blink vs. blink? [Archive] - Wizards Community

blink vs. blink? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gonzoron
11-27-07, 11:39 PM Simple question: What happens when one character casts blink and tries to attack another character who had cast blink?
Vegepygmy
11-28-07, 12:59 AM I'd go with this, from the spell description:

"You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones."

In other words, sometimes both of you are material at the same time, and you interact normally. Sometimes both of you are ethereal at the same time, and you interact (pretty much) normally. Sometimes one of you goes ethereal while the other remains material, and that's your 20% miss chance.
zioth
11-28-07, 06:10 PM Here's a way to handle it: Roll one miss chance for the attacker, and one for the defender. If both are 20 or above, or both are below 20, you're in the same state, so you hit.

If you want to be all mathy about it:

Chance that you're both ethereal: 0.2*0.2=0.04
Chance that you're both material: 0.8*0.8=0.64
Chance to interact normally = 0.64+0.04 = 0.68
Miss chance = 32%, or 30% to make it easier on the dice

So an alternative is to call it a 30% miss chance.

If you do the same trick with Greater Blink (50%), it doesn't matter if it's put up against Blink or Greater Blink. Either way, it works out to a 50% miss chance.
Vegepygmy
11-29-07, 01:24 AM Chance that you're both ethereal: 0.2*0.2=0.04
Chance that you're both material: 0.8*0.8=0.64
It looks as if you're assuming a blinker is ethereal 20% of the time and material 80% of the time. It's actually 50/50.

But in any case, your analysis fails to account for the attacker's ability to time his attacks. If we accepted your premise that the only thing that matters is how much of the time the attacker is ethereal/material, blinkers would suffer a 50% miss chance against their material targets (since they are ethereal half of the time) rather than the 20% they actually suffer.

Thus, I think my original conclusion is correct: two blinkers suffer a 20% miss chance against each other, rather than the usual 50%.
Black Mantha
11-29-07, 07:43 AM Well, if you think about it, your target blinking to or from the ethereal plane has the same effect as you blinking either way. So in effect both see the other blinking at double the frequency. If anything, your miss change will be higher, not lower. But for simplicity, I'd keep it at both 50% miss chance.
Vegepygmy
11-29-07, 02:57 PM Well, if you think about it, your target blinking to or from the ethereal plane has the same effect as you blinking either way.No, if you and your target are both ethereal, you can see and hit each other normally.
ArcTan
11-29-07, 03:59 PM The way I'd say it is that since blinking is random, it's impossible to time your blinks to be in "sync", so you don't get any special benefit of blinking against a blinking opponent (why should you? It seems counterintuitive to me that this would somehow be helpful in terms of hitting them).

So we just combine the normal rules. Attacker gets a 20% miss chance (because he can sort-of time his own attacks) but defender gets a 50% miss chance on top of that (because the attacker has no control over that blinking).
Vegepygmy
11-29-07, 07:20 PM The way I'd say it is that since blinking is random, it's impossible to time your blinks to be in "sync", so you don't get any special benefit of blinking against a blinking opponent (why should you? It seems counterintuitive to me that this would somehow be helpful in terms of hitting them).Because part of the 50% miss chance against a blinking target is the result of not being able to see him when he's ethereal. But when you are also blinking, you can see him, so your miss chance is rightly only 20% (per the spell description).

Under your method, then, there would be two 20% miss chances--which works out to a 36% overall miss chance. So maybe Zioth's numbers weren't that far off, after all.
ArcTan
11-29-07, 08:21 PM Because part of the 50% miss chance against a blinking target is the result of not being able to see him when he's ethereal. But when you are also blinking, you can see him, so your miss chance is rightly only 20% (per the spell description).

...Except you *can't* see him when you're material and he's ethereal. You're not blinking in sync, after all.

If you drop the assumption that you're blinking in sync with each other, then his blinking actually confers no major advantage to you -- most of the time you'll be out of sync, and he'll still look half-invisible to you because you're returning to the Material while he's going into the Ethereal.
Vegepygmy
11-29-07, 09:03 PM Except you *can't* see him when you're material and he's ethereal. You're not blinking in sync, after all.That's irrelevant. The spell description says you can see creatures that are ethereal 100% of the time; so surely you can also see creatures that are ethereal only 50% of the time.
Black Mantha
11-30-07, 06:08 AM No, if you and your target are both ethereal, you can see and hit each other normally.

If one of you is ethereal, then either suddenly blinking will make the attack succeed.
If both or none are ethereal, then either suddenly blinking will make the attack fail.
So no matter what the situation, if one of you blinks, it doesn't matter who did.

That's irrelevant. The spell description says you can see creatures that are ethereal 100% of the time; so surely you can also see creatures that are ethereal only 50% of the time.

Since you spend about half your time on
the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even
attack ethereal creatures. You interact with
ethereal creatures roughly the same way
you interact with material ones. For
instance, your spells against ethereal
creatures are 20% likely to activate just as
you go material and be lost.

Actually, it doesn't say you can see ethereal creatures when material. Should be a bit clearer, but the first line says to me that being able to see ethereal creatures is due to you being ethereal yourself, and therefore only works 50% of the time. Being able to see ethereal creatures while material would be an extra effect from the spell, and would be mentioned specifically.
That second line is quite deceptive, though. "Roughly the same way", but ethereal creatures only have a 20% miss chance (because they're able to see material creatures), and your non-area, non-targeted attacks have a 50% miss chance.
Vegepygmy
11-30-07, 05:06 PM Should be a bit clearer, but the first line says to me that being able to see ethereal creatures is due to you being ethereal yourself, and therefore only works 50% of the time.I don't disagree with that, but it implies something more: that only working 50% of the time is enough to deny them the benefit of being invisible to you.

It's like watching someone move through a dark room with a strobe light; about 50% of the actual time, you can't see them at
all--but that doesn't really matter, because the 50% you do see is enough to tell you where they are and what they're doing (even though their movements appear to be all herky-jerky).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gonzoron 11-27-07, 11:39 PM	Simple question: What happens when one character casts blink and tries to attack another character who had cast blink?
Vegepygmy 11-28-07, 12:59 AM	I'd go with this, from the spell description: "You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones." In other words, sometimes both of you are material at the same time, and you interact normally. Sometimes both of you are ethereal at the same time, and you interact (pretty much) normally. Sometimes one of you goes ethereal while the other remains material, and that's your 20% miss chance.
zioth 11-28-07, 06:10 PM	Here's a way to handle it: Roll one miss chance for the attacker, and one for the defender. If both are 20 or above, or both are below 20, you're in the same state, so you hit. If you want to be all mathy about it: Chance that you're both ethereal: 0.20.2=0.04 Chance that you're both material: 0.80.8=0.64 Chance to interact normally = 0.64+0.04 = 0.68 Miss chance = 32%, or 30% to make it easier on the dice So an alternative is to call it a 30% miss chance. If you do the same trick with Greater Blink (50%), it doesn't matter if it's put up against Blink or Greater Blink. Either way, it works out to a 50% miss chance.
Vegepygmy 11-29-07, 01:24 AM	Chance that you're both ethereal: 0.20.2=0.04 Chance that you're both material: 0.80.8=0.64 It looks as if you're assuming a blinker is ethereal 20% of the time and material 80% of the time. It's actually 50/50. But in any case, your analysis fails to account for the attacker's ability to time his attacks. If we accepted your premise that the only thing that matters is how much of the time the attacker is ethereal/material, blinkers would suffer a 50% miss chance against their material targets (since they are ethereal half of the time) rather than the 20% they actually suffer. Thus, I think my original conclusion is correct: two blinkers suffer a 20% miss chance against each other, rather than the usual 50%.
Black Mantha 11-29-07, 07:43 AM	Well, if you think about it, your target blinking to or from the ethereal plane has the same effect as you blinking either way. So in effect both see the other blinking at double the frequency. If anything, your miss change will be higher, not lower. But for simplicity, I'd keep it at both 50% miss chance.
Vegepygmy 11-29-07, 02:57 PM	Well, if you think about it, your target blinking to or from the ethereal plane has the same effect as you blinking either way.No, if you and your target are both ethereal, you can see and hit each other normally.
ArcTan 11-29-07, 03:59 PM	The way I'd say it is that since blinking is random, it's impossible to time your blinks to be in "sync", so you don't get any special benefit of blinking against a blinking opponent (why should you? It seems counterintuitive to me that this would somehow be helpful in terms of hitting them). So we just combine the normal rules. Attacker gets a 20% miss chance (because he can sort-of time his own attacks) but defender gets a 50% miss chance on top of that (because the attacker has no control over that blinking).
Vegepygmy 11-29-07, 07:20 PM	The way I'd say it is that since blinking is random, it's impossible to time your blinks to be in "sync", so you don't get any special benefit of blinking against a blinking opponent (why should you? It seems counterintuitive to me that this would somehow be helpful in terms of hitting them).Because part of the 50% miss chance against a blinking target is the result of not being able to see him when he's ethereal. But when you are also blinking, you can see him, so your miss chance is rightly only 20% (per the spell description). Under your method, then, there would be two 20% miss chances--which works out to a 36% overall miss chance. So maybe Zioth's numbers weren't that far off, after all.
ArcTan 11-29-07, 08:21 PM	Because part of the 50% miss chance against a blinking target is the result of not being able to see him when he's ethereal. But when you are also blinking, you can see him, so your miss chance is rightly only 20% (per the spell description). ...Except you can't see him when you're material and he's ethereal. You're not blinking in sync, after all. If you drop the assumption that you're blinking in sync with each other, then his blinking actually confers no major advantage to you -- most of the time you'll be out of sync, and he'll still look half-invisible to you because you're returning to the Material while he's going into the Ethereal.
Vegepygmy 11-29-07, 09:03 PM	Except you can't see him when you're material and he's ethereal. You're not blinking in sync, after all.That's irrelevant. The spell description says you can see creatures that are ethereal 100% of the time; so surely you can also see creatures that are ethereal only 50% of the time.
Black Mantha 11-30-07, 06:08 AM	No, if you and your target are both ethereal, you can see and hit each other normally. If one of you is ethereal, then either suddenly blinking will make the attack succeed. If both or none are ethereal, then either suddenly blinking will make the attack fail. So no matter what the situation, if one of you blinks, it doesn't matter who did. That's irrelevant. The spell description says you can see creatures that are ethereal 100% of the time; so surely you can also see creatures that are ethereal only 50% of the time. Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones. For instance, your spells against ethereal creatures are 20% likely to activate just as you go material and be lost. Actually, it doesn't say you can see ethereal creatures when material. Should be a bit clearer, but the first line says to me that being able to see ethereal creatures is due to you being ethereal yourself, and therefore only works 50% of the time. Being able to see ethereal creatures while material would be an extra effect from the spell, and would be mentioned specifically. That second line is quite deceptive, though. "Roughly the same way", but ethereal creatures only have a 20% miss chance (because they're able to see material creatures), and your non-area, non-targeted attacks have a 50% miss chance.
Vegepygmy 11-30-07, 05:06 PM	Should be a bit clearer, but the first line says to me that being able to see ethereal creatures is due to you being ethereal yourself, and therefore only works 50% of the time.I don't disagree with that, but it implies something more: that only working 50% of the time is enough to deny them the benefit of being invisible to you. It's like watching someone move through a dark room with a strobe light; about 50% of the actual time, you can't see them at all--but that doesn't really matter, because the 50% you do see is enough to tell you where they are and what they're doing (even though their movements appear to be all herky-jerky).