Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 08-19-05, 02:27 PM	What is up with the 3.5 Boots of S&S? Did somebody go nuts up there? Back in 3.0, the Boots were definitely overpowered -- it was like +30 speed and +10 jump checks, or some bizarrely large amount like that, for a bit over 3000 gp. Now they cost twice as much, and give a third of the effect?! +10 speed and +5 jump isn't worth over 5000 gp. I mean, I guess OVERALL, it's a total of a +9 or +11 to jump (since you get a +4 for being faster than 30 feet, or if your speed is slower than 30, you're getting rid of that -6), but that isn't really relevant. It's a 1st level spell -- the boots should be like 2500 gp, right? Does it have something to do with a Ranger's caster level being 2 when he gains the ability to cast the spell at 4th level? A cleric of Travel can still use it at 1st level. Anyway, that would make it, what... 4500 total? Still a thousand cheaper, and still overpriced for the effect, which is that of a 1st level all-day-long spell! I would think that the original cost of 3500 gp would be appropriate, now that the boots are toned-down in their effect. Who's with me?!
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-19-05, 03:15 PM	I am under the belief that the new pricing formula for skills was created under the influence of a truly heroic amount of alcohol.
Salla 08-19-05, 03:20 PM	As near as I can tell, it was determined that skill bonus items were considered underpriced in 3.0, particularly given the fact that I've seen more than one party that was bedecked in the Elven Spy Fall Wardrobe Assortment (Cloak/Boots of elvenkind). The party rogue didn't have any ranks in Hide and Move Silently because the Cloak and Boots were so effective. Doubling speed is fine when you're a 20' moving Fighter/Paladin, but now let's imagine the silliness of a 40' speed Barbarian ... or worse, a 70' monk, then give such a character Spring Attack, where he can move more than a double-move away from his target! They were definitely underpriced in 3.0 ... they may be a touch overpriced now, but better to err on the side of caution, I think.
DarknessEternal 08-19-05, 03:46 PM	5500 gold is a drop in the bucket for an item from which almost every adventurer would gain huge benefits.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-19-05, 03:51 PM	5500 gold is a drop in the bucket for an item from which almost every adventurer would gain huge benefits. Its certainly not a huge benifit. +10 speed is pathetic considering a barbarian gets that for free. And this isn't the side of caution, this is the side of lunacy. bonus^2x50 is fine and scales fine.
Keenath 08-19-05, 04:01 PM	Well, I think I worked out how they came up with this cost.... If you go by the charts: A first-level spell cast at first level, always on, costs 2000 gp. Some spells SHOULD be more expensive, but usually that's spells with a duration in rounds or minutes. Longstrider is 1 hour/level, which ends up being basically an all-day spell anyway, so it shouldn't be more expensive than the base to convert it to an item. The skill bonus at +5 would cost 2500 by the new (possibly insane) skill costs, but it's a related ability to the speed, on the theme of movement, so the lowest priced ability (the striding) costs 150% of normal. So: 2500 + 3000 = 5500 gp I guess skills really are overpriced at x100; I didn't think so before, but now I'm starting to think maybe they are, particularly in combination with other powers. +5 to a skill really is a huge amount, but... how often does +5 to jump make a huge difference? I suspect this is a case where some skills are more beneficial than others. Heck, do you really think an eyeglass that gives +5 to Appraise would be worth 2500 gp? If the skills were bonus-squared x 50, that would make the skill bonus cost 1250. Now it's the least expensive, and takes the 50% increase. That'd put it at 3875 gp, and speed is valuable so we could round up to an even 4000 gp. I still think that's high, but I consider the speed and jump bonuses to be "related", so they shouldn't have a cost increase. My prefence would be a cost of around 3500 gp, like the old version of the Boots of S&S. DarknessEternal: Remember, the OLD boots of S&S simple doubled your speed, and they WERE underpriced. But the new boots just give +10, flat. A monk get the same benefit a heavily armored gnome does. I don't think +10 is "pathetic"; it's useful. But it's not much more than 2000 gp worth of useful! Seriously, it's only two squares.
DarknessEternal 08-19-05, 04:03 PM	10 speed is pathetic considering a barbarian gets that for free. If you think that because an ability is gained at level 1 by a class that it's pathetic on a magic item, you are mistaken. Monk's Belt and Raging weapons cost substantially more than those boots. Both are level 1 class features (although Raging weapons only have half the bonuses of Barbarian's rage). Moving faster is useful. The most obvious example is +10' of speed making guy in plate as fast as a naked guy, thus negating the largest penalty of wearing heavy armor. I'm surprised these boots aren't more expensive.
Zym 08-19-05, 04:23 PM	If you think that because an ability is gained at level 1 by a class that it's pathetic on a magic item, you are mistaken. I strongly agree. There was a query on Centaurs and Horseshoes of Speed floating around, and most seemed to feel that Boots of Striding and Springing were overpriced and that +30 move for 3-4k was quite fair (basing it on a continuous Expeditious Retreat). This partially based on a ruling in Races of Faerun which states Centaurs can use all equipment designed for Horses, even magic? I still don't agree with that for balance reasons (based on existing items and item creation guidelines), and from my experience any bonus to movement makes a significant difference. :behold:
Keenath 08-19-05, 04:28 PM	Monk's Belt and Raging weapons cost substantially more than those boots. Both are level 1 class features (although Raging weapons only have half the bonuses of Barbarian's rage).The Rage weapons imitate a spell, not a class ability. Regardless, all first-level abilities are not equal. A monk's wisdom bonus and unarmed strike are very good powers integral to the class, as is rage (thus the less-powerful version), while increased speed isn't unique to Barbarians -- it's not even that hard to GET a speed boost with first level spells. There's at least two of them, possibly three. First level spell, first level power -- that's appropriate for a relatively cheap item.
Keenath 08-19-05, 04:34 PM	There was a query on Centaurs and Horseshoes of Speed floating around, and most seemed to feel that Boots of Striding and Springing were overpriced and that +30 move for 3-4k was quite fair (basing it on a continuous Expeditious Retreat). I still don't agree with that for balance reasons (based on existing items and item creation guidelines), and from my experience any bonus to movement makes a significant difference.Speed has a diminishing return. Most battles happen in relatively small areas; there's only so much distance between enemies. The difference between 20 and 30 or 30 and 40 is pretty big, while the difference between 50 and 60 really isn't that big a deal. By the same token, a centaur increasing from 50 to 80 isn't anything like the difference between a gnome going from 20 to 50. Sorry for the multipost; I get annoyed when people say that every speed increase is equal. Very fast creatures don't care much about increasing their overwhelming speed, while very slow creatures can think of nothing more valuable.
Zym 08-19-05, 04:59 PM	I don't disagree that speed has diminishing returns and select application in combat. However, I still feel that speed is underrated. It can really be the one thing that saves yer butt or helps you control the battlefield. It decreases average travel time for parties and makes scouting very interesting. I also don't completely agree with fast critters caring less about speed. Perhaps this is more dependant on the build or critter (most things are) but tactically its very advantageous to be wherever you want. Of my last 2 characters, one had a land speed of 80 and was always looking for more bumps, the other is a flyer at 80 and also looking to bump that over 100. Most members of our parties without a doubt go for early, easy speed boosts (BoS&S), and frequently desire even greater speeds (of note is that we only use WotC crafted items and the only customization we have is fusing preexisting items). Perhaps that skews my view of the overall topic... Anyhow good stuff! :behold:
mvincent 08-19-05, 05:19 PM	For most characters these boots will be of no use. For a few (monks & barbarians) it can cause their jump skill and movement to literally go through the roof, allowing them to jump over enemies and essentially land anywhere on the battlefield. I'm a stingy optimizer, but several characters I've made for people have used these boots. Used right, they can be pretty powerful. Wire-fu cannot be overpriced.
Salla 08-19-05, 05:26 PM	[QUOTE=Vaalingrade Ashland]Its certainly not a huge benifit. +10 speed is pathetic considering a barbarian gets that for free. [QUOTE] And if the boots didn't stack with that, I might agree. (The Catfolk Barbarian with the Quick trait in my game is already eyeing a pair of those suckers ... 70' move. So much for archery and artillery spells ...)
shultz 08-19-05, 05:30 PM	For most characters these boots will be of no use. For a few (monks & barbarians) it can cause their jump skill and movement to literally go through the roof, allowing them to jump over enemies and essentially land anywhere on the battlefield. I'm a stingy optimizer, but several characters I've made for people have used these boots. Used right, they can be pretty powerful. Wire-fu cannot be overpriced. The boots provide an enhancement bonus to a figures speed. The monk's fast movement ability also provides an enhancement bonus (specifically to the monk's speed). They will not stack. It will stack with the barbarian's fast movement ability since his bonus is unnamed.
Iver Gearsham 08-27-05, 03:41 AM	I love the boots, speed is life in all out combate. As a Crafter Mage I max out the movement to 30 ft. if the DM oks it as soon as possable. Then add in Spider Climb and a Ring of Jump WireFu action is there for nearly anyone. Jumping 20 ft. in the air and sticking to the roof is increadable fun!
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-27-05, 03:45 AM	Here's a fun question: Why in the creation of the item, did the crafter purposefully gimp themselves by using the first level spell longstrider instead of the first level spell expedicious retreat?
Iver Gearsham 08-27-05, 03:53 AM	Here's a fun question: Why in the creation of the item, did the crafter purposefully gimp themselves by using the first level spell longstrider instead of the first level spell expedicious retreat? They didn't it uses EXp Retreat and always has.
smrtgmp 08-27-05, 03:58 AM	Here's a fun question: Why in the creation of the item, did the crafter purposefully gimp themselves by using the first level spell longstrider instead of the first level spell expedicious retreat?Because a spell with a longer duration will yield a cheaper item? I always thought the boots were a pretty good deal. I'll spend 5k for an extra 10ft of movement.
Zym 08-27-05, 04:06 AM	In 3.0 it may have, I don't recall atm and no longer have the 3.0 SRD stored. From the 3.5 SRD: Boots of Striding and Springing: These boots increase the wearer’s base land speed by 10 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +5 competence bonus on Jump checks. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, longstrider, creator must have 5 ranks in the Jump skill; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb. IMO Note: Basing it on Ex. Retreat would likely result in a uses per day item or a number of max rounds as Boots of Speed are. It's cost would be a fair shake higher by most designs (those with an eye for balance and RAW/RAI) I've seen on these boards if continuous. The guidelines in the DMG are just that and have to be compared to existing items when determing cost and balance. Again, the above is an IMO note, as always whatever works in your own game is just as good if the group is happy with it. :behold:
Raven Dark 08-27-05, 10:32 AM	Maybe this will be more to your taste? Boots of Striding: These soft leather boots vastly increase the wearer’s base land speed. The speed increase is considered an enhancement bonus. ___Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, expeditious retreat or longstrider; Price 3,000 gp (+10 ft.), 6,000 gp (+20 ft.), 12,000 gp (+30 ft.), 24,000 gp (+40 ft.), 48,000 (+50 ft.), 96,000 gp (+60 ft.), 192,000 gp (+70 ft.); Weight: 1 lb. It is v3.5 compatible and has been playtested for balance for hundreds of hours.
Roxlimn 08-27-05, 10:45 AM	Not all first level all day long spells are created equal. An all-day long Mount is dirt cheap. I think an actual saddled Heavy Warhorse doesn't even break 1000 gp. However, an all day long True Strike would be nothing short of Epic. For most characters, the Boots grant a +10 increase in speed and +9 to Jump. Those are powerful adjusters. Even given a modestly optimized Barbarian with high ranks in Jump, I'd say that'd result in some pretty amazing movement powers. Very wire-fu. For practice, how much would the item cost if it granted a +10 increase in speed but specifically excluded Jump modifiers from this, but instead added +10 to Spot or Hide? The skill mods alone would make it cost significantly. Given that Jump isn't a particularly strong skill, I think it's fair to price it at 5500. I think that the prices of almost all skill powers are more respectful to skill based classes as well. No more Mages masquerading as Rogues. I believe that a fair amount of the price comes from the skill mod in addition to the movement mod. Pricing magic items based on spells is one of the worst mistakes anyone can make. By that token, True Strike and Cure Light Wound items should be downright cheap! Spells have a lot of inherent limitations built into them that are not in effect for wondrous items, and especially for continuous effect wondrous items. Arguing to make the Boots cheaper from the basis of spell effect is a bad argument.
Someone 08-27-05, 12:28 PM	Just wanted to point out that longstrider is a divine spell (druid/ ranger more specificly), and most of the items are assumed to be made by arcane casters (wizards specificly). As for pricing, I think it would be easier to think in terms of extra squares of move, and then use the typical: bonus^2 x value function to determine cost.
curan69 08-27-05, 01:45 PM	Yeah it seems by the formula that all skills are created equal. I'm having a pair of boots made that are boots of striding and TUMBLING. A little more useful to get +5 to tumbling. Besides you still get +4 to jump anyway for the extra 10 ft of speed. Of course you have to have at least one rank in a trained skill to use it. these boots are for my Elven Cleric who has one( cross classed cost me 2) rank in tumbling and a +3 dex, so overall still only +9 to tumble. We did bump the price up to 6000gp even though all skills should cost the same. I Cant argue that tumbling is more useful than jumping. We figure the extra 500 is for having the boots made because they are not a stock item....lol
FriendoftheDork 08-27-05, 04:21 PM	Maybe this will be more to your taste? Boots of Striding: These soft leather boots vastly increase the wearer’s base land speed. The speed increase is considered an enhancement bonus. ___Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, expeditious retreat or longstrider; Price 3,000 gp (+10 ft.), 6,000 gp (+20 ft.), 12,000 gp (+30 ft.), 24,000 gp (+40 ft.), 48,000 (+50 ft.), 96,000 gp (+60 ft.), 192,000 gp (+70 ft.); Weight: 1 lb. It is v3.5 compatible and has been playtested for balance for hundreds of hours. These bots are alo better than the standard 3.5 boots of striding. 3000 for +10' speed is very good price, that you can enhcant it further for more speed is just better. Face it, noone buys boots of striding and springing to get that +5 to jump anyway, and +5 to jump isn't worth 2500 hp (5500-3000)! So compared to existing item this one is unbalanced.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-27-05, 04:27 PM	So compared to existing item this one is unbalanced. Assuming the overpriced ones are balanced.
Arindor 08-29-05, 10:21 AM	FYI In 3.0 errata the boots were repriced to 5500 I believe.
FriendoftheDork 08-29-05, 11:50 AM	Assuming the overpriced ones are balanced. Of course... you think they are not? Items that are unbalanced are usually those that are so good that others are unecessary. Can't say that about boots of striding now, can you?
Ipsissimus 08-29-05, 01:15 PM	I didn't think a pair of boots would cause such an uproar...I thought I was walking through a shoe sale in NYC for a second. ;) This is the 2nd pair I acquired in FR campaign, and I'm really enjoying wearing fullplate and these boots. I don't really use them to jump much at all but keeping up with the rest especially for overland movement is really a boon. The price of the boots would drop considerably if you took the +5 to jump checks off. Basically since it's a double enchanted items that formula gets that heft multiplier...but as is, imo it's fine. ...I'm just glad I don't have to click my heels to get the speed boost everytime.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-30-05, 03:10 AM	Of course... you think they are not? Items that are unbalanced are usually those that are so good that others are unecessary. Can't say that about boots of striding now, can you? Unblanced cuts the other way too, when the expense does not justify the benefit. The only way I'd pay gold for those boots is if I'm crafting them myself and only have to pay half. See also 52kgp Wings of Flying.
FriendoftheDork 08-30-05, 04:20 AM	52k gp wings of flying is another matter... If Boots of Striding is overpriced, then no one would but them. Yet people do, as Ipsissimus just said. +10' speed is always a boon, especially to those with only 20 to begin with, such as halflings, dwarves and stupid full-plate fighters. 10' speed can mean the difference of life and death. A measly 5500 is nothing compared to that. Now if you're talking overpriced take a look on a few other items, such as Rod of Lordly might.... I've never heard of anyone actually buying such an item. Oh, it's useful, but for the price you can get so much more useful items. No other (core) item can grant you +10 speed though, and the +5 to jump is just a boon. Though I admit my first 5500gp seldom goes to these boots (rather to stat-boost and AC boosts), when I get those 4k or less items I want, this one is what I go for.
Polaris 08-30-05, 05:52 AM	Put me in the camp that thinks that the 3.5 boots of striding and springing are overpriced. Yes +10 speed is nice, but: 1. It is an enhancement bonus which means it won't stack with most speed increases (Barbarian being the notable exception). 2. It applies to LAND-speed only. The point is that I have never seen anyone spend the 5500 on these boots in 3.5 which is a sure sign they are overpriced. They hold out for boots of speed or other footwear instead. -Polaris
hobbitboy 09-01-05, 04:21 AM	Lol - my small-sized character just bought a pair two days ago! Obviously I'm too much of a pessimist because I always assumed that if someone wearing Boots of Striding and Springing was moderately or heavily encumbered that you added the +10 (for the boots) to their land speed BEFORE adjusting for encumberance. Can anyone explain why, according to the rules of the game, I am wrong. I.E. what rule, principle, example, or whatever demonstrates that the +10 is applied AFTER the reducing effect from being encumbered has been applied? Note: I'm not disagreeing but I'll need to justify this change to my DM. Thanks, - John
smrtgmp 09-01-05, 04:43 AM	The point is that I have never seen anyone spend the 5500 on these boots in 3.5 which is a sure sign they are overpriced. They hold out for boots of speed or other footwear instead. -PolarisReally? They are a popular choice amongst the people I play with. I prefer boots of levitation, but thats because I favor casters and I like to keep myself above melee range whenever possible.
Polaris 09-01-05, 04:53 AM	Really? They are a popular choice amongst the people I play with. I prefer boots of levitation, but thats because I favor casters and I like to keep myself above melee range whenever possible. No accounting for taste, but I think your group is missing something. 1. Boots of speed give move extra moves and all the ancillary benefits of haste and they don't cost that much more. Just for movement, you get three times the movement increase for less than half the price (and it's a free action to activate boots of speed). 2. Longstrider is already a first level spell for druids, rangers, and travel clerics. Those that need the speed boost can get it much cheaper from these spellcasters or even from wands. A wand of longstrider only costs 750 gold and it gives the same basic result. In short, I can't imagine why anyone would buy these boots at the price they are at. -Polaris
smrtgmp 09-01-05, 05:00 AM	You seem to be missing something as well. 1) Boots of speed only work for 10 rounds per day. As such, they dont do much for someone looking for a constant speed boost. And since they cost more than twice as much, I'm not sure "they don't cost that much more" is an accurate statement. The difference between 5500 and 12000 is pretty signifigant, especially at mid levels, where these items are likely to be used. 2) Longstrider is a personal spell, meaning those who cant cast it have no way of benefiting from an ally knowing the spell. Longstrider Transmutation Level: Drd 1, Rgr 1, Travel 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 hour/level (D)Furthermore, a wand of longstrider will in no way duplicate the boots, for two reasons. First, only those with it on their spell list (or sufficient ranks in UMD) can use it. Second, a 750gp wand of longstrider has a CL of 1, meaning each charge will only last an hour. You'll go through the wands pretty quickly at that rate, which means they arent exactly a sound investment. Finally, I fail to see how +10 to speed and +9 (when factoring in the +4 from the increase in speed) to jump checks is overpriced at 5500, especially when you concider that an item that gives you +10 to a single skill costs 10k (or 8100 for +9).
FriendoftheDork 09-01-05, 05:15 AM	I've noticed that some groups I have played with NEVER get these boots. Those same people tended to ALWAYS buy the boots in 3.0. Then they check out 3.5 and goes "damn that's expensive". Basically they're spoiled. So no wonder they go for boots of speed instead, since those boots were probably not that underpriced in 3.0
Merestil Haye 09-01-05, 05:45 AM	This seems to be a common misconception. The price of boots of Springing and Striding was reduced in 3.5.p. 211, The price for boots of striding and springing is given as 2,500 gp. CHANGE “2,500” to: 6,000.As for the land speed increase, firstly you do realise that the Boots increase is an enhancement bonus, the same type as the Monk speed increase? So they don't stack? (Of course the boots work all the time, while the Monk speed boost turns off if you are overloaded.) You apply the changes to speed to your base land speed, so that means you apply speed penalties for load or armour after adjusting the base speed, not before.
Polaris 09-01-05, 07:51 AM	You seem to be missing something as well. 1) Boots of speed only work for 10 rounds per day. As such, they dont do much for someone looking for a constant speed boost. And since they cost more than twice as much, I'm not sure "they don't cost that much more" is an accurate statement. The difference between 5500 and 12000 is pretty signifigant, especially at mid levels, where these items are likely to be used. So what? How many rounds per day do you really NEED that increased speed? When you factor in haste (which increases the speed of the entire party), fly (which allows most people to move faster than their land speed), certain feats (like Speed of Thought which any character can get now), not to mention class abilities like the Monk or Barbarian abilities (or their PrC equivalents), +10 landspeed is really pretty lame (especially since it won't stack anymore with most of these). To make matters worse, you add the speed AFTER encumbrance is factored in which really, *really* hoses small characters. As for the difference between 5500 and 12,000 that's a level difference, perhaps two...and the boots of speed are so much better that it's painful. 2) Longstrider is a personal spell, meaning those who cant cast it have no way of benefiting from an ally knowing the spell. Furthermore, a wand of longstrider will in no way duplicate the boots, for two reasons. First, only those with it on their spell list (or sufficient ranks in UMD) can use it. Second, a 750gp wand of longstrider has a CL of 1, meaning each charge will only last an hour. You'll go through the wands pretty quickly at that rate, which means they arent exactly a sound investment. I stand corrected about Longstrider. However, clerics (if travel...a very common domain) can use this spell, druids can, rangers can....and with UMD Warlocks can (as can Bards and Rogues). Fighters can since two feats (and they get copious feats) into an ability that adds +10 to ALL speed and not just landspeed and Barbarians get the same for free (as do monks eventually). The point is that +10 speed is L-A-M-E (at least at 5500 gold). Finally, I fail to see how +10 to speed and +9 (when factoring in the +4 from the increase in speed) to jump checks is overpriced at 5500, especially when you concider that an item that gives you +10 to a single skill costs 10k (or 8100 for +9). Becuase +5 Jump checks aren't WORTH 3500 gold. That's what makes the current boots overpriced. 2000 gold for +10 landspeed is actually pretty reasonable. 5500 is not (and no one really cares about +5 Jump). Now...if the boots were +10 land-speed and +5 tumble, everyone would consider that a very good deal. Moral: Not all skill bonuses are created equal (nor should they cost the same). FriendoftheDork, I object to your characterization. It's not that a lot of groups were spoiled (and it has already noted that the price of boots went DOWN....just not by enough is all). It's that the boots went from overpowered to L-A-M-E because the +5 Jump for most characters is pointless....you buy the boots for the movement not the Jump skill bonus but it's the jump skill bonus that jacks up the cost to unreasonable levels. -Polaris
FriendoftheDork 09-01-05, 09:41 AM	FriendoftheDork, I object to your characterization. It's not that a lot of groups were spoiled (and it has already noted that the price of boots went DOWN....just not by enough is all). It's that the boots went from overpowered to L-A-M-E because the +5 Jump for most characters is pointless....you buy the boots for the movement not the Jump skill bonus but it's the jump skill bonus that jacks up the cost to unreasonable levels. -Polaris Strange, I never saw that errata. I'm sure I'm not the only one as well. Still, in our games these boots went from everyone getting a pair, to no one bothering. Although it's true most people don't care about +5 jump, extra 10' speed all the time is pretty awesome, at least for us that can't afford boots of speed.
Raven Dark 09-01-05, 12:19 PM	Becuase +5 Jump checks aren't WORTH 3500 gold. That's what makes the current boots overpriced. 2000 gold for +10 landspeed is actually pretty reasonable. 5500 is not (and no one really cares about +5 Jump). Where are you getting 3,500gp from? +5 to a skill is only worth 2,500gp. That is why my Boots of Striding (+10 ft.) cost 3,000gp, because it is 5,000 - 2,500 = 3,000gp, a reasonable final cost. It was simple mathematical deduction to find the worth of +10-foot speed. A lot of people tell me that I need to account for "multiple differenent abilities" in this deduction (which would multiply the lower item cost by 1.5), but I have spoken with the game designers on the matter and they have all stated that they didn't use the multipliers for this particular item (indeed, they didn't use the multipliers for many items since they are guidelines, not hard rules). Thus, I ended up with my conclusion: +10-feet is worth a base price of 3,000gp. I went from there trying to come up with an equation and I determined that doubling the price for each increment of 10 was appropriate. At higher speeds the boots would be prohibitively expensive and would only be bought by those who are truly desirous of them anyway (such as a min/maxer trying to get speed). At the lower speeds, I find that most people want them for their cost.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-01-05, 01:24 PM	This seems to be a common misconception. The price of boots of Springing and Striding was reduced in 3.5. Those boots, however granted a +30 to speed and +10 to jump, so 6k was actually reasonable. As for the '+9 jump' thing, the fact is that all skills are not created equal. While the skill bonus formula for 3e was perfect for boosting common skills like move silent, hide, spot and listen, and too high for boosting ancillary skills like profession and craft, the higher end skills like spellcraft, umd and pick pockets could make you a golden god in short order. The new formula works only for the 'golden god' skills and are wholly inappropriate for things like jump. Jump is not worth skill bonus^2x100. Not at all. Jump is one of those skills that's below spot in usefullness, but above profession: farming because of its potential cool factor.
Merestil Haye 09-01-05, 02:49 PM	That is why my Boots of Striding (+10 ft.) cost 3,000gp, because it is 5,000 - 2,500 = 3,000gp, a reasonable final cost. It was simple mathematical deduction to find the worth of +10-foot speed.Well well. Cost of +5 bonus to Jump skill : bonus^2 * 100 = 2,500 Cost of continuous Longstrider = spell level 1 * caster level 1 * 2,000 = 2,000. 50% surcharge for combining two powers in a single item, assuming the lower-cost power is secondary = 2,000 * ½ = 1,000 2,500 + 2,000 + 1,000 = 5,500. Which is coincidentally the price of the Boots? The designers are claiming to have pulled a cost out of thin air which just so happens to equal the cost of the item using their guidelines? Cost of Longstrider continuously implanted in boots should be 2,000gp. Yes, the boots did more in 3.0. And I'm perfectly willing to concede that the increased powers of the 3.0 boots are worth more than a 500gp price hike. I was just correcting the erroneous statement that the price has gone up. By all means beef - just beef about the right things please.
Polaris 09-01-05, 02:57 PM	Raven, You forget the 1000 gold surcharge for putting the +5 Jump on an already magical item. The point is that 2000 gold for +10 Move is FAIR in 3.5. It's the +5 Jump cost that breaks the bank. -Polaris
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-01-05, 03:26 PM	Yes, the boots did more in 3.0. And I'm perfectly willing to concede that the increased powers of the 3.0 boots are worth more than a 500gp price hike. I was just correcting the erroneous statement that the price has gone up. By all means beef - just beef about the right things please. That's not what a meant. 6k for what the other boots did was reasonable. The strangled version 3.5 put out was far too gimped from the 3e version to just take 500gp off the price.
Raven Dark 09-01-05, 03:45 PM	2,500 + 2,000 + 1,000 = 5,500. Which is coincidentally the price of the Boots? The designers are claiming to have pulled a cost out of thin air which just so happens to equal the cost of the item using their guidelines? Yes, that is exactly right. I found it quite funny too. :)
smrtgmp 09-01-05, 07:40 PM	So what? How many rounds per day do you really NEED that increased speed?More than 10, thats for sure. When you factor in haste (which increases the speed of the entire party), fly (which allows most people to move faster than their land speed), certain feats (like Speed of Thought which any character can get now), not to mention class abilities like the Monk or Barbarian abilities (or their PrC equivalents), +10 landspeed is really pretty lame (especially since it won't stack anymore with most of these). Haste and fly, with their short durations, are combat buffs. They dont do a thing for someone looking for an all day boost. Speed of thought is great, but its an insight bonus, meaning it will stack with the boots. However, if you dont have access to psionic feats for whatever reason, thats not an option. It also costs a feat, which not everyone can spare. Furthermore, it doesnt work if you're in heavy armor, which means it wont benefit a lot of builds. Same goes for the barbarians speed boost (which, again, stacks with the boots). But what if you dont have space to take level dips to increase your speed? What if barbarian has nothing to do with your character concept and you find the notion of taking a dip in something for nothing more than power gaming reasons to be abhorant? To make matters worse, you add the speed AFTER encumbrance is factored in which really, *really* hoses small characters.Do the math, thats a good thing. If someone with a base speed of 20, it is reduced to 15 when encumbered. Add a +10 to that and you get 25. If you added it prior to tabulating encumbrance, then their speed would be 30, at which point it would go down to 20 whith a medium load. Last I checked, 25>20. Besides, a vast majority of small characters that I have seen do their best to remain at a light load or less, so its probably a moot point. As for the difference between 5500 and 12,000 that's a level difference, perhaps two...and the boots of speed are so much better that it's painful.At, low-mid levels, 6500gp is a lot. That could be a +1 weapon, +1 armor and shield, and ~1500gp of miscelaneous equipment. Besides, boots of speed fulfil an entirely different purpose. They are for combat, while the boots of S&S are for increasing your daily movement rate and helping you get around minor obsticles without having to use up expendable resourses (such as a fly spell) in addition to the increase in combat maneuverability. Besides, you mentioned haste above. If the party mage is hasting people at the beginning of combat, then why did you buy boots of speed? Fighters can since two feats (and they get copious feats) into an ability that adds +10 to ALL speed and not just landspeed So now your argument is that two feats are cheaper than 5500gp? That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on these boards, and thats saying a lot. and Barbarians get the same for free (as do monks eventually).And if you're not a monk or barbarian? What if you're a gnome wizard who just wants to be able to keep up with the party? Having a 30ft move speed is highly benefitial for such a character. Besides, the barbarian will still benefit from the boost in movement provided by the boots, as his speed boost is unnamed. Becuase +5 Jump checks aren't WORTH 3500 gold. That's what makes the current boots overpriced. 2000 gold for +10 landspeed is actually pretty reasonable. 5500 is not (and no one really cares about +5 Jump).No one cares about a boost to jump checks? I would say that is HIGHLY campaign dependant. What type of game are you playing in? Given that you see no need for more than 10 rounds of accelerated movement per day, I'm guessing its highly combat oriented. I run adventures, not combat sims. There is a lot of exploring and traveling done in my games, and skills that help you get around, such as climb, jump, and swim, see a lot of use (even the party mage has a few ranks in swim). The +9 on jump checks provided by the boots are nothing to scoff at in such a game. In fact, it would have saved a PC's life in the last session. He was fleeing from an enemy and tried to jump to the other side of a pit trap. He failed his check by 5 and fell 50ft into a gelatenous cube. The party was not able to rescue him in time (he failed his save against paralysis), and he died. Now...if the boots were +10 land-speed and +5 tumble, everyone would consider that a very good deal. Moral: Not all skill bonuses are created equal (nor should they cost the same).Actually, anyone without ranks in tumble would think that was worthless, as it cant be used untrained. But you're right, not all skills are created equal. Craft, for instance, probably doesnt see much use outside of down time. Sense motive will be next to useless in a hack-slash game, as will the other social skills, for that matter. Just because certain skills dont see much use in your game doesnt mean bonuses to said skills are worthless.
Polaris 09-01-05, 07:49 PM	smtgmp, For a *fighter* two feats is cheaper than 5500 especially when one of those feats can unlock other feats. I wouldn't say that about characters that don't get the copious bonus feats. In addition, the boots not only cost 5500 but take up an ITEM SLOT. As for fly, you are forgetting spells like phantom steed and overland flight at mid-levels or even (for overland travel) convenional mounts. At lower levels conventional riding mounts are much cheaper than boots and better for overland travel as well. You have just conceeded the point on skills. Look, I am not saying that +10 landspeed is worthless. I AM saying it's not worth 5500 gold. If the boots just contained the +10 speed, then they would only cost 2000 gold which is fair. What part do you think I am missing? Is +5 Jump really worth adding 3500 to the price? -Polaris Edit: BTW, Boots only give +5 Jump not +9. Let's not exaggerate this please.
smrtgmp 09-01-05, 08:02 PM	For a *fighter* two feats is cheaper than 5500 especially when one of those feats can unlock other feats. I disagree. The boots can be sold at later levels when they are no longer as useful. Besides, like I said before, a fighter can benefit from both the boots and speed of thought (unles, of course, he's in heavy armor, in which case the feat is worthless). And since fighters cant spend their bonus feats on psionic feats, that means they have to spend their character level feats on them. In addition, the boots not only cost 5500 but take up an ITEM SLOT.Whats your point? They are likely the first boots you can afford. What else are you going to use that slot for at low levels? As for fly, you are forgetting spells like phantom steed and overland flight at mid-levels or even (for overland travel) convenional mounts. At lower levels conventional riding mounts are much cheaper than boots and better for overland travel as well.Phantom steed takes a 3rd level slot, making it an expendable resourse. Is the party mage going to use all his 3rd level spells to make mounts for the party? What if you have a big party? Conventional mounts are great, but they also present a lot of problems. First of all, you need to invest ranks in ride to use them effectively. Second, they dont fit well into small areas (unles you're a small character on a medium mount). Third, they are easily killed or lost. How many times have you tied a horse up outside a dungeon only to find it missing or butchered upon your return? You have just conceeded the point on skills. Look, I am not saying that +10 landspeed is worthless. I AM saying it's not worth 5500 gold. If the boots just contained the +10 speed, then they would only cost 2000 gold which is fair.All I conceeded is that some skills are better than others in certain situations. I never said jump is a sub-par skill. BTW, Boots only give +5 Jump not +9. Let's not exaggerate this please.They give a +5 competence (or is it ciucumstance?) bonus on jump checks. The 10 increase in speed gives a +4 bonus on jump checks. 5+4=9. As such, the boots give you a +9 bonus on jump checks. How is that an exaggeration?
Polaris 09-01-05, 08:15 PM	I disagree. The boots can be sold at later levels when they are no longer as useful. Besides, like I said before, a fighter can benefit from both the boots and speed of thought (unles, of course, he's in heavy armor, in which case the feat is worthless). And since fighters cant spend their bonus feats on psionic feats, that means they have to spend their character level feats on them. That's only partially true. If you read the XPH, most of the Psi-Feats are designed with the Psychic Warrior and Soul-Knife in mind. That means the synergize very well with fighter bonus feats. Whats your point? They are likely the first boots you can afford. What else are you going to use that slot for at low levels? Why use the slot at all? You are better off with a stat-booster (which costs less), a ring of protection (which costs less and stacks with almost everything), a +2 weapon (which costs only a little more....and in fact at low to mid levels, it's the boots OR a +2 weapon), or pretty much ANYTHING else.... Phantom steed takes a 3rd level slot, making it an expendable resourse. Is the party mage going to use all his 3rd level spells to make mounts for the party? What if you have a big party? Conventional mounts are great, but they also prevent a lot of problems. First of all, you need to invest ranks in ride to use them effectively. Second, they dont fit well into small areas (unles you're a small character on a medium mount). Third, they are easily killed or lost. How many times have you tied a horse up outside a dungeon only to find it missing or butchered upon your return? Phantom Steed lasts all day. As for conventional mounts, no you DON'T need to invest in a lot (if any) ride ranks to use them effectively for overland travel. It's only DC 5 to guide with the knees and most characters can make that reliably with no skill ranks whatsoever. Sure by mid levels, mounts start to suck for overland travel, but by then you have much better alternatives. In addition, only the slow people (usually heavily armored characters) will need to ride which makes the Phantom steed opportunity cost much less. All I conceeded is that some skills are better than others in certain situations. I never said jump is a sub-par skill. You have indirectly because the cost for the boots ASSUME that +5 jump is equal in value to +5 tumble or +5 Use-Magic-Device. That is absurd. Point in fact Jump is a fairly weak skill. Not useless, not necessarily sub-par (although I think it is), but weak in comparison with spot, listen, tumble, etc. They give a +5 competence (or is it ciucumstance?) bonus on jump checks. The 10 increase in speed gives a +4 bonus on jump checks. 5+4=9. As such, the boots give you a +9 bonus on jump checks. How is that an exaggeration? Because it's not true. The +10 speed ONLY gives a +4 jump when determining distances. It does not make it any easier to make that DC 10 Jump check when avoiding damage (for example). You still haven't addressed the point that it is the +5 Jump that makes the boots overpriced....or are you willing to defend that putting +5 jump on an otherwise reasonably priced 2000 gold item (which increases your landspeed by 10) is worth anonther 3500 gold....because that is what you are saying. -Polaris
tiercel 09-01-05, 08:52 PM	The +5 to Jump isn't that useful for a lot of characters... but then, I think it has been discounted. See, I think +10 speed is worth more than 2000gp. First of all, at least some people are willing to cough up full price for boots of striding and springing as is. +10 speed is arguably a better always-on effect than a number of 1st level spells. More to the point, longstrider is a spell most characters will not be able to get access to; you can have the caster in your party put protection from evil or enlarge person on you, but not this. I think that there should be (there isn't, but I think there should be) a line in the magic-item creation guidelines that makes "Self only" spells more expensive in an item. (Should goggles of see invisibility, always on, cost only 18k?) I don't have a problem with 3.5 skill bonus item pricing guidelines. Sure, a +20 Spot item would cost 40k gold by the guidelines, but when you figure that it makes Joe Schmoe into a spotter on part with some of the most skilled scouts in the world, or when it basically lets a skilled spotter see invisible creatures as if they weren't invisible, as well as spotting creatures at 200' as though they were right next to the spotter... that's not terrible. You can still get a substantial +5 bonus to a skill for a mere 2500gp (5000gp if you can't be bothered taking up one of your precious item slots). However, it seems pretty clear that some skills are worth more than others... +5 to Use Rope or Decipher Script should be a lot cheaper than +5 to Spot or Use Magic Device.
smrtgmp 09-02-05, 04:22 AM	That's only partially true. If you read the XPH, most of the Psi-Feats are designed with the Psychic Warrior and Soul-Knife in mind. That means the synergize very well with fighter bonus feats.Are you suggesting a dip into psiwar? That would certainly be far more efficient than a fighter blowing two character level feats. Although, unless you have a wis of 12 or higher, you'll have to take 2 levels, since you dont get any PP at PW1 and you cant maintain a focus without any PP (though once you take 1, you might as well take 4, provided it wont result in an xp penalty). Phantom Steed lasts all day.Does it now? Lets look at the spell description, shall we? Phantom Steed <snip> Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Any other spells you'd care to misquote? As for conventional mounts, no you DON'T need to invest in a lot (if any) ride ranks to use them effectively for overland travel. It's only DC 5 to guide with the knees and most characters can make that reliably with no skill ranks whatsoever.So long as nothing attacks you and you dont have to go underground or traverse any difficult terrain then yes, you dont really need any training to ride a mount. But the second you encounter some sort of obstacle, you're going to wish you knew what you were doing. You have indirectly because the cost for the boots ASSUME that +5 jump is equal in value to +5 tumble or +5 Use-Magic-Device. That is absurd. Point in fact Jump is a fairly weak skill. Not useless, not necessarily sub-par (although I think it is), but weak in comparison with spot, listen, tumble, etc.Again, campaign specific. Furthermore, stop presenting your opinion as fact. It does nothing to strengthen your argument. Concidering one of the most potent melee builds I've ever seen revolves around the jump skill, it can hardly be called weak. Situational, yes. Weak, no. Certain skills are more useful to certain builds than they are to others. That is the nature of this game. The +10 speed ONLY gives a +4 jump when determining distances. It does not make it any easier to make that DC 10 Jump check when avoiding damage (for example).:bored: And which, pray tell, comes up more often? Keep in mind that you can only make a jump check to reduce damage if you purposefully jumped off of something. If you fall, you have to use tumble. But since the bonus on jumping provided by an increase in movement does not apply to all jumps checks, I'll split the difference with you and call it an effective +2. That seems fair. You still haven't addressed the point that it is the +5 Jump that makes the boots overpriced....or are you willing to defend that putting +5 jump on an otherwise reasonably priced 2000 gold item (which increases your landspeed by 10) is worth anonther 3500 gold....because that is what you are saying.Concidering you have failed to address a number of points thus far, that statement is rather hypocritical. And stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that a +5 to jump checks is worth 3500. Its worth 2500, as indicated by the DMG pricing guidelines. HOWEVER, when you combine multiple effects into a single item, the price becomes greater than the sum of its parts, as you are effectively getting multiple items in one. And for the record, I think that 2k for a +10 to speed is somewhat underpriced, given all it does for you. When pricing an item, you have to factor in everything it does. Pricing an item with the CLxSLxgp formulas and nothing more leads down the path to 2k swords of truestriking and the like. That is a dangerous path to follow. I'm sick of this discussion, as its going nowhere fast. Respond if you like, but I'm done. Happy gaming.
Polaris 09-02-05, 04:40 AM	Are you suggesting a dip into psiwar? That would certainly be far more efficient than a fighter blowing two character level feats. Although, unless you have a wis of 12 or higher, you'll have to take 2 levels, since you dont get any PP at PW1 and you cant maintain a focus without any PP (though once you take 1, you might as well take 4, provided it wont result in an xp penalty). I am not suggesting any such thing. Read the Psionic Feats in the XPH. They synergize exceptionally well with fighter feats because fighter feats are also Psi-warrior feats. It is well worth one feat to unlock the Psi-Feats if that is what you want...certainly better than losing two levels. Does it now? Lets look at the spell description, shall we? Any other spells you'd care to misquote? I didn't misquote anything. 1 hour/level IS all day. The minimum caster level is 5 and you are more likely to be using it at levels 7+. That's all day.....anything other false accusations you'd like to make? So long as nothing attacks you and you dont have to go underground or traverse any difficult terrain then yes, you dont really need any training to ride a mount. But the second you encounter some sort of obstacle, you're going to wish you knew what you were doing. When the terrain gets difficult you DISMOUNT. Remember that a party only goes as slow as the slowest member anyway, and you'll be slower on difficult terrain anyway. Unless you are suggesting that every party member is going to buy these boots (which is silly) or that everyone has the same base speed (which is not generally the case), your point doesn't hold. Again, campaign specific. Furthermore, stop presenting your opinion as fact. It does nothing to strengthen your argument. Concidering one of the most potent melee builds I've ever seen revolves around the jump skill, it can hardly be called weak. Situational, yes. Weak, no. Certain skills are more useful to certain builds than they are to others. That is the nature of this game. In your opinion. Jump is a lousy combat skill in most cases. Sure you can trick out a combat skill around jump....for a particular kind of combat, but in general Jump is underwhelming. Not useless. Underwhelming. Certainly it is NOT worth the extra 3500 for the boots. Yes, it is 2500 base, but that is overpriced as well for +5 Jump. :bored: And which, pray tell, comes up more often? Keep in mind that you can only make a jump check to reduce damage if you purposefully jumped off of something. If you fall, you have to use tumble. But since the bonus on jumping provided by an increase in movement does not apply to all jumps checks, I'll split the difference with you and call it an effective +2. That seems fair. Jumping 10' to avoid damage comes up more often. Seriously...it is the one place where Jump is really handy. Concidering you have failed to address a number of points thus far, that statement is rather hypocritical. And stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that a +5 to jump checks is worth 3500. Its worth 2500, as indicated by the DMG pricing guidelines. I've addressed every point you have made and then some. You STILL haven't addressed the fundamental point that the current boots are overpriced because of the Jump Skill boost not the speed boost. Be honest...virtually no one buys the boots to boost their jump. They buy it to boost their land movement. For that the boots are overpriced....and the reason is because adding the Jump enchantment costs an extra 3500...so I am in effect correct. HOWEVER, when you combine multiple effects into a single item, the price becomes greater than the sum of its parts, as you are effectively getting multiple items in one. I-know-that. However, people don't buy boots of striding and spring for the jump boost. They never have. Thus the jump part effectively padds an undeserved 3500 to the price. And for the record, I think that 2k for a +10 to speed is somewhat underpriced, given all it does for you. I don't. Consider that for 4000 you get +2 to any state or a +2 weapon, etc etc. When you compare to like items, 2000 for +10 move is very fair. It also is completely beside the point. The Boots had their priced artifically jacked up with a skill enhancement that virtually no one buys the boots for. When pricing an item, you have to factor in everything it does. Pricing an item with the CLxSLxgp formulas and nothing more leads down the path to 2k swords of truestriking and the like. That is a dangerous path to follow. So you are bound and determined that the boots are fine REGARDLESS of the logic behind the rules or the holes that were shown in it. Nice. I'm sick of this discussion, as its going nowhere fast. Respond if you like, but I'm done. Whatever. -Polaris
smrtgmp 09-02-05, 05:10 AM	Sigh... I am not suggesting any such thing. Read the Psionic Feats in the XPH. They synergize exceptionally well with fighter feats because fighter feats are also Psi-warrior feats. It is well worth one feat to unlock the Psi-Feats if that is what you want...certainly better than losing two levels.So you think you can spend a figher feat on a psionic feat? Got a quote to back that up? I didn't misquote anything. 1 hour/level IS all day. The minimum caster level is 5 and you are more likely to be using it at levels 7+. That's all day.....anything other false accusations you'd like to make?At the point the spell becomes available, 1 hour/level is NOT all day. And given all the mistakes you've made thus far, it is understandable why I would assume you made another. How is that a false accusation? In fact, I'm not convinced you knew what the duration was. I think you're just trying to cover your ass. Unless you are suggesting that every party member is going to buy these boots (which is silly) or that everyone has the same base speed (which is not generally the case), your point doesn't hold.No. What I am suggesting is that someone with a move of 20 might purchace the boots to be able to keep up with his companions. You dont want to be the slowest guy on the team. Its the whole "I dont have to outrun the troll, I just have to outrun you" theory. In your opinion. Jump is a lousy combat skill in most cases. Sure you can trick out a combat skill around jump....for a particular kind of combat, but in general Jump is underwhelming. Not useless. Underwhelming. Certainly it is NOT worth the extra 3500 for the boots. Yes, it is 2500 base, but that is overpriced as well for +5 Jump.In your opinion. We can go back and forth like this forever, which is why I suggested we leave it alone. Jumping 10' to avoid damage comes up more often. Seriously...it is the one place where Jump is really handy.Again, your opinion and campaign specific. I've addressed every point you have made and then some. Actually, you havent. For example. You said that the boots hosed small characters because you added the speed bonus after tabulating encumbrance rather than before. I responded by pointing out that thats actually a good thing and presented the figures to back it up, and you conveniently ignored that because it refuted one of your points. You STILL haven't addressed the fundamental point that the current boots are overpriced because of the Jump Skill boost not the speed boost. Thats because I dont think the boots are overpriced, and thus far you have provided no evidence to the contrary. Your opinion on the matter means nothing without the facts to back it up. Be honest...virtually no one buys the boots to boost their jump. They buy it to boost their land movement. For that the boots are overpriced....and the reason is because adding the Jump enchantment costs an extra 3500If you dont want the jump bonus than commision a pair of boots without it and call it a day. You cant just ignore the skill bonus because you dont like it. ...so I am in effect correct.Talk about jumping to conclusions. However, people don't buy boots of striding and spring for the jump boost. They never have. Thus the jump part effectively padds an undeserved 3500 to the price.How do you know that? Have you interviewed everyone who bought the boots? Are you suggesting that the jump bonus should be free because you dont like it? The boots provide multiple benefits. Whether or not you take advantage of them is irrelevant. I don't. Consider that for 4000 you get +2 to any state or a +2 weapon, etc etc.Where are you getting a +2 weapon for that price? They cost 8k, not 4. Whats that, another mistake? When you compare to like items, 2000 for +10 move is very fair.What like items? What other items provide a continuous boost to your speed? Show them to me so that we can use them as a refrence point. It also is completely beside the point. The Boots had their priced artifically jacked up with a skill enhancement that virtually no one buys the boots for.How do you figure? The boots have been about making you better at running and jumping since past editions. How can the price increase be concidered artificial when you get something in return? And while the boost to jump may not be the primary reason you purchased the boots, you never the less benefit from it being there. So you are bound and determined that the boots are fine REGARDLESS of the logic behind the rules or the holes that were shown in it. Nice.Give me a break. You havent shown anything except that you dont like the boots. If you want to prove a point, bring some facts to the table. Until then, you've got nothing but opinion, and that isnt going to convice me of anything.
Polaris 09-02-05, 05:36 AM	Sigh... So you think you can spend a figher feat on a psionic feat? Got a quote to back that up? I never said that so please stop misquoting me. What I said was that psionic feats SYNERGIZE well with fighter feats which they do. That's because the psionic feats were made with PsiWarrs and Soulknives in mind. At the point the spell becomes available, 1 hour/level is NOT all day. And given all the mistakes you've made thus far, it is understandable why I would assume you made another. How is that a false accusation? In fact, I'm not convinced you knew what the duration was. I think you're just trying to cover your ass. No. 5 hours per day IS effectively all day. Go ask Andy Collins or the other designers (such as Monte Cook). 1hr/day is considered to be "all day" for spell duration. No mistake and you did make a false accusation. No. What I am suggesting is that someone with a move of 20 might purchace the boots to be able to keep up with his companions. You dont want to be the slowest guy on the team. Its the whole "I dont have to outrun the troll, I just have to outrun you" theory. Except there are better ways to do it. First of all a move of 20 is not the end of the world. Even if it were, it's not worth 5500 to mitigate given all the myriad ways of getting +10 movement. [For that matter you can get +5 for a single feat and that IS a fighter bonus feat.] If you look at the wealth guidelines and what is suggested for a single item, you won't be able to afford the boots much before 5th or 6th level anyway...and that's when all the better movement spells open up making the boots sadly obsolete for their price. In your opinion. We can go back and forth like this forever, which is why I suggested we leave it alone. Yes it's my opinion, but it seems to be commonly shared. Almost NO ONE (and this was already admitted to) buys the boots for the +5 jump check but that accounts for most of the cost of the boots. Jump is not worth 2500 base (and +3500 for the boots). Tumble, Use Magic Device, Pick Pockets, etc all are. Skills are not created equal. Again, your opinion and campaign specific. Over the course of almost a score of DnD campaigns with a variety of DMs? Not that campaign specific. Actually, you havent. For example. You said that the boots hosed small characters because you added the speed bonus after tabulating encumbrance rather than before. I responded by pointing out that thats actually a good thing and presented the figures to back it up, and you conveniently ignored that because it refuted one of your points. Actually I *was* wrong on that point. You add the speed first and then do the encumberance. I misread the rule (see I can admit to mistakes). It does hose small characters. Thats because I dont think the boots are overpriced, and thus far you have provided no evidence to the contrary. Your opinion on the matter means nothing without the facts to back it up. Actually I have. Going by the price guidelines (the OFFICIAL RULES for magic item creation), +10 land-speed is only worth 2000 gold. This is very much in line with 4000 for +2 stat, +2 enhancement on armor (for 4000), +1 weapon (for 2000) especially if you look at the feat/class cost. If you dont want the jump bonus than commision a pair of boots without it and call it a day. You cant just ignore the skill bonus because you dont like it. I'm not. You are. You are completely ignoring the fact that the +5 jump skill reflects the lion's share of the price because it proves that the boots are overpriced. [I have yet to find anyone that would agree that +3500 for any item is worth a +5 jump check]. Talk about jumping to conclusions. How do you know that? Have you interviewed everyone who bought the boots? Are you suggesting that the jump bonus should be free because you dont like it? The boots provide multiple benefits. Whether or not you take advantage of them is irrelevant. The very responses on this thread prove my point (and it has come up in EN world and elsewhere). When people talk about boots of striding and springing (regardless of edition), they do so with regard to the increased movement. IMHO you are just being willfully obtuse on this point. Where are you getting a +2 weapon for that price? They cost 8k, not 4. Whats that, another mistake? +2 Armor I meant to day. If that's the best you can do, you should call it a day. What like items? What other items provide a continuous boost to your speed? Show them to me so that we can use them as a refrence point. OK, you asked for it. Winged Boots only cost 16K, but they give 60' of FLYING speed. Yes three times per day for five minutes, but that is all you ever need. If you don't like that, try a Flying carpet for just 4K more at 20K. That doesn't even use an item slot. Both put your boots to SHAME. How do you figure? The boots have been about making you better at running and jumping since past editions. How can the price increase be concidered artificial when you get something in return? And while the boost to jump may not be the primary reason you purchased the boots, you never the less benefit from it being there. The Movement part is 2000 gold. Adding the +5 Jump which you just admitted is a secondary effect costs almost TWICE AS MUCH. "Houston, we have a problem...." Give me a break. You havent shown anything except that you dont like the boots. If you want to prove a point, bring some facts to the table. Until then, you've got nothing but opinion, and that isnt going to convice me of anything. I just did. -Polaris
fawr 09-02-05, 05:58 AM	The point is that I have never seen anyone spend the 5500 on these boots in 3.5 which is a sure sign they are overpriced. They hold out for boots of speed or other footwear instead. -Polaris Strange that. All my players were against it since the 3.0 -> 3.5 changeover. But in the time it took them to get to about 10th level the must have changed their minds, because now everyone except the VoP monk has a pair. My players with heavy armour brought it to keep up. The fast PCs got them because it fitted their builds. Then the "ordianary" speed characters got them because they looked like too good an idea to miss.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-02-05, 09:07 PM	As for the '+9 jump' thing, the fact is that all skills are not created equal. While the skill bonus formula for 3e was perfect for boosting common skills like move silent, hide, spot and listen, and too high for boosting ancillary skills like profession and craft, the higher end skills like spellcraft, umd and pick pockets could make you a golden god in short order. Yup, certainly true. Considering people can fly as early as 3rd level, jump isn't all that useful. Either push back the level at which flying effects are allowed or decrease the cost of jump.
smrtgmp 09-02-05, 10:59 PM	I never said that so please stop misquoting me. I didnt misquote you, I was trying to figure out exactly what you were trying to say. Even if it were, it's not worth 5500 to mitigate given all the myriad ways of getting +10 movement. I never said the speed boost alone was worth the price. ..and that's when all the better movement spells open up making the boots sadly obsolete for their price.How will that help those incapable of casting spells? Are their allies supposed to use up one of their (few) 3rd level spells to facilitate the increase in maneuverability? It does hose small characters. So it does. Actually I have. Going by the price guidelines (the OFFICIAL RULES for magic item creation), +10 land-speed is only worth 2000 gold. Where in the rules does it say this? I just went and checked the table for pricing different effects and it said nothing about a speed boost. I'm not. You are. You are completely ignoring the fact that the +5 jump skill reflects the lion's share of the price because it proves that the boots are overpriced.I'm not ignoring anything. I disagree with you (and your logic). There is a difference. The very responses on this thread prove my point How so? Some people agree with you, some disagree. What does that prove other than people always share the same opinion. IMHO you are just being willfully obtuse on this point.Funny, thats what I think about you. +2 Armor I meant to day.And how should I have known that? Am I expected to read your mind? Try typing what you mean and it will help avoid further confusion. OK, you asked for it. Winged Boots only cost 16K, but they give 60' of FLYING speed. Yes three times per day for five minutes, but that is all you ever need. If you don't like that, try a Flying carpet for just 4K more at 20K. That doesn't even use an item slot. Both put your boots to SHAME.I should hope they put the boots to shame, given that they cost at least 3 times as much. If they didnt, something would be wrong. And concidering neither of those items increase your land speed on a continuous basis, I harldy concider them to be comprable items. The Movement part is 2000 gold.Give me a quote that says +10 move costs 2k, because I cant find it anywhere (which isnt to say it doesnt exist).
Polaris 09-03-05, 12:48 AM	smtgmp, You are wrong about a carpet of flying. It DOES give a continous fly speed (per overland flight) of 40 feet (base) for a single characrer (a 5x5 section of carpet). That carpet costs 20000 gold. That is less than 4 times as much (about 3.5 actually) the costs of boots. The carpet gives the same movement increase as a FLY speed (which effectively gives you an infinate jump skill). It also permits you to do extended marches without fatigue (which doubles your overland movement rate). Furthermore it has a high enough weight capacity that small or slow moving characters (like dwarfs) will NOT have their movement reduced because of encumbrance. In short the carpet is much more than 4x the value of the boots no matter how you slice it (and the same goes for winged boots as well). As for the official rules, take a gander at page 285 of the DMG. The official price for a spell ability on an item that is continously on is 2000xlevelxlevel. This cost is then multiplied by a factor based on the duration of the spell which in the case of 1hr/level spells is a x1 multiplier. Thus an item of longstrider is 2000x1 (level)x1 (level) x1 (1hr/level) or 2000 gold. Thus the OFFICIAL rules state that +10 enhancement bonus to land speed is worth 2000 gold. -Polaris
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-03-05, 01:21 AM	And what the hell does that "sentance" even mean? "+2 armor I meant to day." Its like a subtitle in a bad kung-fu movie. You know exactly what he means. Stop pretending to be an internet tough guy and just argue your points.
xvthreetwoonevx 09-03-05, 01:45 AM	The official rules also state that True Strike on a command word is somewhere around that neighborhood, too. I personally don't like tying items to spells, because it confuses so many people. I've seen so many mistakes, wiht people thinking you don't get bonus spells from CHA enhancing items because eagle's splendor doesn't give you bonus spells, or that a brooch of shielding should give you +4 AC, and countless other things. But that's a rant for another day. However, i'm gonna have to agree with polaris here. I personally think that jump is not as useful a skill as Tumble, or Use Magic Device. Although that is campaign-specific, I have yet to see a campaign where ANY character other than those specifically built around the Jump skill would take a Ring of +5 Jumping over, say, +5 to diplomacy, or tumble, or UMD, or any of those things. I also don't like the fact that over half of the Boots of S&S's value comes from a skill that many characters do not find incredibly useful. I personally allow my PC'S to take just the +10 to speed for 2000 GP, because many of them find the Jump bonus entirely unneccessary. I have yet to see a player that did not take the option of the removal of the jump skill over the inclusion of it. So, while I think the pricing for the item is fair and follows the guidelines for item creation, I disagree with unneccessarily adding the Jump skill bonus and more than doubling the price. And come on you guys, play nice. I'm seeing almost more insults than points, now. :-p
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-03-05, 02:13 AM	I agree speed bonuses ashouldn't be tied to spells. They should probably have thier own formula like skills. And skills should have tiers based on thier overall usefullness.
Polaris 09-03-05, 02:27 AM	I agree speed bonuses ashouldn't be tied to spells. They should probably have thier own formula like skills. And skills should have tiers based on thier overall usefullness. I would agree with that in principle as well. I was challenged, however, on what was official so I gave the official answer (setting aside the wisdom of the same). Actually if you are interested in land-speed, boots of expeditious retreat are better than boots of striding. That's because expeditious retreat adds +30 enhancement to land-speed, is a first level spell, and lasts a min/level. That makes this item worth 4,000 which I *do* think is a bit too cheap. My suggested formula for land speed would be this: 1000*2*Exp(+Speed/10) gold I.E. +10 speed would be 1000*2^1 or 2000 gold +20 speed would be 1000*2^2 or 4000 gold +30 speed would be 1000*2^3 or 8000 gold I personally wouldn't allow enhancements beyond +30. -Polaris
smrtgmp 09-03-05, 03:05 AM	You are wrong about a carpet of flying. It DOES give a continous fly speed (per overland flight) of 40 feet (base) for a single characrer (a 5x5 section of carpet). That carpet costs 20000 gold. That is less than 4 times as much (about 3.5 actually) the costs of boots.How am I wrong? I said it didnt give a continuous boost to land speed, and it doesnt. Carpets of flying rock. I love them. They are some of my favorite items. As for the official rules, take a gander at page 285 of the DMG. The official price for a spell ability on an item that is continously on is 2000xlevelxlevel. This cost is then multiplied by a factor based on the duration of the spell which in the case of 1hr/level spells is a x1 multiplier.You mean the pricing GUIDELINES? The same ones that yield a 2000gp sword of truestrike? The ones that are supposed to be used as a last resort? Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values. <snip> Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.emphasis mine Thus the OFFICIAL rules state that +10 enhancement bonus to land speed is worth 2000 gold.They're guidelines, not rules. Stop pretending to be an internet tough guy and just argue your points.I'm not pretending to be anything. I was just ticked off. You are, however, correct. That comment was totally inappropriate. In fact, I thought I had edited out that line because I found it to be too childish. Apparently while going back and forth between the prieview post and editing my post, I messed up somewhere, and for that I apologize.
Polaris 09-03-05, 03:18 AM	Smtgmp, Nitpick: The sword of truestrike can't be made by these guidelines at least not as a continuous item. Now it so happens that all the movement based items DO follow these rules to the letter including Boots of Striding and Springing. It also so happens that all rules are guidelines per rule-0. You asked if there was an official rule that made +10 land-speed 2,000 gold. I proved that there was. Furthermore the boots FOLLOW this cost. -Polaris
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-03-05, 03:38 AM	My suggested formula for land speed would be this: 1000*2*Exp(+Speed/10) gold I.E. +10 speed would be 1000*2^1 or 2000 gold +20 speed would be 1000*2^2 or 4000 gold +30 speed would be 1000*2^3 or 8000 gold I personally wouldn't allow enhancements beyond +30. -Polaris I'm tinkering around with one of my own, but I want to account for larger boosts and anything that makes +90 fair makes +30 in-frickin'-sane. Maybe just flat pricing out to +120... At the same time, I'd like to work up something that improves other speeds.
smrtgmp 09-03-05, 04:02 AM	Nitpick: The sword of truestrike can't be made by these guidelines at least not as a continuous item.Very true. I refrenced it because it's the most commonly used example of the pricing guidelines gone awry, a la Seeker's sig. The pricing guidelines can, however, give you items like a command word activated ring of CLW for 1800gp, which is clearly underpriced. It also so happens that all rules are guidelines per rule-0.:bored: You asked if there was an official rule that made +10 land-speed 2,000 gold. I proved that there was. Furthermore the boots FOLLOW this cost.What I was asking for was something that provided a formula for an increase in speed (similar to the one used for skill bonuses), rather than using the SLxCLxgp formula which often leads to trouble. Can we just agree to disagree and leave it at that? It is becoming abundantly clear that neither of us is going to convince the other of anything. You think the boots are overpriced; I think they're not. PS-While we're nitpicking, there is a "t" in smrtgmp (smart gimp without the vowels, insipred by Homer Simpson's "I am so smart, S-M-R-T"). Not that I particulary care. Thats what I get for picking a username that doesnt exactly roll off the tongue.
Raven Dark 09-03-05, 09:37 AM	The ones that are supposed to be used as a last resort? I think the guidelines are there as a first resort, a base to start from, not as a last resort. Polaris: Nice guideline, but it gets a little cheesy with the higher speeds. I think that (at the cheapest) it should be 2,000gp (+10 ft.), 4,000gp (+20 ft.), 8,000gp (+30 ft.), 16,000gp (+40 ft.), 32,000gp (+50 ft.), 64,000gp (+60 ft.), and 128,000gp (+70 ft.). This way, a typical medium-sized character can't get more than 100 ft. total movement speed before epic levels (because doubling the price again would mean the price would be over 200,000gp). What is the formula for this method anyhow? I'm not a mathemitician and can't seem to figure it out.
Merestil Haye 09-03-05, 09:53 AM	The formula is 2^(Speed bonus/10) * 1,000gp The guidelines referred to are a last resort. You first look to see if an existing item is comparable, and use that as a baseline. EG for an effect that creates an armour bonus you would price it according to armour enhancement rules. Thus your always-on item with Mage Armour does not come out to 2,000gp but 16,000gp. Just like a +4 enhancement bonus to armour.
Raven Dark 09-03-05, 11:21 AM	The formula is 2^(Speed bonus/10) * 1,000gp And that matches the numbered priced from +10 ft. to +70 ft.? In any case, thanks. The guidelines referred to are a last resort. You first look to see if an existing item is comparable, and use that as a baseline. EG for an effect that creates an armour bonus you would price it according to armour enhancement rules. Thus your always-on item with Mage Armour does not come out to 2,000gp but 16,000gp. Just like a +4 enhancement bonus to armour. Thats all well and good. I even agree with your example. It's just that I thought most people started with the guidelines as a baseline, and then made comparisons to existing items. I suppose it really doesn't matter which order you do it in. :)
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-03-05, 12:34 PM	Very true. I refrenced it because it's the most commonly used example of the pricing guidelines gone awry, a la Seeker's sig. The pricing guidelines can, however, give you items like a command word activated ring of CLW for 1800gp, which is clearly underpriced. Seeker's sword, while characteristically snarky doesn't take into account what the TS spell actually does. It doesn't work. The ring of CLW is also wrong because Forge ring is CL9 to start. This is the thing about all magic items: The guidelines don't take into consideration the usefullness of some lower level spells as continuous effects and certainly don't take into consideration the lack of usefulness of many higher level spells. At the same time, many of the existing items are purposefully too bloody expensive for what they do and therefore are useless to use as a baseline. The designers often don't use the guidelines and the items the made (wings of flying) are bad to use as guidelines. So where does that leave us? Playtesting our own damn selves.
Keenath 09-03-05, 01:10 PM	Caster level x Spell level x 2000 often DOES lead to trouble, but it's precisely what the designers used on the Boots of S&S. We worked this out on the first page. Longstrider, all the time: 1x1x2000 = 2000 gold. Skill bonus (jump): 5^2 x 100 = 2500 gold. As per the rules, multiple magical abilities increase the cost of the less expensive ones by 150%. So the Longstrider power goes up to 3000. 3000 + 2500 = 5500, which is exactly what the Boots cost. This is the method the designers used. Therefore the use of the longstrider spell is appropriate to a 10 ft. boost in speed, and a 10 foot speed boost should cost 2000! The weird thing is, nobody buys boots of S&S for the jump bonus. If they wanted a jump bonus, they'd have bought a ring of jumping and saved the extra three thousand cash. The jump bonus is just a little tack-on bonus, while the real point of the boots is the running speed! And yet, the skill bonus is more expensive than the primary ability, before you apply the cost boost for multipurpose items. The Boots, to be balanced, should be worth 3500, like they were in 3.0, but with the new (much reduced) speed bonus. And the rings of jumping should be cheaper, but that's another thread.
Roxlimn 09-03-05, 01:26 PM	I disagree. I think that the items the designers made have been purposefully priced the way they are for very good reasons. They are thus the best guidelines to use, and the DMG explicitly tells us to do so. If you have no reason to change this ruling, then you should probably not do so until you know what the heck you're doing. One of the reasons I think the Boots are fairly priced is that I believe that this is an intentional emphasis on class and race abilities as primary sources of speed increases. If you really want a speed increase, I think the designers intended for you to prefer to multiclass into a core class for it rather than just spend gold on such an item. It also reflects on how powerful these speed increases are, relatively speaking. If everyone can acquire Divine Grace as a 2000 gp item, then saves and the Divine Grace feature would be valued less as a result. It's an exaggeration, but that's the point I think the Boots are trying to make. So, if you could get speed increases else, why purchase Boots? Well, I guess it's a little like Magical Weapons. You can get plusses from feats and various class powers, but most people try to get as much as they can and layer it on thick. The Boots allow you to increase your movement overland for the listed price, but it's probably best to use as the end-modifier. That is, the most expensive modifier, being the last in a series of movement modifying powers like Barbarian Fast Movement and/or Dash, among other things. Powers like Haste and Flight do not, after all, make the Boots obsolete. For one thing, you can't Run when you're Flying, so that means that a Longstride Shifter Barabarian with the Boots on and the Run feat can probably move a lot faster than a someone with Winged Boots, especially in short bursts. In fact, since both the Carpet and Broom of Flying both access the Overland Flight spell, it's not true that you can move overland (or even in tactical distances) faster with those items than with Boots of Striding and Springing. The Boots on a Barbarian using Light armor will grant a movement of 50. Overland Flight only grants a movement of 40. In Medium Armor, both movement rates decrease, so the Boots would still win out. I don't think it's fair to judge baseline prices as generally overpriced so flippantly, and without regard for campaign differences. Even if you think it's overpriced, it may not be true in other campaigns, particularly if your campaign is "unique" in interpretation or rules use. It's best to give the designers the benefit of the doubt, both as a sign of respect to their expertise and to prevent yourself from looking like an ignorant fool. In many cases, it's easier for players to accept a price decrease than a price increase, so erring on the side of pricier makes the game easier to run and customize for most DMs.
smrtgmp 09-03-05, 02:11 PM	Seeker's sword, while characteristically snarky doesn't take into account what the TS spell actually does. It doesn't work.I know, and I aknowledged as much in response to Polaris The ring of CLW is also wrong because Forge ring is CL9 to start.Incorrect. First of all, you need a CL of 12 to get Forge Ring. FORGE RING [ITEM CREATION] Prerequisite: Caster level 12th. Second, that is the requirement for the feat; you are free to make a ring with a caster level less than that. As an example: [Ring of] Feather Falling: This ring is crafted with a feather pattern all around its edge. It acts exactly like a feather fall spell, activated immediately if the wearer falls more than 5 feet. Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Forge Ring, feather fall; Price 2,200 gp.emphasis mine The designers often don't use the guidelines and the items the made (wings of flying) are bad to use as guidelines. So where does that leave us? Playtesting our own damn selves.I agree.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-03-05, 04:32 PM	I don't think it's fair to judge baseline prices as generally overpriced so flippantly, and without regard for campaign differences. Even if you think it's overpriced, it may not be true in other campaigns, particularly if your campaign is "unique" in interpretation or rules use. They're overpriced based on thier own guidelines. They're over priced base on general use (Have you ever seen a player excited to buy a cape of montebank?) And they're over priced against the avilability of thier abilities based on the average party. It's best to give the designers the benefit of the doubt, both as a sign of respect to their expertise and to prevent yourself from looking like an ignorant fool. Why should I? They do things to thier own flavor or bending to sacred cows just as much as anyone else. I can name five posters off the top of my head whose design expertise I respect far more than the 'top' designers. They're only mortal men that happened to get the job. No more, no less. Except Sean Reynolds. That guy's awesome reguardless of why I think of some of his work.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-03-05, 10:07 PM	Why should I? They do things to thier own flavor or bending to sacred cows just as much as anyone else. I can name five posters off the top of my head whose design expertise I respect far more than the 'top' designers. They're only mortal men that happened to get the job. No more, no less. Yeah, I think the designer's opinions can be very overvalued, especially on these boards. The designers made a lot of mistakes. Their "expertise" is the very reason we have the 3.5 uber druid and stupid overpowered classes like the hulking hurler and the frenzied berserker. They also brought us the ever so unbalanced polymorph mechanics. The designers just aren't perfect. And talking about bad magic item pricing, here's a real obvious example. Check out bracers of armor +4. Yes, the same magic item that acts like an always on mage armor. For a whole 16,000 gold. If that isn't overpriced, then I don't know what is... So much for the designer's judgment being infallible.
Lord Schpungus 09-03-05, 10:23 PM	Just because the WotC designers are fallible doesn't mean that Vaalingrade is infallible, or that Mongoose is infallible, or that Monte Cook needs to be worshipped like he is, or that Green Ronin is infallible. You seem to be placing the fallibility solely on the shoulders of WotC, and that just isn't right.
Polaris 09-03-05, 10:30 PM	Just because the WotC designers are fallible doesn't mean that Vaalingrade is infallible, or that Mongoose is infallible, or that Monte Cook needs to be worshipped like he is, or that Green Ronin is infallible. I don't recall reading that he said any such thing. You seem to be placing the fallibility solely on the shoulders of WotC, and that just isn't right. Frankly that's where the lion's share of it belongs. That's because what is and is not *official* lies first and last with the WOTC design team. All other DnD and d20 designers have to base their rules and houserules from the WOTC official rules. That means that WOTC has an extra responsibility to get it right....and frankly they haven't been up to it. -Polaris
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-03-05, 11:35 PM	Just because the WotC designers are fallible doesn't mean that Vaalingrade is infallible, or that Mongoose is infallible, or that Monte Cook needs to be worshipped like he is, or that Green Ronin is infallible. You seem to be placing the fallibility solely on the shoulders of WotC, and that just isn't right. Well, I am the single perfect template from which all other gamers were created, a shining glory of destiny for those that chuck dice, write webcomics, or freelance tutor computing. but that's nearly here nor there. My point is that we shouldn't cling to the pricing guidlines, especially in the areas they break down just because the WotC designers made them. We should collaborate and think for ourselves, developing things that work better. In this thread, for example, we've been having a delightful discussion about new formulas for speed enhancements. Can we get back to that now and have a new thread elsewhere discussing the divinity of myself or the game designers? Probably not here, they don't take kindly to bad mouthing specific designers and I may feel the need to cut loose. Luckily, there are other venues (http://www.ledgermaincomics.com/forum). >_>
Tainted Geomancer 09-04-05, 12:31 AM	I just like it to be known that after reading though your arguements and thoughts on the BoS&S I have come to realize how helpful they would be to my character (a Halfling Ranger). The -6 to jump checks for 20 movement is rather unpleasent, having to not waste a spell slot on Longstrider is a major bonus. I think once my character has the enough gold (only like 3500gp to go) I'll get a pair. Maybe I'll get the Dash feat (Complete Warrior), and have a happy 35' movement. Thanks for all the insight :D .
aelryinth 09-04-05, 04:04 AM	For those arguing the Speed bonus to Jump should be included in the Jump bonus, keep in mind that in 3.0E Jump distance was based on multipliers of 30' speed x your jump distance. Thus the +30 to move and +30 to jump was actually granting a +60 to jump, since it added another multiplier to your Jump distance, and this was not figured in the price. While the cost of the Boots above works out with Longstrider and the Jump bonus following the pricing guidelines, we don't know if there is actually a pricing guideline relative to speed bonuses, as there is for competence, enhancement and other bonuses. So, it's just a best guess. Note that there is considerable variance in the value of speed increases when you start figuring in weight, unnamed/named, and such things. Expeditious Retreat statted out to an all day spell is what, 6th level (Persistent). So a +30 all day speed boost could get pretty hasty. Even a 5th level spell would work out priced pretty highly. Also, everyone is arguing about cost vs boots of speed. Boots of speed kept most of their usage in 3.5E at the same price. Boots of Striding reduced their effect and were WAY underpriced in 3.0, and everyone knows it. Nothing is saying you can't make boots of Speed and Striding, you know? ==Aelryinth
Roxlimn 09-06-05, 10:14 PM	Vaalingrade Ashland: They're overpriced based on thier own guidelines. They're over priced base on general use (Have you ever seen a player excited to buy a cape of montebank?) And they're over priced against the avilability of thier abilities based on the average party. That's internally inconsistent. Specific item prices in the DMG are the definitive guideline for pricing magic items, trumping the table you seem to be referring to. That table is the singlemost worst presented mechanic in the game, at least as far as you're concerned, because the DMG apparently makes people think that it's the definitive guideline. It's not. The definitive guideline is actual item prices, and that's quite explicitly stated. Moreover, acquisition of particular abilities by class is not priced, so I can't see how you can be making any statement to the contrary. Why should I? They do things to thier own flavor or bending to sacred cows just as much as anyone else. I can name five posters off the top of my head whose design expertise I respect far more than the 'top' designers. They're only mortal men that happened to get the job. No more, no less. Except Sean Reynolds. That guy's awesome reguardless of why I think of some of his work. Of course they do. They flavor their items just like everyone else. It's like what I'm always saying about this mythical "balance" thing. The Druid isn't "unbalanced," and neither is the Cleric. They're simply powered more in relation to other classes in very particular ways. If you like how these classes are performing in your game, then they're balanced for you. If not, then they're not. This is just as true for them as for any other class, race, item, or rule. Never modifying these rules is not what I said, and it contradicts basic DMG usage anyway. What I said that you should respect the opinion of these designers because they actually get paid by the leading D&D producing company in the business to produce what they're producing. You may or may not disagree with what they produce, or you may think they occasionally completely miss their mark. However, you don't get paid to produce these things, and unless these 5 posters you respect can claim to be prominent WotC authors, you can't say the same about them, either. I don't believe that they "just happened to get the job," you see. I believe from what I see on WotC product that they are very good at what they do, and the recent compost heap of third party product out there tells me that I'm right. I don't worship any one WotC author, and I happen to disagree with many of them on some particulars, but I respect their opinion and expertise all the same. One does not need to be a rude, incoherent, disrespectful fool to disagree. For example, I respect Bruce Cordell and I praise his Expanded Psionics Handbook regularly, but there are certainly entires in the Tome and Blood that I took issue with, and the original Psionics Handbook was just plain bad. Likewise for Monte Cook, Richard Baker, and many other prominent WotC authors. They're mortal men, yes, but they're very competent game designer mortal men, and I haven't seen a single poster on these boards that I can point a finger to and say that his design chops are better. To further the point, I'd like to point out that I can likewise disagree with my fellow MD on a matter of patient management, but I don't have to call him names to make my point. Nor do I have to disparage his management style or scheme. I simply make my own point, and I happen to think that that should stand well enough on its own without any need on my part to call anyone or anything names. but that's nearly here nor there. My point is that we shouldn't cling to the pricing guidlines, especially in the areas they break down just because the WotC designers made them. We should collaborate and think for ourselves, developing things that work better. Like a complex mathematical formula for universal item pricing, I take it? Lots of posters around these parts talk big, but they can't act big when it comes down to it. I don't believe you've shown as yet any design skill worthy of comparison to what's the core books, let alone bettering it. I don't think that the core pricings are prefect, but I haven't seen anything better, and frankly, I doubt that you can come up with one. I don't believe that we should strictly adhere to WotC pricing, especially in our own private games, but I strongly believe that you should probably play the game as it is for a while before making any changes. More relevantly, I think you should take a broader view of game design as a widespread phenomenon and a business proposition to boot before you come around criticizing it unfairly! In fact, unless anyone's criticism is constructive, I rather think that they should keep it to themselves, just as a reminder to those whose mothers overlooked telling them this vital and basic piece of manners. Archtyrant Terevoth: Yeah, I think the designer's opinions can be very overvalued, especially on these boards. The designers made a lot of mistakes. Their "expertise" is the very reason we have the 3.5 uber druid and stupid overpowered classes like the hulking hurler and the frenzied berserker. They also brought us the ever so unbalanced polymorph mechanics. The designers just aren't perfect. No one ever claimed, least of all me, that the designers were perfect. I just happen to think that most of the WotC authors are savvy enough and skilled enough in game design to deserve respect. Is the 3.5 Druid uber? Some people seem to think so. It's not so simple as that, though, and I'm disappointed that you would try to cast aspersions on the ability of D&D designers by so clumsy an attempt. Surely there are better examples of clearer cut snafus? Even so, just because they make mistakes doesn't mean that they're typewriter monkeys. They're very good, just not perfect. And talking about bad magic item pricing, here's a real obvious example. Check out bracers of armor +4. Yes, the same magic item that acts like an always on mage armor. For a whole 16,000 gold. If that isn't overpriced, then I don't know what is... Honestly? It depends. It may be overpriced, but then again, it may not. Saying that specific class features trump that is no proof. I keep getting this idea that class features like actual skills and spells are actually supposed to be easier to get than getting the same through an item. Indeed, what would be the point of getting the Mage Armor spell if the Bracers are cheap enough to supplant it in many applications? You think that the Bracers are too expensive, but you've no proof of that. You can have your own opinion, and you can really price them the way you like in your own games, but I rather would like the current DMG price just the way it is, thanks very much. Polaris: Frankly that's where the lion's share of it belongs. That's because what is and is not *official* lies first and last with the WOTC design team. All other DnD and d20 designers have to base their rules and houserules from the WOTC official rules. That means that WOTC has an extra responsibility to get it right....and frankly they haven't been up to it. Who has? It's a very tricky thing, certainly, and not at all an objective target. Having said all that, is it possible for people to concentrate more on how the item ought to be priced and less on how incompetent we think WotC designers are at their paid-for jobs? aelryinth: While the cost of the Boots above works out with Longstrider and the Jump bonus following the pricing guidelines, we don't know if there is actually a pricing guideline relative to speed bonuses, as there is for competence, enhancement and other bonuses. So, it's just a best guess. Note that there is considerable variance in the value of speed increases when you start figuring in weight, unnamed/named, and such things. There is a pricing guideline in the books for the value of speed in magic items. The Boots of Striding and Springing. I wouldn't say that you can't question this value and come up with one that's better suited to your own tastes, but that would be like trying to reprice Staff creation pricings, which also isn't unreasonable, if you prefer an alternative method. Expeditious Retreat statted out to an all day spell is what, 6th level (Persistent). So a +30 all day speed boost could get pretty hasty. Even a 5th level spell would work out priced pretty highly. Even that would be fairly undervalued if you consider that doing Persistent on a 1 min./level spell is actually in favor of powering up the effect slightly. A 10 min/level effect is more fair, IMO, to Persistent. This presumes that it's workable for us to use the table guidelines in and of themselves, which is a questionable premise to be working off of, in itself. Generally speaking, you should be comparing prices to existing items e.g. Boots of Striding and Springing. This item is itself a pricing guideline. If it disagrees with table values, then it obviously takes precendence, meaning that the table is what's inconsistent, not the item. Of course, no one ever said that the table was very consistent or useful to begin with, which is why the DMG recommends that you only use it as a last resort, and even then, only to give you a very rough ballpark estimate. Also, everyone is arguing about cost vs boots of speed. Boots of speed kept most of their usage in 3.5E at the same price. Boots of Striding reduced their effect and were WAY underpriced in 3.0, and everyone knows it. Nothing is saying you can't make boots of Speed and Striding, you know? I was under the impression that Boots of Speed granted 3.0E Haste in 3e. True? If that's the case, then the Boots have been greatly depowered from between the revisions, at least as far as casters are concerned.
Polaris 09-06-05, 10:24 PM	Roxlimn, Normally I don't respond to you and I won't in the future, but I can't let what you said pass. I am using the items listed in the DMG (not just the table) to determine that +10 Landspeed is only woth 2000 gold. It's a matter of simple subtraction (and the understanding that two enchantments on the same item adds +50% to the cost of the lesser valued enchantment which is standard). Boots of Striding and Leaping: +10 Move, +5 Jump, Retail: 5500 gold Ring of Jumping: +5 Jump, Retail 2500 gold When you subract, you get that +10 move is 3000 gold, but then you have to multiply by 1/(3/2) in order to account for the doubling effect mentioned above. Final value for +10 Landspeed: +2000 gold just using the items in the book. -Polaris
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-06-05, 10:37 PM	What I said that you should respect the opinion of these designers because they actually get paid by the leading D&D producing company in the business to produce what they're producing. The Microsoft code monkey that designed Internet Explorer salutes you. That's all I'll say here anymore on that subject. Maybe we can get back on the topic of the overpriced boots of S&S now?
Roxlimn 09-06-05, 10:58 PM	Polaris: I don't normally respond to you either, but then again, I also don't normally see anything worth responding to. I didn't see your argument as valid, and I still don't, but seeing as you addressed it to me, allow me to demolish it as best I can: It's a matter of simple subtraction (and the understanding that two enchantments on the same item adds +50% to the cost of the lesser valued enchantment which is standard). Boots of Striding and Leaping: +10 Move, +5 Jump, Retail: 5500 gold Ring of Jumping: +5 Jump, Retail 2500 gold When you subract, you get that +10 move is 3000 gold, but then you have to multiply by 1/(3/2) in order to account for the doubling effect mentioned above. Final value for +10 Landspeed: +2000 gold just using the items in the book. What this argument fails to understand is that pricing magic items is not a simple matter of subtracting set values. In fact, the fact that you refer at all to +50% means that you're using table rules to deconstruct a set item meant as a guideline in itself, a questionable excercise to begin with. Even so, there are at least two ways in which your argument is incorrect: 1. You're assuming that the Speed is the added value. It could just as easily be the Jump enhancement. If we assume that Speed costs 2000 gp, then doing it the other way around would yield a different value, thus, 2000 gp is just as arbitrary as anything more or less than that value. 2. You also argue that the Jump skill should probably be priced less than what the table indicates, since it is a less generally usable skill than Spot or Hide, which has items which adhere to pricing guidelines. Thus, if this were true, then the fraction of the Jump costs in 5500 gp should rightly be valued less than the Speed portion, which would not be the case if the Jump portion were valued at 2500 gp. Indeed, it should be just as fair (or even fairer) to say that Boots of Striding should be valued at 3500 gp without the Jump enhancement, and that adding Jump adds only 2000 gp, which should be how you should rule it, if you think that Jump is not worth that much. Generally speaking, breaking down items into component items that have different demand (like a Boots of Striding that would be more desirable than a Boots of S&S) is an excercise in bad judgement. The Boots of S&S is presumably the most desirable item. Component items or derivative items should be priced at least competitively. So, if you judge that +5 Jump Boots is not worth 2500 gp, then you should not price it that way and thus, in your campaign, they should be priced cheaper. Conversely, Boots of Striding should be priced correspondingly higher. Thus, the 2000 gp for Jump Boots and 3500 gp for Striding Boots. Adjust the pricing as needed according to how you see them as being purchasable. Note that I did not reduce the pricing for being cast in individual items, in keeping with the presumption that players shouldn't be routinely deconstructing items just to get the property they want. The presumption here is that for some reason, making Boots of S&S is cheaper than it would otherwise be, and thus it's more popular, and thus it's the mainstream item. You can feel free to rule otherwise, but I've found that that just creates a slew of players customizing item abilities in preference to just making "stock" items from the DMG, and I prefer not to have to rule on custom items on an everyday basis. So how much would a Boots of Striding really be worth? Well, it depends on you, and it should be based on the guideline item, which is Boots of Striding and Springing. If the Boots of Striding makes the Boots of S&S obsolete, it's probably too cheap. Vaalingrade Ashland: That's all I'll say here anymore on that subject. Maybe we can get back on the topic of the overpriced boots of S&S now? Sure we can, but nothing you've argued so far is worth rebutting.
Polaris 09-06-05, 11:06 PM	Roxlimn, Sigh...I am responding to you one more time because you clearly don't get it. On page 288 of the DMG there is a *non*-optional rule (as non-optional as any other rule) that states that when you add a second enchantment onto the first and that item takes a slot, you add 50% to the cost. This is always done to the lowest cost enchantment. Look, you, this IS a matter of simple subtraction. A ring of jumping is worth 2500 gold. This same enchantment is also on boots of Striding and Springing, so we subtract 2500 from the cost. That leaves us with a cost of 2000 gold for +10 landspeed once the 50% factor is taken care of. I used no optional rules and no interpretation. Deal. -Polaris
Roxlimn 09-06-05, 11:31 PM	Polaris: I got it alright. The deal here is that you are using the rules incorrectly, at least as far as I see it. You see, page 288 "Adding New Abilities" of the DMG applies only insomuch as you are adding new abilities (per stock items) onto existing magic items. Even this rule is subject to the "Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Value" sidebar in that you are effectively creating a custom item, and this you should "match a new item to an item priced in this chapter..." We are not adding a Speed enhancement to a Ring of Jumping. Both Ring of Jumping and Boots of S&S are stock items and are thus held to be the guideline by which all other (derived) items are priced. Retrofitting the "Adding New Abilities" is one way to do it, but it isn't the only way, and it certainly isn't a "hard-core" way. To put it another way, you could say that adding an additional +5 to Jump from the Ring of Jumping on a preexisting Boots of S&S would cost 1.5 x 2500 for a final cost of 3750 + 5500 = 9250 gp, but you cannot apply the rule retroactively to existing items, because it is not a retroactive rule. It uses exisiting items to preestimate combined items, but it does not and cannot deconstruct the items on which its function is based. I guess the only reason you'd see it that way was because you didn't understand these rules clearly enough. We do not subtract things from existing items to arrive at approximate costs for isolated abilities. The "Adding New Abilities" rule says nothing of the sort and is not applicable thereby. If you cannot comprehend alternate methods or the necessary limitations of the rules you think you understand, at least find out before you post it publicly.
Polaris 09-07-05, 12:14 AM	*I* am using the rules perfectly. There are some here that are in denial; simple as that. Both boots of striding and springing and a ring of jumping are standard items. Check The boots have two magical effects on them while the ring has one. Check The ring has the same magical effect as one of the enchantments on the boots. Check. There are explict rules for how to price/make items with two enchantments. Check It's elementary logic, then that we can use two STANDARD items and the STANDARD rule for multiple enchantment to project what the price of the missing enchantmnet (+10 landspeed) has to be and I have done so. <SNIP ... be nice. -- WizO the Hutt> -Polaris
Roxlimn 09-07-05, 12:45 AM	OK, Polaris, I'll run it in the same terms you do so I have a greater chance getting it through. Both boots of striding and springing and a ring of jumping are standard items. Check Yup. No question there. The boots have two magical effects on them while the ring has one. Check The boots don't have two magical effects on them. They're magic items, not mundane items with magical effects on them. They grant magical effects to their wearer, but saying that they have magical effects on them, and a discrete two, that takes a bit of establishing. The ring has the same magical effect as one of the enchantments on the boots. Check. Demonstrably true, of course. There are explict rules for how to price/make items with two enchantments. Check Nuh-uh. The rules you quote are for how to combine existing magic item enhancements into the same item. It is not a generic rule for combining specific generic magical enhancements into particular items. Thus, you can add Ring of Jumping effects into Boots of Striding and Sprining, but you can't retrocalculate the cost for the Speed enhancement, except by extending the rule to mean the way you mean it. The rule does not do what you think it does, and that's really all there is to it.
Polaris 09-07-05, 01:56 AM	Sorry but the rules *do* say exactly what I claim. All I am doing is using the rules and converting them into mathematic logic. The rules say that if an item has two magical enchantments put on it, the second enchantment costs +50% more than the first. That gives us a formula of k=x+1.5*y where k is the total cost, x is the cost for the first enchantment, and y is the cost of the second enchantment. This is restating the rule on page 288 of the DMG without loss of generality. FURTHERMORE, it is demonstrably true that Boots of Striding and Springing have two different enchantments on them (look at the prerequisite spells if you don't believe me). The first adds +10 land-speed and is based on the landstrider spell, the second gives +5 Jump skill and requires 5 ranks of the Jump skill. You must have both in order to craft this item. The boots cost 5500 gold (this is k). Now look at a ring of jumping. It only has one enchantment, but it is patently the same enchantment that exists on the Boots of Striding and Spring, i.e. +5 Jump checks and it requires the creator to have 5 ranks in the Jump skill (identical to the boots). This item costs 2500 gold. This is x. We now can solve for y without loss of generality. y=(k-x)/1.5=(5500-2500)/1.5 y=2000 gold. I have added no information, no assumptions. I used the rules AS WRITTEN and came up with the price for +10 landspeed by the rules. Thus the rules SAY (via mathematic deduction which was done without loss of generality) that +10 landspeed costs 2000 gold (base). -Polaris
FlameLover 09-07-05, 02:53 AM	Sorry Polaris but I have to generally agree with Roxlimn, the designers have admited that they priced items before they made the guidelines and as such any attempt to 'reverse-engineer' them is futile. The best idea is to make a formula based on what we do know, and that's what i'll try and do now. I'd price them like this: (x*2)*(1,000gp) (x = speed increase divided by 5) Simple? So +5 speed is 2,000gp worth, +10 is 4,000gp, +15 is worth 6,000gp etc. Now that doesn't increase exponentially so we'll use this: (x^2)*(500gp) So +5 speed is 500gp worth, +10 2,000gp, +20 8,000gp etc. and you could only get, therefore, +60ft. before Epic for 180,000gp. Seems fair to me.
Polaris 09-07-05, 03:31 AM	FlameLover, I think you missed my point. I am not using those guidelines. That's what I mean by "without loss of generality". It so happens that the guidelines also give a price of +10 Landspeed for 2000, but that's a pure accident. I used three OFFICIAL rules. 1. I used the official boots of Striding and Leaping. 2. I used the official Ring of Jumping. 3. I used the OFFICIAL rules for putting a second enchantment onto a preexisting slotted item. All the rest is a straightline deduction thus the rules do say that +10 landspeed is 2000 gold using existing items as the only standard. -Polaris
Roxlimn 09-07-05, 10:46 AM	Polaris: You obviously cannot understand the rebuttal because you're not even engaging it on anything like an intelligent counter. All you're doing is reiterating a refuted point. This is my final repetition of the counter. I've had to repeat multiple versions of an explanation to you in the past, and my experience has shown that if you don't get it once, you'll never get it. However, for the benefit of lurkers: Sorry but the rules *do* say exactly what I claim. All I am doing is using the rules and converting them into mathematic logic. What makes you think that the rules can be subject to such treatment? The rules say that if an item has two magical enchantments put on it, the second enchantment costs +50% more than the first. Completely incorrect. The rules say, and I quote: A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword. The relevant passage follows: If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5. For example, you can add the Boots of Striding and Springing ability to an preexisting Ring of Jumping, and that would cost 1.5 times the cost of Boots of Striding and Springing. The reverse would be true if you tried to add the ability of a Ring of Jumping to a Boots of Striding and Springing. That is the entire scope of this rule. Extrapolating any other function for this rule is possible, but it would not be the same as the rule itself. Thus, you could attempt to add just the Speed part of Boots of Striding and Springing to a Ring of Jumping and end up with a Ring of Striding and Springing, which wouldn't be altogether unusual. The cost for adding the ability, as per the rule, would be the cost of Boots of Striding and Springing minus the cost of Ring of Jumping or 3000 gp. Adding any additional ability is what costs 50% more. There is absolutely nothing in this rule that says it works the way you think it does. You may believe that it works your way and you probably cannot understand the limitations I'm talking about, but that doesn't mean that what you can understand is correct. Thus, you are indeed: This is restating the rule on page 288 of the DMG without loss of generality. In fact, you are adding a heck of a lot more generality than that which is inherent in the rule. This is my last post in reply to your argument, even if you try to reiterate the same material multiple more times in this thread. Unless you can present new material, I see no point in repeating my counter arguments verbatim any further.
Keenath 09-07-05, 11:13 AM	Why deny the obvious? A magic item in the book happens to precisely follow the "last resort" pricing table. Do you really think it's absolute coincidence? The Boots of S&S could've been marked at an even 6000, or an even 5000, or any value in between. Yet, they JUST HAPPEN to wind up with the exact value you arrive at by using the pricing tables. Accident? Of course not! It means the authors followed the table, and decided that the price provided was fine. I happen to disagree, because I think that all skills are not equal. Now, it may be coincidence that the price of an always-on first level spell is the same as the price of a +10 speed boost, and I won't argue that. But it's clear that the skill bonus and multi-effect rules were used normally, resulting in a cost of 2000 for the speed. What purpose is served by saying otherwise?
curan69 09-07-05, 12:10 PM	Hey Rox Could you be my DM. I love your idea that the rule about 50% only applies to EXISTING magic items. So if i craft a brand new ring with multiple magical properties i dont have to add anything other than the straight cost because i'm not ADDING to an existing item......cool!!!
Roxlimn 09-07-05, 12:37 PM	Keenath: Why deny the obvious? Why indeed? Perhaps because it's not quite so obvious. You see, the pricing guidelines in the tables are only a last resort use and even then, they should be used very warily. You should probably readjust any price you derive from the charts based on how useful you think the item is, but also based on how useful existing items are. A Boots of Striding costing only 2000 gp is incorrectly priced if you believe that such an item makes the Boots of S&S obsolete or overpriced. Based on the perceived relative value of the +10 move enhancement, the price for Boots of Striding should be weighed relative to the Boots of S&S because that is the gold standard. If you priced an item supposedly based on the price of Boots of S&S and they make the Boots of S&S overpriced, then you priced your new item or ability incorrectly. For example, theoretically speaking, a Vest of Mage Armor, always on should cost about 2000 gp. Based on this price which is based on an existing table guideline (which we did not have to derive), the Bracers of Armor as well as Mithral Shirts are overpriced. Of course, this is not true at all. Such an item is the one that is incorrectly priced. If you think that the Jump power in the Boots of S&S are not worth 2500 gp, then you should price them accordingly, and you should price up the speed bonus to make up the difference in the gold standard. This will very likely yield a result which is higher than 2000 gp, and that would most likely be the correct price for your game, especially in that they won't or shouldn't make the Boots an obsolete item. Now, it may be coincidence that the price of an always-on first level spell is the same as the price of a +10 speed boost, and I won't argue that. But it's clear that the skill bonus and multi-effect rules were used normally, resulting in a cost of 2000 for the speed. What purpose is served by saying otherwise? Not actually. You see, the Boot's Speed effect can't be added to a preexisting Ring of Jumping effect unless we somehow presume the existence of a 2000 gp Boots of Striding, which would be a circular argument. If you are going to use a Table estimate, then you should use only Table estimation rules to make your ballpark figure. Accessing a rule meant to adjudicate combining the powers of existing magic items into a Table estimate is mixing rules on a purely arbitrary and probably incorrect basis. Combining abilities based on the Table essentially would use the "no body slot affinity" rule, doubling the cost of the 2000 gp Striding enchantment. This would mean that it would cost 4000 gp plus the 2500 Jump enchantment, to yield a 6500 gp price, not a 5500 gp price. Yeah, sucks to find out this way, huh? You'd think that people who think they know the rules would take the trouble of rechecking.