Post/Author/DateTime	Post
necrosnoop110 06-28-04, 10:43 PM	1) Does Blindsense see through and otherwise defeat visual elements of [Figment] illusions? Other subschools of illusions? 2) Does Blindsight see through and otherwise defeat visual elements of [Figment] illusions? Other subschools of illusions? It seems like they may because they are “unreal” and should be able to be sensed through with at least Blindsight? I couldn’t find a ruling anywhere, what do think? Thanks, Necrosnoop
lanilifar 06-28-04, 10:59 PM	It would depend on the illusion and the type of blindsight or blindsense. For example, the figment created by mirror image has both visual and auditory elements. Therefore blindsense and blindsight which relies on sound would be foiled (which does not necessarily make sense when you realize that sonar relies on bouncing sound of a solid object, which the mirror image figments are not). Project image creates visual, auditory, and olfactory elements. So it also fools scent. Mirage Arcana has audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements. So it really goes by a spell by spell basis and cannot be easily classified by subtype. Mirror Image is a figment. Project Image is shadow. Mirage Arcana is a glamer.
Bloodtide_the_Red 06-28-04, 11:12 PM	Well.....by the book, no. Illusions are quite complex, as they have to be to fool intelligent creatures. If an illusion can fool a sighted creature, it can fool blindsight/sense. Your senses have no effect on disbelif of an illusion, as it's a saving throw. If you can accept that the illusion creates sometype of visual illusion, then it would also create illusions for other senses. So a creature with blindsense could figure out that that the illusion of whatever had no small or sound to it......but that does not mean they disbelived the illusion. A normal creature(say a human) would notice a illusion that made no noise(If it was something like a orc or a dragon or such). The whole trick about illusions is you think it's real. So if you see something you will make it real in your mind. For the lower level illusions, like silent image, you would simply fail to notice that the creature made no sound or had no smell. For the higher illusions, like Major image...they have sound and smells(and more). It's much the smae with blindsight, you 'fool yourself' into thinking the illusion is real. BT
necrosnoop110 06-28-04, 11:16 PM	From SRD 3.5 Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like. Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly. If a [Figment] or [Glamer] Illusion relies on a visual form for its trickery blindsight should be able to “see” through because it is “unreal” and not really there at all - shouldn’t it? The other schools either effect the mind directly [Pattern] & [Phantasm] or create something that is partially real [Shadow]. But any holographic [Figment] or [Glamer] illusion that requires a visual “substance” in order for the ruse to work should be foiled by blindsight – I think. It says in the Blindsight description that it defeats Blur and Invisibility which are both [Glamer] spell effects. From SRD 3.5 BLINDSIGHT AND BLINDSENSE Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description. Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight. Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does). Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight. Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing. Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum. Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects. If the Illusion tricks the mind directly I can understand that it would work but how would a fake sight fool "Blindsight"?
lanilifar 06-28-04, 11:31 PM	I do agree that just because an illusion does not fool all the senses, that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't fool the creature. For example, a projected image is seen by a creature with tremor sense, but because the image is intangible, the creature does not feel any vibrations. Does that mean the creature automatically realizes it is an illusion? After all it could just be a creature levitating or an incorporeal creature. Blindsight which relies on sensitivity to vibrations or acute scent should automatically penetrate a mirror image and under most conditions will grant auto success for disbelieving a silent or minor image. This is an area where the DM really has to pay attention. There are no quick rules, it varies by spell and by extra-sensory type.
shift244 06-29-04, 02:53 AM	Originally posted by lanilifar For example, a projected image is seen by a creature with tremor sense, but because the image is intangible, the creature does not feel any vibrations. Does that mean the creature automatically realizes it is an illusion? After all it could just be a creature levitating or an incorporeal creature. knowing is not believing. that's why telling friends about an illusion only gives them a saving throw at a bonus. they do not automatically succeed. sitting in a car, you are protected by mirrors. you know that the spray of sand will not hit you, yet you blink.. you do not believe in the protection the glass gives you from the sand, hence your instinctive reaction. if the figment is sensed in anyway by a creature, i believe that it would work on that creature, even if other senses tells it differently. maybe they get a bonus? if the creature is incapable of sensing it.. then it would not know to react against it.
Vanigo 06-29-04, 08:49 PM	The way I see it, blindsight and blindsense don't automatically foil illusions, but they do give the creature a save as soon as the illusion gets within the blind__ radius, and they may or may not get a +4 bonus, depending on the spell used. Of course, I'm not basing this on any particular rule, it's just what seems right to me.
Hypersmurf 06-29-04, 10:21 PM	Originally posted by necrosnoop110 It says in the Blindsight description that it defeats Blur and Invisibility which are both [Glamer] spell effects. Mirror Image is another example - the spell description states that if you can't see it, it has no effect. -Hyp.
lanilifar 06-29-04, 11:01 PM	the spell description states that if you can't see it, it has no effect. Yes. But what happens if the creature sees it with their eyes, but not with their blindsight. Mirror Image is not a good example for this though, as a creature with blindsight would attack the one it can sense both visually and with its blinsight. How would a creature with blindsight (sensitivity to vibrations version) react to a minor image of a person? They can see it and hear it, but can't feel any vibrations. I don't think they should automatically disbelieve, although a bonus would be likely. It could be an incorporeal creature, not an illusion.
Bloodtide_the_Red 06-30-04, 12:14 AM	Can Blindsense/sight see though the lowest of illusions, Minor Image. No, at least no more then a creature with normal senses. Remember, your average minor image will not fool very may people anyway. Spells above that, say Major Image, has sound, smell and thermal effects. That covers most of the senses. When you get up to Mirage Arcana it even has tactile, so that covers echolocation. Some points. 1-This is a case by case basis. You should never say 'blindsight sees through all glamers'. For example, if you make a illusion of the smell of roses(as you could with Major Image)...a blindsighted/sense folk would fall for that, even if they don't see roses. 2-Illusions fool you, no matter how sharp your senses. That's why it's a wisdom based willpower save. You have to notice theas little things your senses tell you. The Wil save is your senses kicking in. A good example would be shadows. Things near lights cast shadows, that's basic. But you have to be sharp in mind as well as senses to find something not right..like seeing the object has no shadow. 3-Fantasy Factor-It's a fantasy world full of magic, and things are not so clear cut. 'It has no smell(or sound) it must be an illusion because there could well be lots of things in the world that have no(or little) smell or no(or little) sound. Example-good peacful celestial type creatures make very little noise...but that does not make them illusions. 4-Reality Factor-There are things normal folks can to to say remove their sent or be very quiet. Hunters have been doing both of theas for thousands of years. Simply being up wind can prevent you from smelling something. Example-you see an orc, but don't smell orc skin, only the mud all around or hear it as it moves...that does not make it an illusion(It's an orc covered in mud moving silently). BT