Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dafrca 11-26-03, 01:08 PM	Some of us old timers were talking this week and one said that the Boots of Striding and Springing now only add 10 feet to your base speed. Did this change in 3.5? dafrca
d_nychus 11-26-03, 01:25 PM	Yep, and a +5 to Jump.
The_Ditto 11-26-03, 01:29 PM	Funny thing is, if you take the basic Magic Item crafting rules, and use the Craft Wondrous Item + "Expeditious Retreat" Spell .. you can make yourselves some neat little boots that work a lot better than wasting time with the Longstrider spell .. (which is much MUCH rare, due to the class type and level requirements ... ) Don't waste time with Boots of Striding and Springing .. just craft your own, and use Expeditious Retreat as the base ... :rolleyes: (you know .. our group has sent 3 e-mails to Customer Service on this little ... uh .. "indescrepency" .. and they haven't responded yet ... hehe ... Can't wait to hear what they saw ... ) :angel:
dantedarkstar 11-26-03, 02:05 PM	Or maybe you can't make "Expeditious Retreat" boots for balance reasons ?
Sacrusha 11-26-03, 02:10 PM	Pricing guidelines.
dafrca 11-26-03, 02:16 PM	So they made them cost 5500 gp and reduced their effect to adding only +10 feet to the base speed. Doesn't this seem a little over priced now? dafrca
dafrca 11-26-03, 02:23 PM	Originally posted by The_Ditto Funny thing is, if you take the basic Magic Item crafting rules, and use the Craft Wondrous Item + "Expeditious Retreat" Spell .. you can make yourselves some neat little boots that work a lot better than wasting time with the Longstrider spell .. (which is much MUCH rare, due to the class type and level requirements ... ) Don't waste time with Boots of Striding and Springing .. just craft your own, and use Expeditious Retreat as the base ... :rolleyes: Although this may be the case, I was not asking how to get around the rules or the item. We had just always used the boots as double the move speed. So when we got some we did not even think to look to see if 3.5 changed anything. A few of us felt caught off guard. I figured I would ask on this board to see if it was another of the 3.5 changes. dafrca
primemover003 11-26-03, 03:36 PM	Grrrr!!! Why pay 55oo gold for Botts of s&S to just give you +10 movement when you could as easily take a level of Bbn and get d12 HP, +1 BAB, and Rage for free and the +10 move:)
The Hanged Man 11-26-03, 03:40 PM	I guess no one answered your question - yes, it did change in 3.5, b/c the 3.0 version was considered a bargain. I'm not sure how they did the pricing for 3.5 - I think they roughed it out. +5 to jump=2500gold, so +10 continuous enhancement to speed must be worth 3000. Pricing it at bonus squared, that gives a price of bonus squared x 30 for speed enhancements. Or a price of 30 cubed - 9000 gold, for boots of continuous Expeditious Retreat. But the pricing rules are just guidelines, and don't really make sense for speed enhancements. Just my 2 cps.
d_nychus 11-26-03, 03:52 PM	Speed is huge in D&D. The faster your character moves, the better you can act in combat. Now, I'm not certain that it's worth being a 5,500 gps item, but it DOES give your character the equivalent of a class ability. I do like that it does not stack with barbarian and monk speed increases. I once had a player who made a monk who could break the sound barrier running in 3.0. Seriously. Now that was broken. By the way, the spell used for the creation is Longstrider, and it actually is priced MUCH less than what it should be, according to the guidelines. It actualy should be 6000 + .75 (2500) =7875 gps. Just showing that the guidelines are...well...merely guidelines. I would not have a problem with an item that gave Expeditios Retreat a limited number of rounds per day. A continous one should be WAY up there in price, however.
RaceBannon42 11-26-03, 04:05 PM	Originally posted by primemover003 Grrrr!!! Why pay 55oo gold for Botts of s&S to just give you +10 movement when you could as easily take a level of Bbn and get d12 HP, +1 BAB, and Rage for free and the +10 move:) Perhaps you are a caster type and do not want to lose caster levels, or you are of a Lawful alignment, or you don't want multiclass xp penalties, or you wear heavy armour. The are plenty of reasons why :P
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-26-03, 04:16 PM	Its one of those things that never got answered in the original conversion: What do you do when you convert a character that took this, or and elvenkind item, or boots of haste in 3e? Basically, they get a thumbtack in their eye either way: Either, they pay an additional 4500 gp for the real item (in the case of the elvenkind items) Or they take the crappy lower effect and STILL have to pay more.
Vorpal Warhammer 11-26-03, 04:25 PM	3.0 boots were simply too good. 3.5 boots are great to get your dwarves and smallfolk up to speed with the rest of the party. 10 feet is a lot when your natural speed is only 20! Also: Pricing GUIDELINES
d_nychus 11-26-03, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Its one of those things that never got answered in the original conversion: What do you do when you convert a character that took this, or and elvenkind item, or boots of haste in 3e? Basically, they get a thumbtack in their eye either way: Either, they pay an additional 4500 gp for the real item (in the case of the elvenkind items) Or they take the crappy lower effect and STILL have to pay more. You take the crappy, more balanced, effect.
Vorpal Warhammer 11-26-03, 05:00 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus You take the crappy, more balanced, effect. But what if your wizard memorized Haste right before he got converted? What then, smart guy? ;)
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-26-03, 05:06 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer But what if your wizard memorized Haste right before he got converted? What then, smart guy? ;) I think the speed boosts from those effects don't stack, so he's just wasting his boots. PS those boots are cheap in 3.5. I can't imagine not getting them if I spend a lot of time on the ground. (Better than boots of speed anyday of the week, IMO.)
d_nychus 11-26-03, 05:10 PM	Umm, you get the crappy, less game-breaking, and more traditional 3.5 Haste when you cast it? Or maybe you get the Summon Celestial Orca Whale effect 20' above your head, which was allowed in 3.0, too.... :D
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-26-03, 05:26 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer But what if your wizard memorized Haste right before he got converted? What then, smart guy? ;) The gods of unnescessary balance apear and beat him with the hammer of balance while calling you a munchkin. Then they go after his player and everyone he's ever associated with. Soon the world is a bleak, blasted, black and white Escher painting where balance reigns supreme and all joy and sorrw and emotions as a whole have been cast into the Abyss.
d_nychus 11-26-03, 05:28 PM	A hell for balanced games. Sweet. Point me the way.
Dalaeck 11-26-03, 05:39 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus Speed is huge in D&D. The faster your character moves, the better you can act in combat. Now, I'm not certain that it's worth being a 5,500 gps item, but it DOES give your character the equivalent of a class ability. Speed is minor in D&D unless you're running from something, which does happen, rarely. Even a first level character can afford a horse for overland movement. Especially for warriors. In combat you want them to move to you so you can full attack them - not the other way around. I do like that it does not stack with barbarian and monk speed increases. I once had a player who made a monk who could break the sound barrier running in 3.0. Seriously. Now that was broken. Please explain how? I'm very curious. Is it a spring attack monk? Have you, you know, ever considered readying an attack action?
The Hanged Man 11-26-03, 05:42 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland The gods of unnescessary balance apear and beat him with the hammer of balance while calling you a munchkin. Then they go after his player and everyone he's ever associated with. Soon the world is a bleak, blasted, black and white Escher painting where balance reigns supreme and all joy and sorrw and emotions as a whole have been cast into the Abyss. Except for the non-spellcasters, who finally slip out from the nooks and crannies in which they hid while the casting classes hasted their way from battle to battle destroying those foolish enough to choose a path that didn't eventually grant a haste effect. Cheering for joy, they revelled in the opportunity to finally get a chance to at least hit something, instead of watching idly as the BBEG's entire army disappeared after a round of quickened haste, chain lightning, empowered fireball. Or, for those wizard BBEG's quickened haste, disintegrate, disintegrate. They so rarely made both saves.
d_nychus 11-26-03, 05:50 PM	Originally posted by Dalaeck Speed is minor in D&D unless you're running from something, which does happen, rarely. Even a first level character can afford a horse for overland movement. Especially for warriors. In combat you want them to move to you so you can full attack them - not the other way around. Once again, your lack of knowledge of the game shines through. If you haven't figured out speed kills in D&D, you are obviously playing wrong. Originally posted by Dalaeck Please explain how? I'm very curious. Is it a spring attack monk? Have you, you know, ever considered readying an attack action? Combined with Mantis Leap, actually, it was over 1000 damage in a single round. Hit and run. Duh.
The Hanged Man 11-26-03, 05:52 PM	Originally posted by Dalaeck Please explain how? I'm very curious. Is it a spring attack monk? Have you, you know, ever considered readying an attack action? Just guessing here, but: Monk speed (90) Boots of striding and springing (+20) Expeditious retreat (doubling speed) Haste (extra move) for a base speed of 110, doubled to 220, running for 880, add another 220 for the extra move, for 1100ft/round, or about 180 feet/second. That's purty fast. Thank you, 3.5, for fixing this. Although I thought monk and barbarians spped didn't stack - barbarian speed only increases base speed for the race.
Dalaeck 11-26-03, 05:55 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus Once again, your lack of knowledge of the game shines through. If you haven't figured out speed kills in D&D, you are obviously playing wrong. I see... So rather than explaining how it kills you prefer to berate me with your vacous statements and condecension. You again fall flat on your face D. It should be quite flat by now - I'm surprised you can still type. Combined with Mantis Leap, actually, it was over 1000 damage in a single round. Hit and run. Duh. I see.... non-core rules break a core item. Indeed that was broken in 3rd Edition... How sad. I though I explained hit-and-run doesn't work? You ready an action and you're getting hit just as often. Try again.
WizO_Catoblepas 11-26-03, 05:58 PM	Ok, let's knock off the personal comments and keep all posts to the topic at hand. Otherwise, I'll have to send out some very unpleasant e-mails. Just a friendly reminder.
dafrca 11-26-03, 05:59 PM	Thank you to those who answered my question. Have a happy Thanks Giving (for those in the USA)! dafrca
dafrca 11-26-03, 06:34 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus I do like that it does not stack with barbarian and monk speed increases. D, I can see that the boots do not stack with the monk as both are called "enhancement bonus" but I must have missed where the Barbarian speed increase is called an "enhancement bonus". Can you please help me find that? dafrca
primemover003 11-26-03, 06:50 PM	Originally posted by RaceBannon42 Perhaps you are a caster type and do not want to lose caster levels, or you are of a Lawful alignment, or you don't want multiclass xp penalties, or you wear heavy armour. The are plenty of reasons why :P Sorry forgot to add [/sarcasm]
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-26-03, 06:51 PM	Originally posted by dafrca D, I can see that the boots do not stack with the monk as both are called "enhancement bonus" but I must have missed where the Barbarian speed increase is called an "enhancement bonus". Can you please help me find that? dafrca I doubt they actually don't stack - however, alignment issues alone should prevent this. IMO becoming a first-level monk takes years ... same with barbarian ... and wizard, and ... you see where this is going. (I like to start my campaigns at 3rd-level so players can multiclass without too much trouble.)
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-26-03, 06:53 PM	I think he means stacking with the boots.
dafrca 11-26-03, 07:01 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland I think he means stacking with the boots. Yes, the poster said the boots do not stack with either tof the two classes speed increases. I could see why he said the boots and monk do not stack as they are both the same "type" of bonus. I just do not see where the barbarian says the type of bonus. Seemed clear enough to me, but hay, I knew what I ment. :D dafrca
kreynolds 11-26-03, 07:02 PM	For those that are interested, here are the possible breakdowns for the price of BoSaS. Remember that the boots have two different functions, so one or both of them will cost more than normal. If you follow the table, which the Sage says that in most cases you should, you double the cost of the highest power. If you follow the item pricing sidebar, you leave the first price alone and apply a 50% increase in the cost of the secondary power. If you follow both, you apply both. The Sage has also said that both the sidebar and the table are correct in regards to multiple powers. It's just that you generally follow the table and not both. For the two examples below, I'll just follow the table. Total Cost: 5,500 Right off the bat, we know that a +5 Jump bonus is 2,500; That leaves 3,000 gp to work with for the speed bonus. If the jump bonus was the higher power, then according to the pricing table, which says to double the higher power, that bonus alone would become 5,000 gp. Quite likely, the jump bonus cannot be the higher power, as that would mean that the speed bonus, with its price being left alone because it's a secondary power, would only be 500 gp. So, assuming that the speed bonus is the higher power, that would mean it's price has been doubled. If it is indeed the higher power, then the cost of the jump bonus would be left alone, so that leaves its price at the standard 2,500 gp. Taking that into account, which only 3,000 gp left, that would mean that the speed bonus is actually only 1,500 gp before being doubled for being the higher power. However, the speed bonus can't be the higher power because its original cost at 1,500 is less than the jump bonus with a cost of 2,500. So, reverse engineering the price, that leaves the cost of the functions of the BoSaS at... 5,000 gp (+5 jump bonus) + 500 gp (speed bonus) = 5,500 gp. Conclusion? As stated above, they're just guidelines. :D
kreynolds 11-26-03, 07:03 PM	Originally posted by dafrca Can you please help me find that? Yeah, I just looked and it doesn't say that it's an enhancement bonus. I'd be interested to know if that's the intent though.
fractal 11-26-03, 07:27 PM	Originally posted by kreynolds For those that are interested, here are the possible breakdowns for the price of BoSaS. Remember that the boots have two different functions, so one or both of them will cost more than normal. If you follow the table, which the Sage says that in most cases you should, you double the cost of the highest power. If you follow the item pricing sidebar, you leave the first price alone and apply a 50% increase in the cost of the secondary power. If you follow both, you apply both. In my opinion, the table approach is horrible. It has two glaring flaws: 1. It's discontinuous. If you have one ability, and add even the smallest secondary ability (+1 to reflex saves vs enchantments under a full moon on Sundays), the price of the item instantly doubles. This really doesn't make any sense, especially since you'd only pay twice the base cost for that secondary ability, if you got it on its own slotless item. 2. It requires you to know how many abilities the item already has. For example, if you have a +5 sword, is that one ability, or two (or more)? If it's one ability, then POW! adding an extra ability doubles the price. On the other hand, if +attack/+dam was two abilities, then adding the extra ability only adds the price of the extra ability. Both of these features make item pricing very unstable, especially the first one. This is a major problem. The sidebar formula, on the other hand (1*a+1.5*b+1.5*c, etc) doesn't have the first issue at all, and the second one is much smaller. I would strongly advocate using the sidebar formula, whenever you want at least moderately consistent item pricing.
kreynolds 11-26-03, 07:41 PM	Originally posted by fractal In my opinion, the table approach is horrible. Well, it's kinda hard for me to say. I do indeed use the table. However, I also use the Artificer's Handbook. Then I just find a happy medium. Originally posted by fractal 1. It's discontinuous. If you have one ability, and add even the smallest secondary ability (+1 to reflex saves vs enchantments under a full moon on Sundays), the price of the item instantly doubles. True. From a rules perspective, I don't really have too terrible of a problem with it. From an actual game perspective, however, I do. Originally posted by fractal 2. It requires you to know how many abilities the item already has. For example, if you have a +5 sword, is that one ability, or two (or more)? If it's one ability, then POW! adding an extra ability doubles the price. On the other hand, if +attack/+dam was two abilities, then adding the extra ability only adds the price of the extra ability. Well, if you take a look at the armor abilities, such as Silent Moves, or any of the other abilities that grant a bonus to a skill, you'll find something interesting. Take Silent Moves, for example. It grants a +5 bonus to Move Silently. A +5 skill bonus is 2,500 gp. This we know. No problem. Now, obviously, this is a secondary power. So, does the price of the armor get doubled? No. Strangely, the price of the skill bonus is increased by 50%. 2,500 x 1.5 = 3,750. Now, the real question you have to ask yourself is this; Is the 50% price increase as per secondary nonsimilar powers as indicated in the item pricing sidebar on page 282 of the rDMG, or is it due to Silent Moves not having an affinity to the armor slot, as indicated in the body slot affinities sidebar on page 288 of the rDMG? If it's the former, then the table is simply ignored. If it's the latter, then both the table _and_ the sidebar are simply ignored. Quite a pickle, eh? :) Originally posted by fractal I would strongly advocate using the sidebar formula, whenever you want at least moderately consistent item pricing. Well, personally, I recommend that you use the sidebar, then the table, then both the sidebar _and_ the table, then Artificer's Handbook. Then take all those prices and put them beside one another for comparison. It's a whole lot easier, for me, anyway.
dafrca 11-26-03, 08:16 PM	Originally posted by dafrca Can you please help me find that? Originally posted by kreynolds Yeah, I just looked and it doesn't say that it's an enhancement bonus. I'd be interested to know if that's the intent though. OK, I thought maybe I was just missing it. Thanks. dafrca
The_Ditto 11-27-03, 09:15 AM	Originally posted by kreynolds For those that are interested, here are the possible breakdowns for the price of BoSaS. Remember that the boots have two different functions, so one or both of them will cost more than normal. Conclusion? As stated above, they're just guidelines. :D Just to confirm my original post and to respond to this one ... (I think the intention of my first post was missed somewhere in the translation ... :angel: .. hehe) Anyway ... Those boots I mentioned, based on Expeditious? They churn out at roughly 4k ... certainly not a huge difference from BoSaS ... the point is .. the cost wasn't the issue I was addressing .. The point I was making: BoSaS: Based on Longstrider - Strictly a Druid/Ranger spell .. - High level spell .. - How many High level druids do you know? - how many high level druids do you know who take Craft Wondrous Item? - how many high level druids do you know who take Craft Wondrous Item are willing to craft an item for the local population? ... :rolleyes: However .. Expeditious Retreat: - Low level Mage/Sorcerer/Bard(?) spell - Lots of Wizards take Craft Wondrous ... - Easier to craft ... more likely to be made ... That's all I'm saying ... :tiphat:
dantedarkstar 11-27-03, 10:23 AM	You forgot to add following line to 'Expeditious Retreat' list: -Gods of balance inflict 10d6 damage per round of crafting to the person crafting it
The_Ditto 11-27-03, 10:45 AM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar You forgot to add following line to 'Expeditious Retreat' list: -Gods of balance inflict 10d6 damage per round of crafting to the person crafting it ok .. why do you see it as balance issue? I fail to see it ... honestly ... :angel: no sarcasm, no flaming, ... I just honestly don't see how it's broken ... If you think it's underpriced, fine, increase the price to 6k .. or 7k ... as I said ... I don't have an issue on the price ... :angel:
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-27-03, 12:11 PM	Originally posted by The_Ditto ok .. why do you see it as balance issue? I fail to see it ... honestly ... :angel: no sarcasm, no flaming, ... I just honestly don't see how it's broken ... If you think it's underpriced, fine, increase the price to 6k .. or 7k ... as I said ... I don't have an issue on the price ... :angel: Or maybe 50k? WotC tried boosting the price of 3.0 BoSS and found it didn't help. Players simply waited longer before they went for the boots, and why not? They were powerful and cheap.
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-27-03, 12:26 PM	An item granting continuous use of a 1st level arcane spell that lasts 1 min/level: 1*3*2000*2 = 12,000gp. An item granting a +30 enhancement bonus: 30*30*1000 = 900,000gp. Up to your DM, honestly. I'd lean more towards Boots of Expeditious Retreat costing around 90,000gp. Rationale: very difficult to raise base speed; highest base speed increase by other means is +10 (Haste, BoS&S, Barbarian speed, monk speed only increases to +30 at 9th level); 3x bonus is worth more than bonus*3.
kreynolds 11-27-03, 12:27 PM	Originally posted by The_Ditto - Strictly a Druid/Ranger spell .. No, it's also a domain spell, so some clerics might have it. Originally posted by The_Ditto - High level spell .. It's a 1st-level spell. Originally posted by The_Ditto How many High level druids do you know? You mean 1st-level druids? Originally posted by The_Ditto - how many high level druids do you know who take Craft Wondrous Item? - how many high level druids do you know who take Craft Wondrous Item are willing to craft an item for the local population? Well, not that the "high level" bit has been clarified... :D ...the only remaining point is that the druid, ranger, or cleric doesn't even need to take the feat. A wizard could have the feat and a ranger, cleric, or druid could provide the spell. Originally posted by The_Ditto -Expeditious Retreat: - Low level Mage/Sorcerer/Bard(?) spell Just like Longstrider...a low level spell. Originally posted by The_Ditto - Lots of Wizards take Craft Wondrous ... Which is fine, as a druid, ranger, or cleric doesn't even need to take the feat, as mentioned above. Originally posted by The_Ditto Easier to craft... Not at all. Originally posted by The_Ditto ... more likely to be made ... Perhaps, though that's really more campaign dependant than anything else. I can easily imagine elven woodland communities having quite a few of boots based on longstrider. Originally posted by The_Ditto That's all I'm saying ... :tiphat: Which is? ;)
kreynolds 11-27-03, 12:29 PM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade An item granting a +30 enhancement bonus: 30*30*1000 = 900,000gp. There's a big difference between +30 to a save, +30 to hit, +30 to strength, or +30 to damage and +30 to speed. That's not a very fair or valid comparison.
The_Ditto 11-27-03, 12:44 PM	Originally posted by kreynolds It's a 1st-level spell. (Hmm, I thought it was higher level ... oh well ... small issue, really ... BoSaS require 3rd level Caster level to make, plus 5 ranks in Jump. Jump is not a Druid class skill, so they'll have to be level 7 before they can make them ... Well, not that the "high level" bit has been clarified... :D ...the only remaining point is that the druid, ranger, or cleric doesn't even need to take the feat. A wizard could have the feat and a ranger, cleric, or druid could provide the spell. Still raises the point .. Druids wouldn't "normally" associate ... and sure, it's compaign dependent ... but in general, this would be a rarer situation . I mean really .. if you were a wizard, why would you waste time/resources looking up a druid to cast Longstrider, when you got Expeditious retreat easily accessible?
dantedarkstar 11-27-03, 12:59 PM	I think that at if they costed as much as Boots of Haste, people would start to think: Is it better to have constant +30 speed ? or only for 10 rounds, but with many other bonuses (AC, saves, extra attack, etc.) And if we take bonus squared formula, then remember that speed is in completely different units. Treating +1ft speed as +1 to hit is like saying that +1km is the same as +1kg... I know it holds no sense, but that's what I was pointing, so I assume I have succeeded. But I think that +1 square movement (+5ft) may be treated roughly like +1. This makes +30 speed cost 6^2=36*X gp. Of course X is highly debatable value, but putting it as 500 (let's assume +5ft movement is worse than +1 to AC) brings price to 18000gp for Boots of +30ft movement. I would say right value for X is somewhere between 200 and 2000 (yes, It's huge range, but I want to make sure X IS within that). And anything that adds more than +6 squares to speed is epic (like anything that adds more than +6 to ability score).
kreynolds 11-27-03, 01:10 PM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar ...putting it as 500 (let's assume +5ft movement is worse than +1 to AC) brings price to 18000gp for Boots of +30ft movement. Actually, if you take into account my price breakdown above, then 500 gp as part of the formula makes sense. My breakdown shows that there's only 500 gp left over for the speed increase (assuming that pricing table was followed and the skill bonus, being the higher power, was double in cost), and using your idea of 1 square being part of the formula, like this... additional squares of movement x additional squares of movement x 500 gp ...well, 1 x 1 x 500 = 500, and that's in line with the BoSaS. If you take into account 30 feet of movement, i.e. 6 squares, then the formula could be 6 x 6 x 500, and that comes out to 18,000. Interesting, no?
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-27-03, 03:02 PM	Originally posted by kreynolds There's a big difference between +30 to a save, +30 to hit, +30 to strength, or +30 to damage and +30 to speed. That's not a very fair or valid comparison. I agree, which is why I reduced it to 1/10 of that price. I thought about basing the cost off of +5 increments, but none of the +6 modifier prices (armor or weapons) fit the bonus granted, IMO. I think something the item creation rules don't take into account is the effect of a particular item on game-play. An item that casts Jump an unlimited number of times per day costs 1*3*2000 = 6000gp. An item that casts CLW an unlimited number of times per day costs the same amount, 6000gp. One of these items is obviously going to impact game-play more than the other, and most DMs will charge a whole lot more for the unlimited use CLW item than the unlimited use Jump item. Why? I think it's because Jump is a situational benefit that doesn't come up nearly as much as healing does. In the same way, increased speed is useful in any situation and should be priced accordingly. That's why the "rules" for item creation actually aren't "rules", they're guidelines. An item that grants a +30 speed bonus should cost exponentially more than a +10 item * 3, since the +30 item impacts game-play more. My 2cp.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-27-03, 03:13 PM	But the point is, +30 to speed is nowhere near equal to a +30 to a skill. +30 speed is nothing, thanks to abstraction. a speed of 5^10*100 is not better than a speed of 40 once you get into combat.
The_Ditto 11-27-03, 06:45 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland But the point is, +30 to speed is nowhere near equal to a +30 to a skill. +30 speed is nothing, thanks to abstraction. a speed of 5^10*100 is not better than a speed of 40 once you get into combat. Actually, they're not comparing +30 speed to +30 skill ... they're basically dividing by 5 .. so +30 speed = +6 to a skill .. :rolleyes: It could make sense .. I'm still not overly concerned about the cost issue ... just the fact that those boots should be made using Expeditious Retreat as a requirement, as opposed to Longstrider .. :angel: ... Just seems to make more sense, really ...
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-27-03, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by The_Ditto Actually, they're not comparing +30 speed to +30 skill ... they're basically dividing by 5 .. so +30 speed = +6 to a skill .. :rolleyes: Right. Originally posted by The_Ditto I'm still not overly concerned about the cost issue ... just the fact that those boots should be made using Expeditious Retreat as a requirement, as opposed to Longstrider .. :angel: ... I would certainly allow a Wizard with Expeditious Retreat to make these boots. No question.
Krynus Ogrebane 11-28-03, 01:47 AM	Originally posted by kreynolds: For those that are interested, here are the possible breakdowns for the price of BoSaS. Remember that the boots have two different functions, so one or both of them will cost more than normal. If you follow the table, which the Sage says that in most cases you should, you double the cost of the highest power. Really? Where does it say that? I was under the impression that you double the cost of the additional powers (i.e.- the cheaper powers). Tome & Blood goes through this with the examples, and I haven't seen anything in 3.5 that indicates that it is different now. Also, this ensures that an item has a predictable price, regardless of what order abilities are added. For example, a Belt of +2 Strength is found and the owner decides to add a +2 Natural Armor bonus. Just because the STR bonus was on it first does not mean that the cost of +2 Natural Armor gets doubled. Total Cost: 5,500 Right off the bat, we know that a +5 Jump bonus is 2,500; That leaves 3,000 gp to work with for the speed bonus. So far so good, but when you proceed with your example, you lose it. Not only are you operating under false preconceptions (AFAIK), but your math is incorrect because you keep trying to double the added power, instead of increasing its value by 50%. Here's how they came up with BoSaS market value: Longstrider (1st level druid spell) 1 (spell level) x 1 (minimum caster level) x 2000 (continuous item) = 2000 +5 to Jump checks = 5 x 5 x 100 = 2500 Increase the lesser of the two by 50% 2000 x 150% = 3000 2500 + 3000 = 5500 gp market value Notice that BoSaS have listed in their description CL 3rd. CL is not a prerequisite to create an item (3.5 DMG, p. 215).
fractal 11-28-03, 03:18 AM	Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane Really? Where does it say that? I was under the impression that you double the cost of the additional powers (i.e.- the cheaper powers). Tome & Blood goes through this with the examples, and I haven't seen anything in 3.5 that indicates that it is different now. This was the 3.0 system, yes. There are two contentions for how the 3.5 system works. So far so good, but when you proceed with your example, you lose it. Not only are you operating under false preconceptions (AFAIK), but your math is incorrect because you keep trying to double the added power, instead of increasing its value by 50%. That's because they're trying to use the table (double the biggest power), instead of the sidebar (multiply all secondary powers by 1.5). As you note in your example, the Boots of Striding and Springing were sensibly priced using the sidebar, rather than the bizarre method from the table.
Krynus Ogrebane 11-28-03, 04:02 AM	Originally posted by fractal: That's because they're trying to use the table (double the biggest power), instead of the sidebar (multiply all secondary powers by 1.5). I must be missing that part. Where does it say that? I've been looking at the sidebar on p. 282, and the table on p. 285 (3.5 DMG). Does it mention doubling somewhere else?
kreynolds 11-28-03, 09:06 AM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade I agree, which is why I reduced it to 1/10 of that price. Oh, sorry. I didn't realize that's what you had done. My bad. Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade That's why the "rules" for item creation actually aren't "rules", they're guidelines. Hey, preach'n' to the choir, babe. :)
kreynolds 11-28-03, 09:29 AM	Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane Where does it say that? The line "Multiple Different Abilities — Multiply higher item cost by 2 — Helm of brilliance" on Table 7-33 on page 285 of the rDMG. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane I was under the impression that you double the cost of the additional powers (i.e.- the cheaper powers). In 3.0, that's what the sidebar said, yes. Neither the sidebar nor the table agree with that anymore. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane Tome & Blood goes through this with the examples, and I haven't seen anything in 3.5 that indicates that it is different now. That doesn't mean it isn't so. :D Like I said, check out the table I referenced above, and check out the sidebar on page 282. For multiple different abiliities, it clearly states 50% increase, not 100%. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane So far so good, but when you proceed with your example, you lose it. Hardly. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane Not only are you operating under false preconceptions (AFAIK) Then you know wrong. ;) Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane ...but your math is incorrect because you keep trying to double the added power, instead of increasing its value by 50%. No. I'm doubling the _first_ power and leaving the cost of the second power alone, as per the table on page 285 of the rDMG. The _sidebar_ states that you increase the cost of additional powers by 50%. As I stated in that post, I'm using the table, _not_ the sidebar, as the table is recommended for most case, by the Sage. Also, the table works. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane Here's how they came up with BoSaS market value: You need to pay closer attention before you fly off the handle and start accusing people of being wrong or under false pretenses. I never said the sidebar was incorrect. I simply said I wasn't using it, and I clearly stated why.
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-28-03, 02:48 PM	Originally posted by The_Ditto [Still raises the point .. Druids wouldn't "normally" associate ... and sure, it's compaign dependent ... but in general, this would be a rarer situation . I mean really .. if you were a wizard, why would you waste time/resources looking up a druid to cast Longstrider, when you got Expeditious retreat easily accessible? Travel clerics can cast the spell. Travel clerics can make the item at 3rd level. They like to help out travelers, including crafting items they're comissioned to make. Where's the trouble?
WizO_Catoblepas 11-28-03, 03:41 PM	As I said in mypost on te first page, keep the posts to the subject at hand, and refrain from the personal observations/comments abou other members. This is my last warning. The next time I have to do this, I'll be closing this thread and sending out some very unpleasant e-mails. Fair warning.
Krynus Ogrebane 11-29-03, 01:08 AM	Originally posted by kreynolds: The line "Multiple Different Abilities — Multiply higher item cost by 2 — Helm of brilliance" on Table 7-33 on page 285 of the rDMG. Thank you. I had not noticed that. In 3.0, that's what the sidebar said, yes. Neither the sidebar nor the table agree with that anymore. Wrong. The sidebar in both versions say the same thing (neither specifies which is doubled, only that each additional power is doubled). That doesn't mean it isn't so. :D Like I said, check out the table I referenced above, and check out the sidebar on page 282. For multiple different abiliities, it clearly states 50% increase, not 100%. The sidebar says 50% increase, while the table says ×2. Sound familiar? This is just like 3.0, when it started out as 10% increase, and got errata'd to 100%. Going back to the 3.5 table, it uses a Helm of Brilliance as it's example. *multiple calculations* Guess what? The Helm of Brilliance market price calculations do not match any of the above methods... not even close. Ergo, the table is incorrect, as far as that is concerned. If you like, I will post what I have for Helm of Brilliance calculations. Hardly. Excuse me? Your math indicated that a +10-foot bonus to movement was worth 500 gp, and that is obviously incorrect. Then you know wrong. ;) Apparently. We'll see. No. I'm doubling the _first_ power and leaving the cost of the second power alone, as per the table on page 285 of the rDMG. The _sidebar_ states that you increase the cost of additional powers by 50%. As I stated in that post, [b]I'm using the table, _not_ the sidebar, as the table is recommended for most case, by the Sage. OK, you did say that, no argument there, but my point was that BoSaS were not calculated according to the table -- they were calculated according to the sidebar. ... and my calculations add up. :smirk: Also, the table works. In the case of BoSaS, no it doesn't, by your own math. You need to pay closer attention before you fly off the handle and start accusing people of being wrong or under false pretenses. I never said the sidebar was incorrect. I simply said I wasn't using it, and I clearly stated why. :confused: *reads my previous post* . . *re-reads post* . . *reads post again* . . :confused: "Fly off the handle"? Interesting. I don't see any indication that I flew off the handle. I was trying to help, by showing what WOTC actually did. "Reverse engineering" is only effective if you come up with a correct answer. You did not. So where is the problem?
FreeTheSlaves 11-29-03, 04:20 AM	I am firmly in the thought that speed is an important combat statistic, both from my experience as a player and dm. When a character wears heavy armour they suffer several disadvantages but usually the biggest gripe is the loss of 10 speed. Every combat, when dismounted (i.e. 50% of the time) this limitation is highlighted by even the speed 30 characters. Every round you have to factor in your mobility while seeking to set up the full round attacks. The 3.5 BoS&S are between the value of a +1 and +2 weapon and that's about right. Depending on character build, I will happily prioritize the boots after a +1 enhanced weapon. However if picking through a trove, the +2 weapon would take priority. Regards, FTS
RLWilde 11-29-03, 04:56 AM	Originally posted by The_Ditto Still raises the point .. Druids wouldn't "normally" associate These are the same druids who are Crafting Bags of Tricks and Amulets of Natural Armor, probably. ;)
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-29-03, 12:39 PM	Originally posted by RLWilde These are the same druids who are Crafting Bags of Tricks and Amulets of Natural Armor, probably. ;) Plant clerics can make the latter :)
kreynolds 12-01-03, 08:40 AM	Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane Wrong. The sidebar in both versions say the same thing (neither specifies which is doubled, only that each additional power is doubled). They aren't the same though. From the 3.0 DMG, page 243, sidebar... "For items that do take up a limited space (such as a ring or a necklace), each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 10% increase in price." ...and as you said, the 10% was errated to 100%. So, according to the sidebar, the cost of additional powers are doubled. Now, from the rDMG, page 282, sidebar... "For items that do take up a space on a character's body (such as a ring or a necklace), each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. They do _not_ say the same thing. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane The sidebar says 50% increase, while the table says ×2. My point exactly. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane Sound familiar? No. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane This is just like 3.0, when it started out as 10% increase, and got errata'd to 100%. No. It has been confirmed by the Sage that neither the table nor the sidebar are in error. Until they are errated, neither are in error. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane The Helm of Brilliance market price calculations do not match any of the above methods... not even close. I wouldn't know. I've never bothered to price it out. In any case, not all the items in the DMG precisely follow the sidebar or the table, or any other pricing recommendations, for that matter. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane Your math indicated that a +10-foot bonus to movement was worth 500 gp, and that is obviously incorrect. It's not incorrect at all. Following the pricing recommendations of the table, that's the result I came to. The math works. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane ...my point was that BoSaS were not calculated according to the table... I just priced it that way, and the math works. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane ... and my calculations add up. :smirk: So did mine. Can you point out where they falter? Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane In the case of BoSaS, no it doesn't, by your own math. You have yet to disprove it. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane "Fly off the handle"? Interesting. I don't see any indication that I flew off the handle. I did. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane I was trying to help, by showing what WOTC actually did. And in the process, you flat-out accuse me of being wrong, even though my math is sound. You flat-out accuse me of being under false assumptions in regards to the sidebars, which I proved not to be the case. I trying to see your point of view here, but I'm not getting it. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane "Reverse engineering" is only effective if you come up with a correct answer. Which I did. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane You did not. The numbers say otherwise. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane So where is the problem? You tell me. +5 to Jump: 5x5x100=2,500x2=5,000 Speed increase: 500 Total: 5,500 gp. That's reverse engineering the price as per the table. The numbers add up and the price is identical to the final price listed in the DMG. Now you only have to prove it wrong.
The_Ditto 12-01-03, 09:29 AM	Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Travel clerics can cast the spell. Travel clerics can make the item at 3rd level. They like to help out travelers, including crafting items they're comissioned to make. Where's the trouble? What's more common ... A cleric with the Travel domain AND craft wondrous Item .. Or a Wizard with Expeditious Retreat and Craft wondrous Item .. :rolleyes:
d_nychus 12-01-03, 12:15 PM	What's more disruptive to the game? An item that grants +10' to speed? Or an item that grants +30'? I think the speed bonus (in spaces) squared times 500 gp is somewhat workable, so I personally might use that. I do wish they would clarify exactly HOW you are supposed to price items like this.
dantedarkstar 12-01-03, 12:37 PM	For bonus squared *500gp, I would strongly advise on counting 5ft as "1", and limit nonepic stuff to +6 (+30ft). So +10ft = 2,000gp +30ft = 18,000gp +35ft = epic, 245,000gp Otherwise you'll get nice thingies like Boots of Supersonic Speed.
kreynolds 12-01-03, 01:08 PM	That's a good idea, dante. :cool:
dafrca 12-01-03, 01:59 PM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar For bonus squared *500gp, I would strongly advise on counting 5ft as "1", and limit nonepic stuff to +6 (+30ft). So +10ft = 2,000gp +30ft = 18,000gp +35ft = epic, 245,000gp Otherwise you'll get nice thingies like Boots of Supersonic Speed. This is a good suggestion. It allows for higher speeds but at much higher costs. I like it. dafrca
Heron_Marked_Blade 12-01-03, 02:11 PM	I would argue for [bonus squared * 1000] as the pricing mechanic, but I'm of the opinion that boots of striding and springing (even the 3.5 nerfed ones) are underpriced.
Kyaran 12-01-03, 08:13 PM	Uhhh... confuse me if I'm not already, but why all the discussion about what value of a movement enhancement is? There is no movement enhancement; it's all spell effects. Also, keeping this effect as a result of spells really limits what you can do to abuse it. It's either 10' or 30', no other options or capping necessary. I have chosen to single out and ignore the line about Multiple Different Abilities in the pricing table of the DMG, since I have found that ANYTHING works well when you use the sidebar method for that. Except for the Helm of Brilliance, obviously. Which, BTW, has no multiple different abilities, so shouldn't be an example on that line anyway. Every ability it has is a spell effect. As far as why it doesn't conform exactly to the rules... It's got a tweaked amount of fire resistance, it casts daylight with light as the creation spell, and it has the disadvantadge of trying to blow up if you take fire damage. Boots of Springing and Striding +5 skill bonus = 2500 (5*5*100) 10' speed increase = 2000 (1*1*2000) Lower cost power *150% = 2000 -> 3000 Total cost: 5,500 Boots of Expeditious Retreat 30' speed increase = 2000 (1*1*2000) Continuous effect with duration of 1min/level modifier = cost*2 Total Cost: 4,000 Or, the favorite in a game I'm in... Boots of Striding 10' speed increase = 2000 (1*1*2000) Total Cost: 2,000
d_nychus 12-01-03, 10:04 PM	Ugh, WAY underpriced.
Heron_Marked_Blade 12-01-03, 10:14 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus Ugh, WAY underpriced. Seconded. By my calculations, +10 speed should cost 4,000gp, and I'd still be hesitant about that. Heh, I'd just make it hell for the player to get his hands on a pair (can we say side quests? Think of the bonus experience!) to even it out.
Loren Pechtel 12-01-03, 11:25 PM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar For bonus squared *500gp, I would strongly advise on counting 5ft as "1", and limit nonepic stuff to +6 (+30ft). So +10ft = 2,000gp +30ft = 18,000gp +35ft = epic, 245,000gp Otherwise you'll get nice thingies like Boots of Supersonic Speed. At 80F the speed of sound is 1140 ft/sec. That translates to 1368 squares/round. Speed 30 = 6 squares, so we need a +1362 to get supersonic. Not counting epic, this comes out to 927,522,000 gp. I don't think you need to worry about boots of supersonic speed even if you don't cap it at +6. You'll hit the 200k threshold at +20 anyway.
Krynus Ogrebane 12-02-03, 02:20 AM	Originally posted by kreynolds: They aren't the same though. From the 3.0 DMG, page 243, sidebar... "For items that do take up a limited space (such as a ring or a necklace), each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 10% increase in price." ...and as you said, the 10% was errated to 100%. So, according to the sidebar, the cost of additional powers are doubled. Now, from the rDMG, page 282, sidebar... "For items that do take up a space on a character's body (such as a ring or a necklace), each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. They do _not_ say the same thing. *yawn* Except for the price adjustment amount, they do say the same thing. Instead of saying "(neither specifies which is doubled, only that each additional power is doubled)", I should have said "(neither specifies which is increased, only that each additional power is increased)". So I mispoke about the amount (which wasn't my point to begin with), but the rest *is* the same, between editions. Gee, can you ever forgive me? No. It has been confirmed by the Sage that neither the table nor the sidebar are in error. Until they are errated, neither are in error. So +50% = ×2 ? Riiight. Did it ever occur to you that The Sage might be wrong? Naaahh, couldn't be. I wouldn't know. I've never bothered to price it out. In any case, not all the items in the DMG precisely follow the sidebar or the table, or any other pricing recommendations, for that matter. Which is the point. The Helm of Brilliance has no business being used as an example, because it doesn't add up by any calculations, let alone the specific pricing of a power that was doubled in price. ... And you lack the initiative to actually do all your homework. It's not incorrect at all. Following the pricing recommendations of the table, that's the result I came to. The math works. You're being obtuse and illogical. Furthermore, you didn't use *all* the applicable pricing recommendations on the table. See below. I just priced it that way, and the math works. Your math works as an experiment in numbers only. It doesn't come up with a correct answer using ALL the pricing guidelines. Is this so hard to fathom, or are you one of those who might not be right, but are never wrong? Longstrider is a 1st-level spell, and it is the basis for BoSaS magical effect. Continuous effects are priced at CL×SL×2000. Longstrider 1×1×2000 = 2000 (the right answer) 2000 /= 500 (your answer) The logical deductions about the boot pricing is that either a) the DMG lists them at the wrong price, or b) another calculation method was used. So did mine. Can you point out where they falter? See above. You cannot price out half of the boots' abilities, ignore the pricing guidelines for the other half, and expect an answer with credibility. And in the process, you flat-out accuse me of being wrong, even though my math is sound. You flat-out accuse me of being under false assumptions in regards to the sidebars, which I proved not to be the case. I trying to see your point of view here, but I'm not getting it. I'm not accusing. Your math IS wrong, because it fails to account for the pricing guidelines of both powers. Obviously 5500 - 5000 = 500, but 500 /= permanent Longstrider effect. You tell me. I did, above. +5 to Jump: 5x5x100=2,500x2=5,000 Speed increase: 500 Total: 5,500 gp. That's reverse engineering the price as per the table. The numbers add up and the price is identical to the final price listed in the DMG. Now you only have to prove it wrong. It is not "as per the table", because the correct answer for permanent Longstrider is 2000. ~~~ Now, if I can actually attempt to contribute something useful (instead of proving other people wrong), there was another thread about creating items with persistent effects. The question was about spell durations and their effects on the pricing. According to the p. 285 of the 3.5 DMG, a continuous effect is based on a spell with a duration expressed in... - rounds, multiply by x4 - 1 minute/level, multiply by x2 - 10 minutes/level, multiply by x1.5 - 24-hour duration or greater, divide in half. By the sidebar guidelines (which has been more accurate than the ×2 line on the table)... Boots of Expeditious Retreat should cost 4,000 gp. Boots of Longstrider should cost 2,000 gp. Boots of Striding and Springing (Longstrider & +5 to Jump checks) should cost 5,500 gp (and they do, in the DMG). Boots of Running and Jumping (Exp. Retreat & +5 to Jump checks) should cost 7,750 gp. As a DM, the Exp. Retreat versions seem inexpensive to me. If you went the route of Persistent Expeditious Retreat (the feat Persistent Spell, from FRCS, has a +4 slot cost), Boots of Exp. Retreat would cost 45,000 gp. This seems excessive. So, I'd probably use the guidelines and some common sense to come up with something in between, for those who might consider using Exp. Retreat instead of Longstrider. For example, comparing the two spells, you have +10 feet and 1 hour/lvl duration v. +30 feet and 1 min/lvl duration. Perhaps quadrupling the price of a Longstrider effect isn't out of line, for Exp. Retreat... that is, a tripled-double (triple because the benefit is three times that of Longstrider, and double because of the duration guidelines). That would make Boots of Exp. Retreat cost 8,000 gp (+30 feet movement only). Sounds pretty good. I just wonder if it's too good. Consider that Boots of Fly should run about 60,000, but that's movement in all three dimensions.
kreynolds 12-02-03, 08:24 AM	Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane So +50% = ×2 ? I didn't say that +50% is the same as x2. The Sage didn't say that +50% is the same as x2. What the Sage _did_ say, however, is that both the table and sidebar are correct. The table says to double the cost of the higher power. The sidebar says to increase the cost of additional powers by 50%. That is _not_ the same thing at all. If you wish to continue ignoring the obvious, that they are indeed different, then by all means, be my guest. Just give me fair warning so that I don't waste my time (as I won't by reading the rest of your post). Thanks.