Blades of fire from MHB? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blades of fire from MHB? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
johniemi
02-12-04, 12:37 PM I'm trying to balance/houserule the spell "Blades of Fire" (later addressed as "BoF" in this post) from the miniatures handbook. I think the duration of the spell makes it even less useful than a 1st level spell.

Here's a quick recap of blades of fire:
range: personal, up to two melee weapons tha PC is wielding, duration: 1 round, damage: 1d6 bonus fire damage with a successful hit, casting time: instant

So, think about this:

Pro's
-Blades of fire can be cast on up to two weapons which the caster is holding, thus doubling the fire damage to 2d6, this sounds good... but:

Con's
-Very few warmages fight with 2 weapons, thus realistically the damage from BoF is 1d6 when one is using just one melee weapon... an ok bonus damage, but:
-The player must succeed on a normal melee attack roll with his weapon to get the damage, and:
-If the player doesn't hit, the spell is wasted

We all know how the wizards BaB improves and how strong the prototypical wizard is... so what I mean is, wizards/warmages/sorcerers etc. rarely hit with a normal melee attack roll, which the BoF requires to be used succesfully.

It's a level 2 spell, and I'm going to compare it to an another level 2 spell "scorching ray" (SR).

BoF:
-max. damage 2d6 (only when using two melee weapons AND succesfully hitting a melee attack with both of them... very very very unlikely for a warmage), so it would maybe be more realistic to write here just 1d6.
-uses normal melee attack roll and normal opponent AC
-must be used in melee

SR:
-max. damage 4d6
-uses ranged touch attack to hit, and opponents touch AC
-may be used from a long range

And just for kicks, here's a one level lower spell, magic missile:
-damage 1d4+1 (pretty much the same as BoF)
-always hits the target
-improves in damage as character levels up

And the best part here is; Blades of Fire doens't improve... It doesn't matter if you're on level 20, it still does only 1d6 extra damage per weapon!

Now tell me this spell is just simpy underpowered and awfully bad.

My house-rule;

*Duration 1 round / caster level, up to 5 rounds at level 5
*The flames stay on the blade for up to 5 rounds at level 5, regardless whether the weapon has just scored a hit or not
*May be used in only one melee weapon that the player is wielding

Would that be ok? It still requires a true melee attack roll to hit so it shouldn't be overpowered. At level 5, armed with a longsword, I could use 5 true strikes and 1 blades of fire to inflict 5d8 + 5d6 of damage (sword + BoF) IN FIVE ROUNDS, AND IN MELEE, so that shouldn't sound overpowered??

I wouldn't rant, but with the short spell-list of the warmage, there shouldn't be any weak spells. And yes, BoF is a weak spell if taken straight from the book. I have playtested it and it sucks big!

-John
KShaver
02-12-04, 01:13 PM Other bonuses of BoF not listed:

It functions as a quickened spell, which normally would make it take upa a slot 4 levels higher then it normally is. It isn't even level 4, it should do the damage of a -2 (2-4) level spell.

It can do far more than 2d6 damage, and it does improve with level. A character with a 16+bab, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and haste will make 8 attacks a turn. Thats +8d6 damage from a spell that was cast as a free action. Remember also there are some builds that get even more attacks than that (just look at a few dervish builds on the optimization boards).
bjorntfh
02-12-04, 01:17 PM Duration of 1 round/level should be fine. Basically it's a quickened Magic Weapon that gives the ability Flaming instead of +1 enhancement.

I'd give it 1 round/level duration, own melee weapons only, ends if you lose the weapon, and make it a free action to cast.

It's less powerful than similarly leveled spells (lesser flaming orb? 1d6/2 levels divided as you like, ranged touch attack) and lasts longer, but requires the caster to actually get toe to toe which is a HUGE drawback.

Making the wizard get in HtH to use a spell puts him at a severe risk, especially since if you run a TWF wizard... you're stuck in HtH already to get the full benefit of the spell, and your BAB is low enough that you don't hit too often.
bjorntfh
02-12-04, 01:23 PM Kshaver, if you take a TWF build like that it's HIGHLY unlikely that they'll splash for spellcasting that would reduce their BAB and feats gained.

Also, if you state that it gives the Flaming quality to the weapon then it won't stack with Flaming weapons, thus reducing the versitility on those builds.

What level 20 character using a TWF build wouldn't just go with two +1 Speed Elemental Cascade weapons (+5 enhancement worth of 1 each of the 1d6 elemental types) You're spending a lot on them, but heck you've got 9 attacks on a Full Attack, and 3 when making a regular attack (1+2 for two speed weapons) And do 6d6+1+STR+2 (Specialization)+any other mods per hit.

Also, the casting time is deceptive. It's actually got a casting time of 1 action to use it. The free action activates the spell. So what? You need to then make a regular (or full) attack to USE it.
KShaver
02-12-04, 01:33 PM Originally posted by bjorntfh
Kshaver, if you take a TWF build like that it's HIGHLY unlikely that they'll splash for spellcasting that would reduce their BAB and feats gained.

Unless you are a ranger, which iirc the spell is on their spell list.

Edit: Oh and why not? The only concern when multiclassing a few caster levels is that your BAB at 20th will still be at least +16. A swashbuckler 3, fighter 4, wizard 3, dervish 10 would be one wicked character, and would still have a +18 BAB.

Also, the casting time is deceptive. It's actually got a casting time of 1 action to use it. The free action activates the spell. So what? You need to then make a regular (or full) attack to USE it.

Casting time is one swift action. Where swift action = free action (more like a limited free action, but still free). Thus you can easily use the spell and a full attack in the same round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johniemi 02-12-04, 12:37 PM	I'm trying to balance/houserule the spell "Blades of Fire" (later addressed as "BoF" in this post) from the miniatures handbook. I think the duration of the spell makes it even less useful than a 1st level spell. Here's a quick recap of blades of fire: range: personal, up to two melee weapons tha PC is wielding, duration: 1 round, damage: 1d6 bonus fire damage with a successful hit, casting time: instant So, think about this: Pro's -Blades of fire can be cast on up to two weapons which the caster is holding, thus doubling the fire damage to 2d6, this sounds good... but: Con's -Very few warmages fight with 2 weapons, thus realistically the damage from BoF is 1d6 when one is using just one melee weapon... an ok bonus damage, but: -The player must succeed on a normal melee attack roll with his weapon to get the damage, and: -If the player doesn't hit, the spell is wasted We all know how the wizards BaB improves and how strong the prototypical wizard is... so what I mean is, wizards/warmages/sorcerers etc. rarely hit with a normal melee attack roll, which the BoF requires to be used succesfully. It's a level 2 spell, and I'm going to compare it to an another level 2 spell "scorching ray" (SR). BoF: -max. damage 2d6 (only when using two melee weapons AND succesfully hitting a melee attack with both of them... very very very unlikely for a warmage), so it would maybe be more realistic to write here just 1d6. -uses normal melee attack roll and normal opponent AC -must be used in melee SR: -max. damage 4d6 -uses ranged touch attack to hit, and opponents touch AC -may be used from a long range And just for kicks, here's a one level lower spell, magic missile: -damage 1d4+1 (pretty much the same as BoF) -always hits the target -improves in damage as character levels up And the best part here is; Blades of Fire doens't improve... It doesn't matter if you're on level 20, it still does only 1d6 extra damage per weapon! Now tell me this spell is just simpy underpowered and awfully bad. My house-rule; Duration 1 round / caster level, up to 5 rounds at level 5 The flames stay on the blade for up to 5 rounds at level 5, regardless whether the weapon has just scored a hit or not *May be used in only one melee weapon that the player is wielding Would that be ok? It still requires a true melee attack roll to hit so it shouldn't be overpowered. At level 5, armed with a longsword, I could use 5 true strikes and 1 blades of fire to inflict 5d8 + 5d6 of damage (sword + BoF) IN FIVE ROUNDS, AND IN MELEE, so that shouldn't sound overpowered?? I wouldn't rant, but with the short spell-list of the warmage, there shouldn't be any weak spells. And yes, BoF is a weak spell if taken straight from the book. I have playtested it and it sucks big! -John
KShaver 02-12-04, 01:13 PM	Other bonuses of BoF not listed: It functions as a quickened spell, which normally would make it take upa a slot 4 levels higher then it normally is. It isn't even level 4, it should do the damage of a -2 (2-4) level spell. It can do far more than 2d6 damage, and it does improve with level. A character with a 16+bab, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and haste will make 8 attacks a turn. Thats +8d6 damage from a spell that was cast as a free action. Remember also there are some builds that get even more attacks than that (just look at a few dervish builds on the optimization boards).
bjorntfh 02-12-04, 01:17 PM	Duration of 1 round/level should be fine. Basically it's a quickened Magic Weapon that gives the ability Flaming instead of +1 enhancement. I'd give it 1 round/level duration, own melee weapons only, ends if you lose the weapon, and make it a free action to cast. It's less powerful than similarly leveled spells (lesser flaming orb? 1d6/2 levels divided as you like, ranged touch attack) and lasts longer, but requires the caster to actually get toe to toe which is a HUGE drawback. Making the wizard get in HtH to use a spell puts him at a severe risk, especially since if you run a TWF wizard... you're stuck in HtH already to get the full benefit of the spell, and your BAB is low enough that you don't hit too often.
bjorntfh 02-12-04, 01:23 PM	Kshaver, if you take a TWF build like that it's HIGHLY unlikely that they'll splash for spellcasting that would reduce their BAB and feats gained. Also, if you state that it gives the Flaming quality to the weapon then it won't stack with Flaming weapons, thus reducing the versitility on those builds. What level 20 character using a TWF build wouldn't just go with two +1 Speed Elemental Cascade weapons (+5 enhancement worth of 1 each of the 1d6 elemental types) You're spending a lot on them, but heck you've got 9 attacks on a Full Attack, and 3 when making a regular attack (1+2 for two speed weapons) And do 6d6+1+STR+2 (Specialization)+any other mods per hit. Also, the casting time is deceptive. It's actually got a casting time of 1 action to use it. The free action activates the spell. So what? You need to then make a regular (or full) attack to USE it.
KShaver 02-12-04, 01:33 PM	Originally posted by bjorntfh Kshaver, if you take a TWF build like that it's HIGHLY unlikely that they'll splash for spellcasting that would reduce their BAB and feats gained. Unless you are a ranger, which iirc the spell is on their spell list. Edit: Oh and why not? The only concern when multiclassing a few caster levels is that your BAB at 20th will still be at least +16. A swashbuckler 3, fighter 4, wizard 3, dervish 10 would be one wicked character, and would still have a +18 BAB. Also, the casting time is deceptive. It's actually got a casting time of 1 action to use it. The free action activates the spell. So what? You need to then make a regular (or full) attack to USE it. Casting time is one swift action. Where swift action = free action (more like a limited free action, but still free). Thus you can easily use the spell and a full attack in the same round.