Boost for save DCs? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Boost for save DCs? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Burdell
08-29-06, 02:36 PM There seem to be spells to boost to hit, AC, saves, etc. on a temporary basis.

Is there a good way (spells, feats) to increase a save DC for a particular spell when needed? I haven't seen much other than the Spell Focus type feats which let you boost one school's save DCs by +1.

I'm particularly interested in this for an arcane caster.
tarkin
08-29-06, 02:54 PM Besides the many feats (not just that one) and Prestige Classes that do that, usually you do it in reverse.

I.E. Give the bad guy a penalty to his saves instead of a boost to yours.
Rerednaw
08-29-06, 02:58 PM There seem to be spells to boost to hit, AC, saves, etc. on a temporary basis.

Is there a good way (spells, feats) to increase a save DC for a particular spell when needed? I haven't seen much other than the Spell Focus type feats which let you boost one school's save DCs by +1.

I'm particularly interested in this for an arcane caster.

Raise (via spell or item) your intelligence. Even Fox's Cunning will give you an effective +2 to the DC.

If you are a sorcerer and have the Heighten Spell feat you can do it on the fly.

I think the Beguiler (PHB II) has some operative ability which requires the target to be flat-footed.

That's all I can think of as far as low-level/low cost.
Witch
08-29-06, 05:08 PM The Fatespinner Pr. C. is good at this.
Dheran
09-01-06, 04:41 AM If you're a multiclass cleric/arcane caster you can take advantage of the granted powers of your two clerical domains. For example:
Domination: You gain Spell Focus (enchantment) as a bonus feat.
Illusion: You cast all illusion spells at +1 caster level.
Oracle: You cast divination spells at +2 caster levels.
Purification: You cast abjuration spells at +1 caster level.
Summoner: You cast all conjuration (summoning) and conjuration (calling) spells at +2 caster levels.
Tyranny: Add +1 to the save DC of any enchantment (compulsion) spell you cast.
The cost is one level in your arcane class, but the benefits include +2 to your Fortitude and Will saves plus some useful clerical spells. Also three levels of cleric will set you up for Mystic Theurge, which is a good recipe for becoming a very strong caster (both arcane and divine).
SamiPeikko
09-01-06, 05:12 AM Most effects that boost Save DC:s were either removed in conversion from 3.0 to 3.5ed, (like PrC abilities, that now give caster level bonus instead), or decreased (like Spell Focus feats). This was done for a good reason.

Best way to increase your save DC:s after the stat boost item and Spell Focus feats still staying with strict 3.5 is to buy a Tome +4-5 for the right atribute. It is a bit pricey, but trust me it is worth it.
Fruscht
09-01-06, 05:15 AM Check out the Spell Enhancer spell from the Spell Compendium. Casting it is a swift action, and it increases the Save DC for the next spell you cast by 1.
Burdell
09-01-06, 11:35 AM Hmm, ok, thanks for the suggestions folks. I realize that boosting my caster stat is the obvious way. Last campaign I was in that got to high levels we were fighting things above our nominal CR most of the time (we were fairly powerful due to some house rules, etc., but hadn't gotten the opportunity to increase casting stats tremendously), so any spells that allowed saves got fairly pointless. And bumping save DCs by 1-2 wasn't going to fix that, I was wondering about something in the 5-10 range.

I haven't seen a lot of spells that would pay off to use the Heighten feat with; if there is a 3rd level spell that does something nasty and I'm willing to Heighten it to 7th level, there is probably a spell at 7th that does something even nastier and already has the higher save DC.

No Prestige classes this time around, so that limits the options to spells, feats or items. And I can't see using Spell Focus feats on all the different schools I expect to be casting from. . .
Furion Thamior
09-01-06, 12:16 PM A little bit of finesse and strategy can go a long way in helping your spells get through, even without spell save DC increasing abilities. Picking spells that simply allow no save is a good start, however in general these spells will only affect a single target and probably require a touch attack of some sort. A few examples include the Orb spells (spell compendium, also ignore SR), Scorching Ray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Polar Ray, the Power Words (note the hit point limits on these, however), and Enervation.

A great deal of mass-effect spells, however do allow saves, the trick is to choose the right spell for the right target. Common sense, a good memory, and taking some Knowledge skills are going to give you the tools to identify which groups are targets are going to be most vulnerable to your attacks.

If you have problems, start smacking things with a metamagic'ed up Enervation (coupled with a quickened True Strike, if needed) and other curses to knock down the saves by a few points.
wookibus
09-01-06, 12:21 PM In the book of Eldritch Magic there are feats (lace spell good/evil/law/chaos) which grants +2 DC's against the oppossing alignment (i.e. if you choose good, then all DC's go up against evil creatures). This works well if you are constantly going against foes with a particular alignment.

It is tougher to raise your DC's, rather than debuffing the enemy's saving throws as mentioned earlier.
runestar
09-01-06, 10:46 PM Aye, you might want to consider spending a round or 2 lowering an enemy's save via spells such as limited wish/enervation first.:) If you are still not confident of your save dcs...
Mandarbgrim
09-01-06, 10:53 PM hmmmm..Get a Hexblade Cohort using the Hexblade specific feats from dragon magazine #??? & the Darkcompanion alternate class ability from the PHB2. If you combine that with Quickened low level debuffs that don't allow saves <Ray of Clumsiness comes to mind.> then their saves could drop close to zero.

Or if the DM will go for adding a spell to the Hexblade spell list, the Hexblade can use the Ray of Clumsiness.

Another thought is poisoned weapons if you haven't thought of that. Eh...seems to be getting into an alignment sketchy issue for some, though.
SageBahamut
09-01-06, 11:39 PM I've had this problem myself. All the bad guys' saves go up with HD (10+1/2HD+whatever), but yours are stuck forever at 10+minimum HD+whatever. I've never found an efficient way to compensate for this within the rules, sad to say. They all involve wasting precious feats and spells-per-day to effect a boost of maybe 1 or 2, hardly earth-shattering, especially at higher levels. (i.e., all the methods listed thus far)

My proposed solution - which received only brief and unhelpful attention here but has served me well in the past - was an item called a Ring of Spell Power. Pricing it as a weapon bonus (X^2*2000gp) worked well for me - I spent however much I could afford and got enough of a boost to stay competitive without being hopelessly outclassed or horrendously powerful. I wouldn't necessarily allow them as starting equipment, due simply to the odd side-effects of someone blowing half their starting gold on a ring +lots. :) Otherwise it's the best solution I've managed to houserule thus far.

Perhaps the more obvious thing is to say that spell-level has no effect on saves, and make the DCs for all of the player's powers 10+1/2HD+mods too. I haven't playtested this approach yet, but it seems valid considering it's how monster powers - even those that are spell-like - work.
scout989
09-01-06, 11:49 PM Quick question to add to the discussion- what base save DCs (i.e. before adding spell level) are people used to as the standard in the campaigns they play in for a 10th level caster? 15th? 20th?
runestar
09-02-06, 01:26 AM Oh, and just to point out: try to target their weak save if possible.;)
Quick question to add to the discussion- what base save DCs (i.e. before adding spell level) are people used to as the standard in the campaigns they play in for a 10th level caster? 15th? 20th?
You have 5th lv spells. Key spellcasting score should be around 18(base16 +2 points from lving up), you should at least have an item that grants +2 enhancement bonus(+4 if you use the appropriate spell).

So base save dc should be 10+5(assume 20 in mental stat)+5(5th lv spell) = 20.
What other abilities you may have will further affect this.
Spell focus/greater spell focus gives a total of +2.
Tattoo focus gives +1 to your specialised school.
Shadow weave magic gives +1 dc to enchantment/illusion/necro spells.
Spell enhancer gives your next spell +1 dc.
A race with a starting bonus to your spellcasting stat will potentially give another +1.

It is not uncommon to achieve a save dc of 26 or 27 at lv10. Assuming you target their weak save, you should still have a fair chance of affecting them.:)
Lafing Cat
09-02-06, 01:29 AM Quick question to add to the discussion- what base save DCs (i.e. before adding spell level) are people used to as the standard in the campaigns they play in for a 10th level caster? 15th? 20th?

I personally find the "Gold standard" to be the following.

10th level: 16+spell level
15th level: 17+spell level
20th level: 21+spell level

raise these by 1 if your stat generation is particularly conducive to an 18.

(assumes starting casting stat of 16, all stat ups go to casting stat, a +4 enhancement bonus by 10, a +6 by 15, and a +5 inherent mod by level 20) It does *not* assume PaO shenannigens nor the use of templates or non-PHB races, which could vastly skew these results upwards.
smrtgmp
09-02-06, 02:34 AM I agree with those who reccomended tanking your enemy's saves.

Negative levels are awesome. Sword of deception is pretty sweet.
Fruscht
09-04-06, 08:22 AM One more idea: Arcane Consumption feat from PHB2 gives your spell a +4 bonus on save DC once per day. There is a price to pay, however: -4 penalty to Con for 12 hours and fatigue.
Xybot
09-04-06, 12:31 PM Also in PHB2 is the spell Mystic Surge (Level 4 Sor/Wiz) that takes a standard action to grant your next spell (within 1 round) +2 Save DC and +1 caster level. Thats better than Spell Enhancer from Spell Compendium if all you want is save DC's. But Spell Enhancer is Swift, which is much nicer for the same level of spell.
scout989
09-04-06, 01:32 PM One more idea: Arcane Consumption feat from PHB2 gives your spell a +4 bonus on save DC once per day. There is a price to pay, however: -4 penalty to Con for 12 hours and fatigue.
Yeah, I noticed that the other day. This one is just about tailor-made for any players who want to play a lich- the prereqs are actually pretty good for you then (if you sub Improved Toughness), and the downsides of the feat are completely negated.
savant_warlord13
09-04-06, 02:07 PM You can use optional material components found in one of the Eberron books
Fruscht
09-04-06, 04:26 PM Also in PHB2 is the spell Mystic Surge (Level 4 Sor/Wiz) that takes a standard action to grant your next spell (within 1 round) +2 Save DC and +1 caster level. Thats better than Spell Enhancer from Spell Compendium if all you want is save DC's. But Spell Enhancer is Swift, which is much nicer for the same level of spell.
Nice find, I'll have to remember this one.
If only Mystic Surge and Spell Enhancer could stack, eh? You'd get +3 Save DC (although at the cost of two 4th level spells).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Burdell 08-29-06, 02:36 PM	There seem to be spells to boost to hit, AC, saves, etc. on a temporary basis. Is there a good way (spells, feats) to increase a save DC for a particular spell when needed? I haven't seen much other than the Spell Focus type feats which let you boost one school's save DCs by +1. I'm particularly interested in this for an arcane caster.
tarkin 08-29-06, 02:54 PM	Besides the many feats (not just that one) and Prestige Classes that do that, usually you do it in reverse. I.E. Give the bad guy a penalty to his saves instead of a boost to yours.
Rerednaw 08-29-06, 02:58 PM	There seem to be spells to boost to hit, AC, saves, etc. on a temporary basis. Is there a good way (spells, feats) to increase a save DC for a particular spell when needed? I haven't seen much other than the Spell Focus type feats which let you boost one school's save DCs by +1. I'm particularly interested in this for an arcane caster. Raise (via spell or item) your intelligence. Even Fox's Cunning will give you an effective +2 to the DC. If you are a sorcerer and have the Heighten Spell feat you can do it on the fly. I think the Beguiler (PHB II) has some operative ability which requires the target to be flat-footed. That's all I can think of as far as low-level/low cost.
Witch 08-29-06, 05:08 PM	The Fatespinner Pr. C. is good at this.
Dheran 09-01-06, 04:41 AM	If you're a multiclass cleric/arcane caster you can take advantage of the granted powers of your two clerical domains. For example: Domination: You gain Spell Focus (enchantment) as a bonus feat. Illusion: You cast all illusion spells at +1 caster level. Oracle: You cast divination spells at +2 caster levels. Purification: You cast abjuration spells at +1 caster level. Summoner: You cast all conjuration (summoning) and conjuration (calling) spells at +2 caster levels. Tyranny: Add +1 to the save DC of any enchantment (compulsion) spell you cast. The cost is one level in your arcane class, but the benefits include +2 to your Fortitude and Will saves plus some useful clerical spells. Also three levels of cleric will set you up for Mystic Theurge, which is a good recipe for becoming a very strong caster (both arcane and divine).
SamiPeikko 09-01-06, 05:12 AM	Most effects that boost Save DC:s were either removed in conversion from 3.0 to 3.5ed, (like PrC abilities, that now give caster level bonus instead), or decreased (like Spell Focus feats). This was done for a good reason. Best way to increase your save DC:s after the stat boost item and Spell Focus feats still staying with strict 3.5 is to buy a Tome +4-5 for the right atribute. It is a bit pricey, but trust me it is worth it.
Fruscht 09-01-06, 05:15 AM	Check out the Spell Enhancer spell from the Spell Compendium. Casting it is a swift action, and it increases the Save DC for the next spell you cast by 1.
Burdell 09-01-06, 11:35 AM	Hmm, ok, thanks for the suggestions folks. I realize that boosting my caster stat is the obvious way. Last campaign I was in that got to high levels we were fighting things above our nominal CR most of the time (we were fairly powerful due to some house rules, etc., but hadn't gotten the opportunity to increase casting stats tremendously), so any spells that allowed saves got fairly pointless. And bumping save DCs by 1-2 wasn't going to fix that, I was wondering about something in the 5-10 range. I haven't seen a lot of spells that would pay off to use the Heighten feat with; if there is a 3rd level spell that does something nasty and I'm willing to Heighten it to 7th level, there is probably a spell at 7th that does something even nastier and already has the higher save DC. No Prestige classes this time around, so that limits the options to spells, feats or items. And I can't see using Spell Focus feats on all the different schools I expect to be casting from. . .
Furion Thamior 09-01-06, 12:16 PM	A little bit of finesse and strategy can go a long way in helping your spells get through, even without spell save DC increasing abilities. Picking spells that simply allow no save is a good start, however in general these spells will only affect a single target and probably require a touch attack of some sort. A few examples include the Orb spells (spell compendium, also ignore SR), Scorching Ray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Polar Ray, the Power Words (note the hit point limits on these, however), and Enervation. A great deal of mass-effect spells, however do allow saves, the trick is to choose the right spell for the right target. Common sense, a good memory, and taking some Knowledge skills are going to give you the tools to identify which groups are targets are going to be most vulnerable to your attacks. If you have problems, start smacking things with a metamagic'ed up Enervation (coupled with a quickened True Strike, if needed) and other curses to knock down the saves by a few points.
wookibus 09-01-06, 12:21 PM	In the book of Eldritch Magic there are feats (lace spell good/evil/law/chaos) which grants +2 DC's against the oppossing alignment (i.e. if you choose good, then all DC's go up against evil creatures). This works well if you are constantly going against foes with a particular alignment. It is tougher to raise your DC's, rather than debuffing the enemy's saving throws as mentioned earlier.
runestar 09-01-06, 10:46 PM	Aye, you might want to consider spending a round or 2 lowering an enemy's save via spells such as limited wish/enervation first.:) If you are still not confident of your save dcs...
Mandarbgrim 09-01-06, 10:53 PM	hmmmm..Get a Hexblade Cohort using the Hexblade specific feats from dragon magazine #??? & the Darkcompanion alternate class ability from the PHB2. If you combine that with Quickened low level debuffs that don't allow saves <Ray of Clumsiness comes to mind.> then their saves could drop close to zero. Or if the DM will go for adding a spell to the Hexblade spell list, the Hexblade can use the Ray of Clumsiness. Another thought is poisoned weapons if you haven't thought of that. Eh...seems to be getting into an alignment sketchy issue for some, though.
SageBahamut 09-01-06, 11:39 PM	I've had this problem myself. All the bad guys' saves go up with HD (10+1/2HD+whatever), but yours are stuck forever at 10+minimum HD+whatever. I've never found an efficient way to compensate for this within the rules, sad to say. They all involve wasting precious feats and spells-per-day to effect a boost of maybe 1 or 2, hardly earth-shattering, especially at higher levels. (i.e., all the methods listed thus far) My proposed solution - which received only brief and unhelpful attention here but has served me well in the past - was an item called a Ring of Spell Power. Pricing it as a weapon bonus (X^2*2000gp) worked well for me - I spent however much I could afford and got enough of a boost to stay competitive without being hopelessly outclassed or horrendously powerful. I wouldn't necessarily allow them as starting equipment, due simply to the odd side-effects of someone blowing half their starting gold on a ring +lots. :) Otherwise it's the best solution I've managed to houserule thus far. Perhaps the more obvious thing is to say that spell-level has no effect on saves, and make the DCs for all of the player's powers 10+1/2HD+mods too. I haven't playtested this approach yet, but it seems valid considering it's how monster powers - even those that are spell-like - work.
scout989 09-01-06, 11:49 PM	Quick question to add to the discussion- what base save DCs (i.e. before adding spell level) are people used to as the standard in the campaigns they play in for a 10th level caster? 15th? 20th?
runestar 09-02-06, 01:26 AM	Oh, and just to point out: try to target their weak save if possible.;) Quick question to add to the discussion- what base save DCs (i.e. before adding spell level) are people used to as the standard in the campaigns they play in for a 10th level caster? 15th? 20th? You have 5th lv spells. Key spellcasting score should be around 18(base16 +2 points from lving up), you should at least have an item that grants +2 enhancement bonus(+4 if you use the appropriate spell). So base save dc should be 10+5(assume 20 in mental stat)+5(5th lv spell) = 20. What other abilities you may have will further affect this. Spell focus/greater spell focus gives a total of +2. Tattoo focus gives +1 to your specialised school. Shadow weave magic gives +1 dc to enchantment/illusion/necro spells. Spell enhancer gives your next spell +1 dc. A race with a starting bonus to your spellcasting stat will potentially give another +1. It is not uncommon to achieve a save dc of 26 or 27 at lv10. Assuming you target their weak save, you should still have a fair chance of affecting them.:)
Lafing Cat 09-02-06, 01:29 AM	Quick question to add to the discussion- what base save DCs (i.e. before adding spell level) are people used to as the standard in the campaigns they play in for a 10th level caster? 15th? 20th? I personally find the "Gold standard" to be the following. 10th level: 16+spell level 15th level: 17+spell level 20th level: 21+spell level raise these by 1 if your stat generation is particularly conducive to an 18. (assumes starting casting stat of 16, all stat ups go to casting stat, a +4 enhancement bonus by 10, a +6 by 15, and a +5 inherent mod by level 20) It does not assume PaO shenannigens nor the use of templates or non-PHB races, which could vastly skew these results upwards.
smrtgmp 09-02-06, 02:34 AM	I agree with those who reccomended tanking your enemy's saves. Negative levels are awesome. Sword of deception is pretty sweet.
Fruscht 09-04-06, 08:22 AM	One more idea: Arcane Consumption feat from PHB2 gives your spell a +4 bonus on save DC once per day. There is a price to pay, however: -4 penalty to Con for 12 hours and fatigue.
Xybot 09-04-06, 12:31 PM	Also in PHB2 is the spell Mystic Surge (Level 4 Sor/Wiz) that takes a standard action to grant your next spell (within 1 round) +2 Save DC and +1 caster level. Thats better than Spell Enhancer from Spell Compendium if all you want is save DC's. But Spell Enhancer is Swift, which is much nicer for the same level of spell.
scout989 09-04-06, 01:32 PM	One more idea: Arcane Consumption feat from PHB2 gives your spell a +4 bonus on save DC once per day. There is a price to pay, however: -4 penalty to Con for 12 hours and fatigue. Yeah, I noticed that the other day. This one is just about tailor-made for any players who want to play a lich- the prereqs are actually pretty good for you then (if you sub Improved Toughness), and the downsides of the feat are completely negated.
savant_warlord13 09-04-06, 02:07 PM	You can use optional material components found in one of the Eberron books
Fruscht 09-04-06, 04:26 PM	Also in PHB2 is the spell Mystic Surge (Level 4 Sor/Wiz) that takes a standard action to grant your next spell (within 1 round) +2 Save DC and +1 caster level. Thats better than Spell Enhancer from Spell Compendium if all you want is save DC's. But Spell Enhancer is Swift, which is much nicer for the same level of spell. Nice find, I'll have to remember this one. If only Mystic Surge and Spell Enhancer could stack, eh? You'd get +3 Save DC (although at the cost of two 4th level spells).