Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psychoray 02-21-05, 09:20 AM	Do they stack with spells/equipment? (Bull's strength/Belt of x strength +5)
Kaboth 02-21-05, 09:35 AM	Do they stack with spells/equipment? (Bull's strength/Belt of x strength +5) I beleive they all stack, ability bonuses that is. I am at school so I dont have my books with me. I need to look at that, but I think if you had a girdle of Giant Str and Guantlets of Ogre power the ability enahncements stack. I could be wrong. I think the ability score increases from magic items and wish and tomes and such are all unamed bonuses. A spell like Bull's str may not stack with itself, but I beleive it would stack with magic items.
Natalis 02-21-05, 09:51 AM	Magic Items & spells do NOT stack if they apply the same type of bonus. Bull's Strength and a Belt of giant strength both apply an enhancement bonus and therefore do not stack. Wish is not an unnamed bonus. It is an inherent bonus. as are those that come from tomes. At least according to 3.5. Only dodge, most circumstance and racial bonuses stack. Only the better bonus applies. (for instance if you have bracers of armor +2 and cast mage armor (which is +4) mage armor supercedes your bracers. But if your mage armor get's dispelled you still retain the +2 of your bracers...so doubling up isn't always a bad idea :) )
Kaboth 02-21-05, 10:04 AM	But inherent bonuses stack is the ultimate answer.
questionc 02-21-05, 10:09 AM	Yes, if you Wish for a Str bonus, then the bonus you get from wish stacks with Bull's Strength. 5 wishes: +5 Inherent Bonus to Str Bull's Strength: +4 Enhancement Bonus to Str Belt of Giant Strength: +4 Enhancement Bonus to Str Enlarge Person: +2 Size Bonus to Str All of these stack except for Bull's Strength and the Belt of Giant Strength, due to the Bonus type.
Kaboth 02-21-05, 10:10 AM	what about if you wish for an ability score increase and then get a tome that increases the same ability score?
Racinante 02-21-05, 10:16 AM	what about if you wish for an ability score increase and then get a tome that increases the same ability score? They do not stack. Only the greater applies. The limit on inherent bonuses is +5.
Zherog 02-21-05, 12:18 PM	Kaboth - if the bonus type is the same, it doesn't stack. It's really that simple. You only ever have to remember two exceptions to this rule: Dodge bonuses to AC, and circumstance bonuses as long as they are from different circumstances.
Kaboth 02-21-05, 01:05 PM	Kaboth - if the bonus type is the same, it doesn't stack. It's really that simple. You only ever have to remember two exceptions to this rule: Dodge bonuses to AC, and circumstance bonuses as long as they are from different circumstances. Thanks a ton! I am reading tons of stuff and learning a lot, and I still uncertain about certain things as I have not had a chance to go over them yet. But that clarifies alot about stacking issues.
Liox 02-23-05, 12:29 PM	Why is this so? If it was so - than it would be simply to permanency a Bull Strength. Why is there a need for one to Wish a +5 Strength bonus?
cwslyclgh 02-23-05, 12:46 PM	wish and bulls strength stack because wish provides an inherient bonus, while bulls strength provides an enhancement bonus
kennychuckm 02-23-05, 03:09 PM	what about if you wish for an ability score increase and then get a tome that increases the same ability score? If you wished for +1 to a score, and then found a tome that was a +4 to the same score, wouldn't that allow you to have +5 to that score? Or if you found five +1 tomes over a long period of time, wouldn't they all apply? I thought the only time they wouldn't stack was if it would take you over a +5 total inherent bonus. That's how my group has always read/played it.
Beamup 02-23-05, 03:15 PM	If you wished for +1 to a score, and then found a tome that was a +4 to the same score, wouldn't that allow you to have +5 to that score? Or if you found five +1 tomes over a long period of time, wouldn't they all apply? I thought the only time they wouldn't stack was if it would take you over a +5 total inherent bonus. That's how my group has always read/played it. While this is an eminently reasonable house rule, the RAW really are quite clear. Bonuses of the same type do not stack unless otherwise stated. No rule states that inherent bonuses stack. Therefore inherent bonuses do not stack.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-23-05, 03:18 PM	That's how my group has always read/played it. As per the RAW, this is incorrect. Bonuses of the same type overlap (the highest applies), they don't stack (you add them all together). The reason for this is that ability bonuses increase exponentially. If you calculate it, it's much less expensive to buy three [b]Belt of Giant Strength +2[/i] than one [b]Belt of Giant Strength +6[/i]. [12,000gp vs. 36,000gp] If the bonuses stacked, then people would be running around with multiple items that each grant +2 to an ability = uber bonuses for cheap. Wish functions the way it does in order to keep high inherent bonuses in the hands of high-level characters. Tome of Clear Thought +5 until Epic levels.] Otherwise things can get pretty crazy.
Beamup 02-23-05, 03:24 PM	Bonuses of the same type overlap (the highest applies), they don't stack (you add them all together). The reason for this is that ability bonuses increase exponentially. If you calculate it, it's much less expensive to buy three [b]Belt of Giant Strength +2[/i] than one [b]Belt of Giant Strength +6[/i]. [12,000gp vs. 36,000gp] If the bonuses stacked, then people would be running around with multiple items that each grant +2 to an ability = uber bonuses for cheap. Although this argument does not apply at all to inherent bonuses. The price of an inherent bonus DOES increase linearly rather than quadratically. (Which is, technically, NOT the same as exponentially. An exponential increase is much faster.) Inherent bonuses not stacking has no effect on when you can get a particular bonus - you couldn't get a +5 inherent bonus any earlier if they stacked. The only effect it really has is to make it extremely costly to build it up gradually. As-is, you really want to go straight from a +0 to a +5. No other bonus type acts that way - they're all designed to make it desirable to build up gradually. The primary implication of them not stacking is that bonuses less than +5 are, in the long run, a complete waste of resources. Which is highly undesirable IMO.
kennychuckm 02-23-05, 11:14 PM	Hmm. After reading the wish spell descripition I'm inclined to agree that my interpretation is wrong by a strict interpretation of the rules. However, I also think that that seems awfully silly. That would mean you would have to be less than 1000 XP away from lvl 21 before you could make a +4 tome, less than 1000 XP from lvl 26 to make a +5 tome since you aren't allowed to drop a lvl from making items. Granted, items that powerful aren't supposed to be common, but that seems like they wouldn't exist at all.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-23-05, 11:30 PM	<snip> since you aren't allowed to drop a lvl from making items. However, you are allowed to "save up" experience points (and not advance to the next level) in order to spend that much XP. So if I'm a 17th-level spellcaster, and I get 17,000xp (to 153,000 total XP), I can stay 17th-level and continue "saving" XP until I have another 10,000xp (163,000 total), then spend 25,000xp to craft a Tome +5 (or cast Wish 5x in a row, dropping me back down to 138,000xp, still 17th level. Dunno how feasible that is, but you can do it according to the RAW. I still don't know why any spellcaster would even craft a Tome or Manual for sale, as opposed to using it him/herself.... I'm sure some NPCs have reasons.
Racinante 02-24-05, 10:39 AM	Hmm. After reading the wish spell descripition I'm inclined to agree that my interpretation is wrong by a strict interpretation of the rules. However, I also think that that seems awfully silly. That would mean you would have to be less than 1000 XP away from lvl 21 before you could make a +4 tome, less than 1000 XP from lvl 26 to make a +5 tome since you aren't allowed to drop a lvl from making items. Granted, items that powerful aren't supposed to be common, but that seems like they wouldn't exist at all. You can also create 5 wish scrolls and then use them to give yourself the +5 bonus. Difficult and painful, but can be done before level 26.
Snarf 02-24-05, 03:41 PM	One other interesting question is whether, by the RAW, one could read a +3 Tome, then immediately burn two Wishes off a ring, to gain a +5 total. Since the Tome is (essentially) like making 3 Wishes, and Wishes made in quick succession stack up to +5, that could be the equivalent of making 5 Wishes in succession. Or am I missing a gotcha here? Another interesting point is that WotC Customer Support told me that if you Polymorph, Shapechange, Wild Shape, etc. you don't retain your inherent bonuses to physical stats, because the physical stats of the new form are replacements (rather than some sort of stacking bonus). You do retain any inherent bonuses to mental stats because those are retained in the new form. A disturbing corollary to this would be the loss of inherent bonuses to physical stats when one is Reincarnated! (Unless you Wished youself back to your original form.)
eRaz0r 02-24-05, 04:14 PM	Although this argument does not apply at all to inherent bonuses. The price of an inherent bonus DOES increase linearly rather than quadratically. (Which is, technically, NOT the same as exponentially. An exponential increase is much faster.) (off-topic) Actually, a quadratic increase is an exponential increase where the exponent is 2, is it not ? Inherent bonuses not stacking has no effect on when you can get a particular bonus - you couldn't get a +5 inherent bonus any earlier if they stacked. The only effect it really has is to make it extremely costly to build it up gradually. As-is, you really want to go straight from a +0 to a +5. No other bonus type acts that way - they're all designed to make it desirable to build up gradually. Exactly. It's also been said that you can stack wishes for the +1 inherent bonus, as long as they're cast with no break between them. This means you don't need the Tome +5 as long as you have 5 9th level slots (or enough scrolls to make up to 5) so you can cast them all in a row. This relegates this technique to very high level (or extremely wealthy) characters. The primary implication of them not stacking is that bonuses less than +5 are, in the long run, a complete waste of resources. Which is highly undesirable IMO. Well, it does have the effect of keeping Wished ability scores out of the game till much later. I'm not sure if this is terrible, or just merely a little disappointing. I remember the old rules where Wish didn't cost XP but once you hit 18 in an attribute it took 10 wishes to get to 19. What a joke that was.
Beamup 02-24-05, 05:18 PM	(off-topic) Actually, a quadratic increase is an exponential increase where the exponent is 2, is it not ? No. You're thinking of a polynomial, not an exponential. An exponential increase is of the form e^x. Much faster than any polynomial. Well, it does have the effect of keeping Wished ability scores out of the game till much later. I'm not sure if this is terrible, or just merely a little disappointing. I remember the old rules where Wish didn't cost XP but once you hit 18 in an attribute it took 10 wishes to get to 19. What a joke that was. Its only effect along those lines is due to what I said - as soon as you get a +2, that XP or gold you spent on getting a +1 is totally wasted. Which discourages people from getting +1s ever, whether it be from a tome (which you could have sold) or Wishes.
kingrthr3 02-24-05, 07:18 PM	Dunno how feasible that is, but you can do it according to the RAW. I still don't know why any spellcaster would even craft a Tome or Manual for sale, as opposed to using it him/herself.... I'm sure some NPCs have reasons. I've never played in a campaign where tomes were available for purchase, let alone as treasure. It seems ludicrous to me that you would ever find a tome as treasure. Who would ever buy or make one and just leave it lying around without using it? I don't even think it's reasonable to have them ever be made in the first place. For one thing, in my opinion, arch-wizards probably aren't desperate enough for money to trade 25,500XP for 137,500 gold.
Kaboth 02-24-05, 07:22 PM	I've never played in a campaign where tomes were available for purchase, let alone as treasure. It seems ludicrous to me that you would ever find a tome as treasure. Who would ever buy or make one and just leave it lying around without using it? I don't even think it's reasonable to have them ever be made in the first place. For one thing, in my opinion, arch-wizards probably aren't desperate enough for money to trade 25,500XP for 137,500 gold. Well sometimes they can be used as rewards, or someone made one and never got a chance to use it, etc....
Patrick Draken-Korin 02-24-05, 11:10 PM	Well sometimes they can be used as rewards, or someone made one and never got a chance to use it, etc.... yeah, either a made to order book (at swordpoint) or made for personal use, but some adventures just rang the doorbell. either works
Lt Roan 02-25-05, 08:21 AM	Ok you have alredy pointed out that you have to use 5 wishs to get +5 so that is 1 a wish and that is stacking no matter how you cut. But I to say by the rules the wish your makeing is just an overlap of what you just made wishing for +1 then +2 etc. But the books are just like wishing and it thats wish to make it right so why can't you use the books as the first set of wishes? And nobody have put these in the game for reward? if you put a ring of 3 wishs in the game you might as well put a +3 book in there. If nothing else for a change of pace. Ok don't jusmp on me I havn't put a book in my game seince way back in 2nd and I say way back because lets face it, it was a diffrent lvl of power in 2nd. Just my 2 copper
Natalis 02-25-05, 08:38 AM	Ok you have alredy pointed out that you have to use 5 wishs to get +5 so that is 1 a wish and that is stacking no matter how you cut. But I to say by the rules the wish your makeing is just an overlap of what you just made wishing for +1 then +2 etc. But the books are just like wishing and it thats wish to make it right so why can't you use the books as the first set of wishes? And nobody have put these in the game for reward? if you put a ring of 3 wishs in the game you might as well put a +3 book in there. If nothing else for a change of pace. Ok don't jusmp on me I havn't put a book in my game seince way back in 2nd and I say way back because lets face it, it was a diffrent lvl of power in 2nd. Just my 2 copper I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. The reason that multiple wishes cast in immediate succession result in a stacking bonus is that the spelldescription says so. A book takes a while to read....it's gaining wisdom or insight over a period of time...it's very different from casting a wish..(every class can use tomes for example..) and wishes aren't alway used for gaining inherent bonuses...i've seen lot's of people use wishes for multiple purposes...
Lt Roan 02-25-05, 09:45 AM	ok the slim fast. Your wish overlaps. Or book overlaps if you read a higher one. But you use wish to make it right? So you can use the wish to pick up where the item useing wish left off. Becuase you use the same bonus and a wish or is priestly counterpart is the only way to raise it. So bouns over the same type don't stack but overlap....nevermind I have to goto work.
okpokalypse 02-25-05, 10:06 AM	However, you are allowed to "save up" experience points (and not advance to the next level) in order to spend that much XP. So if I'm a 17th-level spellcaster, and I get 17,000xp (to 153,000 total XP), I can stay 17th-level and continue "saving" XP until I have another 10,000xp (163,000 total), then spend 25,000xp to craft a Tome +5 (or cast Wish 5x in a row, dropping me back down to 138,000xp, still 17th level. Dunno how feasible that is, but you can do it according to the RAW. I still don't know why any spellcaster would even craft a Tome or Manual for sale, as opposed to using it him/herself.... I'm sure some NPCs have reasons. Just to chime in, the XP cost for creating items is rediculous. While the cost of items goes up exponentially (often by a factor of 2), the XP cost absolutely should not. Having to burn a levels worth of xp for an item is, in principle, silly. How does one lose ability by crafting something? Does a person who performs a great dance lose a rank? Does a person who crafts a masterwork item lose something? Why magic items? It doesn't make sense. I've heard the argument that a player powers the item with his essence, and I think that's a load of bs. An item is powered by the spells and enchanting ability the enchanter possesses. Now i understand the game needed checks and balances, but _if_ WotC had to use XP as a balancing factor, they could have kept it reasonable. While it makes sense market prices of items grow exponentially, it does not make sense that XP spent should. At level 6, creating +2 Weapon drains 320 xp. About 5.3% of a caster's level. By level 9 creating +3 Weapon drains 720 xp. About 8.0% of a caster's level. At 12, +4 costs one 1280xp - now over 10% of the level. As you reach higher levels, the cost of xp of items gets really insane. Fortunately, my DM has recognized this and because creating, say a +4 weapon, takes 32 days of enchanting and 16,000 gp in raw material costs, he's reduced the xp costs listed. He further reduces it by making special components available in the world for me to find and use in the creation process that further reduce the xp cost. Usually, in the end, the cost comes out to be about 100xp per bonus for higher weapons and armor, and a bit more when it comes to wondrous items and such - but thankfully I'll never see a 25,000 xp cost to create an item unless it's an artifact.
eRaz0r 02-25-05, 11:15 AM	Ok you have alredy pointed out that you have to use 5 wishs to get +5 so that is 1 a wish and that is stacking no matter how you cut. But I to say by the rules the wish your makeing is just an overlap of what you just made wishing for +1 then +2 etc. B Read Wish again. It specifically says a) You can cast Wishes in immediate succession to give yourself a larger inherent bonus. b) Inherent bonuses do not stack. c) An Inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for any one ability score. The only reasonable way to interpret this is that Wish allows a single loophole by which you can get more than +1 inherent bonus. No other way of accumulating inherent bonuses is allowed. You cannot use Tomes in quick succession to accumulate inherent bonuses which stack with each other. You cannot get more than +5 in this manner either. Casting Wish multiple times *in a row* is a way of making an inherent bonus larger - not of stacking them together. It's quite specifically worded that way. Beamup Thanks - yes I was thinking of polynomial. Damn. Also - I agree with you that this was the effect, but wasn't sure if it was so terrible that the effect happens, or simply a little disappointing.. :) Finally - Tomes are, unfortunately, stupid as implemented. There's no way that anyone capable of making them, would. Consider this : To make a Tome of +5 you need to know Wish (or miracle). If you know Wish, and have Scribe Scroll you can make a scroll of Wish for 1912 gp 5 sp and 153 XP (+the XP of the wish itself 5000). This takes 4 days, as the base price is only 3825 gp. Lets assume you're a 17th level Wizard and don't have 28 or more INT (which may be completely wrong, many Wizard builds have more at this level from items etc) That gives you one 9th level slot per day. So to get a +5 bonus you need only 4 Scrolls, because you're going to cast the last Wish from your prepared slot. So you burn 5153 XP and spend 1912.5 gp and you've got one scroll. Go adventure some more, earn that back, and do it again. You're friends are all 18th level by the time you've made all 4 scrolls, but now the XP gravy train kicks in and you start earning XP faster. Then, one day, you get up, memorize Wish, and then cast from all 4 scrolls in quick succession, ending with your memorized Wish and BANG - +5 Inherent bonus. Total XP Spent 25612. Total Gold Spent = 7650. Total Time Spent = 16 days crafting. Compare that with the Tome+5 Total XP = 25500 (it's a little cheaper, except you need all that XP at once) Total Gold in Materials = 6250 (as above, but cheap at this level either way) Time = 138 days crafting. Why so long ? Because unlike scrolls, the Base Price of a wondrous item is the market price, despite any XP weightings. At least, I can't find the rules that say unusual XP costs affect the crafting time. So even if the crafting time for the tome is less than 16 days, it still gives no real advantage over the scroll scribing method, because the scroll option doesn't require you to spend the XP and gold all up front. It also means you've got a scroll after 4 days. If worse comes to worst, that scroll Wish can be used as a regular Wish, with all it's power, which gives you flexibility and power as an adventurer. Oh - and Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free at 1st level. Not every wizard will have Craft Wondrous Item. So what's the advantage of making a Tome? I can't see any. (Edit - And it takes a month to read the Tome to gain it's benefits, - vs 5 rounds of Wishing)
Snarf 02-25-05, 03:24 PM	Personally I find it funny that the guy who wrote the tome of wisdom +5 can gain wisdom by reading what he just wrote, over the course of a month no less. I guess one could roleplay it that he created a blank tome, a magical vessel that through some ritual during item creation inhales the eternal wisdom of the universe, converting a part of it into words on the page...or something....
WarsawAtWork 02-26-05, 04:01 AM	You should be able to make a +1 tome without reading it, then later upgrade it to +2, then later to +3, just like upgrading a +2 Headband to +4. Also, clerics would more likely make the tome because Miracle can't raise ablility scores like Wish can. So that's where most of the Tomes would come from. WarsawAtWork
ArochanoX 02-26-05, 04:37 AM	Inherent bonus is instantaneous Enchantment bonus is continuous (or even permanent whatever) Circumstance bonus is connected to certain situation Dodge bonus is skill etc. Tha main difference with these four is that Inherent and Enchantment are magical bonuses, the other two are not. Inherent bonus is instantaneous - it cannot be undone, dispelled, countered etc. It's permanent and you can't lose it. Enchantment bonus is continuous - it can be dispelled, atimagicked and taken away by other means. Dodge bonus is skill and the more skillful you are the better you are, that's why dodge bonus does stack. Magic always overlaps - if youd cast two mage armors, you'd have 2 shimmering force armors over you, but if one armor has a hole to stick a spear through, the other armor also has the same weak spot. I hope this answers
Snarf 03-01-05, 02:25 AM	I don't think inherent bonuses are magical. At least, not in the sense that they radiate magic, go away in an antimagic/null magic field, etc. How about, nonmagical bonuses that primarily come about by way of magic.
Max the Immortal 03-01-05, 03:46 PM	Here's some food for thought: If I recall correctly, the spell description of Wish uses the words "five Wishes cast in rapid succession" or something to that effect. The spell does not specify that they all need to be cast by the same caster or come from the same source. You could, in theory, have five mages each cast one Wish to give a single character a +5 inherent bonus to an ability score. I imagine it would be much easier to find five mages willing to cast Wish once (for a fee) than it would be to find one mage willing to cast Wish five times (for a big fee). If one or more of those mages owes you a favor, you could save some cash while you're at it.
eRaz0r 03-01-05, 03:59 PM	Better yet, each of the Five Mages agrees to turn up the next day and do it again. That way each of them gets the inherent +5 to at least one stat (more if they can afford to do it). It still costs 25000 xp for each of them, which might be a bit much to expect unless they were an adventuring group and went out adventuring in between. Hmm - that would be cool.