Blink + Grapple = ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blink + Grapple = ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
meabolex
01-11-04, 10:07 PM What happens when character A is blinking (as the spell) and character B tries to grapple A?

Assuming it is possible to succeed at the initial touch attack (assuming no ghost touch or concealment-negation or anything like that), is it possible to maintain the grapple? Or will the grapple end instantly at the end of the round?
da chicken
01-11-04, 11:35 PM Any grapple attempt would fail, IMO. The character doesn't blink once in the round... it's constantly and at random. It's like a strobe light. That's why even a fireball deals 1/2 damage.

Even if you manage to touch them through the 50% miss chance, they'll immediately jump to the Ethereal Plane and you'll lose hold of them before you could even attempt to move in or maintain the hold.
tarkin
01-12-04, 01:02 AM da chicken, that is arguable.

You are assuming that they are allowed to blink when they are being held.

Blinking is movin your body in a 4th dimension.

The question is when you hold them so that they can not move in 3 dimensions does that prevent them from moving in the 4th dimension.

I would say yes, because of the mechanics of friction.

Grab a brick. Hold it tightly, but only on two opposite ends. (Dimension 1). Now have a partner try to push/pull it from the either of the remaining two free dimensions. They can't do it, even though their is nothing "blocking" the brick from moving in those other dimensions, except friction.

Similarly, grappling someone using your 3 dimensional body creates a friction hold that prevents your body from moving in other dimensions.

I know this is an extremely scientific arguement, but it is also a rather low end science, and more importantly it explains why touching people allows you to take them with you when you teleport. It explains why your clothing comes with you . It also means that if you tightly manacle someone to a heavy object they can not teleport away, and if you just manacle someone to themselves, when they teleport they will still be in the manacles.

Using this logic, if you grapple someone they can not teleport away in any manner unless they are using a method that could also teleport you. As blink will not allow you to take a 2nd party, this means grappling would stop someone from blinking, ASSUMING they could grab a hold of you when you were corporeal, which is less than a 50% chance.

As Blink can't take another person, when you Blink,
Sheer_FALACY
01-12-04, 01:20 AM But ethereality doesn't seem to be a 4th dimension, it seems to be a state. Take a block of wood, and hold it with both of your hands. Now, have a friend set it on fire. That is the equivalent of blinking, although it probably hurts more.
FlyingCowKing
01-12-04, 03:43 AM Ladies and Gentlemen, the answer to this problem is quite clear! /nod

If YOU'RE the blinking grappler, let your grappled opponent know that your "about to blink" and ask him to step over to whatever pre-determined location you have selected for your blinking activity, its just good manners.

Although if your OPPONENT is blinking and you really really want to keep grappling him, (sometimes I just need a hug too, I understand) you need to take the assertive stance in the conflict.
When your foe begins to blink (squint your eyes REALLY tight so you can see him faster!) simply shout "HEY" and stomp about a bit, to distract him. He has no business blinking when you took the time to grab him anyway.
beitel
01-12-04, 12:24 PM FlyingCowKing, as I write this, I'm still on the floor laughing. You're exemple about putting fire to the piece of wood is very nicely put.

I understand Sheer_FALACY for trying to explain spells with science (I'm often tempted to do the same). But experience has shown me this ; you just can't explain the unexplainable. since spells don't exist in real life, real life explanation just won't work.

That doesn't mean giving up on trying to explain things but...
Heron_Marked_Blade
01-12-04, 12:39 PM Notice the text of the spell: "While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled." The text says nothing about "friction locks" or "4th dimensions." Any discussion of such is pure conjecture.

I would rule that the grappler suffers the 50% miss chance, and has to make the check every time he tries to do something (control the grapple, pin, do damage, etc). On the blinking character's turn, he can attempt to walk out of the grapple (as the text above shows). If he becomes solid while walking out of the grapple, each person will take some damage, but not 1d6-worth since he's not moving through 5' of a solid object.
meabolex
01-12-04, 12:58 PM Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade
"While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled."
But the damage clause only applies for each 5 feet of solid material you walk through. Also, the idea that you could stay grappled for 6 seconds while blinking (assuming 3 seconds to grab on/unarmed damage and 3 seconds in the next round to do something else) is hard to imagine. In fact, holding a blinking object is hard to imagine.

Teleporting is perhaps one method of explaining this, but teleporting is now in the conjuration school to separate it from transmuation effects. So this is an inherently different effect from teleport.

Here's a possibility:

Since blinking is part concealment, part ethereal travel, eliminate the concealment from the equation as if the person grappling has true seeing. That drops the miss chance to 20%, according to the spell (it might be 30% -- I don't have my PH with me). Now, every non-free action anyone takes in the grapple has a 20% or 30% chance to completely break the grapple.
Prgrmr@wrk
01-12-04, 02:54 PM Originally posted by tarkin
da chicken, that is arguable.

You are assuming that they are allowed to blink when they are being held.

Blinking is movin your body in a 4th dimension.
...................
Grab a brick. Hold it tightly, but only on two opposite ends. (Dimension 1). Now have a partner try to push/pull it from the either of the remaining two free dimensions. They can't do it, even though their is nothing "blocking" the brick from moving in those other dimensions, except friction.

Similarly, grappling someone using your 3 dimensional body creates a friction hold that prevents your body from moving in other dimensions.

I know this is an extremely scientific arguement, but it is also a rather low end science, and more importantly it explains why touching people allows you to take them with you when you teleport. It explains why your clothing comes with you . It also means that if you tightly manacle someone to a heavy object they can not teleport away, and if you just manacle someone to themselves, when they teleport they will still be in the manacles.

Using this logic, if you grapple someone they can not teleport away in any manner unless they are using a method that could also teleport you. As blink will not allow you to take a 2nd party, this means grappling would stop someone from blinking, ASSUMING they could grab a hold of you when you were corporeal, which is less than a 50% chance.

As Blink can't take another person, when you Blink,

An interesting argument. Unfortunately, interesting doesn't mean accurate.

You manacle a sorceror, he's still able to teleport away. That's why we have spells to keep people from teleporting (Dimensional Anchor?). If manacles were good enough to stop teleportation, it sure as heck wouldn't be such a high level spell.

Your friction on brick comparison doesn't work either, because you are still applying friction in one of the 3 dimensions that the object is being moved in.
Think of a 2d creature (a piece of thin thin thin paper) that tries to hold onto another piece of 2 dimensional matter (say a very thin puzzle piece). It can only grip it by a 1 dimensional plane (bent at 2d angles). Now a 3d bully comes along, and wants that bit of 2d matter. He pushes it downwards (perpendicular to the 2d creature's orientation), and has (I believe) infinitely more perpendicular force than the infinitely thin 3d creature gains from friction. Of course, if the 3d creature were to try and pull it away parallel to the 2d plane, the 2d creature would be at less of a disadvantage, and could maintain a grip on something 2d, by simply latching onto it like 2 puzzle pieces put together.

Long-short: The 2d matter just blinked away, as far as the 2d creature is concerned.

Either way, if you can't be hit with an attack 100% of the time, because you blink out of the way, there's no way in heck you can grapple or be grappled for an entire round, until the next action. It's a constant effect, and grappling is a 'full time' action.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
meabolex 01-11-04, 10:07 PM	What happens when character A is blinking (as the spell) and character B tries to grapple A? Assuming it is possible to succeed at the initial touch attack (assuming no ghost touch or concealment-negation or anything like that), is it possible to maintain the grapple? Or will the grapple end instantly at the end of the round?
da chicken 01-11-04, 11:35 PM	Any grapple attempt would fail, IMO. The character doesn't blink once in the round... it's constantly and at random. It's like a strobe light. That's why even a fireball deals 1/2 damage. Even if you manage to touch them through the 50% miss chance, they'll immediately jump to the Ethereal Plane and you'll lose hold of them before you could even attempt to move in or maintain the hold.
tarkin 01-12-04, 01:02 AM	da chicken, that is arguable. You are assuming that they are allowed to blink when they are being held. Blinking is movin your body in a 4th dimension. The question is when you hold them so that they can not move in 3 dimensions does that prevent them from moving in the 4th dimension. I would say yes, because of the mechanics of friction. Grab a brick. Hold it tightly, but only on two opposite ends. (Dimension 1). Now have a partner try to push/pull it from the either of the remaining two free dimensions. They can't do it, even though their is nothing "blocking" the brick from moving in those other dimensions, except friction. Similarly, grappling someone using your 3 dimensional body creates a friction hold that prevents your body from moving in other dimensions. I know this is an extremely scientific arguement, but it is also a rather low end science, and more importantly it explains why touching people allows you to take them with you when you teleport. It explains why your clothing comes with you . It also means that if you tightly manacle someone to a heavy object they can not teleport away, and if you just manacle someone to themselves, when they teleport they will still be in the manacles. Using this logic, if you grapple someone they can not teleport away in any manner unless they are using a method that could also teleport you. As blink will not allow you to take a 2nd party, this means grappling would stop someone from blinking, ASSUMING they could grab a hold of you when you were corporeal, which is less than a 50% chance. As Blink can't take another person, when you Blink,
Sheer_FALACY 01-12-04, 01:20 AM	But ethereality doesn't seem to be a 4th dimension, it seems to be a state. Take a block of wood, and hold it with both of your hands. Now, have a friend set it on fire. That is the equivalent of blinking, although it probably hurts more.
FlyingCowKing 01-12-04, 03:43 AM	Ladies and Gentlemen, the answer to this problem is quite clear! /nod If YOU'RE the blinking grappler, let your grappled opponent know that your "about to blink" and ask him to step over to whatever pre-determined location you have selected for your blinking activity, its just good manners. Although if your OPPONENT is blinking and you really really want to keep grappling him, (sometimes I just need a hug too, I understand) you need to take the assertive stance in the conflict. When your foe begins to blink (squint your eyes REALLY tight so you can see him faster!) simply shout "HEY" and stomp about a bit, to distract him. He has no business blinking when you took the time to grab him anyway.
beitel 01-12-04, 12:24 PM	FlyingCowKing, as I write this, I'm still on the floor laughing. You're exemple about putting fire to the piece of wood is very nicely put. I understand Sheer_FALACY for trying to explain spells with science (I'm often tempted to do the same). But experience has shown me this ; you just can't explain the unexplainable. since spells don't exist in real life, real life explanation just won't work. That doesn't mean giving up on trying to explain things but...
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-12-04, 12:39 PM	Notice the text of the spell: "While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled." The text says nothing about "friction locks" or "4th dimensions." Any discussion of such is pure conjecture. I would rule that the grappler suffers the 50% miss chance, and has to make the check every time he tries to do something (control the grapple, pin, do damage, etc). On the blinking character's turn, he can attempt to walk out of the grapple (as the text above shows). If he becomes solid while walking out of the grapple, each person will take some damage, but not 1d6-worth since he's not moving through 5' of a solid object.
meabolex 01-12-04, 12:58 PM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade "While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled." But the damage clause only applies for each 5 feet of solid material you walk through. Also, the idea that you could stay grappled for 6 seconds while blinking (assuming 3 seconds to grab on/unarmed damage and 3 seconds in the next round to do something else) is hard to imagine. In fact, holding a blinking object is hard to imagine. Teleporting is perhaps one method of explaining this, but teleporting is now in the conjuration school to separate it from transmuation effects. So this is an inherently different effect from teleport. Here's a possibility: Since blinking is part concealment, part ethereal travel, eliminate the concealment from the equation as if the person grappling has true seeing. That drops the miss chance to 20%, according to the spell (it might be 30% -- I don't have my PH with me). Now, every non-free action anyone takes in the grapple has a 20% or 30% chance to completely break the grapple.
Prgrmr@wrk 01-12-04, 02:54 PM	Originally posted by tarkin da chicken, that is arguable. You are assuming that they are allowed to blink when they are being held. Blinking is movin your body in a 4th dimension. ................... Grab a brick. Hold it tightly, but only on two opposite ends. (Dimension 1). Now have a partner try to push/pull it from the either of the remaining two free dimensions. They can't do it, even though their is nothing "blocking" the brick from moving in those other dimensions, except friction. Similarly, grappling someone using your 3 dimensional body creates a friction hold that prevents your body from moving in other dimensions. I know this is an extremely scientific arguement, but it is also a rather low end science, and more importantly it explains why touching people allows you to take them with you when you teleport. It explains why your clothing comes with you . It also means that if you tightly manacle someone to a heavy object they can not teleport away, and if you just manacle someone to themselves, when they teleport they will still be in the manacles. Using this logic, if you grapple someone they can not teleport away in any manner unless they are using a method that could also teleport you. As blink will not allow you to take a 2nd party, this means grappling would stop someone from blinking, ASSUMING they could grab a hold of you when you were corporeal, which is less than a 50% chance. As Blink can't take another person, when you Blink, An interesting argument. Unfortunately, interesting doesn't mean accurate. You manacle a sorceror, he's still able to teleport away. That's why we have spells to keep people from teleporting (Dimensional Anchor?). If manacles were good enough to stop teleportation, it sure as heck wouldn't be such a high level spell. Your friction on brick comparison doesn't work either, because you are still applying friction in one of the 3 dimensions that the object is being moved in. Think of a 2d creature (a piece of thin thin thin paper) that tries to hold onto another piece of 2 dimensional matter (say a very thin puzzle piece). It can only grip it by a 1 dimensional plane (bent at 2d angles). Now a 3d bully comes along, and wants that bit of 2d matter. He pushes it downwards (perpendicular to the 2d creature's orientation), and has (I believe) infinitely more perpendicular force than the infinitely thin 3d creature gains from friction. Of course, if the 3d creature were to try and pull it away parallel to the 2d plane, the 2d creature would be at less of a disadvantage, and could maintain a grip on something 2d, by simply latching onto it like 2 puzzle pieces put together. Long-short: The 2d matter just blinked away, as far as the 2d creature is concerned. Either way, if you can't be hit with an attack 100% of the time, because you blink out of the way, there's no way in heck you can grapple or be grappled for an entire round, until the next action. It's a constant effect, and grappling is a 'full time' action.