Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkerDreams 06-12-05, 12:58 PM	From the time they start as apprentices to the time they become the mighty spellcasters that shake the land wizards focus their efforts on shaping the world through their magic- both to learn and expand their power, and because that is their greatest tool. Given the depth of their involvement with the Art it seems strange that the things they are least capable of doing are the basics of their craft. As apprentices, before they cast a first level spell, they are struggling to master cantrips. Yet the mightiest mage can use fewer of these paltry tricks than he can the most powerful spells because of bonus spells. Cantrips are, effectively, utility spells. Just as a fighter sets aside his sword and pulls out his dagger for meals and detail work, a wizard’s selection of cantrips are the little details that set him apart from those who work in more mundane ways. To represent the growth in ability to use these lesser spells refer to table 1-1 in the player’s handbook, which gives bonus spells for high prime requisite. To find the number of bonus cantrips add the number of bonus spells the character receives for the levels he or she can cast. More easily, these numbers have been totaled on the table below. Find the highest level of spells the character can cast along the top, and the casting requisite along the left to find the total number of bonus cantrips. This is especially appropriate for wizards` who get a small daily selection of spells but rely on their spells as their sole source of power. Sorcerers, who are closely related to the wizard, only slightly more flexible in their daily use of power, would also be a good class to apply this rule. Technically, any class with the ability to cast 0-level spells could use this bonus progression. However most other classes, even primary casting classes such as druids and clerics, have other abilities and skills they fall back on instead of relying soley on the might of their spellcasting. Table; Bonus cantrips by highest spell level and prime casting requisite. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 12-13 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 14-15 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 16-17 1 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 18-19 1 2 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 20-21 2 3 4 5 6 6 6 6 6 22-23 2 4 5 6 7 8 8 8 8 24-25 2 4 6 7 8 9 10 10 10 26-27 2 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 12 28-29 3 5 7 9 11 13 14 15 16 30-31 3 6 8 10 12 14 15 16 17 32-33 3 6 9 11 13 15 17 18 19 34-35 3 6 9 12 14 16 18 20 21 36-37 4 7 10 13 16 18 20 22 24 38-39 4 8 11 14 17 20 22 24 26 40-41 4 8 12 15 18 21 24 26 28 42-43 4 8 12 16 19 22 25 28 30 44-45 5 9 13 17 21 24 27 30 33
smrtgmp 06-12-05, 03:13 PM	I give proficient spell casters (5th +) unlimited access to certain cantrips. Its hardly an issue of balance, as they are generally used out of combat and in minor roleplaying capacity. I've never seen prestidigitation break a game, so it hardly matters if people can do it at will.
DarkerDreams 06-12-05, 05:11 PM	I had an issue with "special" first level spells in 2nd ed, and I have a problem with "special" zero-level spells in 3rd. I need rules that I can apply fairly to all 0-level spells so my players know what the standard is... I can't see fit to allow "unlimited" 0-level spells at unless at some point higher level spells grant the same... and at no point do spells like acid splash, ray of frost, and disrupt undead (to say nothing of cure minor wounds) become totally insignificant. besides, I give prestidigitaiton a duration of 1 hour per caster level.
Jaid 06-12-05, 06:19 PM	theoretically, following standard progression on the stat modifiers table, you would get one bonus 0th level spell at +0 modifier (presumably already added in because you need that stat at least to cast them), +1 more at +4, +8, +12, etc. or at least, that's how i read it if you were to put it into the chart the same as the other spells. precisely why they didn't do that, i have no idea. i guess they just decided that's how they were going to do it.
RaspK FOG 06-12-05, 07:40 PM	There is something most people seem to forget: basics are not something you can truly go beyond one point of "mastering;" in earlier editions of D&D, where spell slot swapping (that is, using a higher level spell slot to prepare a lower level spell [let alone such mechanics as those found in Arcana Unearthed, not to be confused with any edition of Unearthed Arcana {!}, that allows casters to use multiple lower level spell slots to cast a higher level spell]) was prohibited, players were given a lot more lower level spell slots and there were no "0-level" spells (until Player's Option: Spells and Magic came out, though, and Richard Baker defined cantrips for what they are today, effectively transforming the themes of magic rules in D&D from "Cantrip - 1st-level magic-user spell" to "Prestidigitation; Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 ["Cantrip"]), which was the reason, Rings of Wizardry were so important back then, were mages proved themselves through the use of low-level spells... There are ways to build on those old days by using spell-point systems, rebuilting the old system, or even using the Arcana Unearthed system, but there is a lot to check and read through; some of the old books (like the one from Richard Baker I mentioned earlier) are really interesting readings! :)
RaspK FOG 06-12-05, 07:46 PM	There is something most people seem to forget: basics are not something you can truly go beyond one point of "mastering;" in earlier editions of D&D, where spell slot swapping (that is, using a higher level spell slot to prepare a lower level spell [let alone such mechanics as those found in Arcana Unearthed, not to be confused with any edition of Unearthed Arcana {!}, that allows casters to use multiple lower level spell slots to cast a higher level spell]) was prohibited, players were given a lot more lower level spell slots and there were no "0-level" spells (until Player's Option: Spells and Magic came out, though, and Richard Baker defined cantrips for what they are today, effectively transforming the themes of magic rules in D&D from "Cantrip - 1st-level magic-user spell" to "Prestidigitation; Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 ["Cantrip"]), which was the reason, Rings of Wizardry were so important back then, were mages proved themselves through the use of low-level spells... There are ways to build on those old days by using spell-point systems, rebuilting the old system, or even using the Arcana Unearthed system, but there is a lot to check and read through; some of the old books (like the one from Richard Baker I mentioned earlier) are really interesting readings! :)
DarkerDreams 06-12-05, 07:54 PM	jaid; I'd looked at that and decided I didn't really like it (partially because it gave bonus 0-level spells with a 10 prime casting requisite) RaspK FOG; fine, basics aren't something you'll ever excell at (from watching people learn calculus and having their arithmatic and algebra skills improve I don't agree with you on that, but, we'll work on your premise), but I'm not saying that cantrips are just basics that you're continuing to master- as you become better at spellcasting you should become better at all levels of casting, not just the higher levels. Aside from that, I'm not exactly sure what you're saying except that there's a long tradition of justifying having more bottom level spells available than there are now.
RaspK FOG 06-12-05, 08:22 PM	RaspK FOG; fine, basics aren't something you'll ever excell at (from watching people learn calculus and having their arithmatic and algebra skills improve I don't agree with you on that, but, we'll work on your premise), but I'm not saying that cantrips are just basics that you're continuing to master- as you become better at spellcasting you should become better at all levels of casting, not just the higher levels. Aside from that, I'm not exactly sure what you're saying except that there's a long tradition of justifying having more bottom level spells available than there are now. First of all, what I meant is that, in general, there is only so much mastery you can achieve in the most basic skills (because, you know, you master them and then, well, there is nothing more to master!), and that in earlier editions you got MANY low-level spell slots per se; a wizard had 5 1st-level spell slots when he reached the end of his career (already from 13th level, and the same applies to 2nd- and 3rd-level spells), reached a maximum of 5 spell slots for 4th- and 5th-level spells at 15th-level, and only reached 4 spell slots for 6th-level spells and 2 9th-level spell slots at 20th level! What, back then, you achieved by using your numerous spell slots, you are now expected to achieve, if you choose to do so, by using higher level spell slots, allowing you to heighten, maximise, enlarge, empower, widen, or whatever you like with your spells! For example, a 20th-level wizard now has 4 spell slots of each level plus his alotment of bonus spells; this generally leaves him with at least 1 spell slot for spells levels 1 through 4 (for having a +4 Intelligence, logically), and this could go as high as 1 bonus spell slot for levels 4 to 7 and 2 for level 1 through 3 (considering the possibility of reaching Int +7 not to absurd in 3e). This leaves a wizard with MANY more spell slots to do as he likes, since nothing stops him from using 1st-level spell slots for 0-level spells and going onward...
CryoSilver 06-12-05, 09:14 PM	I think if you really want more cantrips, you can give a number of bonus zero level spell slots equal to the number of 1st level bonus spells you get +1, assuminng you get bonus spells at all (and if you don't, something is really messed up with your caster.)
smrtgmp 06-13-05, 04:16 AM	I had an issue with "special" first level spells in 2nd ed, and I have a problem with "special" zero-level spells in 3rd. I need rules that I can apply fairly to all 0-level spells so my players know what the standard is... I can't see fit to allow "unlimited" 0-level spells at unless at some point higher level spells grant the same... and at no point do spells like acid splash, ray of frost, and disrupt undead (to say nothing of cure minor wounds) become totally insignificant. besides, I give prestidigitaiton a duration of 1 hour per caster level. I only give detect magic, read magic, and prestidigitation. I felt that those represented the foundation of arcane magic, as they are likely the first spell any wizard learns. Only by practicing those can he learn higher magics, and by the time he does he's cast these cantrips so many times that doing so becomes second nature. And I'm sorry, but there certainly becomes a point when ray of frost and disrupt undead become insignifigant.
The Gnome 06-13-05, 05:12 AM	And I'm sorry, but there certainly becomes a point when ray of frost and disrupt undead become insignifigant. I'm sorry but I disagree. Say you have a caster with sneak attack (Arcane Trickster for example). Ray of frost is a ranged touch attack; this means it's easier to hit most monsters and if you use improved (or Greater) invisibility you get your sneak attack! Having unlimited Ray of frost could be VERY :D valuable for such a caster, definitely at higher level with better sneak attack. :D
smrtgmp 06-13-05, 05:55 AM	So use Acid Splash. Acid damage is less commonly resisted and it doesnt allow SR. Vastly superior to Ray of Frost. Furthermore, that is a fairly specific build. For someone without sneak attack dice, attack cantrips quickly become obsolete.
Ra-Tiel 06-13-05, 06:44 AM	Hi. === The group I play with has gone with the following house rule: you don't get any level 0 spells for your class, but instead you gain "3+caster level+ability modifier" level 0 slots. I think this is reasonable, and so far it hasn't even remotely touched the balance of our game. Congratulations! Your wizard can cast acid splash 30 times per day at level 20. And what is that going to do about that old green dragon? Or the cleric 18 of shar? Or the wartroll barbarian 7? Even if the player in our FR party almost always prefers to increase his kill counter instead of buffing/helping the party :rolleyes: [compare sig, quote from FR party wizard], he usually prepares prestidigitation, read magic, detect magic, mage hand,... and so on with that spell slots. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.