Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AdrianLP 08-04-06, 10:07 PM	Hello, I have a new 1st level wizard. My wizard's intelligence is 17. On page 8, Table 1-1, of the players handbook it shows that I get a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level bonus spell. On the first paragraph of that page it states that, "She will not actually get the bonus 2nd-level spell [and 3rd level spell] until she is a 3rd-level [and 5th level] wizard, since that's the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level [and 3rd level] spells." On page 178 of the players handbook, second column, 1st paragraph, it says that the spells are spell slots and "a spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell." So I can't use the bonus spells for a 2nd and 3rd level slot, obviously, but can can I use the 2nd and 3rd level slot to memorize two extra first level spells? The wording is ambiguous. Is there official errata on this matter? Adrian
AdrianLP 08-04-06, 10:32 PM	I found the official answer. No, you can't use the bonus 2nd and 3rd level spells from high intelligence unless you can cast spells of those levels. That is, a first level wizard can't use the bonus 2nd and 3rd level spell to memorize extra first level spells. See: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/MainFAQv06272003.zip I don't like this rule. Adrian
risner 08-04-06, 10:45 PM	House rule it anyway you like, but you can't by RAW use bonus spells until you are high enough to cast spells of that level. It is specifically prohibited on page 8 of PHB. I don't know why it was in the FAQ as it is pretty clear in the PHB: "(She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells."
AdrianLP 08-04-06, 10:57 PM	House rule it anyway you like, but you can't by RAW use bonus spells until you are high enough to cast spells of that level. It is specifically prohibited on page 8 of PHB. I don't know why it was in the FAQ as it is pretty clear in the PHB: "(She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells." What you have quoted doesn't even address my question. It says you can't cast a second level spell till 3rd level, and you can't cast a 3rd level spell till 5th level. Well, duh. It doesn't say anything about using those slots for lower level spells, which you *can* cast. And *this* was my question.
camble 08-04-06, 11:05 PM	Those extra slots effectively don't exsit until you reach the level in witch you can cast them. That is why you can't use them to cast lower level spells
AdrianLP 08-04-06, 11:11 PM	Those extra slots effectively don't exsit until you reach the level in witch you can cast them. That is why you can't use them to cast lower level spells I'll abide by the rules, it just doesn't seem logical. You have a higher intelligence, so you can memorize more. Makes sense. But why at 3rd/5th level your intelligence bonus allows you to memorize more 1st level spells than at first doesn't make sense to me. Your intelligence hasn't increased, so why has the memorization (based on intelligence solely) changed? I assume its just a game mechanic balance thing. The whole memorization thing kinda bugs me. The 1st level warrior can swing his sword to his hearts content. But after the mage casts his two spells (one of which is the bonus), he's completely defenceless for the next 20-odd hours.
ItaraKoturo 08-05-06, 03:30 AM	The whole memorization thing kinda bugs me. The 1st level warrior can swing his sword to his hearts content. But after the mage casts his two spells (one of which is the bonus), he's completely defenceless for the next 20-odd hours. Not necessarily. Yeah, he runs out of his spells-per-day after two uses, but assuming you gave him a light crossbow he can still fire bolts from range like anyone else. At low levels a crossbow in the hands of a mage is nearly as effective as a crossbow in anyone else's hands. And wait until you get to higher levels. The fighter will wish he could muster up as much destruction as you.
camble 08-05-06, 04:27 AM	Or have the best of both worlds and play a fighter/ mage and make them both cry :)
AdrianLP 08-05-06, 04:33 AM	Or have the best of both worlds and play a fighter/ mage and make them both cry :) Best of both worlds? Worst of both, more like it. You have a gimped warrior (<= 4hp every other level), or a gimped mage (very slow and capped spell progression).
Ra-Tiel 08-05-06, 04:38 AM	Best of both worlds? Worst of both, more like it. You have a gimped warrior (<= 4hp every other level), or a gimped mage (very slow and capped spell progression). That's what WotC made the duskblade (PHb2) for. :D
Anauroch 08-05-06, 04:43 AM	I assume its just a game mechanic balance thing. The whole memorization thing kinda bugs me. The 1st level warrior can swing his sword to his hearts content. But after the mage casts his two spells (one of which is the bonus), he's completely defenceless for the next 20-odd hours. Best of both worlds? Worst of both, more like it. You have a gimped warrior (<= 4hp every other level), or a gimped mage (very slow and capped spell progression). Okay, I am happy that you have finally listened to everyone and understood that the rules are clear on the issue when you get your 2nd and higher level bonus spells. Yes, it's for game balance reasons. A fighter/mage, called a gish, can be very effective. Look around on these boards if you like to find appropriate builds. I have the feeling you want to play a wizard but have the feeling that he is soooo weak at low levels? He seems so and probably is IF you wade through a dungeon and have healing potions at the ready. The tank types will rock, and you'll be in the back shooting away with your crossbow a little. But at first level you probably won't have several fights a day! And if it is only one, then drop a sleep spell or color spray on your foes and you might down more than one of them. Take a specialist if you want to have more spells. If you are still unhappy, then ask your DM if he will allow the spell point system for wizards (UA) - this will make wizards VERY powerful though... Here's the Link to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) . Just go ahead and have fun! And believe the other people here - the other characters will envy you your power soon! ;)
ElIsRa 08-05-06, 04:59 AM	Not necessarily. Yeah, he runs out of his spells-per-day after two uses, but assuming you gave him a light crossbow he can still fire bolts from range like anyone else. At low levels a crossbow in the hands of a mage is nearly as effective as a crossbow in anyone else's hands. And wait until you get to higher levels. The fighter will wish he could muster up as much destruction as you. Quit crying. Wizards are SUPPOSED to suck at early levels. That's the punishment you get for having a very powerful character at higher/epic levels.
risner 08-06-06, 10:51 AM	What you have quoted doesn't even address my question. It says you can't cast a second level spell till 3rd level, and you can't cast a 3rd level spell till 5th level. Well, duh. You might want to READ THE BOOK. What I quoted wasn't the whole section. It details in painfully clear text that you do not get bonus spell slots for spell levels you can not currently cast. So your bogus "im going to use 1st level spells in my 2nd and 3rd level spell slots" is bunk.
Anauroch 08-06-06, 02:28 PM	Hey, I've got a cool idea! Ask your DM if he'll allow you to cast the 2nd and 3rd level bonus spells as 1st level bonus spells! With the restriction that they'll stay 1st level bonus spell slots forever... Have fun with this... :P
AdrianLP 08-06-06, 02:38 PM	Hey, I've got a cool idea! Ask your DM if he'll allow you to cast the 2nd and 3rd level bonus spells as 1st level bonus spells! With the restriction that they'll stay 1st level bonus spell slots forever... Have fun with this... :P I am the DM.
AdrianLP 08-06-06, 02:38 PM	You might want to READ THE BOOK. What I quoted wasn't the whole section. It details in painfully clear text that you do not get bonus spell slots for spell levels you can not currently cast. So your bogus "im going to use 1st level spells in my 2nd and 3rd level spell slots" is bunk. I read the book. Its ambigious. The answer comes in official errata *because* the book is ambiguous.
AdrianLP 08-06-06, 02:42 PM	Okay, I am happy that you have finally listened to everyone and understood that the rules are clear on the issue when you get your 2nd and higher level bonus spells. Yes, it's for game balance reasons. If you read back, you'll notice that *I*, before anyone else ansered, answered the question. I found it in errata before anyone answered. As for the rest of your posting, I've been playing D&D for years. I've had all sorts of characters to relatively high levels. I just mages had a Jedi-like (see the Star Wars D20 or D6 system) system for power usage. Seems more usable. I know, I could make house rules to do such, I don't like house rules though. I like playing by *the* rules. That way I don't feel like I'm cheating anything.
AdrianLP 08-06-06, 02:44 PM	Quit crying. I'm sorry. Adults are chatting here. In adult conversations there are often ideas bounced off one another, and in this process one might offer up suggestions or undesirable observations. When you're a big boy or girl, you will come to realise and observe this without confusing it with crying.
Bulletproof_Condom 08-06-06, 03:06 PM	I can learn a kata that has a backflip in it, but that doesn't mean I can do a backflip. Bonus spells only apply if you have at least 0 spells per day of that level. If you have — spells per day of that level, you don't get the bonus spells. This is a bit more obvious when you look at a bard.
AdrianLP 08-06-06, 03:11 PM	I can learn a kata that has a backflip in it, but that doesn't mean I can do a backflip. Bonus spells only apply if you have at least 0 spells per day of that level. If you have — spells per day of that level, you don't get the bonus spells. This is a bit more obvious when you look at a bard. That's not the same thing though. Because come 3rd level, that bonus second level spell can be used to store a 1st level spell.
Anauroch 08-06-06, 03:34 PM	Okay, you're the DM. You want to play by the rules. Everyone tells you the rules are fine as is. You yourself say it's probably for balance reasons. I agree. Now, what's the problem? If you don't want to make a house rule for it, then you'll have to leave it at that. Otherwise just go ahead and change things so that you have fun. Or your players. No-one is hindering you! ;) I like playing by *the* rules. That way I don't feel like I'm cheating anything. Example: 1st level Wizard with Int 18. Not specialized. Normally can cast 2 first level spells. If he'd be able to use the higher level spell slots, he'd have four more spells. That's 6. That's broken. You can houserule it though - the game is all about the fun. ;) But this is the first time I've seen someone bring up the issue. :rolleyes:
DrMorganes 08-06-06, 03:50 PM	That's not the same thing though. Because come 3rd level, that bonus second level spell can be used to store a 1st level spell. Of course it's not the same thing. Bulletproof is speaking of the rather mundane discipline of martial arts as an illustration. None of the illustrations we come up with are going to be "the same thing" when we're talking about arcane magic ;) Bulletproof's example still holds merit, however. One may have a natural aptitude for a given thing (be it arcane magic or martial arts), but one must still possess the ability and/or training necessary to make full use of that natural aptitude. In the case of wizards, the natual aptitude is their intelligence score. The training is, of course, the number of Wizard class levels possessed. Aptitude can only take you so far before training is required, and this concept is illustrated in the wizard class spell progression table. Try this analogy on for size instead: Arcane magic is like bodybuilding. When you first begin, you're relatively weak and can't lift much. Sure, perhaps you have a natural aptitude for strength, but it's nothing compared to what you can accomplish with the proper training. Technique plays a part in lifting as well as raw muscle power. As you train, you can lift the same weight more times, or heavier weight fewer times. And just because you CAN lift 300lbs over your head doesn't mean you're walking around with that much weight all the time. With a wizard, he begins the game able to prepare (lift) a few low-level spells (weights). His natural aptitude (17 INT in your case) grants him a bit more "strength" in terms of an additional Level 1 bonus spell per day. As he trains (gains class levels) he can prepare ("lift") more Level 1 spells in a day. His natural aptitude still plays a part, but he's still not "strong" enough to "lift" a Level 2 spell until he hits Wizard Level 3. At that time, he's build up his arcane "strength" to the point where he can prepare Level 2 spells. His natual aptitude means he can prepare and cast more than the "average" wizard (who only has an INT of 12). Just because he CAN prepare an extra Level 2 spell doesn't necessarily mean he HAS to - hence the ability to fill a Level 2 spell slot with a Level 1 spell. However, he has to train for a while before he gains that slot to begin with, and you can't fill what you don't have! 1st level Wizard with Int 18. Not specialized. Normally can cast 2 first level spells. If he'd be able to use the higher level spell slots, he'd have four more spells. That's 6. That's broken. You can houserule it though - the game is all about the fun. Just to further illustrate WHY this is broken: the level 1 wizard with 18 INT is now essentially 3 times as powerful as a level 1 wizard with an INT of 11, and possessing the Level 1 spellcasting capacity of a Level 7 by-the-RAW wizard! He gives up nothing for this extra power - and in fact is gaining even more in terms of Skill Points. Nope. 1 extra spell per level is a fine compensation. More than that pushes the envelope far too much.
AdrianLP 08-06-06, 03:51 PM	Okay, you're the DM. You want to play by the rules. Everyone tells you the rules are fine as is. You yourself say it's probably for balance reasons. I agree. Now, what's the problem? I'm not sure, you tell me. I've done nothing but reply since I answered my own question. Why do you both drive the conversation, and blame me for replying?
AdrianLP 08-06-06, 04:03 PM	Of course it's not the same thing. You misunderstood. I meant that it was an inaccurate simile. Bulletproof's example still holds merit, however. One may have a natural aptitude for a given thing (be it arcane magic or martial arts), but one must still possess the ability and/or training necessary to make full use of that natural aptitude. In the case of wizards, the natual aptitude is their intelligence score. The training is, of course, the number of Wizard class levels possessed. Aptitude can only take you so far before training is required, and this concept is illustrated in the wizard class spell progression table. Right, but at higher levels those extra slots can be used to store lower level spells... Try this analogy on for size instead: With a wizard, he begins the game able to prepare (lift) a few low-level spells (weights). His natural aptitude (17 INT in your case) grants him a bit more "strength" in terms of an additional Level 1 bonus spell per day. As he trains (gains class levels) he can prepare ("lift") more Level 1 spells in a day. His natural aptitude still plays a part, but he's still not "strong" enough to "lift" a Level 2 spell until he hits Wizard Level 3. At that time, he's build up his arcane "strength" to the point where he can prepare Level 2 spells. His natual aptitude means he can prepare and cast more than the "average" wizard (who only has an INT of 12). Just because he CAN prepare an extra Level 2 spell doesn't necessarily mean he HAS to - hence the ability to fill a Level 2 spell slot with a Level 1 spell. However, he has to train for a while before he gains that slot to begin with, and you can't fill what you don't have! This logic follows fine if that 2nd level slot can only be used for 2nd level spells. However, this slot, at levels >= 3 can be used to store 1st level spells. The purpose of these bonus slots is that "Oh, look, this guy is so intelligent he has a far greater memorization ability then the next wizard." However, at 1st level this isn't true. At 1st level the mage with 18 intelligence cannot memorize any more spells then the wizard with 12 int. However, when both wizards hit 3rd level, suddenly the mage with higher intelligence can memorise more 1st level spells. As this extra memorization is a factor of intelligence, and not of level or experience (a 3rd level mage of 3rd level with a low int might not get the same bonus), it should be consitently applied. In this case study, its not. Suddenly at 3rd level the number of 1st level spells he can memorize takes a dramatic jump (33% more than the mage with low int but of the same level).
ItaraKoturo 08-06-06, 04:30 PM	Quit crying. Wizards are SUPPOSED to suck at early levels. That's the punishment you get for having a very powerful character at higher/epic levels. I'm sorry, what? Who was crying? The post of mine you quoted clearly indicated that I am well aware that wizards are supposed to lag behind the rest of the party at lower levels in exchange for a higher payoff later on. Though, a 1st-level wizard with Sleep or Color Spray can turn the tide of a low-level combat pretty quickly.
Anauroch 08-06-06, 05:05 PM	The purpose of these bonus slots is that "Oh, look, this guy is so intelligent he has a far greater memorization ability then the next wizard." However, at 1st level this isn't true. At 1st level the mage with 18 intelligence cannot memorize any more spells then the wizard with 12 int. However, when both wizards hit 3rd level, suddenly the mage with higher intelligence can memorise more 1st level spells. As this extra memorization is a factor of intelligence, and not of level or experience (a 3rd level mage of 3rd level with a low int might not get the same bonus), it should be consitently applied. In this case study, its not. Suddenly at 3rd level the number of 1st level spells he can memorize takes a dramatic jump (33% more than the mage with low int but of the same level). Okay, this is the last thing I'll say in this thread since you are absolutely right in one aspect. We others were continuing it when you had already finished with it. Sorry, this happens quite often. The above example is a bad one. The wizards are on the same level at 1st level. They start on a similar level and the high intelligence doesn't help the wizard much at this point. Throughout his studies until 3rd level, he's able to get ahead of the wizard with less intelligence. When they reach 3rd level Wizard A (with 14 or higher INT) can memorize one more 2nd level spell than Wizard B (12 INT). Ha! He's the more able Wizard after all! He learned quicker than Wizard B! Now the fact that he can swap this bonus 2nd level slot for another 1st level slot and therebye suddenly memorize more 1st level spells than Mr. B is in no way of interest! He can memorize one more 2nd level spell at 3rd level. He learns quicker because he more intelligent. Even though D&D is more about balance and mechanics, I think in this case a analogy to the real world does make sense. Okay, that's it from me. Have fun. ;)
Nom 08-07-06, 09:20 AM	Note that a first level wizard also gets 3 cantrips. While daze won't win a fight on its own, it sure makes life easier for your warrior types. Several other cantrips are similarly useful.
AdrianLP 08-07-06, 09:24 AM	The above example is a bad one. The wizards are on the same level at 1st level. They start on a similar level and the high intelligence doesn't help the wizard much at this point. Throughout his studies until 3rd level, he's able to get ahead of the wizard with less intelligence. When they reach 3rd level Wizard A (with 14 or higher INT) can memorize one more 2nd level spell than Wizard B (12 INT). Ha! He's the more able Wizard after all! He learned quicker than Wizard B! Now the fact that he can swap this bonus 2nd level slot for another 1st level slot and therebye suddenly memorize more 1st level spells than Mr. B is in no way of interest! He can memorize one more 2nd level spell at 3rd level. He learns quicker because he more intelligent. Even though D&D is more about balance and mechanics, I think in this case a analogy to the real world does make sense. Okay, that's it from me. Have fun. ;) And what of the 15 - 20 years the wizard trained with a mentor to get to 1st level (thinking Dragonlance specifically)? Did the more intelligent wizard gain no advantage over the decade or two? Adrian
Pindar 08-07-06, 09:45 AM	Can I ask a slightly off topic question. Why is there no spell bonus for 0 level spells?
shadow_kras 08-07-06, 10:01 AM	The purpose of these bonus slots is that "Oh, look, this guy is so intelligent he has a far greater memorization ability then the next wizard." However, at 1st level this isn't true. At 1st level the mage with 18 intelligence cannot memorize any more spells then the wizard with 12 int. However, when both wizards hit 3rd level, suddenly the mage with higher intelligence can memorise more 1st level spells. Keep in mind that even if with 18 int you still get only 1 spell slot bonus, at 20 you already get 2 extra slots and 1 extra slot for lvs 2,3,4 and 5 (this last one wasnt available to a 18 int wizard). This represents the inteligence increase of a mage and you can archieve that at lv 8 (2 ability bonus at lv4 and 8). The system has some flaws, but there isnt a way so a game system can be perfect, some rules just dont suit some people. Can I ask a slightly off topic question. Why is there no spell bonus for 0 level spells? Reply With Quote No idea, but seens like someone from WotC believes that cantrips are overpowered...
AdrianLP 08-07-06, 10:41 AM	The system has some flaws, but there isnt a way so a game system can be perfect, some rules just dont suit some people. Ah, a wise answer (read: a diplomatic one). Yes, I can live with this.