Blindsight vs. illusions & concealment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blindsight vs. illusions & concealment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
burning_blood
06-10-04, 11:22 AM I posted this question on the Class-Based Accessories forum, but it didn't get much response so I thought I'd try it one more time, over in this forum instead. (Original thread here.) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=251479)

The question is, how effective is blindsight?

There are different kinds of blindsight, but the types I'm wondering about specifically are those possessed by the Dungeon Delver PrC in Song & Silence, and another which I believe is a feat in the Arms & Equipment Guide. (I should mention that my group plays 3.0).

The A&EG version is sonic-based, has a range of 60 ft., and is active anytime the character is blindfolded. The Dungeon Delver's version is as follows:

From S&S, page 8
At 2nd level, the dungeon delver gains acute sensitivity to sounds, smells, movement and other disturbances within 20 feet. This enhanced spatial sense allows him to maneuver and fight as well as he can under normal conditions, regardless of the ambient lighting. Invisibility is irrelevant, though the character cannot sense ethereal creatures. Blindsight does not replace normal vision. Activating this ability is a standard action, and the effect lasts for 10 minutes. This ability is not dependent on hearing, so deafness and similar effects do not negate it. At 8th level, the dungeon delver's blindsight range increases to 40 feet. The text states quite clearly that blindsight allows the character to ignore lighting conditions and invisibility. But how does it effect other situations? Does it allow the character to ignore the concealment a target recieves from Obscuring Mist, or from kneeling in tall grass? What about spells such as Blur or Displacement, or other sight-based illusions?

On the one hand, the ability only specifically mentions ambient lighting and invisibility, so it could be argued that only those two conditions are circumvented by blindsight. On the other hand, a character with blindsight isn't using his vision at all but is instead relying on his other sense(s), and so it could be argued that any condition which is solely sight-based can be ignored.

In the case of Blur, for example, the spell's description states that creatures who can't see the subject ignore the spell's effect. Is a blindsighted character using the ability to "see" the blurred opponent, and therefore the spell works normally? Or his he still "blind", and therefore ignores the spell's effect?

In the case of a person concealed in tall grass, does the blindsight allow the character to sense the person's presence through sound (and/or smell/vibrations/etc.); or does it not, because the person's concealment is not specifically due to lighting conditions or invisibility?

Obviously this has come up in-game for our group; our DM believes that blindsight only works on invisibility and lighting conditions as per the exact wording of the text, but some of the players believe it's more powerful than that. What are your thoughts? How do you interpret it? Are there any official rulings on this that I should be aware of? Please remember that my group plays 3.0, not 3.5.

Thanks.
tarkin
06-10-04, 11:57 AM As a general rule, the fact that a sense does not rely on light does not mean it can't be fooled by illusions.

Darkvision for example ignores light, but can be fooled by illusions.

Also, Invisibility is in a different class of things than most illusions, as proven by the fact that you get no will save to see through it.

I would rule that unless it was more specific, you still are affected by illusions. (I.E. it says you don't see illusions).

In general it is best to consider illusions to be closer to mental delusions than to light holograms.
burning_blood
06-12-04, 10:38 PM There are some illusions, though, such as Blur and Mirror Image, that specifically say they don't work against creatures that can't see or that have their eyes shut.

The illusions are also broken up into different categories (Figments, Glamers, Patterns, Phantasms, and Shadows). The PHB specifically states that Patterns and Phantasms affect the mind, and also that Figments and Glamers do not. Invisibility is a Glamer, which is why you don't get a Will save to see through it. But might that not also indicate that other visual Glamers would be ineffective against a character with Blindsight?
TheGogmagog
06-12-04, 10:54 PM I would rule that light and sight related effects would be negated, but concealment from solid (semi-solid) obsticals like grass, or obscuring mist would dampen and distort the non visual cues.
burning_blood
06-12-04, 11:55 PM Now that you mention it, I can see why mist would still work (no pun intended). Fog can mess with your other senses, like smell and hearing, almost as much as it can mess with your eyes. So Obscuring Mist or a foggy day could still hamper a blindsighted character.

I'm not so sure about the tall grass, though. Smell would work just fine in that situation, as would hearing.
Edward
06-13-04, 01:46 AM most blind sight is based on sound. Because it can pickup on non-moving objects (walls) it is typically considered to be bat like sonar. There more advanced forms like the one a dragon gets witch combines sonar, limited tremor sense, and something similar to a snake’s Jacobson’s organ as well as mystical senses. This just represents what it takes to blind the thing. (ie you cant blind a dragon)

I consider blind sight to be able to see threw most illusions that do not affect the mind directly Patterns, Phantasms affect you for this reason. Shadows are semi solid so you will still “see” them. figments and glamers will only work if that include auditory aspects. Eg you will see threw a silent image but a major image will fool you as likely as anybody else.

That’s my 2 bob anyway

Edward
burning_blood
06-16-04, 12:00 AM Okay, I've gone through the spells in the 3.0 PHB and compiled a list of illusions that would, IMHO, be ineffective against a blindsighted character; I've included my reasoning for each case.

Blur: visual-only glamer (according to the PHB glamers and figments are not mind affecting, but rather more like holograms), also sightless creatures not affected
Change Self: visual glamer; but really, the blindsighted character would only "see through" the illusion if he knew the person well enough to recognize their voice or movements.
Colour Spray: sightless creatures not affected
Displacement: visual-only glamer
Hypnotic Pattern: sightless creatures not affected
Illusory Wall: visual-only figment; this one kind of surprised me, but the text does say that "physical objects can pass through it without difficulty" and "detection abilities that do not require sight work normally"
Invisibility (including Improved, Mass and Sphere varieties): visual glamer
Minor Image: visual and aural figment; sonic-based blindsight would not be effective in this case
Mirror Image: visual and aural figment; the text says that you can't use hearing to determine which is the real caster, but it also says that you can ignore the spell's effects by closing your eyes; perhaps only non-sonic blindsight would "see through" it
Mislead: the blindsighted character would see both the real caster (who is just invisible) and the double (which the text says smells, sounds and feels real)
Rainbow Pattern: does not affect sightless creatures
Seeming: just like Change Self, blindsight would only reveal the person's true identity if they know each other well
Silent Image: visual-only figment

So all Phantasms and Shadows should work normally, as well as most Patterns. Any mind-affecting spell that says only "sightless creatures not affected," like Hypnotic Pattern, would still work normally unless the blindsighted character had his eyes shut at the time. A lot of Glamers and Figments alter the way things feel, smell and/or sound and therefore work normally also.
burning_blood
06-18-04, 04:29 PM :bump: One last try...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
burning_blood 06-10-04, 11:22 AM	I posted this question on the Class-Based Accessories forum, but it didn't get much response so I thought I'd try it one more time, over in this forum instead. (Original thread here.) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=251479) The question is, how effective is blindsight? There are different kinds of blindsight, but the types I'm wondering about specifically are those possessed by the Dungeon Delver PrC in Song & Silence, and another which I believe is a feat in the Arms & Equipment Guide. (I should mention that my group plays 3.0). The A&EG version is sonic-based, has a range of 60 ft., and is active anytime the character is blindfolded. The Dungeon Delver's version is as follows: From S&S, page 8 At 2nd level, the dungeon delver gains acute sensitivity to sounds, smells, movement and other disturbances within 20 feet. This enhanced spatial sense allows him to maneuver and fight as well as he can under normal conditions, regardless of the ambient lighting. Invisibility is irrelevant, though the character cannot sense ethereal creatures. Blindsight does not replace normal vision. Activating this ability is a standard action, and the effect lasts for 10 minutes. This ability is not dependent on hearing, so deafness and similar effects do not negate it. At 8th level, the dungeon delver's blindsight range increases to 40 feet. The text states quite clearly that blindsight allows the character to ignore lighting conditions and invisibility. But how does it effect other situations? Does it allow the character to ignore the concealment a target recieves from Obscuring Mist, or from kneeling in tall grass? What about spells such as Blur or Displacement, or other sight-based illusions? On the one hand, the ability only specifically mentions ambient lighting and invisibility, so it could be argued that only those two conditions are circumvented by blindsight. On the other hand, a character with blindsight isn't using his vision at all but is instead relying on his other sense(s), and so it could be argued that any condition which is solely sight-based can be ignored. In the case of Blur, for example, the spell's description states that creatures who can't see the subject ignore the spell's effect. Is a blindsighted character using the ability to "see" the blurred opponent, and therefore the spell works normally? Or his he still "blind", and therefore ignores the spell's effect? In the case of a person concealed in tall grass, does the blindsight allow the character to sense the person's presence through sound (and/or smell/vibrations/etc.); or does it not, because the person's concealment is not specifically due to lighting conditions or invisibility? Obviously this has come up in-game for our group; our DM believes that blindsight only works on invisibility and lighting conditions as per the exact wording of the text, but some of the players believe it's more powerful than that. What are your thoughts? How do you interpret it? Are there any official rulings on this that I should be aware of? Please remember that my group plays 3.0, not 3.5. Thanks.
tarkin 06-10-04, 11:57 AM	As a general rule, the fact that a sense does not rely on light does not mean it can't be fooled by illusions. Darkvision for example ignores light, but can be fooled by illusions. Also, Invisibility is in a different class of things than most illusions, as proven by the fact that you get no will save to see through it. I would rule that unless it was more specific, you still are affected by illusions. (I.E. it says you don't see illusions). In general it is best to consider illusions to be closer to mental delusions than to light holograms.
burning_blood 06-12-04, 10:38 PM	There are some illusions, though, such as Blur and Mirror Image, that specifically say they don't work against creatures that can't see or that have their eyes shut. The illusions are also broken up into different categories (Figments, Glamers, Patterns, Phantasms, and Shadows). The PHB specifically states that Patterns and Phantasms affect the mind, and also that Figments and Glamers do not. Invisibility is a Glamer, which is why you don't get a Will save to see through it. But might that not also indicate that other visual Glamers would be ineffective against a character with Blindsight?
TheGogmagog 06-12-04, 10:54 PM	I would rule that light and sight related effects would be negated, but concealment from solid (semi-solid) obsticals like grass, or obscuring mist would dampen and distort the non visual cues.
burning_blood 06-12-04, 11:55 PM	Now that you mention it, I can see why mist would still work (no pun intended). Fog can mess with your other senses, like smell and hearing, almost as much as it can mess with your eyes. So Obscuring Mist or a foggy day could still hamper a blindsighted character. I'm not so sure about the tall grass, though. Smell would work just fine in that situation, as would hearing.
Edward 06-13-04, 01:46 AM	most blind sight is based on sound. Because it can pickup on non-moving objects (walls) it is typically considered to be bat like sonar. There more advanced forms like the one a dragon gets witch combines sonar, limited tremor sense, and something similar to a snake’s Jacobson’s organ as well as mystical senses. This just represents what it takes to blind the thing. (ie you cant blind a dragon) I consider blind sight to be able to see threw most illusions that do not affect the mind directly Patterns, Phantasms affect you for this reason. Shadows are semi solid so you will still “see” them. figments and glamers will only work if that include auditory aspects. Eg you will see threw a silent image but a major image will fool you as likely as anybody else. That’s my 2 bob anyway Edward
burning_blood 06-16-04, 12:00 AM	Okay, I've gone through the spells in the 3.0 PHB and compiled a list of illusions that would, IMHO, be ineffective against a blindsighted character; I've included my reasoning for each case. Blur: visual-only glamer (according to the PHB glamers and figments are not mind affecting, but rather more like holograms), also sightless creatures not affected Change Self: visual glamer; but really, the blindsighted character would only "see through" the illusion if he knew the person well enough to recognize their voice or movements. Colour Spray: sightless creatures not affected Displacement: visual-only glamer Hypnotic Pattern: sightless creatures not affected Illusory Wall: visual-only figment; this one kind of surprised me, but the text does say that "physical objects can pass through it without difficulty" and "detection abilities that do not require sight work normally" Invisibility (including Improved, Mass and Sphere varieties): visual glamer Minor Image: visual and aural figment; sonic-based blindsight would not be effective in this case Mirror Image: visual and aural figment; the text says that you can't use hearing to determine which is the real caster, but it also says that you can ignore the spell's effects by closing your eyes; perhaps only non-sonic blindsight would "see through" it Mislead: the blindsighted character would see both the real caster (who is just invisible) and the double (which the text says smells, sounds and feels real) Rainbow Pattern: does not affect sightless creatures Seeming: just like Change Self, blindsight would only reveal the person's true identity if they know each other well Silent Image: visual-only figment So all Phantasms and Shadows should work normally, as well as most Patterns. Any mind-affecting spell that says only "sightless creatures not affected," like Hypnotic Pattern, would still work normally unless the blindsighted character had his eyes shut at the time. A lot of Glamers and Figments alter the way things feel, smell and/or sound and therefore work normally also.
burning_blood 06-18-04, 04:29 PM	:bump: One last try...