blindsight & meld into stone [Archive] - Wizards Community

blindsight & meld into stone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tackleberry
10-10-06, 05:58 AM Hello everyone,

I have a situation in my group currently I am hoping you may be able to help with:
If a creature has blindsight ability (p.290DMG) (not blindsense) whilst under the influence of a meld into stone spell, can they use the blindsight ability to target creatures outside of the the meld into stone with spells?

Thank you for your time.
Seeker95
10-10-06, 09:22 AM I would say yes. Blindsight uses some other sense to "see". When melded, you can still hear.
tarkin
10-10-06, 10:50 AM I would agree.

The following two lines are what convinced me:

While in the stone, you remain in contact, however tenuous, with the face of the stone through which you melded...Nothing that goes on outside the stone can be seen, but you can still hear what happens around you.

You are in contact with the surface and you can hear. To me that tells me that the stone is not thick enough to block blindsight.
Thiez
10-10-06, 05:41 PM I guess it all depends on what is the 'cause' of your blindsight. If you use some kind of ultrasound to 'see' the world around you, like a bat, I doubt you'd be able to make those noises while you're a rock. Same for super-human sense of spell. The only forms of blindsight that might work are those based on some kind of supernatural ability and those that rely on hearing, but not creating, sound.

One might grant creatures who gain blindsight by virtue of feeling their environment tremorsense instead.
tackleberry
10-10-06, 07:55 PM I have been mulling over this most of the day and have come to the following: spells require "line of effect" as per PHB (dont know what page but just before the spell descriptions in the magic section) and was not sure that being melded into stone would grant you 'line of effect'.

after all, the contact with the surface is quote "tenuous".
even though meld into stone and blindsight allows you to be aware of those outside the stone, being actually in the stone would negate the casters 'line of effect' the same as if the caster was behind a wall.
any thoughts?
PhaedrusXY
10-10-06, 09:23 PM The Blindsight spell is affecting the caster, not the people he is seeing with it. It grants him a new sensory method. He does not need line of effect with his targets to use it. However, you might argue that solid objects would block it, and I think this might even be stated in the description for Blindsight.

So while I am not sure whether this combo should work or not, I do not think that not having Line of Effect is a good argument against it. I also think that Earth Elementals should have either Tremorsense or Blindsight, and that it should definitely allow them to see through stone. This is just a personal problem I have with their stats, though.
tackleberry
10-11-06, 02:47 PM thankyou all for your input, but phaedrus as per my original post, the druid wants to use blind sight whilst in meld into stone to use a targeted spell on someone outside.
1st round: meld into stone - fine
2nd round: blindsight while in the stone - fine
3rd round: fireward (motw) cast on the area outside whilst in the stone with blindsight - ummmm
PhaedrusXY
10-11-06, 03:03 PM Oh... umm... hrm.... What a strange situation. I don't know. I guess Line of Effect would be blocked.
tarkin
10-11-06, 03:22 PM As meld into stone says you can not see there is SOME stone between him and the target.

For this reason, Line of Effect should stop him from casting most spells on other creatures.

The exception would mostly be teleportation based spells, as those allow you to ignore line of effect.

Hm. That would mean you could do a balefull transposition on somone.

I personally would rule that such a thing was an attempt to teleport a person into stone, with the same results as Dim Door (1d6 damage + random location in 100 ft)
User5127
10-11-06, 11:07 PM Blindsight may let you "see", but you still need to have line of sight with the target in question. now since you are melded completly into the stone then drawing that direct line from you to your target wouldn't work because even that "tenuous" layer of stone is sooo thin, it still is an obstacle between you and your target. so you can't target them. but you can target yourself since you don't need line of sight for personal effects. wich is why you can cast blindsight on yourself while melded, but not cast fireward on the area outside or even hit a random square with a fireball. line of sight is blocked.

so no, you can't target them, line of sight is blocked.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tackleberry 10-10-06, 05:58 AM	Hello everyone, I have a situation in my group currently I am hoping you may be able to help with: If a creature has blindsight ability (p.290DMG) (not blindsense) whilst under the influence of a meld into stone spell, can they use the blindsight ability to target creatures outside of the the meld into stone with spells? Thank you for your time.
Seeker95 10-10-06, 09:22 AM	I would say yes. Blindsight uses some other sense to "see". When melded, you can still hear.
tarkin 10-10-06, 10:50 AM	I would agree. The following two lines are what convinced me: While in the stone, you remain in contact, however tenuous, with the face of the stone through which you melded...Nothing that goes on outside the stone can be seen, but you can still hear what happens around you. You are in contact with the surface and you can hear. To me that tells me that the stone is not thick enough to block blindsight.
Thiez 10-10-06, 05:41 PM	I guess it all depends on what is the 'cause' of your blindsight. If you use some kind of ultrasound to 'see' the world around you, like a bat, I doubt you'd be able to make those noises while you're a rock. Same for super-human sense of spell. The only forms of blindsight that might work are those based on some kind of supernatural ability and those that rely on hearing, but not creating, sound. One might grant creatures who gain blindsight by virtue of feeling their environment tremorsense instead.
tackleberry 10-10-06, 07:55 PM	I have been mulling over this most of the day and have come to the following: spells require "line of effect" as per PHB (dont know what page but just before the spell descriptions in the magic section) and was not sure that being melded into stone would grant you 'line of effect'. after all, the contact with the surface is quote "tenuous". even though meld into stone and blindsight allows you to be aware of those outside the stone, being actually in the stone would negate the casters 'line of effect' the same as if the caster was behind a wall. any thoughts?
PhaedrusXY 10-10-06, 09:23 PM	The Blindsight spell is affecting the caster, not the people he is seeing with it. It grants him a new sensory method. He does not need line of effect with his targets to use it. However, you might argue that solid objects would block it, and I think this might even be stated in the description for Blindsight. So while I am not sure whether this combo should work or not, I do not think that not having Line of Effect is a good argument against it. I also think that Earth Elementals should have either Tremorsense or Blindsight, and that it should definitely allow them to see through stone. This is just a personal problem I have with their stats, though.
tackleberry 10-11-06, 02:47 PM	thankyou all for your input, but phaedrus as per my original post, the druid wants to use blind sight whilst in meld into stone to use a targeted spell on someone outside. 1st round: meld into stone - fine 2nd round: blindsight while in the stone - fine 3rd round: fireward (motw) cast on the area outside whilst in the stone with blindsight - ummmm
PhaedrusXY 10-11-06, 03:03 PM	Oh... umm... hrm.... What a strange situation. I don't know. I guess Line of Effect would be blocked.
tarkin 10-11-06, 03:22 PM	As meld into stone says you can not see there is SOME stone between him and the target. For this reason, Line of Effect should stop him from casting most spells on other creatures. The exception would mostly be teleportation based spells, as those allow you to ignore line of effect. Hm. That would mean you could do a balefull transposition on somone. I personally would rule that such a thing was an attempt to teleport a person into stone, with the same results as Dim Door (1d6 damage + random location in 100 ft)
User5127 10-11-06, 11:07 PM	Blindsight may let you "see", but you still need to have line of sight with the target in question. now since you are melded completly into the stone then drawing that direct line from you to your target wouldn't work because even that "tenuous" layer of stone is sooo thin, it still is an obstacle between you and your target. so you can't target them. but you can target yourself since you don't need line of sight for personal effects. wich is why you can cast blindsight on yourself while melded, but not cast fireward on the area outside or even hit a random square with a fireball. line of sight is blocked. so no, you can't target them, line of sight is blocked.