Post/Author/DateTime	Post
greymouse 12-17-07, 08:17 PM	Black Tentacles Conjuration (Creation) Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: 20-ft.-radius spread Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell conjures a field of rubbery black tentacles, each 10 feet long. These waving members seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot—including water. They grasp and entwine around creatures that enter the area, holding them fast and crushing them with great strength. Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles. Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19. Thus, its grapple check modifier is equal to your caster level +8. The tentacles are immune to all types of damage. Once the tentacles grapple an opponent, they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the spell ends or the opponent escapes. Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles. Even creatures who aren’t grappling with the tentacles may move through the area at only half normal speed. Material Component: A piece of tentacle from a giant octopus or a giant squid. Okay, here's a question that has come up in a game I'm in. Is this spell able to attack creatures in the air? -The spell describes the tentacles as 10' long. -The area of the spell is described as a 20' spread, but nothing about height in the area. -There are other spells whose area includes a height factor (most fog spells). Obscuring Mist Conjuration (Creation) Level: Air 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Water 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 20 ft. Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius from you, 20 ft. high Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary once created. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target). A moderate wind (11+ mph), such as from a gust of wind spell, disperses the fog in 4 rounds. A strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round. A fireball, flame strike, or similar spell burns away the fog in the explosive or fiery spell’s area. A wall of fire burns away the fog in the area into which it deals damage. This spell does not function underwater -No where in the spell does it say the tentacles have 10' reach. If they can't reach (10') out of the 20' area, then how can they reach up (10') out of the area? I'm inclined to say that anything more than 5ft in the air is safe from the tentacles based on the lack of reach, but I'm curious to hear what others think. Any thoughts or rulings anyone knows of?
solbergb 12-17-07, 09:25 PM	The short answer is no. The longer answer is probably "yes, if a surface is within 10'" So a flier near a wall or ceiling might get nailed, or if your party is creative with things like ottiluke's sphere, wall of force, very tall walls of stone or similar ways of suddenly creating a surface near a flying enemy you can get it to work. As a rule though, flying more than 10' off the ground makes you immune to the spell...unless something happens to cause you to fall...
greymouse 12-18-07, 06:13 PM	I know they can't reach past 10', that really wasn't the question. The question was can they reach into the air at all, do they have 10' reach? What about closer than 10'? From what I've read there's a differing of opinions here. Some say the 10' description is flavor text left over from older versions, others don't.
ravenshrike 12-18-07, 06:36 PM	On air no, but since there is a provision for balancing on clouds, one could argue that you could anchor it in clouds.
mvincent 12-18-07, 06:55 PM	Is this spell able to attack creatures in the air? Yup. In D&D, the default area for a radius spread is in 3-D... i.e. a sphere, or hemisphere when adjacent to the ground. This has been conclusively discussed before (links to threads available on request). If a radius spell departs from this shape, it will say so (example: flame strike (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm)). The description of the tentacles as 10' is actually fluff text carried over from 2nd edition. If this descriptor actually modified the spell's area (20-ft.-radius spread), then it would've been specifically stated.
ArcTan 12-18-07, 07:19 PM	Yup. In D&D, the default area for a radius spread is in 3-D... i.e. a sphere, or hemisphere when adjacent to the ground. This has been conclusively discussed before (links to threads available on request). If a radius spell departs from this shape, it will say so (example: flame strike (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm)). That doesn't matter, because the *effect* of the spell is clearly described: This spell conjures a field of rubbery black tentacles, each 10 feet long. These waving members seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot—including water. So any surface within a 20-ft radius sphere has rubbery black tentacles spring out of it. Yes. This does *not* imply that an entire 20-ft-radius sphere is entirely filled with rubbery black tentacles. The description of the tentacles as 10' is actually fluff text carried over from 2nd edition. If this descriptor actually modified the spell's area (20-ft.-radius spread), then it would've been specifically stated. The spread describes the area that has the spell's effect cast on it -- the area of surfaces that grow rubbery black tentacles. The tentacles *themselves* are not bound by the area descriptor of the spell, since the effect of the spell is to cause tentacles to sprout on surfaces and that's it. The tentacles *themselves* have other rules affecting them, which is that they're 10 feet long (have a 10-ft-reach). So, yes, if there were a platform 20 feet in the air, and I cast Evard's black tentacles under it, then the platform would grow 10-ft tentacles from it, and be able to reach and grapple things *10 feet above the platform*. This is the only way to interpret the "physics" of the spell that makes it make sense, as opposed to an entire 20-ft area being nebulously filled with "tentacularness".
ArcTan 12-18-07, 07:20 PM	On air no, but since there is a provision for balancing on clouds, one could argue that you could anchor it in clouds. They can reach *into* the air *from* the ground on which they're anchored, just as they can reach *down* into water from the surface of the water. (I would argue that the quasi-magical Epic ability to balance on a cloud doesn't actually make clouds a "surface" any more than the Epic ability to travel "through" a wall of force doesn't mean the WoF doesn't block line of effect.)
mvincent 12-18-07, 07:36 PM	That doesn't matter, because the *effect* of the spell is clearly describedTo be fair, that description is holdover text from 1st and 2nd edition, where it had an effect. Similarly, use of the term "each" in regard to the tentacles had an effect in 1st and 2nd edition (i.e. the tentacles were targeted individually is 1st and 2nd ed.), but does not seem to have an effect in 3.5. Still, I believe that you've convinced me: treating the area similarly to say, the entangle spell might be more apropos (i.e. only in 3-D if appropriate surfaces are in 3-D). Thank you for helping change my viewpoint.
solbergb 12-18-07, 08:17 PM	entangle is a pretty good model, although EBT is a bit less limited since it grows from the surface, it's not limited to what is at the surface. Indeed, the devs have referred to EBT as being "entangle with a grapple mechanic" in concept, so they were probably thinking along similar lines. Grease is the same way if sculpted. Grease doesn't fill the area, but would cover any surface that the 20' spread would affect etc.
greymouse 12-18-07, 10:01 PM	The tentacles *themselves* are not bound by the area descriptor of the spell, since the effect of the spell is to cause tentacles to sprout on surfaces and that's it. The tentacles *themselves* have other rules affecting them, which is that they're 10 feet long (have a 10-ft-reach). If they have a 10' reach, how come they can't reach out of the area of the spell then (20' radius)? I don't see anywhere that says 10' reach. If they did have reach then a tentacle on the outer part of the radius could reach out of the spell's area and grab something. Unless you're saying they don't sprout out on the outer edge. I only see them described as 10' long. I think of them more along the lines of a large viper. While it is 10' long and large, it only has 5ft reach. I agree with mvincent, this is a hold over and flavor text. It's not meant to indicate the reach of the spell. So if the tentacles only have 5ft reach, then my question is still, can they attack something 10ft in the air?
ArcTan 12-19-07, 01:23 AM	If they have a 10' reach, how come they can't reach out of the area of the spell then (20' radius)? Does it actually say they can't? They *sprout* within the area, but that doesn't mean they can't reach out of it.
Tedronai 12-19-07, 06:17 AM	Yes, ArcTan, it does, though not directly. "Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check..." Making no reference to any penalty or consequence for any creatures outside the area of the spell. As for what this means for flying creatures, the answer is simple. The tentacles obviously can't exist outside the radius of the spell, and are unable to extend past that threshold.
mvincent 12-19-07, 12:20 PM	Does it actually say they can't? They *sprout* within the area, but that doesn't mean they can't reach out of it.That would seem to go against precedence, and it definitely goes against intent. The 3.5 FAQ says: "The spell uses an opposed grapple check instead of a saving throw to determine if creatures within its spread are affected. Any creature inside the spread might become grappled, as noted in the spell description." and "the spell creates a field of numerous tentacles. These tentacles fill up the spread, and it’s not necessary to determine where any particular tentacle is." and "Evard’s black tentacles attack anyone a) in the spell’s area when the spell is cast, or b) anyone entering the area"
solbergb 12-19-07, 12:36 PM	If they have a 10' reach, how come they can't reach out of the area of the spell then (20' radius)? So if the tentacles only have 5ft reach, then my question is still, can they attack something 10ft in the air? Doesn't say they have 5' reach either. The spell limits where the tentacles can grab. (surfaces within the original 20' spread) Because they are explicitly listed as 10' long, people assume that it means surface+0 to surface+10 is vulnerable to grappling. It's a pretty good assumption. There is no basis for anything inbetween (eg, 5'). You could rule only if touching the surface, but I think that is intuitively sillier than letting 10' long tentacles grab things 10' from the surface. They don't attack outside the area for the same reason they keep crushing enemies even after they stop moving and they don't "re-attack" someone who escapes (see FAQ). The spell isn't "programmed" to do that.
mvincent 12-19-07, 12:48 PM	they don't "re-attack" someone who escapesWell, that is still subject to some interpretation. Sure, the 3.5 FAQ said that strictly by the rules as written; the tentacles don't continue to try to injure you unless you exit and re-enter, but I've got to think that's just a writing glitch/over-literalism (of which there are many in D&D... humorous examples provided if desired). Although I'm normally a pretty die-hard follower of the FAQ, I couldn't imagine a player (sitting in an EBT field) expecting me to follow this particular ruling.
Suropej 12-19-07, 01:36 PM	What it sounds like to me is that the tentacles actually sprout from the juction of four of the 5' squares. There are several spells that work that way (in fact every radius spell is supposed to be focused on one point like that, i think), for instance the Fireball spell can be launched to detonate without impacting anything, as long as the caster denotes a certain point where four 5' tiles meet. Since the tentacles are 10' long that would mean they have a 20' radius from that point, just like it says in the text and that's why they can't extend past the 20' mark. It doesn't say how many tentacles are there, but it's magic anyways so it doesn't matter. If thats the case the only way the tentacles could really grab anything out of the air would be if the flyer went within 5' of the "spawn point" both vertically and horizontally. In the end it's the DM's decision how it's gonna work out.
greymouse 12-19-07, 06:14 PM	Doesn't say they have 5' reach either. According to chart in PHB pg143 things that are large, but long, only have 5ft reach. Like the example I gave above, a large viper in MM. Only when it is large and tall does it get 10' reach. I'd say a 10' tentacle is more along the lines of large and long, like a snake.
ArcTan 12-19-07, 09:16 PM	According to chart in PHB pg143 things that are large, but long, only have 5ft reach. Like the example I gave above, a large viper in MM. Only when it is large and tall does it get 10' reach. I'd say a 10' tentacle is more along the lines of large and long, like a snake. The issue is what space the tentacle occupies, not how far it can "reach" -- "reach" in the sense you mean means having limbs that can stretch beyond the space a creature normally occupies, and a tentacle doesn't have that. However, the tentacle *itself* occupies a 10-foot-long space, thus making it 10 feet long, wide and tall (for game purposes) and that means that if you're hovering 10 feet above a surface with a tentacle, you're within reach of it, even if its reach is "5-foot reach" (just as if you're hovering 10 feet above a Large Viper you're within reach of it, because the Viper *itself* is 10 feet high by the rules).
ArcTan 12-19-07, 09:18 PM	What it sounds like to me is that the tentacles actually sprout from the juction of four of the 5' squares. There are several spells that work that way (in fact every radius spell is supposed to be focused on one point like that, i think), for instance the Fireball spell can be launched to detonate without impacting anything, as long as the caster denotes a certain point where four 5' tiles meet. Since the tentacles are 10' long that would mean they have a 20' radius from that point, just like it says in the text and that's why they can't extend past the 20' mark. It doesn't say how many tentacles are there, but it's magic anyways so it doesn't matter. No, you're mixing it up. That would create a much *smaller* area than is actually described. In order for tentacles all sprouting from a single point to reach out for a 20-foot *radius*, the tentacles would have to be *20* feet long, not 10 feet. (You're thinking of a 20-foot *diameter*.) This can't be how it works -- a single origin point for a bunch of 10-foot tentacles wouldn't fill a 20-foot-radius spread.
jaelis 12-20-07, 03:38 PM	I would say that you need to be both within the area of effect of the spell and within 10 feet of a surface in order to be affected. I picture the tentacles as being long enough to reach outside the AoE, but the magic just doesn't let them do that.
rimble 12-20-07, 04:19 PM	For what it's worth, literally, it seems like anything within that 20' radius area is within 'reach': Area: 20-ft.-radius spread Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles. Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles. That pretty painfully contradicts the description of 10-foot tentacles--though they could probably reach most spaces except those at the 20-foot apex. So cast on an open floor, there'd be a 20-foot radius hemisphere that if you enter you get grappled--regardless of height, or even, apparently, being visible or not. I never really thought of it this way, we do the more simple method of just affecting things on the ground or within that first five-foot square of the ground--no reaching outside the area, no reaching things at 10-foot or higher, and no having to deal with figuring out the hemispheres borders and whether you're in them or not.
mvincent 12-20-07, 04:38 PM	For what it's worth, literally, it seems like anything within that 20' radius area is within 'reach': Area: 20-ft.-radius spread Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles. Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles. That pretty painfully contradicts the description of 10-foot tentaclesHmm. Yup, good solid argument. Sorry to waffle ArcTan, but I'm going to re-side with this argument (but hey, at least now you know that I'm open to other people's viewpoints).
ArcTan 12-20-07, 06:40 PM	This is one of those places where the RAW has built-in implied contradictions, and you have to ask yourself what makes more sense and what the designers were probably actually thinking.
jaelis 12-20-07, 09:25 PM	Do recall the Sage's advice Evard’s black tentacles functions only if there is a surface from which the tentacles can spring. The spell includes “water” as a surface from which the tentacles can grow, but it’s unclear whether this means the surface of a body of water or simply anywhere within a body of water (the Sage leans toward the former option, as it often makes more sense). The spell simply fails to function if cast in open space, whether that’s the void of the Astral Plane or simply the air a hundred feet above the ground. To me, that says that the "surface" business is not just fluffy flavor text. Seems to me that if the spell fails to function at all if there is no surface around, then its effects are limited to near the surface when there is.
solbergb 12-21-07, 05:18 PM	Do recall the Sage's advice To me, that says that the "surface" business is not just fluffy flavor text. Seems to me that if the spell fails to function at all if there is no surface around, then its effects are limited to near the surface when there is. Agreed. you can't aim evards in the air, or in deep water. It is a very important limitation of the spell. The FAQ ruling I don't agree with either but it's an adequate ruling.
Suropej 12-22-07, 01:27 PM	Woah, sorry about that. Arctan was right. I was thinking 20' foot diameter. Jeez, that's a huge area for these things. There's nothing about that being an error or something?
ArcTan 12-23-07, 04:29 AM	I really think treating it like entangle is both the simplest solution and the one that makes the most sensible mental image -- rather than presuming that the tentacles' length arbitrarily lengthens and shortens to exactly fill a 20'-radius sphere.
mvincent 12-23-07, 12:21 PM	I really think treating it like entangle is both the simplest solution and the one that makes the most sensible mental imageI'm certain most of us know how you feel about the subject (and can envision it), but I'm uncertain if that is reciprocated. In order to retain the flavor of the fluff text, I personally envision numerous tentacles 'sprouting' from a 10' radius area, then reaching out to encompass a 20' radius. I'm also ok with having a couple of 15' to 20' tentacles sprouting from the exact center (I mean, having all the tentacles being exactly 10' seems odd to me). But I don't expect everyone else to feel this way. rather than presuming that the tentacles' length arbitrarily lengthens and shortens to exactly fill a 20'-radius sphere.With the entangle (i.e. 10' shag carpeting) method, it seems like the tentacles (especially the ones on the edge) would need to do something similar in order to remain inside the 20' radius. Conversely, I have no trouble envision tentacles lengthening or shortening if they are erupting from an epicenter. Besides, I'm almost positive that the 'erupting from an epicenter' (rather than the "10' shag carpet") method was how it was intended by the authors, and it's the way the spell has always been in previous editions.
ArcTan 12-23-07, 05:51 PM	With the entangle (i.e. 10' shag carpeting) method, it seems like the tentacles (especially the ones on the edge) would need to do something similar in order to remain inside the 20' radius. Or the tentacles can't perceive anything outside that radius because the magic that animates them isn't active there.