Post/Author/DateTime	Post
harveylegs 08-03-06, 04:57 AM	Quick question from a noob player here. I've got a level 1 cleric with wis 16 who gets 1 bonus spell each of 1st 2nd & 3rd levels. My DM said that my bonus 2nd & 3rd level spells are basically moot until I can cast them according to the cleric spells per day chart. I was kinda bummed cause I thought that I'd either just be able to prepare and cast those 2 spells (thus, being BONUS spells) or at least be able to "downgrade" those slots to load up more level 1 or 0 spells. It feels counter-intuitive to me because other classes like fighters get their full ability score bonuses from the get go. For instance, we have a fighter with str 20 who get his full +5 and can drop CR 1 foes in one hit all day long, meanwhile, my 16 wis is basically a waste at this level as I'm basically casting nothing needing a wis score above 11. Can someone clarify this for me? Thanks in advance.
Thurbane 08-03-06, 05:13 AM	Your DM is 100% correct. I'm sure someone will post the relevant quote from the SRD to back him up shortly...
ChinchillaofDoom 08-03-06, 05:17 AM	Unfortunately, your DM is right, you dont get to play with those 2nd and 3rd level bonus slots quite yet. But having all that wisdom adds to your DC for spell savings throws, your Will save, and is so handy for later levels, so it's definately not useless.
Mordent_Sage 08-03-06, 05:19 AM	Sorry man, but your DM's right. The DM's always right, but in this case, the RAW (rules as written) say he's right too. You don't get your bonus spells for high Wis (or Int for wizards, Cha for Sor) until you can cast that level. In your clerics case, he's just not got that much favour with his god, and so can't call down divine power of that magnitude, no matter how wise he is. But fear not! Your Wis isn't wasted. The DC for spells is 10+spell level+modifier, so your spells are harder to resist because of your good Wis score. The way the power of characters goes, is at low levels barbarians are most powerful (rage! hell yeah!), then fighters overtake them (those bonus feats stack up), then, at about 10-15th level, the pure casters become the most powerful, and stay that way - and you need your high Wis to cast the spells at the higher levels. NB - make sure that you increase your Wis quickly enough to be able to cast the spells - you only get a point every 4 levels, and you need Wis 19 to cast the biggest spells. Planning ahead - the best friend a prepare-spells caster has. EDIT - wow. Two people posting while I was typing. Curse my long-winded-ness...
SoldierOfFortune187 08-03-06, 05:22 AM	While you do indeed recieve bonus spell slots, they do not arrive in the manner that you might wish them to. Having a high caster stat modifier grants you a number of bonus spell slots. However, to access those spell slots you need to first be able to cast spells of that level. While a truly brilliant wizard or wise cleric indeed has the potential for extra spells of higher levels, they simply do not have the training/control/divine approval necessary to prepare those higher level spells... yet. While this may seem counterintuitive as you said, keep in mind that spellcasters (especially those with a full 9-level progression) ramp up in power very quickly the higher spell level they are able to cast. A first level caster with access to 3rd-level spells, even one, suddenly swings game balance way off. As for fighters and melee types making full use of their modifiers right away, that is not entirely true. While they may get a bonus to hit and damage on their one attack, they do not gain multiple attacks (iterative) just for having a high bonus to hit. They must accumulate a +6 base attack bonus for this to happen. Base attack bonuses are calculated based solely on levels, not bonuses and modifiers. Hope this helps explain it a bit better
Yaeri 08-03-06, 05:30 AM	Your DM is right. It's with spellcasters exactly as with fighters. Spellcasters get the full benefits of their high ability score: namely a bonus to their spell DC and bonus spells but only of the levels they can cast. Fighters get the full benefits of their high ability score: namely a bonus to their to hit and damage but only with attacks they can already make. So a level 1 fighter with a BAB of 1 and a +5 STR bonus (total +6) doesn't get an extra attack yet. He only gets that at level 6, when his BAB reaches 6. Just like the spellcaster has to reach the appropriate levels to be able to cast his new spells.
DM_Greatness 08-03-06, 05:34 AM	If you guys were playing with the 25 pt buy, or the 3d6 dice system, LIKE THE GAME INTENDED, then this would be must less of a problem. If that fighter wanted a 20 str with a 25 pit buy, he would have to be a half-orc, and really, really pay the price for it. In the end, that price should be the end of his character.
harveylegs 08-03-06, 05:39 AM	I'll admit I'm a bit sad. But thanks for the super quick responses! They've cleared up all my confusion. Guess I'll just try to remain humble and conservative in my spell use until I hit those higher levels.
DM_Greatness 08-03-06, 06:38 AM	I'll admit I'm a bit sad. But thanks for the super quick responses! They've cleared up all my confusion. Guess I'll just try to remain humble and conservative in my spell use until I hit those higher levels. Damm it! You are such a nice guy. Please forgive any harsh tones my post might have had. Those people in that group that you have should be flip-over-heels happy to have a player like you in their group. As a bonus, you even want to play a cleric. You sir are like a dream player for most groups. IMO the fault is mostly your DM's. When you take the time and jump to the game with any serious depth, you come to understand that when you are running characters with excessive ability stats, or wealth, that you are really disrupting the balance of the game. The game is actually written around a 25 pt buy system. So, in balanced D&D a 14 is quite an impressive stat, and a 16 is for the truly exceptional. Having fighters with a 20 str at 1st level is just about a massive no-go. And it isn't fair for you to have to compete with that. Just think about it for a second. Should any character be dropping mosters equal to his challenge rate at will?