Blink and Incorporeal Touch Attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blink and Incorporeal Touch Attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CantripN
02-11-07, 02:27 AM Howdy, folks!
In a campaign I play in, we recently found a Ring of Blinking.
We gave it to the Fighter, and would like to know how it works.
+2 to Attack and Ignore DEX bonus to AC (To targets that can't see into the Ethereal) - Fine.
20% for any attack he makes - Fine.
Half damage from AOE spells and Falling - Fine.

Problems:
50% miss chance - For magic, non Ghost Touch weapons, sure.
How about Incorporeal Touch Attacks? While on the Material (50%), they work as normal, but while on the Ethereal?

Corrupting Touch (Su)
A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6 points of damage. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only.
So is a normal melee attack against Ethereal, since the Ghost still can target Ethereal targets with it?

Draining Touch (Su)
A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack drains 1d4 points from any one ability score it selects. On each such successful attack, the ghost heals 5 points of damage to itself. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack rolls only. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only.
Again, does this become a normal melee attack 50% of the time for blinking fighters?

Another issue is that Ghosts have no STR score stated, but it's supposed to use one. Even worse:
Special Attacks:
A ghost retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect nonethereal creatures.

How are we to know what it had in life, if the entry doesn't mention it? The DM isn't going to bother with it...

Can Ghosts Trip/Disarm/Grapple a Blinking fella? I think they can Trip and Disarm, with a 50% miss chance, but I'm doubtful about the Grapple... Again, no STR score stated...
Father Dale
02-11-07, 03:20 AM OK, this is some confusing stuff. You have to distinguish between Incorporeal and Ethereal. These are two way different things.

If a creature is Ethereal, then it is on a completely different plane of existence. Generally speaking, only force effects, and positive and negative energy effects will cross from the material plane onto the Ethereal plane. They do not, however, cross from the ethereal to the material. When blinking, a creature spends half its time on the material plane and half on the ethereal plane.

If a creature is Incorporeal it is completely on the material plane. It is not ethereal. It is simply a creature on the material plane that lacks a physical body. A manifesting ghost does not exist on the ethereal plane while manifested, it is wholly on the material plane.

What this means for you and your blindkng fighter:

A ghost touch weapon will not help against ethereal targets. Nor will an ethereal creature gain any use from a ghost touch weapon, except against an incorporeal creature on the ethereal plane. Thus, using a ghost touch weapon against a blinking character will confer no benefits and will not lesson the 50% miss chance. Nor will using a ghost touch weapon while blinking negate the 20% miss chance.

Incorporeal touch attacks still retain the 50% miss chance against a blinking creature. Manifesting ghosts are incorporeal and not ethereal, and thus still have a 50% miss chance.

If a ghost is not manifested, then it is on the ethereal plane and not the material plane. Thus, the same miss chances would apply.

A ghost is a template, so it is added to another creature to create the ghost. I think, although I'm not positive, that a ghost uses its Charisma score as its Str score on the ethereal plane. Also, its deflection bonus to AC becomes a natural armor bonus instead. Its abilities should still be the same as what they are for the ghost, since it doesn't really lose any abilities by adding the template.

As for grappling a blinking character (or tripping, disarming, etc..) I don't relly know. My guess is that you can with a 50% miss chance. I'd just roll it once on the attack roll to see if the overall attack works. However, I'd also guess that a grappled character who is blinking could escape the grapple without having to make a grapple check, although moving out of the grapple might provoke attacks of opportunity for moving out of a space threatened by an opponent.
CantripN
02-11-07, 03:27 AM First, thanks! :)

Second:Several errors on your part:

1-Armor Class
Natural armor is the same as the base creature’s but applies only to ethereal encounters. When the ghost manifests (see below), its natural armor bonus is +0, but it gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is higher. The NA has nothing to do with the Deflection AC.

2- Manifested Ghosts are BOTH Incorporeal on the Material Plane and Corporeal on the Ethreal Plane. "...When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane... A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane..." So while the Fighter is on the Material Plane (50%), he is attacked with Incorporeal Touch Attacks and has a 50% miss chance on the Ghost. While on the Ethereal (50%), he is attacked by the Ghost using it's Natural Weapons, Spells and Special Attacks (That are treated as Slams or Unarmed Strikes?) and he can hit the Ghost without any miss chance (Since Ethereal Creatures have no miss chance vs. a Ghost, manifested or not, they just need to hit the AC, which includes NA but not the Deflection bonus).
Part-Human2
02-11-07, 10:04 AM I'm not sure why you're quoting ghost rules. Is the Fighter facing off with a Ghost? Is the fighter a ghost?

The 3.5 Main FAQ has ruled that Ghosts have a STR score on the Ethereal and while manifiesting and using a Ghost Touch weapon. There are a lot of Ghost questions in the FAQ.

Libris Mortis (pg 143) expanded on what happens to incorporeal creatures forced into corporeality. Using those rules, the now corporeal creature gains Natural Armor = Deflection bonus and STR = CHA.

I think the whole Ghost dual-plane existance is the oddest, most complicated mechanic they could have used for explaning a ghost's existence. They just should have said ghosts are incorporeal and have a naturally invisible alternate form (SU) in which they can do very little.
bigbythewise
02-11-07, 03:01 PM My opinion is that a Blinking character would be able to hit a manifesting Ghost with only 25% (instead of 50%) of ignoring the damage due to the incorporeality. Since she strikes on both Ethereal and Material planes, she shouldn't even gets a miss chance (20%) against the Ghost then.
CantripN
02-11-07, 03:23 PM My opinion is that a Blinking character would be able to hit a manifesting Ghost with only 25% (instead of 50%) of ignoring the damage due to the incorporeality. Since she strikes on both Ethereal and Material planes, she shouldn't even gets a miss chance (20%) against the Ghost then.

As I keep saying, this spell is a Headache waiting to happen. 50% of the time, the Fighter is on the Ethereal. While on the Ethereal, he has a 20% only to strike the Material (And meet the Incorporeal Ghost, so 50% miss chance), and 80% to hit the Ghost on the Ethereal.
While the Fighter is on the Material (50%), he has a 20% to strike the Ethreal (No miss chance) and 80% to hit the Manifested Ghost, which would give him 50% miss chance.
bigbythewise
02-11-07, 04:36 PM I don't know if i understand you well. :)
If you are on the Material plane, there is no miss chance to hit incorporeal creature. You hit it always (with magic weapon of course). There is only 50% chance that the creature will ingore the damage. (with some exceptional sources)
Manifesting Ghost is on both Ethereal and Material plane (and incorporeal as well because of the manifesting). So if you hit him while on Material - no miss chance, but he can still ignore the damage. If you are Ethereal (Ethereal Jaunt spell), you can also strike him without miss chance, but you can even hurt him normally since the Ghost hasn't incorporeal subtype while on Ethereal plane.
In a case of Blink spell, you have 20% miss chance because you're fading between both of the planes. You can't cotrol it perfetly, and ethereal creature can't affect anything on material plane, NEVER. So the miss chance means the exact moment of time you strike while ethereal. But this only applies to the Material vs Material combat but not to the Material vs Material AND Ethereal combat.(Ghost case) So i am assuming that you don't get 20% miss chance when fighting the Ghost while under a Blink spell.
Also, there should be a 50% (or maybe 20%) chance of ignoring "damage ignoring" of incorporeal subtype.. :)
CantripN
02-11-07, 04:40 PM Well, the math behind Blink is fuzzy, and Ghosts are plain silly.
While blinking, you get to treat an Ethereal Target as though it were Material. So you only have a 20% to miss the Ghost on the Ethereal and hit the Material.
Out of those 20%, 50% will still hit and damage the Ghost. So you have 90% to hit a Ghost?
Moribund
02-11-07, 05:49 PM I believe CantripN has the right of it. It may be important keep the hit on material separate from the hit on the ethereal as the AC may change (particularly if the ghost is wearing armor or something).

So for someone combating the ghost while blinking assuming he's trying to strike while ethereal:
01-10% incorporeal miss chance
11-20% check attack against manifested AC
21-00% check attack against ethereal AC

For the ghost attacking a blinking opponent:
01-50% touch attack uses Str
51-00% touch attack uses Dex (but doesn't ignore force effects)

Corrupting Touch has some weird wording in that it adds Str to damage against ethereal foes, but I assume it is still a touch attack.

Incorporeal creatures that are ghosts are not also ethereal, so 50% miss for their touch attacks. (Unless they can see invisible creatures, then it's only 20% as per blink spell description)

You want to be really confusing add some fog on the ethereal plane. That screws everything up.

Only force effects can maintain grapple on a blinking character. You can grab them (with the normal miss chance), but they slip away as soon as they become ethereal (or material in the case of ghosts grappling).
CantripN
02-11-07, 07:04 PM Very good explanation, Moribund!
Can you do this analysis for a Blinking person attacking a ghost, but not trying to hit it on the Ethereal but rather just hit in general (Not caring on what plane... The normal, ignorant Fighter...)? I tried, but I managed to get 100% to hit and 60% to miss. Funny, but pointless, on my part.
Moribund
02-11-07, 07:24 PM If he didn't care which plane he attacked from the fighter is on each plane half the time so:

01-25% incorporeal miss chance
26-50% check attack against manifested AC
51-00% check attack against ethereal AC

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CantripN 02-11-07, 02:27 AM	Howdy, folks! In a campaign I play in, we recently found a Ring of Blinking. We gave it to the Fighter, and would like to know how it works. +2 to Attack and Ignore DEX bonus to AC (To targets that can't see into the Ethereal) - Fine. 20% for any attack he makes - Fine. Half damage from AOE spells and Falling - Fine. Problems: 50% miss chance - For magic, non Ghost Touch weapons, sure. How about Incorporeal Touch Attacks? While on the Material (50%), they work as normal, but while on the Ethereal? Corrupting Touch (Su) A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6 points of damage. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only. So is a normal melee attack against Ethereal, since the Ghost still can target Ethereal targets with it? Draining Touch (Su) A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack drains 1d4 points from any one ability score it selects. On each such successful attack, the ghost heals 5 points of damage to itself. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack rolls only. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only. Again, does this become a normal melee attack 50% of the time for blinking fighters? Another issue is that Ghosts have no STR score stated, but it's supposed to use one. Even worse: Special Attacks: A ghost retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect nonethereal creatures. How are we to know what it had in life, if the entry doesn't mention it? The DM isn't going to bother with it... Can Ghosts Trip/Disarm/Grapple a Blinking fella? I think they can Trip and Disarm, with a 50% miss chance, but I'm doubtful about the Grapple... Again, no STR score stated...
Father Dale 02-11-07, 03:20 AM	OK, this is some confusing stuff. You have to distinguish between Incorporeal and Ethereal. These are two way different things. If a creature is Ethereal, then it is on a completely different plane of existence. Generally speaking, only force effects, and positive and negative energy effects will cross from the material plane onto the Ethereal plane. They do not, however, cross from the ethereal to the material. When blinking, a creature spends half its time on the material plane and half on the ethereal plane. If a creature is Incorporeal it is completely on the material plane. It is not ethereal. It is simply a creature on the material plane that lacks a physical body. A manifesting ghost does not exist on the ethereal plane while manifested, it is wholly on the material plane. What this means for you and your blindkng fighter: A ghost touch weapon will not help against ethereal targets. Nor will an ethereal creature gain any use from a ghost touch weapon, except against an incorporeal creature on the ethereal plane. Thus, using a ghost touch weapon against a blinking character will confer no benefits and will not lesson the 50% miss chance. Nor will using a ghost touch weapon while blinking negate the 20% miss chance. Incorporeal touch attacks still retain the 50% miss chance against a blinking creature. Manifesting ghosts are incorporeal and not ethereal, and thus still have a 50% miss chance. If a ghost is not manifested, then it is on the ethereal plane and not the material plane. Thus, the same miss chances would apply. A ghost is a template, so it is added to another creature to create the ghost. I think, although I'm not positive, that a ghost uses its Charisma score as its Str score on the ethereal plane. Also, its deflection bonus to AC becomes a natural armor bonus instead. Its abilities should still be the same as what they are for the ghost, since it doesn't really lose any abilities by adding the template. As for grappling a blinking character (or tripping, disarming, etc..) I don't relly know. My guess is that you can with a 50% miss chance. I'd just roll it once on the attack roll to see if the overall attack works. However, I'd also guess that a grappled character who is blinking could escape the grapple without having to make a grapple check, although moving out of the grapple might provoke attacks of opportunity for moving out of a space threatened by an opponent.
CantripN 02-11-07, 03:27 AM	First, thanks! :) Second:Several errors on your part: 1-Armor Class Natural armor is the same as the base creature’s but applies only to ethereal encounters. When the ghost manifests (see below), its natural armor bonus is +0, but it gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is higher. The NA has nothing to do with the Deflection AC. 2- Manifested Ghosts are BOTH Incorporeal on the Material Plane and Corporeal on the Ethreal Plane. "...When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane... A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane..." So while the Fighter is on the Material Plane (50%), he is attacked with Incorporeal Touch Attacks and has a 50% miss chance on the Ghost. While on the Ethereal (50%), he is attacked by the Ghost using it's Natural Weapons, Spells and Special Attacks (That are treated as Slams or Unarmed Strikes?) and he can hit the Ghost without any miss chance (Since Ethereal Creatures have no miss chance vs. a Ghost, manifested or not, they just need to hit the AC, which includes NA but not the Deflection bonus).
Part-Human2 02-11-07, 10:04 AM	I'm not sure why you're quoting ghost rules. Is the Fighter facing off with a Ghost? Is the fighter a ghost? The 3.5 Main FAQ has ruled that Ghosts have a STR score on the Ethereal and while manifiesting and using a Ghost Touch weapon. There are a lot of Ghost questions in the FAQ. Libris Mortis (pg 143) expanded on what happens to incorporeal creatures forced into corporeality. Using those rules, the now corporeal creature gains Natural Armor = Deflection bonus and STR = CHA. I think the whole Ghost dual-plane existance is the oddest, most complicated mechanic they could have used for explaning a ghost's existence. They just should have said ghosts are incorporeal and have a naturally invisible alternate form (SU) in which they can do very little.
bigbythewise 02-11-07, 03:01 PM	My opinion is that a Blinking character would be able to hit a manifesting Ghost with only 25% (instead of 50%) of ignoring the damage due to the incorporeality. Since she strikes on both Ethereal and Material planes, she shouldn't even gets a miss chance (20%) against the Ghost then.
CantripN 02-11-07, 03:23 PM	My opinion is that a Blinking character would be able to hit a manifesting Ghost with only 25% (instead of 50%) of ignoring the damage due to the incorporeality. Since she strikes on both Ethereal and Material planes, she shouldn't even gets a miss chance (20%) against the Ghost then. As I keep saying, this spell is a Headache waiting to happen. 50% of the time, the Fighter is on the Ethereal. While on the Ethereal, he has a 20% only to strike the Material (And meet the Incorporeal Ghost, so 50% miss chance), and 80% to hit the Ghost on the Ethereal. While the Fighter is on the Material (50%), he has a 20% to strike the Ethreal (No miss chance) and 80% to hit the Manifested Ghost, which would give him 50% miss chance.
bigbythewise 02-11-07, 04:36 PM	I don't know if i understand you well. :) If you are on the Material plane, there is no miss chance to hit incorporeal creature. You hit it always (with magic weapon of course). There is only 50% chance that the creature will ingore the damage. (with some exceptional sources) Manifesting Ghost is on both Ethereal and Material plane (and incorporeal as well because of the manifesting). So if you hit him while on Material - no miss chance, but he can still ignore the damage. If you are Ethereal (Ethereal Jaunt spell), you can also strike him without miss chance, but you can even hurt him normally since the Ghost hasn't incorporeal subtype while on Ethereal plane. In a case of Blink spell, you have 20% miss chance because you're fading between both of the planes. You can't cotrol it perfetly, and ethereal creature can't affect anything on material plane, NEVER. So the miss chance means the exact moment of time you strike while ethereal. But this only applies to the Material vs Material combat but not to the Material vs Material AND Ethereal combat.(Ghost case) So i am assuming that you don't get 20% miss chance when fighting the Ghost while under a Blink spell. Also, there should be a 50% (or maybe 20%) chance of ignoring "damage ignoring" of incorporeal subtype.. :)
CantripN 02-11-07, 04:40 PM	Well, the math behind Blink is fuzzy, and Ghosts are plain silly. While blinking, you get to treat an Ethereal Target as though it were Material. So you only have a 20% to miss the Ghost on the Ethereal and hit the Material. Out of those 20%, 50% will still hit and damage the Ghost. So you have 90% to hit a Ghost?
Moribund 02-11-07, 05:49 PM	I believe CantripN has the right of it. It may be important keep the hit on material separate from the hit on the ethereal as the AC may change (particularly if the ghost is wearing armor or something). So for someone combating the ghost while blinking assuming he's trying to strike while ethereal: 01-10% incorporeal miss chance 11-20% check attack against manifested AC 21-00% check attack against ethereal AC For the ghost attacking a blinking opponent: 01-50% touch attack uses Str 51-00% touch attack uses Dex (but doesn't ignore force effects) Corrupting Touch has some weird wording in that it adds Str to damage against ethereal foes, but I assume it is still a touch attack. Incorporeal creatures that are ghosts are not also ethereal, so 50% miss for their touch attacks. (Unless they can see invisible creatures, then it's only 20% as per blink spell description) You want to be really confusing add some fog on the ethereal plane. That screws everything up. Only force effects can maintain grapple on a blinking character. You can grab them (with the normal miss chance), but they slip away as soon as they become ethereal (or material in the case of ghosts grappling).
CantripN 02-11-07, 07:04 PM	Very good explanation, Moribund! Can you do this analysis for a Blinking person attacking a ghost, but not trying to hit it on the Ethereal but rather just hit in general (Not caring on what plane... The normal, ignorant Fighter...)? I tried, but I managed to get 100% to hit and 60% to miss. Funny, but pointless, on my part.
Moribund 02-11-07, 07:24 PM	If he didn't care which plane he attacked from the fighter is on each plane half the time so: 01-25% incorporeal miss chance 26-50% check attack against manifested AC 51-00% check attack against ethereal AC