, 08:04 AM	If it's a normal PHB staff, the answer is a definite NO. If it's something new, that's another thing.
Radijs 05-29-06, 08:26 AM	Tsuul, Will the Wizard decides to help the fight against the troll, but doesn't like the likely outcome of encounter of his velvet robe with troll's spiked club. So he steps in, casts Burning Hands from the staff and thus fails to provoke attack of opportunity for using unarmed attack against troll, and hopefully scampers out of reach before troll gets a swing at him. A spellcaster holding a charge is considered armed. (and depending on the spell very dangerous) Its in the PHB somewhere. I do have access to said dragon magazine (#338). Its a normal masterwork quarterstaff that replaces the familliar and which gains some special abilites including a magical enhancement bonus.
Warmage-in-Onley 05-29-06, 10:49 AM	I wouldn't allow it. But if it is allowed, watch out if you miss! Who's gonna pick that sucker up now?