Post/Author/DateTime	Post
obrysii 06-19-04, 05:42 PM	My PC's recently acquired a flying ship. It, however, cannot provide it's own forward momentum. What do they do? One of them has the fastest flying carpet, the one that allows max carring capacity to be 300ibs. They want to tie the carpet in front of the ship and use it as it's propulsion system. The ship weighs around 50,000 pounds or so.... Would it work in your opinion?
Beamup 06-19-04, 05:49 PM	Absolutely not. The carpet just isn't that strong.
obrysii 06-19-04, 06:16 PM	their arguement is that it will simply be pulling it, and since there is no mechanic for drag in the rules... Regardless, I really don't want to allow this.
AlienFromBeyond 06-19-04, 06:30 PM	Then don't. DM's perogative.
Edward 06-19-04, 06:55 PM	Based on the rules for carrying capacity and push drag the answer is no. Practically I would say you could get it moving but you will accelerate very slowly. And then you ill have a hell of a time stoping. Edward
obrysii 06-20-04, 02:29 PM	The PC's have a very very strong centaur (26 strength, and since is a Large Quadreped, can push/pull/carry 3x normal human) who would get the craft moving forward....get it up to about 300ft ((he's a monk, we're playing 3.0 and he's fifth level, meaning he moves 65ft per round, or 325ft per round duing running due to the run feat))...and so once it's up to speed, they want to hook the carpet up to it to allow it to keep moving.
St Alcohol 06-20-04, 02:40 PM	maybe if you got a whole lot of flying carpets and used them as sails...
Edward 06-20-04, 06:04 PM	Your centaur has a push drag of 13800. because the ship is floating I would double it to 27600. I would expect a ship to way more than that. If it dose not he will not be able to run while pulling it. If he gets it moving you wont need the magic carpet to keep it moving. You will need something to stop it when you are about to crash. You have no steerage and no breaks. You will crash. Edward
obrysii 06-20-04, 09:29 PM	I quadrupled the max drag allowed because x2 would be like on ice. In the air, there is much less friction then on land, so I gave it x4 max drag. So he can drag somewhere around 60000 instead of whatever it normally is (I think). I ruled that he could in fact get it up to speed. The craft is sort of like a stable helicopter. It will remain unmoving and level so long as it's power supply is kept operating. It requires an outside source for forward momentum, however.
Loren Pechtel 06-20-04, 10:54 PM	Originally posted by obrysii My PC's recently acquired a flying ship. It, however, cannot provide it's own forward momentum. What do they do? One of them has the fastest flying carpet, the one that allows max carring capacity to be 300ibs. They want to tie the carpet in front of the ship and use it as it's propulsion system. The ship weighs around 50,000 pounds or so.... Would it work in your opinion? I would have no problem with it. One big caveat, though: The ship is *FAR* beyond the weight limit of the carpet. Since the ship is self-supporting it's not going to go down because of this, but the carpet simply isn't going to have the neccessary motive power. Thus I would reduce the speed by the ratio of the ship's weight to the max weight the carpet can deal with. In other words, the ship is going to *CRAWL*. As for the arguments about max weight meaning you can't move it, I disagree. Given a good bearing surface there is basically no limit as to what you can move--after all, there have been people who moved 747's. It's floating, that's a perfect bearing surface. If you felt like being harsh about it you could say the wind affects it. It's motive speed is so low that it would behave like a balloon.
Edward 06-21-04, 12:37 AM	You still have the problem that it will take quite some time to get it up to speed and then again to stop it. If you try to stop it inappropriately it will spin. I have sailed in boats before. There are 3 ways to make them stop. Back sales (you don’t have any) reverse engines (you don’t have any) and let the water do it for you (there is no water). If the ships magical direction control is not working it will be imposable to steer. If you turn a boat without a good keel or centreboard down it doesn’t change direction. It moves sideways (I can get a slight effect in my dingy) with no water pressure keels and centreboards won’t work. If thy are not very careful the first time they fly it they will crash into a mountain. Edward
Eccerion 06-21-04, 06:13 AM	Facinating topic, one thing I dont understand is: its a ship, a flying ship but a ship nonetheless, why dont the PCs just use sails:confused: Afterall the ones who made the ship wouldnt have just made a flying boat with no means of getting it to go anywhere (unless the PCs got to it before it was finished) As for using a flying carpet to pull it it might work, though you`de need more than a single one, since the rules are quite clear on how much something can push/pull, and the carpet alone simply isnt strong enough to do it.
Zelphi 06-21-04, 09:00 AM	This is weird.. No they can't use the Carpet - it can't move that amount of force. If someone pushes it then it's going to go on it's own momentum mixed with winds. If it's been reduced in weight - which it must be if it's floating... then it must be lighter than air. At which point anyone can try to give it a shove (using mass not weight). It'll move along but it can be stopped or moved by strong winds. It really doesn't make sense as it does. Surely you should be providing a method for it to move and stop - otherwise - why was it made and how did they move it?
Nimrud 06-21-04, 12:14 PM	Originally posted by Eccerion Facinating topic, one thing I dont understand is: its a ship, a flying ship but a ship nonetheless, why dont the PCs just use sails:confused: Good point.
tarkin 06-21-04, 03:29 PM	That's what I was going to say. Flying ships use sails. That is what the masts are for. Next thing they will be trying to figure out how to stop the ship. Perhaps they will want to use a Walls of Force. Because you know they won't consider throwing the anchor over-board. That would be too simple.
Bedevere 06-21-04, 05:14 PM	For Manuevering thrusters, they could use Decanters of Endless Water, set to 'Geyser'. While they may not do much individually, several working together would have an appreciable effect over time, allowing for slow braking, as opposed to rapid breaking :D Gust of Wind type spells would have obvious benefits, as would most weather control spells. Bear in mind that regarding the carpet, it is not trying to lift the ship. I would suggest that it would be able to drag the ship, but divide its normal top speed by the ratio of the ships mass to the carpets maximum capacity. IE, if the ship is ten times more than the carpet can normally carry, then the maximum speed drops by a factor of ten. Having ten carpets sewn into the sails would certainly make for a cool ship, though, and would allow for adequate manueverability, as far as ships are concerned. For when you try to come up with plot for this flying ship though, consider two words. DOGFIGHTING DRAGONS :smirk:
Edward 06-21-04, 05:53 PM	If you just throw an anchor overboard you will spin the ship. Without the water to stabilise it, it will spin like a top. That is unless the magical keel is properly functioning. I had assumed that sails were non functional on this vessel otherwise why do they need to use the carpet. (if mundane sales will work it is probably cheaper to step some masts than get a flying carpet). Edward
obrysii 06-21-04, 08:13 PM	Perhaps I should explain this "ship" better. It's powered by a crystal ((I'm not going into detail. It basically produces a levitation/antigrav effect when charged with electrical energy))....and when it does not have soem power source to have it move forward, it just sits there, a set distance from the ground. True, if the players realized how easy it would be to put sails on it, the carpet wouldn't be needed. What they want to do is simply tie a rope around the carpet, and then launch it forward, under the command of it to fly forward as well as it can....and basically they would have it pulling the ship. The idea of the sails, though...I didn't even think of that ((and the players surely didn't!))! As for what I am going to have for plot...well...most of the time, it's merely a traveling mechinism, though they've added some wartime parts to it. It'll act kind of like the airship in FFX, doesn't do much except provide fast locomotion. But I will surely include some dragons. That's a must, I think. ((they're currently in a desert...so Blue Dragons sound good!)) Thank you everyone for your responses.
TheGogmagog 06-21-04, 08:38 PM	I was hoping to see a high school or College student present some formula for wind drag. (I might see what I can come up with if I get bored in the next day or so) essentially, ignoring wind drag, it would take little force to get it to move up to the speed of the flying carpet. The monk would be able to speed the acceleration time up. But when you introduce wind drag, the flying carpet will only be able to produce about 5 miles per hour pull depending on the size of the ship. A small breeze is going to overpower the force of the flying carpet. Your easiest form of propulsion would be wind and weather spells. Then as said above adding sails to optimize this drag or even gybe it across whatever the prevailing winds are (though without friction this would probably be impossible).
Evandar_TAybara 06-21-04, 09:22 PM	Yes, sails would be your cheapest option by far. If that's too mundane for your group, how about a gnomish steam engine powered propeller, or perhaps even one created like a construct by your party mage? I'm assuming that your group is quite high level if they've got their hands on a flying ship... Evan.
TheGogmagog 06-21-04, 09:32 PM	Ok, I converted some wind drag calculation i found on the web, this is probably fraught with errors but here's what I got. Force (lb) = .002*Area (sq ft)*Wind(mi/hr)^2 So to get a floating 'Secure shelter' 20'x10' to go 10 mi/hr (100ft per minute acording to the movement and distance chart) with no wind. It would take 40 lbs of pull. To get it to 20 mi/hr It would take 160 lbs of pull. To get it to 27 Miles per hour it would take 292 lbs (the 'str' of the carpet), but would be limited to 10 miles per hour by the max speed of the carpet**. Now this might seem fast, but the Secure Shelter would be a really small ship. Call it something like 50'x50' and you will only be moving 7 miles per hour or 70' per round**. Also keep in mind this is relative to prevailing wind conditions. **I am using the Movement and Distance table for converting feet per round to miles per hour, it shows 10 ft / round = to 1 mile / hour. This only affects the equation when you apply the maximum speed per round.
Nimrud 06-21-04, 10:45 PM	Originally posted by Edward [B]If you just throw an anchor overboard you will spin the ship. Without the water to stabilise it, it will spin like a top. That is unless the magical keel is properly functioning. Use 3 or 4 anchors.
[GSV] Kirstar 06-22-04, 03:37 AM	shadows of spell jammer :) first of all NO to thge magic carpet the monk would be able to get the ship up to 5' per round movement and thats the max distance he can move while dragging / pushing ridiculus loads. now some basic considerations that the players would need to be aware of. 1. the centre of gravity must be BELOW the point of lift (the crystal) If it isnt then the ship will roll over. This give you a nice reason to use a large heavy keel at the bottom to stabilise. This keel will also act as a control surface against the wind. 2. The easist way by far to gain motive force is to use sails. Adapt them to a 3d rigging and they can be used for 3d steering. ie up down etc etc. 3. The easist way to stop of course is to use anchors. Now if memory serves the imovable rod can carry 8000lbs. so 7 without extra loading would stop you. Or if you didnt want to use magic items then an anchor from teh centre line of the ship would fix the problem
Nimrud 06-22-04, 03:49 AM	Actually using an immovable rod as an anchor is a great idea. One or two would be enough, since it doesn't have to bear the entire weight of the ship. 8000 lbs of stopping force should be enough to stop the ship after a short while. The idea of the ship spinning reminds me of a scene in a movie (can't remember whether it was Pirates of the Carribbean or Master and Commander) where an anchor was used to swing the ship around to broadside a faster ship. Imagining doing it with this ship in mid air using an immovable rod :D You would have to have some way of retrieving the rod though. Maybe using mage hand to depress the button.
BenTGaidin 06-22-04, 04:45 AM	Retrieval of the immovable rod shouldn't be a problem, actually, since the simplest thing to do would be to install it directly in the ship. Immovable rods don't have to catch anything to hold fast, and so don't need to leave the ship at all. Doing that would also solve worries about the anchor chain breaking; as long as the rod is attached to a solidly-enough constructed part of the ship, it should be just fine. Additionally, if you install multiple rods (for additional stopping power) you could space them along the sides of the ship to allow for sudden pivots like you described. If only the port-side rods are activated, the ship will turn quite rapidly to port. In fact, if you can only get forward propulsion (eg, geysers from decanters of water at the stern) you could use immovable rods for steering, activating the ones in the direction you want to turn, and shutting them off when you're pointing the correct direction. It's not the most efficient system, but it'd work, and it might be simpler than trying to recruit enough sailors to work all the sails. *grins*
Eccerion 06-22-04, 06:05 AM	Next thing they will be trying to figure out how to stop the ship. Perhaps they will want to use a Walls of Force. :heehee :rofl: yeah theres an idea, lets stop the car by ramming it into a brick wall, sure it WILL stop, but its hardly going to to be a plesant stop :D True, if the players realized how easy it would be to put sails on it, the carpet wouldn't be needed. And they seriously didnt? what do you live so far from any large body of water that no one in the group has ever seen a sailboat:confused: My addvise is to have some smartalec pesants come by on the road and after having a long hard laugh at the PCs, suggest they simply get some sails, if they cant buy them, they can use the time honored adventurers method of obtaining stuff....steal it!. Once they get the craft moving they can use the carpet as a scout and/or landing craft, its not supposed to be used as a tugboat after all.
Zelphi 06-22-04, 06:46 AM	Can I ask, why did someone make it without a method of propulsion? Take it back to the shop, get a new one. Cast teleport and the like... Use Gates to travel to the astral plane (if it'll fit) then re-open another gate to the material plane at the point they need it to be and shift it through.
Nimrud 06-22-04, 06:52 AM	Originally posted by BenTGaidin Retrieval of the immovable rod shouldn't be a problem, actually, since the simplest thing to do would be to install it directly in the ship. Immovable rods don't have to catch anything to hold fast, and so don't need to leave the ship at all. Doing that would also solve worries about the anchor chain breaking; as long as the rod is attached to a solidly-enough constructed part of the ship, it should be just fine. Great idea! Now why didn't I think of that? Additionally, if you install multiple rods (for additional stopping power) you could space them along the sides of the ship to allow for sudden pivots like you described. If only the port-side rods are activated, the ship will turn quite rapidly to port. I suddenly have this picture of a catamaran, doing snappy tacks against the wind. :)
[GSV] Kirstar 06-22-04, 08:43 AM	ok.... take 4 rods and align them in a square vertically they would need to freely rotate within the structure with a bearing. activate the starboard 2 to turn starboard, as you swing around the point. unfortunately the centrifugal force would be extreme. so the best thing would be to mount them on long riggers to increase the arc and therefore decrease the force. of course you could just do a search for spelljammer on the web and adapt a basic helm. or maybe make the engines alchemical in nature.
Nimrud 06-22-04, 10:38 AM	Instead of long riggers (which would be subjected to tremendous stress), a catamaran would be better. To further lessen the centrifugal force, you can activate one rod instead of two. The drag would be less and the ship would move through a bigger arc. Or do the equivalent of tapping on the brakes. If you only have 4 rods, I think you should arrange them one starboard, one port, one above and one below, so you have full 3D maneuverability. I'm imagining a quad-amaran. 4 hulls arranged parallel in a square formation, each fitted with an immovable rod, joined by 4 decks, one on each side forming a box-like structure, and supported by internal X-shaped spars, with masts and rigging sprouting from all 4 sides.
obrysii 06-22-04, 11:05 AM	Ok. The ship is part of the plot of my campaign. There is a gigantic gash running through the middle of the world that they had to find a way to cross. In the mythology of my world, there are gigantic, flowing rivers of adamantine high up in the sky, so going over the gash isn't possible. Also, it would take an absurd amount of time to go around the world in the other direction, so it left the only option of going through it. Conviently, they met a rather intelligent group of Winged creatures who happen to know a good deal about this river of adamantine and about the crystals which provide the lift. So they made a ship out of adamantine...the ship powered by the crystals in a fashion so that when they go through the gash ((which does 20 unnamed elemental damage/round to anything in it, and it's 50 miles wide)) the crystals won't be damaged. The crystals are powered by a "spark-stone", a stone that naturally produces a small spark of electrical energy. The crystals, probably through magical means, convert the electrical energy into lift. Originally, it had a propulsion system to propel it forward. When they went through the gash, due to unknown stresses, the spark stones simply burned themselves out, turning to dust. The ship survived without issue, and promptly slammed into the desert sands. They found out that it takes 1 point of electrical 'damage' to power the crystal for about 10 rounds. So they had the Wilder doing his energy stun to do it. However, that means it can only fly for a set time, and that would be reduced significantly if they had to power the propulsion system ((which uses a form of the crystals)). So now they're looking for an alternative, and one wanted to use the NPC's Flying Carpet to pull it forward.
[GSV] Kirstar 06-22-04, 11:23 AM	wouldnt the fly carpet be destroyed by the 20 elemental damage each round ? tbh I thin kyou only logical method based on your senario is chemical propulsion. hack the ship down a little, use the spare adamantite and make booster rockets.. ship will be destroyed when it gets to the other side due to a crash, and you dont have to worry about your players with an adamantite flying ship destroying your countryside.
Krelios 06-22-04, 11:24 AM	Okay, so they want to do that instead of using electricity... Why not just make a Dorje of Enery Stun or something similar, or pull a "Back to the Future" and wait for a lightning strike? Or find a Druid with Call Lightning?
IceFractal 06-22-04, 03:06 PM	I've been waiting for someone to ask something like this, just so I can mention ... the TFD Drive (Tenser's Floating Disc Drive). How it works is very simple, in this case: 1) Reinforce the back and/or other areas of the ship, not necessary if the ship is made of adamantine. 2) Create or purchase wondrous item of Tenser's Floating Disc, in the form of a box with a dial on it. The dial determines the distance between the box and the disc. You might want as many as 4. These are cheap at only 2000 gp each. 3) Mount the TFD boxes, one in the back of the ship (for propulsion), others on the sides and front (for steering and braking) if you have enough. The TFD drive should be inside the ship, say 5' from the edge of it, so that the Disc created by it floats outside the ship normally (10' or so from the box). Mount the boxes in place securely and make sure the ship is reinforced where you put them (again, not a problem with an adamantine ship). 4) To move the ship forward, simply turn the dial on the back TFD box so that the disc follows at a very close distance, say 1'. the disc will attempt to move toward the box, and hit the side of the ship, pushing the ship forward (or breaking the side of the ship, if it isn't strong enough, that's why the reinforcement), which will move the box farther away, thus moving the disc farther, thus pushing the ship more, etc. You can do the same thing with the front TFD box to brake and with the side ones to steer. 5) Since the TFD drive's speed is equal to the base speed of the creature that created it, having expeditious retreat cast on the item creator during the entire process will double the ship's movement speed. Polymorphing the creator temporarily into a form with high speed while they work on the item might work even better. Why it works: Tenser's Floating Disc doesn't specify a maximum amount of force it can apply to move toward the caster (or the wondrous item in this case), thus it can push anything (even a huge flying ship), along as it does so. Note: Yes, this is outrageous rules-lawyering ... so what? Its still funny, and if your DM allows it then its also the solution to your problems.
obrysii 06-22-04, 03:12 PM	Originally posted by [GSV] Kirstar wouldnt the fly carpet be destroyed by the 20 elemental damage each round ? You did not understand. The ship HAS a normal crystal-driven propulsion system. However, during the 'crash through the gash' the power supply to all of the crystals was destoried. They can provide the power for the lift, but not for the directional propulsion.
obrysii 06-22-04, 03:16 PM	Originally posted by Krelios Okay, so they want to do that instead of using electricity... Why not just make a Dorje of Enery Stun or something similar, or pull a "Back to the Future" and wait for a lightning strike? Or find a Druid with Call Lightning? No. They provide the electrical energy for the crystals that provide lift. In order to maximize distance, they are looking for alternatives to powering the crystals that function as thrust.
[GSV] Kirstar 06-23-04, 03:22 AM	yes i get the whole lift thing. based on your senario we have an adamantite ship that was needed to be created so as to bypasss the 20 elemental damage per round. based on that description I pictured an enclosed ship. if it enclosed then the damage is from all sides, thus anything external to the ship takes the damage. if it is a river then why not row home ?
obrysii 06-23-04, 01:28 PM	The river flows above the world, and since it's...liquid adamantine...it's rather thick, and so they can't really use that as a road or actual 'river'...either way, they've made it across the Gash and such and are now looking for a propulsion method.
Pentar 06-23-04, 01:37 PM	Reading this thread, I couldn't help but think of Princess Leia's line in Empire Strikes Back. "Would it help if I got out and pushed?"