blindness + darkvision [Archive] - Wizards Community

blindness + darkvision [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Apocolypse_77
09-30-07, 02:30 PM i have a very situational question. Say a character who only had normal sight was blinded by magical or other means, and then after they were blinded they gained darkvision through magic. Would the blindness apply to the darkvision? I would personally say no since the darkvision was added after the blindness and was addded through a magical means. but i was interested in other peoples opinions on the subject.
eternalbee
09-30-07, 02:40 PM I once had a Tai Chi teacher who was blinded for many months, then regained his sight. But during the blindness, he was able to see in his dreams and in astral projection.

As for darkvision, I think this refers to very sensitive eyesight in the physical eyes. Blindness would then cancel this special ability.

But if the character had special vision from a spell like, seeing things as they truly are, or seeing invisible creatures pass by, then yes, the blindness may not effect that, but in my opinion, it depends on the player.
A monk can develop these powers too to overcome physical limitations, but I think a wizard does not have that kind of training. A wizard is more book learned, and deals with imagination and beliefs. A monk deals with mystical powers of the body.
so I think that a monk could overcome blindness but a normal wizard could not.
Apocolypse_77
09-30-07, 02:57 PM well this particular insident is happening to a warlock, who directly after becoming blind took the "see the unseen" invocation which is a spell-like ability which grants the ability to see invisible things and gives 60 ft darkvision.
Seeker95
09-30-07, 05:41 PM Darkvision means that you can see in the dark.
Blinded means you can't see.

If a half-orc is blinded, it is blind, even in the dark.
If a blind creature is granted darkvision, it is still blind.
tyrecian
10-01-07, 12:02 AM aye, blind cannot see, and darkvision is still vision. Blindness is particularly nasty for a warlock, who relies upon targetting. Ouch, find a priest and get that cured. Remove Blindness should be fairly cheap.
TheRealOrion
10-01-07, 02:41 AM Darkvision is implicitly a biological thing. If you can't see colours with it then the implication is that someone with darkvision has super-sensitive rods in their eyes, and comparably non-sensitive cones. That's why colours fade in the dark. Therefore, I'd say that any magic effect that grants darkvision is not granting a magic ability to see, but altering your eyes by magic to be more like those of, say, a dwarf. So, as has been said, blind is blind.

Now, there are is, however, an interesting possibility of someone who can't see at all in the light but can see in black-and-white when the lights go out. At least three different superheroes have this precise limitation, a severe form of day-blindness. That could be very interesting to play.
Apocolypse_77
10-01-07, 01:12 PM Darkvision is implicitly a biological thing. If you can't see colours with it then the implication is that someone with darkvision has super-sensitive rods in their eyes, and comparably non-sensitive cones. That's why colours fade in the dark. Therefore, I'd say that any magic effect that grants darkvision is not granting a magic ability to see, but altering your eyes by magic to be more like those of, say, a dwarf. So, as has been said, blind is blind.

You see i completely disagree, no animals eyes no matter how sensitive can see in perfect darkness, which things with darkvision can. Super-sensitive rods would still require trace amounts of light to see, while things with darkvision can see in perfect darkness. so dark vision is not using light and therefor should not require working eyes to use. This is why i believe darkvision aquired after a blindness would still work.

On a side note would something without eyes be able to aquire darkvision?
Seeker95
10-01-07, 03:16 PM This is why i believe darkvision aquired after a blindness would still work.It would appear your opinion on this question differs with that of the majority. It won't fly in my game, but I would be glad to see what else I could get away with in your game.
Nadaka
10-01-07, 07:38 PM Darkvision may not use light as we know it, but it does use the eyes. A blinded character can not use darkvision. One with blindsight however, can "see".
Horseshoe_Hermit
10-01-07, 07:54 PM Darkvision is obviously magical. Darkvision, even though it can't work by "improving" your eyes in any way, we know it must work with the eyes. We cannot imagine it making sense to have an eyeless creature with darkvision.
The answer to this question depends on what you think Blindness does.

If you still subscribe to it being a transmutation, then presumably you figure it to be a changing of your eyes - to something that doesn't work. It changes your eyes so that they cannot relay the scene before you, to your "mind". It's not even a very fine transmutation - just disturb one element of the eye, and it just physically won't work.
Saying Darkvision does or does not work in this case would be for balance. Maybe the transmutation only leaves the eye with the inability to work in the normal way... but data from Darkvision can still get through your eye to your mind. Maybe you can rule that Blindness and Darkvision, both changing your sight, have the one most recently applied, work - the transmutation screws up your eye, but the darkvision does whatever it takes to give you darkvision. Or maybe, you just say "Your eye is screwed up. Darkvision needs a functioning eye. You lose."
DM's call. Look out for game balance, though.

If Blindness is a necromancy in your book, then we figure that you are crippling or decaying the matter that makes up your eye. Blindness, here, is removing your sight, the same way that Ray of Enfeeblement takes away your strength. Darkvision surely can't work here, for you are as good as though you had no eyes. Since it is necromancy, surely it does not make sense to have the Darkvision get around this. Necromancy fouls up your eye... necromantic magic would surely prevent the darkvision from working around the problem, just as a defiled patch of land will never grow new life.

So in this case, Blindness would suppress the Darkvision effect for its duration. If the blindness is removed, the Darkvision will apply if its duration hasn't run out.

If Blindness is enchantment in your book, then obviously you have it framed as some kind of compulsion of the subject, to believe that he is sightless; or maybe, you have messed around in his mind, and made it "lose" the vsiual feed - as though you unplugged some wires.
Darkvision couldn't work here. The enchantment is behind everything, messing with the mind. The Darkvision would be giving the subject darkvision, but still he would believe he is sightless.

If blindness is an illusion in your book... you really should make it an enchantment. Blindness as an illusion can't be a figment or glamer because it is not a change in sensory qualities, but in the very senses of an observer himself! It can't be a shadow, obviously. It isn't a pattern, because a pattern is a sensory experience (almost assuredly visual) which, by the subtlety of its construction, has a peculiar effect on intelligent observers; i.e., anything which causes loss of attention, disorientation, foolish captivation, dizziness, that sort of thing.
Left for last is phantasm. A phantasm is the creation of an impression in the mind. Blindness is not an impression - it is the absence of all impression (of the visual kind).

If blindness is an evocation, divination, or abjuration in your system... you're freakin' crazy.
If Blindness is a conjuration, damnit stop feeding the big kid.
Empiro
10-01-07, 08:03 PM Generally speaking, I wouldn't go into all this analysis on what Blindness and Darkvision actually *are*, unless the RAW reading is unclear, contradictory, or simply makes no sense.

By RAW, creatures with Darkvision can still be Blinded, the spell Darkvision grants Darkvision, ergo, a Blind creature with Darkvision cast upon him is still Blind. This reading is clear, consistent, and makes no less sense than most of the other stuff in the game.
yrogerg
10-01-07, 08:06 PM You see i completely disagree, no animals eyes no matter how sensitive can see in perfect darkness, which things with darkvision can. Super-sensitive rods would still require trace amounts of light to see, while things with darkvision can see in perfect darkness. so dark vision is not using light and therefor should not require working eyes to use. This is why i believe darkvision aquired after a blindness would still work.

Isn't that what Blindsense/Blindsight are for? Using one or more nonvisual senses to perceive the environment, regardless of visual conditions?

I mean, every creature with nautral Darkvision is sighted. That should be a clue to what Darkvision does.
ArcTan
10-01-07, 11:57 PM Darkvision is not the same thing as Blindsight. If you let Darkvision do this, then Darkvision effectively replaces Blindsight. Which is clearly not the intent.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Apocolypse_77 09-30-07, 02:30 PM	i have a very situational question. Say a character who only had normal sight was blinded by magical or other means, and then after they were blinded they gained darkvision through magic. Would the blindness apply to the darkvision? I would personally say no since the darkvision was added after the blindness and was addded through a magical means. but i was interested in other peoples opinions on the subject.
eternalbee 09-30-07, 02:40 PM	I once had a Tai Chi teacher who was blinded for many months, then regained his sight. But during the blindness, he was able to see in his dreams and in astral projection. As for darkvision, I think this refers to very sensitive eyesight in the physical eyes. Blindness would then cancel this special ability. But if the character had special vision from a spell like, seeing things as they truly are, or seeing invisible creatures pass by, then yes, the blindness may not effect that, but in my opinion, it depends on the player. A monk can develop these powers too to overcome physical limitations, but I think a wizard does not have that kind of training. A wizard is more book learned, and deals with imagination and beliefs. A monk deals with mystical powers of the body. so I think that a monk could overcome blindness but a normal wizard could not.
Apocolypse_77 09-30-07, 02:57 PM	well this particular insident is happening to a warlock, who directly after becoming blind took the "see the unseen" invocation which is a spell-like ability which grants the ability to see invisible things and gives 60 ft darkvision.
Seeker95 09-30-07, 05:41 PM	Darkvision means that you can see in the dark. Blinded means you can't see. If a half-orc is blinded, it is blind, even in the dark. If a blind creature is granted darkvision, it is still blind.
tyrecian 10-01-07, 12:02 AM	aye, blind cannot see, and darkvision is still vision. Blindness is particularly nasty for a warlock, who relies upon targetting. Ouch, find a priest and get that cured. Remove Blindness should be fairly cheap.
TheRealOrion 10-01-07, 02:41 AM	Darkvision is implicitly a biological thing. If you can't see colours with it then the implication is that someone with darkvision has super-sensitive rods in their eyes, and comparably non-sensitive cones. That's why colours fade in the dark. Therefore, I'd say that any magic effect that grants darkvision is not granting a magic ability to see, but altering your eyes by magic to be more like those of, say, a dwarf. So, as has been said, blind is blind. Now, there are is, however, an interesting possibility of someone who can't see at all in the light but can see in black-and-white when the lights go out. At least three different superheroes have this precise limitation, a severe form of day-blindness. That could be very interesting to play.
Apocolypse_77 10-01-07, 01:12 PM	Darkvision is implicitly a biological thing. If you can't see colours with it then the implication is that someone with darkvision has super-sensitive rods in their eyes, and comparably non-sensitive cones. That's why colours fade in the dark. Therefore, I'd say that any magic effect that grants darkvision is not granting a magic ability to see, but altering your eyes by magic to be more like those of, say, a dwarf. So, as has been said, blind is blind. You see i completely disagree, no animals eyes no matter how sensitive can see in perfect darkness, which things with darkvision can. Super-sensitive rods would still require trace amounts of light to see, while things with darkvision can see in perfect darkness. so dark vision is not using light and therefor should not require working eyes to use. This is why i believe darkvision aquired after a blindness would still work. On a side note would something without eyes be able to aquire darkvision?
Seeker95 10-01-07, 03:16 PM	This is why i believe darkvision aquired after a blindness would still work.It would appear your opinion on this question differs with that of the majority. It won't fly in my game, but I would be glad to see what else I could get away with in your game.
Nadaka 10-01-07, 07:38 PM	Darkvision may not use light as we know it, but it does use the eyes. A blinded character can not use darkvision. One with blindsight however, can "see".
Horseshoe_Hermit 10-01-07, 07:54 PM	Darkvision is obviously magical. Darkvision, even though it can't work by "improving" your eyes in any way, we know it must work with the eyes. We cannot imagine it making sense to have an eyeless creature with darkvision. The answer to this question depends on what you think Blindness does. If you still subscribe to it being a transmutation, then presumably you figure it to be a changing of your eyes - to something that doesn't work. It changes your eyes so that they cannot relay the scene before you, to your "mind". It's not even a very fine transmutation - just disturb one element of the eye, and it just physically won't work. Saying Darkvision does or does not work in this case would be for balance. Maybe the transmutation only leaves the eye with the inability to work in the normal way... but data from Darkvision can still get through your eye to your mind. Maybe you can rule that Blindness and Darkvision, both changing your sight, have the one most recently applied, work - the transmutation screws up your eye, but the darkvision does whatever it takes to give you darkvision. Or maybe, you just say "Your eye is screwed up. Darkvision needs a functioning eye. You lose." DM's call. Look out for game balance, though. If Blindness is a necromancy in your book, then we figure that you are crippling or decaying the matter that makes up your eye. Blindness, here, is removing your sight, the same way that Ray of Enfeeblement takes away your strength. Darkvision surely can't work here, for you are as good as though you had no eyes. Since it is necromancy, surely it does not make sense to have the Darkvision get around this. Necromancy fouls up your eye... necromantic magic would surely prevent the darkvision from working around the problem, just as a defiled patch of land will never grow new life. So in this case, Blindness would suppress the Darkvision effect for its duration. If the blindness is removed, the Darkvision will apply if its duration hasn't run out. If Blindness is enchantment in your book, then obviously you have it framed as some kind of compulsion of the subject, to believe that he is sightless; or maybe, you have messed around in his mind, and made it "lose" the vsiual feed - as though you unplugged some wires. Darkvision couldn't work here. The enchantment is behind everything, messing with the mind. The Darkvision would be giving the subject darkvision, but still he would believe he is sightless. If blindness is an illusion in your book... you really should make it an enchantment. Blindness as an illusion can't be a figment or glamer because it is not a change in sensory qualities, but in the very senses of an observer himself! It can't be a shadow, obviously. It isn't a pattern, because a pattern is a sensory experience (almost assuredly visual) which, by the subtlety of its construction, has a peculiar effect on intelligent observers; i.e., anything which causes loss of attention, disorientation, foolish captivation, dizziness, that sort of thing. Left for last is phantasm. A phantasm is the creation of an impression in the mind. Blindness is not an impression - it is the absence of all impression (of the visual kind). If blindness is an evocation, divination, or abjuration in your system... you're freakin' crazy. If Blindness is a conjuration, damnit stop feeding the big kid.
Empiro 10-01-07, 08:03 PM	Generally speaking, I wouldn't go into all this analysis on what Blindness and Darkvision actually are, unless the RAW reading is unclear, contradictory, or simply makes no sense. By RAW, creatures with Darkvision can still be Blinded, the spell Darkvision grants Darkvision, ergo, a Blind creature with Darkvision cast upon him is still Blind. This reading is clear, consistent, and makes no less sense than most of the other stuff in the game.
yrogerg 10-01-07, 08:06 PM	You see i completely disagree, no animals eyes no matter how sensitive can see in perfect darkness, which things with darkvision can. Super-sensitive rods would still require trace amounts of light to see, while things with darkvision can see in perfect darkness. so dark vision is not using light and therefor should not require working eyes to use. This is why i believe darkvision aquired after a blindness would still work. Isn't that what Blindsense/Blindsight are for? Using one or more nonvisual senses to perceive the environment, regardless of visual conditions? I mean, every creature with nautral Darkvision is sighted. That should be a clue to what Darkvision does.
ArcTan 10-01-07, 11:57 PM	Darkvision is not the same thing as Blindsight. If you let Darkvision do this, then Darkvision effectively replaces Blindsight. Which is clearly not the intent.