Black Tentacles v3.5 question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Black Tentacles v3.5 question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MSW
05-17-05, 05:16 PM Just a quick question on Black Tentacles v3.5.

A group of riders on heavy warhorses approach.
I cast Black Tentacles and the spell's area catches them all in the effect.

Question: do just the horses make the grapple checks vs the Black Tentacles, or do the horses *and* the riders have to make grapple checks vs the Black Tentacles?

The spell says "Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles." So I want to confirm that the riders on horseback would in fact be grappled too.

That's how I think it should work, but I want to make sure.

Thanks!
WindOwl
05-17-05, 05:27 PM That sounds right. The riders should be grappled too.
Jaid
05-17-05, 05:32 PM i would think the riders would also have to make grapple checks.
MSW
05-17-05, 05:43 PM Thanks guys. That is what I figured.

Which brings up question #2.

Assuming warhorses are large creatures, and stronger then most humanoids that ride them... it's likely that the horses could win an opposed grapple check and become free of the Black Tentacles that are grappling them.

Question two: If the warhorse gets free, but it's rider is still grappled, does that automatically unhorse the rider?
Deviston
05-17-05, 05:57 PM yes, the tentacles are ten foot long, easily long enough to grab someone on a horse and let the horse go through

:: END SUBSCRIPTION ::
DungeonMaster
05-17-05, 05:57 PM If the horse does break free give the rider, assuming he's well secured into a military saddle a circumstance bonus to the grapple check against the tentacles. +2 or +4 would be what I would give. The tentacles should have a harding time keeping him grappled if the horse kicks free.
If the horse doesn't break free give the rider a similar penalty.

Giving circumstance bonuses for situations where you're not quite sure success is automatic is good DMing.
Jaid
05-17-05, 06:02 PM well, i dunno about automatically... i would allow some crazy ride check... however, the ride check would be to keep the horse underneath the rider, not for the rider to move away with the horse.

ie the rider may be able to get the horse to stick around (should be really hard... this would *definitely* spook a horse), but he won't be riding away unless they both win the grapple check.
tiercel
05-17-05, 06:09 PM Of course, not many of the horses may get free; black tentacles have an effective grapple check of your caster level +8. Even if you are only 7th level, you are grappling at +15 vs a heavy warhorse's +11 (and if it isn't a heavy warhorse, so much the worse for the horse). For comparison, at minimum caster level the black tentacles are nearly as good at grappling as a grizzly (brown) bear. Ouch.
solbergb
05-17-05, 06:14 PM When I run black tentacles vs mounted people I use a rule of thumb that is fairly consistent in D&D, namely...no matter what you can't be unhorsed from a living mount without beating the ride check.

A mount that gets free when rider does not I will usually allow the rider a ride check (DC = roll mount did to break free) to also get free, pulled free by the mount's action and his leech-like attachment to the mount. It is perhaps softhearted of me, but it seems in the spirit of the rules. (example, a halfling riding a pony is immune to my monk's attempt to trip him (unhorse him) if he has a decent ride skill, for all practical purposes, even if I can trip the pony reliably and trip the halfling automatically, due to size/str differences)

Ride+living mount = very hard to dislodge rider if he's skilled. Way harder than tripping him if he is not mounted. So why might that theory not apply to holding onto him when the mount moves?

I'm making up rules here, but I'm not really contradicting any.
MSW
05-17-05, 06:50 PM Thanks, you've given me a lot to think about.

My first thought was that the horse, if it got free would instinctively try to leave the area.. since it's being attacked by the grappling / crushing tentacles. But I can see where it would be beneficial to allow the character riding the mount a ride check to keep the steed under them.

Which brings up question #3: If the horse breaks free of the grapple, but it's rider forced the mount to remain in the area of effect of the Black Tentacles with a successful ride check, shouldn't the Black Tentacles attempt to restablish the grapple upon the horse next round?

I'm thinking yes, it should, since again the spell states: "Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles."

So if the horse wins the grapple check but doesn't choose to leave it (moving at 1/2 it's speed) then the Black Tentacles should try to attack it again next round. (probably on the caster's initiative).
yonman
05-17-05, 07:05 PM Honestly, if the Horse breaks free and the rider is grappled, the HORSE should make a grapple check as if an outside person were assisting the person being grappled to see if the rider is pulled from the saddle.

After all, it is the horse that is assisting his rider. In this case just follow the rules for assisting grapple.

And Yes, I do believe anything that stays in the area has to make another grapple check.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MSW 05-17-05, 05:16 PM	Just a quick question on Black Tentacles v3.5. A group of riders on heavy warhorses approach. I cast Black Tentacles and the spell's area catches them all in the effect. Question: do just the horses make the grapple checks vs the Black Tentacles, or do the horses and the riders have to make grapple checks vs the Black Tentacles? The spell says "Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles." So I want to confirm that the riders on horseback would in fact be grappled too. That's how I think it should work, but I want to make sure. Thanks!
WindOwl 05-17-05, 05:27 PM	That sounds right. The riders should be grappled too.
Jaid 05-17-05, 05:32 PM	i would think the riders would also have to make grapple checks.
MSW 05-17-05, 05:43 PM	Thanks guys. That is what I figured. Which brings up question #2. Assuming warhorses are large creatures, and stronger then most humanoids that ride them... it's likely that the horses could win an opposed grapple check and become free of the Black Tentacles that are grappling them. Question two: If the warhorse gets free, but it's rider is still grappled, does that automatically unhorse the rider?
Deviston 05-17-05, 05:57 PM	yes, the tentacles are ten foot long, easily long enough to grab someone on a horse and let the horse go through :: END SUBSCRIPTION ::
DungeonMaster 05-17-05, 05:57 PM	If the horse does break free give the rider, assuming he's well secured into a military saddle a circumstance bonus to the grapple check against the tentacles. +2 or +4 would be what I would give. The tentacles should have a harding time keeping him grappled if the horse kicks free. If the horse doesn't break free give the rider a similar penalty. Giving circumstance bonuses for situations where you're not quite sure success is automatic is good DMing.
Jaid 05-17-05, 06:02 PM	well, i dunno about automatically... i would allow some crazy ride check... however, the ride check would be to keep the horse underneath the rider, not for the rider to move away with the horse. ie the rider may be able to get the horse to stick around (should be really hard... this would definitely spook a horse), but he won't be riding away unless they both win the grapple check.
tiercel 05-17-05, 06:09 PM	Of course, not many of the horses may get free; black tentacles have an effective grapple check of your caster level +8. Even if you are only 7th level, you are grappling at +15 vs a heavy warhorse's +11 (and if it isn't a heavy warhorse, so much the worse for the horse). For comparison, at minimum caster level the black tentacles are nearly as good at grappling as a grizzly (brown) bear. Ouch.
solbergb 05-17-05, 06:14 PM	When I run black tentacles vs mounted people I use a rule of thumb that is fairly consistent in D&D, namely...no matter what you can't be unhorsed from a living mount without beating the ride check. A mount that gets free when rider does not I will usually allow the rider a ride check (DC = roll mount did to break free) to also get free, pulled free by the mount's action and his leech-like attachment to the mount. It is perhaps softhearted of me, but it seems in the spirit of the rules. (example, a halfling riding a pony is immune to my monk's attempt to trip him (unhorse him) if he has a decent ride skill, for all practical purposes, even if I can trip the pony reliably and trip the halfling automatically, due to size/str differences) Ride+living mount = very hard to dislodge rider if he's skilled. Way harder than tripping him if he is not mounted. So why might that theory not apply to holding onto him when the mount moves? I'm making up rules here, but I'm not really contradicting any.
MSW 05-17-05, 06:50 PM	Thanks, you've given me a lot to think about. My first thought was that the horse, if it got free would instinctively try to leave the area.. since it's being attacked by the grappling / crushing tentacles. But I can see where it would be beneficial to allow the character riding the mount a ride check to keep the steed under them. Which brings up question #3: If the horse breaks free of the grapple, but it's rider forced the mount to remain in the area of effect of the Black Tentacles with a successful ride check, shouldn't the Black Tentacles attempt to restablish the grapple upon the horse next round? I'm thinking yes, it should, since again the spell states: "Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles." So if the horse wins the grapple check but doesn't choose to leave it (moving at 1/2 it's speed) then the Black Tentacles should try to attack it again next round. (probably on the caster's initiative).
yonman 05-17-05, 07:05 PM	Honestly, if the Horse breaks free and the rider is grappled, the HORSE should make a grapple check as if an outside person were assisting the person being grappled to see if the rider is pulled from the saddle. After all, it is the horse that is assisting his rider. In this case just follow the rules for assisting grapple. And Yes, I do believe anything that stays in the area has to make another grapple check.