Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nanohund 01-22-04, 06:13 PM	Is it just me, or are there other who thinks that the Black Tentacles spell is overpowered? Who on earth can resist the tentacles' grapple? A 7th lvl casting of the spell is equal to +15 grapple modifier, and PC's typically have a modifier below 5. Cast the spell on a medium level party and they are gone. Have I overlooked something?
mercurial67 01-22-04, 06:36 PM	You have to remember the grapple check is BAB+str mod+size mod. Comparatively it is still high, but this is a 4th level spell which all it does is grapple and do 1d6+4 points of damage/round.
adiaven 01-22-04, 06:39 PM	and you wonder why Elminister picked this spell to be immune to...
Nanohund 01-22-04, 06:43 PM	I forgot to add the defender's BAB, only counting Str modifier (PCs usually are medium of size, so I didn't calculate any size bonuses for the defender). But a 6th lvl fighter with Str 16 still only have a +9 modifier - that's about half the tentacle's mod. The damage is considerable - a high probability of 1d8+4 in mininum 7 rounds? Sounds nasty to me
adiaven 01-22-04, 06:53 PM	fyi, 9 is not half of 15... the figher has to roll 6 higher on a D20 than the DM. A 30% chance of breaking free... not as bad as say, hold person on that fighter (usually fighters have low will saves)
mercurial67 01-22-04, 07:15 PM	If you compare a 7th level fighter with a 16 str (same level characters) he gets +10 on his first check & if that fails can make a second check at +5 (you can make multiple grapple checks if your BAB allows it, each at the adjusted BAB). In order to do damage, the tentacles have to make a successfull grapple check (+15 vs +10) then they deal 1d6+4. They also do not deal damage the first round since they must first grapple and then can deal damage with a grapple check on successive rounds. The most damage they can do is 7d6+28 and that damage is not guaranteed. An equal level fighter has two attempts each round to escape. He is grappled, so he looses his dex modifier and takes a -4 to AC but is not helpess. It is a good spell, but compare it to other 4th level spells and it is not overpowering.
Joe Gold 01-22-04, 07:27 PM	Cast Freedom of Movement. The 3.5 version seem to ignore magical and physical restraint.
mercurial67 01-22-04, 07:42 PM	Originally posted by Joe Gold Cast Freedom of Movement. The 3.5 version seem to ignore magical and physical restraint. Good point! So this is a 4th level spell which completely neutralizes Black Tentacles. Since you always succeed on grapple checks to resist grappling, you are never affected by the spell.
Seeker95 01-22-04, 07:52 PM	After reading all the replies, am I safe in concluding that we all agree that 3.5 Evard's black tentacles is not broken?
The Hanged Man 01-22-04, 08:16 PM	I think that's pretty safe.
Dalaeck 01-22-04, 09:31 PM	Even the old wizard thinks 3.5 black tentacles is not broken. I prefer Evard's black tentacles, but the 3.5 incarnation is not broken.
lanilifar 01-22-04, 10:23 PM	Compare to Entangle Black Tentacles has: Shorter Range Smaller area of effect much shorter duration is much more noticeable (and therefore avoidable) can deal damage can be used in non-plant area is 3 levels higher
J. Grenemyer 01-23-04, 02:33 PM	Speaking of Evard's Black Tentacles: There is a write up for the Wizard Evard in the latest issue of Dungeon Magazine. Evard likes to keep a Widened Black Tentacles memorized and is a capable grappler for a Wizard. Deffinately worth a look! J.
Rerednaw 01-23-04, 02:37 PM	Stack the tentacles with a damage over time spell and it gets very interesting. Tentacles versus a player with low grapple mod + acid fog and or cloudkill = ouch. Cheers.
Nanohund 01-23-04, 03:06 PM	Auch! Nasty combos
tarkin 01-23-04, 04:05 PM	I personally prefer the 3.0 guard dog approach to the tentacles. They were the perfect baby sitter, lasting for hours and ignoring Small creatures. I think they are an OK, now. They are basically the 4th level conjurer/ ignore S.R. Attack spell.
Myrrh 01-24-04, 01:30 AM	This is a great spell, but it's only good against creatures without immense physical strength. It's especially good against humanoid spellcasters. 3.5 cleaned up the mechanics, too, so it is no longer a game-stopper requiring a gazillion grapple checks. But try the spell against giants, dragons, and other strong things, and it becomes fairly weak. It's all rock, paper, scissors, my friends. Myrrh
d_nychus 01-24-04, 09:55 AM	Yeah, I remember a high level wizard in 3.0 casting TWO of the bloody things in the same area one time. I think it took one hour to run one ROUND of those things, until I just started doing everything as a group.
J. Grenemyer 01-26-04, 01:03 AM	Hello Everyone, I just cracked open Dragon Magazine #315 (available at your FLGS) and wouldn’t you know, the Sage has addressed questions on (Evard’s) Black Tentacles! Of particular interest to me (and thus presumably to you all) are several key points the Sage made regarding how this spell functions: Disintegrate will not destroy a field of Black Tentacles. Dispel Magic will of course wipe out an entire field of Black Tentacles, and not just one Tentacle per casting. Tentacles sprout from all surfaces within the spread. The spell does not make an initial touch attack as with normal grappling attempts, so it cannot miss! The spell completely ignores invisibility and concealment. Incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled. The Blink spell confers a 50% miss chance vs. the Tentacles. The Sage also mentions that, in a sense, the Black Tentacles substitutes a grapple check for a saving throw. The moral of the story: If you can’t use Dimension Door, Fly or Teleport, cast Enlarge or find other ways to “get big” before moving through a field of Black Tentacles! Have a nice day everyone! :D ps: Also some interesting information on Golems interacting with Magic in 3.5, a clarification for 3.5 Harm, using Staffs and XP Costs for the Wish spell.