Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Finarin Panjoro 12-09-03, 11:29 AM	Does anyone know why WotC made Bless Weapon useless for archers? As I read the spell you can cast it on a single arrow/bolt and then no more benefit is gained from the spell. This basically means a paladin archer build is screwed when fighting evil outsiders. Magic Weapon seems to work the same way, but at least there's a higher level version of the spell which can be used to affect a batch of 50 arrows. There's no Greater Bless Weapon. The 2nd level cleric spell Align Weapon can effect 50 arrows Has anyone house ruled a different use or a higher level version of the spell?
ksbsnowowl 12-09-03, 12:12 PM	Originally posted by Finarin Panjoro Does anyone know why WotC made Bless Weapon useless for archers? Useless?!?!?!? Hardly. It just isn't as useful when only looked at in the standard way of seeing the spell (as a continuous weapon buff). You have to think out-side of the box, and try to figure out a way to make that one shot really count. It auto-crits on any threat against an evil creature, so try to find a way to get an auto threat. *Cough* Hunter's Mercy *cough* Take a look at this. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131826&highlight=%2Aarcher%2A) Now, like I said, it's not as useful in the standard method of using the spell, but in combination with Hunter's Mercy it is probably one of the most broken components of the game.
The Hanged Man 12-09-03, 01:31 PM	So, yes, this is a pretty useless spell for archers, unless you ignore Bless Weapon's restrictions on other magic crit modifiers and use FR silliness. Even then, somebody has to give you a few rounds to get your smackdown working. IMO, this spell was meant to be used for a paladin's holy sword/shield/lance, and it was an attempt to limit the spell to the Lancelot paladin archetype.
ksbsnowowl 12-09-03, 02:38 PM	Originally posted by The Hanged Man this is a pretty useless spell for archers, unless you ignore Bless Weapon's restrictions on other magic crit modifiers and use FR silliness. FR silliness it may be, but that arguement wouldn't work if you were actually playing in FR (however, admittedly, the poster did not state what campaign he plays in.) As to ignoring BW's restriction on crit-modified weapons, shall we look at the actual spell? Bless Weapon Transmutation Level: Pal 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 action Range: Touch Target: Weapon touched Duration: 1 minute/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No All critical rolls against evil foes are automatically successful. The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures and is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus. Also, the weapon is considered blessed, which means it has special effects on certain creatures. Individual arrows or bolts can be transmuted, but affected projectile weapons (such as bows) don't confer the benefit to the projectiles they shoot. This transmutation can't affect any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits.Emphases mine I'll point out that the spell allows you to cast it upon ammunition, which is a distictly different thing than a weapon; there is even a distinct difference between the two cited in the spell itself. Since the spell is affecting the ammunition, not the weapon, and the magic crit multiplier is on the bow, not the arrow, you can still cast it on the arrow and the spell will function even if fired from a weapon that has crit-modifying magic on it. If we wanted to get really rules-lawyerish about it, you could even cast it on an arrow that had crit-modifying magic on it, since the restriction pertains to casting the spell on weapons, and an arrow is ammunition, not a weapon. However, even if all of that was disallowed for some reason, all the other crit modifiers are non-magical class abilities, so the spell would still work with them.
The Hanged Man 12-09-03, 02:53 PM	Originally posted by ksbsnowowl I'll point out that the spell allows you to cast it upon ammunition, which is a distictly different thing than a weapon; there is even a distinct difference between the two cited in the spell itself. Since the spell is affecting the ammunition, not the weapon, and the magic crit multiplier is on the bow, not the arrow, you can still cast it on the arrow and the spell will function even if fired from a weapon that has crit-modifying magic on it. Oooookay. First, bows and arrows don't have separate crit modifiers. Bows firing arrows have crit modifiers, as a unit. Bows used as bows are clubs. There is no meaningful way to say that a bow has a crit modifier, and an arrow has a different one. It's the same modifier, and Bless Weapon doesn't allow stacking of magical crit modifiers. Second, the rest is FR silliness. That's just IMO. Still, Hunter's Mercy is often considered cheesy, and the DS is so overpowered you almost can't make a non-cleric archer build without it. Bless Weapon is helpful to that build, but it's basically the same without it. So what's so cool about the Bless Weapon part of the build? Really, if you never cast Bless Weapon on your DS, the effect would be basically the same. Not exactly compelling argument that Bless Weapon is helpful to archers. A little bit helpful to get a smackdown on an Ancient Red Dragon, but that's about it.
ksbsnowowl 12-09-03, 03:34 PM	Originally posted by The Hanged Man First, bows and arrows don't have separate crit modifiers. Wrong from the 3.0 SRD:Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is Tiny and deals 1d4 points of piercing damage (X2 crit). Since it is not designed for this use, all characters are treated as not proficient with it and thus suffer a -4 penalty on their attack rolls. Arrows do have a seperate Crit modifier. However, when used as ammunition they use the bow's crit modifier. However, the arrow still doesn't have a magical property related to crits. And I will again point out that the spell makes a difference between casting it on the projectile weapon, and the projectile. Still, Hunter's Mercy is often considered cheesy, and the DS is so overpowered you almost can't make a non-cleric archer build without it.HM may be cheesy, but he asked for an example of BW being useful, and I provided one. I wouldn't call DWS broken, it has one powerful ability, crit multipliers. My favorite archer build is a better combatant and doesn't have a single level of cleric or DWS. Bless Weapon is helpful to that build, but it's basically the same without it. So what's so cool about the Bless Weapon part of the build?Since you auto-hit and auto-crit you can pump all of your BAB into power shot (basically power attack with a bow), and all of it gets multiplied on the crit. Really, if you never cast Bless Weapon on your DS, the effect would be basically the same. with Hunter's Mercy it would be vastly different. Not exactly compelling argument that Bless Weapon is helpful to archers. I disagree. Get BW cast on an arrow just before you go in to meet the BBEG(it lasts several minutes), and then you only have to spend one round casting HM; with 3.0 Haste, you could pull it off in the first round of combat.
Finarin Panjoro 12-09-03, 04:26 PM	Thanks for the replys everyone. Let me rephrase: If we limit ourselves to the core books (DMG, PHB, and MM) then why has this spell been nerfed for archers? I don't allow any supplemental material in my campaign. So Hunter's Mercy and Power Shot aren't available. I do not buy the argument that you can use a keen bow with a blessed arrow and have the crit multipliers stack since the spell specifically denies the ability to stack. There may be a way to interpret it that way, but I think its violating the intent of what they wrote. However even if it did work that way, that means you have only a single shot with a 10% chance of scoring a critical (19-20 threat range). The Hanged Man, I think you are right about it being intended for the sword/shield/lance ideal of the paladin. My question is why should they pigeon-hole the paladin that way. Is there a compelling reason to make paladin's less effective at ranged combat? What about an elven paladin? The second level cleric spell Align Weapon affects 50 arrows, but doesn't confer an auto-crit or an effective +1 for purposes of damage reduction. So I think letting the spell affect 50 arrows would be too much. I'm thinking about revising the spell to allow it to bless one arrow per caster level. That at least gives the archer a few good shots from the benefit of the spell.
The Hanged Man 12-09-03, 04:42 PM	I can't think of a good reason to pigeonhole paladins. This still helps ranged combat, BTW, just not with bows or crossbows. A dagger or axe thrower could still take advantage of this spell. I think the main worry with the spell was that if you could enchant bows and arrows, the paladin would be more tempted to use Bless Weapon for allies, instead of for the Paladin. It appears that the intent was that this spell would be used for teh Paladin's weapon. W/ the limit to melee weapons, it's unlikely the Paladin would use it for another. But it would have been easier (scratcht that, better for the paladin) to make it a personal spell, or only effective if the Paladin wielded the weapon. edit - and I think that's a fine houserule. FWIW :)
The Hanged Man 12-09-03, 04:45 PM	Originally posted by ksbsnowowl Since you auto-hit and auto-crit you can pump all of your BAB into power shot (basically power attack with a bow), and all of it gets multiplied on the crit. You miss my point. The "auto-crit" is the cherry on the top, not the heart of your smackdown. Seriously, it doesn't add much. Without Bless Weapon, the smack is basically . . . the same. So what's so cool about it? It's like enlarging to get more base bow damage. You can do it, and it increases damage, but it's not that cool compared to the rest of what the cleric-archer does. As for the rest, if you want to use an arrow to stab somebody with, then yes, Bless Weapon would work. But not if you shoot the arrow at somebody with a bow, and the bow is magically enhanced re crits.
ksbsnowowl 12-09-03, 05:18 PM	Originally posted by The Hanged Man You miss my point. The "auto-crit" is the cherry on the top, not the heart of your smackdown. Seriously, it doesn't add much. Without Bless Weapon, the smack is basically . . . the same. So what's so cool about it? We'll just have to agree to disagree on the ammunition aspect. I think you're missing my point about Bless Weapon, but admittedly, I didn't explain it as fully as I could have. If the archer was only using Hunter's Mercy, then he would auto-hit and auto-threat, but he would still have to roll confirm the critical. Granted, by 20th level he'll have several bonuses to his attack roll other than his BAB, but if he depletes too much of his BAB in order to fuel damage with power shot, then there is a greater and greater chance that he will miss confirming the crit. If the crit confirmation fails, then the smackdown is not really a smackdown; it's just a normal hit, albeit with a reletively large amount of damage (but I doubt topping 200). Bless Weapon allows him to place all of his BAB into powershot without there being a chance to fail the crit, because he no longer needs to roll to confirm the critical.
Finarin Panjoro 12-09-03, 05:37 PM	The Hanged Man, I agree if that was their intent they should have made the spell personal. Then it could benefit ranged weapons just as easily. BTW unless they're planning to throw one dagger or one axe then run and pick it up and throw the same one again I'm not sure how it's any better than using arrows. In both cases a range of personal is better. I'd probably house rule it that way to correct the problem, but the paladin in the party actually does cast it on other PCs melee weapons. He has a holy sword for when he needs to do that sort of work. So I'd be taking away an ability he's already used to aid his teammates.
ksbsnowowl 12-09-03, 05:46 PM	You could just rule that it does work on bows. To me it seems very similar to the DR rules used with arrows in 3.0. In 3.0 the magical enhancement of a bow did not confer to the arrows for purposes of Damage Reduction; you had to have each arrow enchanted to get past the creature's DR. This seems like a similar ruling as to why they wrote BW the way they did. It gets past DR, therefore the actual arrow has to be enchanted. If a bow is enchanted, the bonuses of the spell are not confered. In 3.5 (is that what you're playing? Didn't see you mention anywhere) the magical properties of a bow are confered to arrows for purposes of DR. I wouldn't find it unreasonable to make a similar change with BW.
Dawnsong 12-09-03, 11:09 PM	Although it's a minor point, a bow with a crit effect on it, confers that effect on the arrow, when shot from the bow. Thus the bow crit modifier coming into play. Bless weapon states "This transmutation can't affect any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits" and since a bow crit effects the arrow, the bow's magical crit effect also effects the arrow.
Finarin Panjoro 12-10-03, 10:55 AM	ksbsnowowl, Yes, I'm playing 3.5. That's a decent argument about how it is similar to DR. My problem with just letting it apply to bows is how it compares with Align weapon. AW's only additional benefit is that it effects bows and 50 arrows. Bless Weapon has other benefits (auto-crit, and a virtual +1 for DR purposes). I'd be more likely to create a greater Bless Weapon Spell which could effect multiple weapons or a bow/50 arrows maybe a 2nd level Paladin spell. Dawnsong, If the bow and the arrow both had keen ability they would not stack. The bow's enchantment bonus doesn't stack with the arrow's enhancement bonus. And Bless Weapon specifically states that it doesn't stack with other magical effects related to crits. It seems highly unlikely to me that a blessed arrow is meant to stack with a keen bow. I as a DM would not allow it.
Dawnsong 12-10-03, 06:36 PM	You miss my point. I was agreeing. I was stating the fact that if the bow has a crit effect, it confers that to the arrow, and thus the arrow has a crit effect, and such cannot be targetted by bless weapon, per the spell description.
The Hanged Man 12-10-03, 08:30 PM	Originally posted by Finarin Panjoro The Hanged Man, BTW unless they're planning to throw one dagger or one axe then run and pick it up and throw the same one again I'm not sure how it's any better than using arrows. Returning . . .
Thelon Fairblade 12-11-03, 10:02 AM	Maybe I missed someone else mentioning this, but Bless Weapon *can* be combined with the Improved Critical feat, right? Just not Keen, Vorpal, or similar combinations. Plus, you could use it with BoED's crit-only feats like Resounding Blow (target cowers after a crit) or Quell the Profane (evil target takes STR damage on a crit), etc. Anyway... so what if the spell doesn't help archer-paladins? Don't take it then. Or use it only on your Arrows of X Slaying. Tenser's Transformation isn't the best spell for run-away-wizards, and Righteous Might isn't much good for archer-clerics... there's plenty of precedent for spells not being useful to some builds. Don't fret, don't prepare it, and move on.
Finarin Panjoro 12-11-03, 11:30 AM	Dawnsong, Sorry for the confusion. Hanged Man, Okay that's a start, but returning thrown weapons are not that great and it's difficult to have as many of them as you have attacks at higher levels. With rapid shot a 6th level paladin can throw three axes per round. If each is a +1 returning axe thats over 24,000 gp in value, way more than a 6th level character should have. Plus he can't move during combat because they don't return until the next round and when they do its to the square from which they were thrown not to the thrower. BTW in support of your point about the spell being meant to aid the sword/shield/lance stereotype paladin, I just realized that smite evil also only works with a melee attack. Looks like that's meant to pigeon-hole the paladin too. Thelon, Ouch. The problem is that the spell exists to aid a paladin in fighting his chosen foes, evil outsiders. But it also tends to dictate HOW he must fight his chosen foes. So does smite evil. I know you know how much I hate pigeon-holing from our old ranger thread. If the paladin is an archer/crossbowman/axe thrower he's screwed. DR 10 (possessed by many evil outsiders) just about negates an archer who can't bless his weapon. He's going to get his butt handed to him every time until he get his hands on a holy bow, a minimum +3 weapon. So my question is why pigeon-hole him in this fashion? And I'm pretty sure Bless Weapon does stack with Improved Critical since the spell specifically states that it does not stack with other magical effects related to crits.
Thelon Fairblade 12-11-03, 12:19 PM	You're right, the paladin is *intended* to be a melee warrior. The stereotype honor code doesn't really allow for missile weapon attacks anyway. So it's no big surprise that the powers and spells don't work efficiently (or at all) with ranged weapons. Definately, an axe-throwing or sniper-type paladin is a change from the norm.... but *because* he (or she) is a change from the norm, expect certain options not to be available.
The Hanged Man 12-11-03, 06:06 PM	Originally posted by Finarin Panjoro And I'm pretty sure Bless Weapon does stack with Improved Critical since the spell specifically states that it does not stack with other magical effects related to crits. I would say it definitely stacks! :) Finarin, I'm not a big fan of returning missile weapons either, but in 3.5 they're more worthwhile. You don't need to worry about a big + to get over magic DR anymore, so it's at least a feasible enhancement now. Not that I'd necessarily want to play an axe-hurling paladin, but it might be interesting. Actually, a dagger-throwing halfling paladin might be interesting . . .
Mitchell 12-12-03, 12:24 AM	Back to the original question, the reason may be so that you can't bless the fighters 20 crossbow bolts before charging into the rakshasa convention and earning a gazillion xp for doing nothing. There is a balance, sometimes not perfect, but a balance nonetheless, that they have to consider.
The Hanged Man 12-12-03, 12:36 AM	Did you read the posts in the middle? Why not make it a personal spell, if that's the goal? Why screw an archer paladin?
The Simple Seeker II 12-12-03, 10:20 AM	Fellow Players...last night, a friend of mine pointed out a blessing of the 3rd power that a Paladin can used for range attacks, that can be affective. The Source: Magic of Faerun Book. The Blessing: Undead Bane Weapon of the 3rd tier. Final View: Now...it can be done, in a most effective manner, the Paladin has melee and range offense capabilities. Thank you. Update: This Blessing lasts longer, and also gives the blessed feature also.