Blindsight Sleep Deprivation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blindsight Sleep Deprivation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Majick
09-08-07, 01:04 AM If you had a continually acting Blindsight ability (always active) would you ever be able to sleep?

I mean, wouldn't you constantly be seeing stuff even with your eyes closed?
Tedronai
09-08-07, 01:23 AM One can be trained to sleep with their eyes open.
I imagine that any creature naturally posessing such an ability would have such capability inherent in it's form. If a creature gained the ability through some other means, then it would be reasonably to assume that they might suffer a few sleepless nights as they grew accustomed to the change, after which they would adapt and be able to function normally.
concerro
09-08-07, 01:28 AM No. It only works when you are awake, and blindsight does not allow you to see as you do with your eyes. You just know where the monster is. Some monsters have blindsight that works off sound so if they are in a silenced area their blindsight does not work. I think grimlocks use sound for theirs(as an exmaple)
Tedronai
09-08-07, 01:36 AM Is there any reference or logical basis of 'It only works when you are awake'?

While certainly some real-life examples of creatures that could be described as having 'blindsight' or 'blindsense' use an active process to drive that ability (a bat for instance must send out pulses of sound which then reflect back off of the objects in front of them). Many D&D monsters, however, use passive abilities, such as detecting slight vibrations caused by motion, electrical field distortions created by creatures, or simply a incredibly heightened state of all other senses combined - most of which cannot be 'turned off' through conscious effort, let alone neglect to be turned on, which is what would be required for consciousness to be a requirement.
Lafing Cat
09-08-07, 01:40 AM Is there any reference or logical basis of 'It only works when you are awake'?

While certainly some real-life examples of creatures that could be described as having 'blindsight' or 'blindsense' use an active process to drive that ability (a bat for instance must send out pulses of sound which then reflect back off of the objects in front of them). Many D&D monsters, however, use passive abilities, such as detecting slight vibrations caused by motion, electrical field distortions created by creatures, or simply a incredibly heightened state of all other senses combined - most of which cannot be 'turned off' through conscious effort, let alone neglect to be turned on, which is what would be required for consciousness to be a requirement.

Well, lets look at it logically. People can't turn off their sense of hearing, but 'normal' noise levels don't prevent them from sleeping. Thus, while a lot of nearby movement might wake up a creature with blindsight/sense, a 'normal' amount of nearby motion similarly shouldn't prevent them from sleeping.
concerro
09-08-07, 01:55 AM double post
concerro
09-08-07, 01:58 AM I guess you have a point. I guess you or the DM, if the DM is not you would have to decide where this blindsight came from, and/or how it works to determine what can negate it.
Majick
09-08-07, 02:05 AM The ability comes from an item but i can't actually take it off (don't ask :P)

It is a 'vibration' based one too, not sound. So i guess air and ground vibrations and such.

An interesting point though, would it mean i could never be snuck up on while sleeping? I mean, would i ALWAYS be aware of where everone is within it's range or is this another case of "I am sleeping so i don't know"?
IceFractal
09-08-07, 02:29 AM Probably would be a Wisdom check - fairly easy, say DC 5 for normal motion, DC 10 for stealthy motion. There isn't really an appropriate skill, but you could make one.
concerro
09-08-07, 04:03 AM The ability comes from an item but i can't actually take it off (don't ask :P)

It is a 'vibration' based one too, not sound. So i guess air and ground vibrations and such.

An interesting point though, would it mean i could never be snuck up on while sleeping? I mean, would i ALWAYS be aware of where everone is within it's range or is this another case of "I am sleeping so i don't know"?

If it is vibration then it sounds more like tremorsense, unless it is air vibration. In that case it is like the Susurrus from MM3 and a fog cloud, or a similar spell could block it.

If it is both(sounds like a homemade item) similar to the blindfold of true darkness. There are no rules against it(to have blindsight while sleep) that I could find, but most DM's would probably make you be awake for that to be effective, however that is up to you and your DM.
concerro
09-08-07, 04:16 AM If you had a continually acting Blindsight ability (always active) would you ever be able to sleep?

I mean, wouldn't you constantly be seeing stuff even with your eyes closed?

I was thinking in terms of someone sneaking up on you while you sleep, sorry.
To answer the question, there are monsters that have blindsight, and there are a few feats that give blindsight, but in neither situation has it been said that they lose sleep so I guess you are safe.
Dheran
09-08-07, 10:44 AM Well, lets look at it logically. People can't turn off their sense of hearing, but 'normal' noise levels don't prevent them from sleeping. Thus, while a lot of nearby movement might wake up a creature with blindsight/sense, a 'normal' amount of nearby motion similarly shouldn't prevent them from sleeping. This makes a lot of sense. So much that I think you should use the same sleeping penalties for Spot with Blindsight that you use for Listen: A sleeping character may make Listen checks at a -10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper. So just let the sleeping person with Blindsight make Spot checks with a -10 penalty.
Tedronai
09-08-07, 04:45 PM Except that a person with Blindsight will always succeed on a spot check to notice the presence of something/someone within the appropriate distance.

That ruling would simply be equivalent to ruling that they sleep with their eyes open. There is no skill for using blindsight, and thus they will have no ranks in that (nonexistent) skill.

The pure wisdom check, is, therefore, the most appropriate option available, IMO (unless you want to force such creatures to put ranks in a homebrew skill simply to make use of an ability that would otherwise be automatic in most situations, note that there are also creatures with such abilities that gain NO skill points, yet those would have to be similarly altered nevertheless)
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-08-07, 05:47 PM I would say that some part of your brain is constantly aware of all motion within the Blindsight area and if it deems it to be non-threatening you sleep on. If not, you wake up automatically. Falling asleep wouldn't be a problem either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Majick 09-08-07, 01:04 AM	If you had a continually acting Blindsight ability (always active) would you ever be able to sleep? I mean, wouldn't you constantly be seeing stuff even with your eyes closed?
Tedronai 09-08-07, 01:23 AM	One can be trained to sleep with their eyes open. I imagine that any creature naturally posessing such an ability would have such capability inherent in it's form. If a creature gained the ability through some other means, then it would be reasonably to assume that they might suffer a few sleepless nights as they grew accustomed to the change, after which they would adapt and be able to function normally.
concerro 09-08-07, 01:28 AM	No. It only works when you are awake, and blindsight does not allow you to see as you do with your eyes. You just know where the monster is. Some monsters have blindsight that works off sound so if they are in a silenced area their blindsight does not work. I think grimlocks use sound for theirs(as an exmaple)
Tedronai 09-08-07, 01:36 AM	Is there any reference or logical basis of 'It only works when you are awake'? While certainly some real-life examples of creatures that could be described as having 'blindsight' or 'blindsense' use an active process to drive that ability (a bat for instance must send out pulses of sound which then reflect back off of the objects in front of them). Many D&D monsters, however, use passive abilities, such as detecting slight vibrations caused by motion, electrical field distortions created by creatures, or simply a incredibly heightened state of all other senses combined - most of which cannot be 'turned off' through conscious effort, let alone neglect to be turned on, which is what would be required for consciousness to be a requirement.
Lafing Cat 09-08-07, 01:40 AM	Is there any reference or logical basis of 'It only works when you are awake'? While certainly some real-life examples of creatures that could be described as having 'blindsight' or 'blindsense' use an active process to drive that ability (a bat for instance must send out pulses of sound which then reflect back off of the objects in front of them). Many D&D monsters, however, use passive abilities, such as detecting slight vibrations caused by motion, electrical field distortions created by creatures, or simply a incredibly heightened state of all other senses combined - most of which cannot be 'turned off' through conscious effort, let alone neglect to be turned on, which is what would be required for consciousness to be a requirement. Well, lets look at it logically. People can't turn off their sense of hearing, but 'normal' noise levels don't prevent them from sleeping. Thus, while a lot of nearby movement might wake up a creature with blindsight/sense, a 'normal' amount of nearby motion similarly shouldn't prevent them from sleeping.
concerro 09-08-07, 01:55 AM	double post
concerro 09-08-07, 01:58 AM	I guess you have a point. I guess you or the DM, if the DM is not you would have to decide where this blindsight came from, and/or how it works to determine what can negate it.
Majick 09-08-07, 02:05 AM	The ability comes from an item but i can't actually take it off (don't ask :P) It is a 'vibration' based one too, not sound. So i guess air and ground vibrations and such. An interesting point though, would it mean i could never be snuck up on while sleeping? I mean, would i ALWAYS be aware of where everone is within it's range or is this another case of "I am sleeping so i don't know"?
IceFractal 09-08-07, 02:29 AM	Probably would be a Wisdom check - fairly easy, say DC 5 for normal motion, DC 10 for stealthy motion. There isn't really an appropriate skill, but you could make one.
concerro 09-08-07, 04:03 AM	The ability comes from an item but i can't actually take it off (don't ask :P) It is a 'vibration' based one too, not sound. So i guess air and ground vibrations and such. An interesting point though, would it mean i could never be snuck up on while sleeping? I mean, would i ALWAYS be aware of where everone is within it's range or is this another case of "I am sleeping so i don't know"? If it is vibration then it sounds more like tremorsense, unless it is air vibration. In that case it is like the Susurrus from MM3 and a fog cloud, or a similar spell could block it. If it is both(sounds like a homemade item) similar to the blindfold of true darkness. There are no rules against it(to have blindsight while sleep) that I could find, but most DM's would probably make you be awake for that to be effective, however that is up to you and your DM.
concerro 09-08-07, 04:16 AM	If you had a continually acting Blindsight ability (always active) would you ever be able to sleep? I mean, wouldn't you constantly be seeing stuff even with your eyes closed? I was thinking in terms of someone sneaking up on you while you sleep, sorry. To answer the question, there are monsters that have blindsight, and there are a few feats that give blindsight, but in neither situation has it been said that they lose sleep so I guess you are safe.
Dheran 09-08-07, 10:44 AM	Well, lets look at it logically. People can't turn off their sense of hearing, but 'normal' noise levels don't prevent them from sleeping. Thus, while a lot of nearby movement might wake up a creature with blindsight/sense, a 'normal' amount of nearby motion similarly shouldn't prevent them from sleeping. This makes a lot of sense. So much that I think you should use the same sleeping penalties for Spot with Blindsight that you use for Listen: A sleeping character may make Listen checks at a -10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper. So just let the sleeping person with Blindsight make Spot checks with a -10 penalty.
Tedronai 09-08-07, 04:45 PM	Except that a person with Blindsight will always succeed on a spot check to notice the presence of something/someone within the appropriate distance. That ruling would simply be equivalent to ruling that they sleep with their eyes open. There is no skill for using blindsight, and thus they will have no ranks in that (nonexistent) skill. The pure wisdom check, is, therefore, the most appropriate option available, IMO (unless you want to force such creatures to put ranks in a homebrew skill simply to make use of an ability that would otherwise be automatic in most situations, note that there are also creatures with such abilities that gain NO skill points, yet those would have to be similarly altered nevertheless)
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-08-07, 05:47 PM	I would say that some part of your brain is constantly aware of all motion within the Blindsight area and if it deems it to be non-threatening you sleep on. If not, you wake up automatically. Falling asleep wouldn't be a problem either.