Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 11:08 AM	it uses the spell longstrider to make them but this is not really worth using. Expeditious retreat is a spell at the same level and provides a 30ft enhancement. boots made with this would be better and cost just the same or cheaper if you dont include the skill enhancement. with skill enhancement 5500 (same as boots) without enhancement 2000 to make the boots cost is 2750gp and 220xp while only previding +10 to speed and +5 to jump, boots made with expeditious retreat and the skill enhancement provide +30 speed and +5 jump while without the jump enhancement you would be able to make them for 1000gp and 80xp while still providing +30 speed enhancement.
tarkin 06-06-07, 11:52 AM	No. You can NOT just say "I will make this magic item, and of COURSE it must do more but be cheaper because I am following the magic item rules." Those are not magic item rules, they are guidelines. And the method you used to price the hypothetical magic item is the acknowledged WORST method, you are only allowed to use it if no other method exists. The primary method to price magic items is to compare it to existing magic items. That rule OVER-RULES all other pricing methods, in particular the moronic True Strike/Cure Light Wounds/Mage Armor/Charm Person abuse potential method you are trying to use. There is no WoTC legal way to get more than the Boots of Striding and Springing without paying more than for the Boots. You also should not be picking and choosing saying "I want X, but don't want Y." The boots are the Core method to get an improved speed. That is what you are supposed to use.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 12:10 PM	i used the boots of striding and springing which conform to that chart exactly so i went and looked at other first level spells that provide speed and expeditious retreat is like the longstrider only provides more speed but for less time. the boots of striding and springing would only cost 2000 if you took away the jump bonus.
Everdreaming 06-06-07, 12:27 PM	I believe the point that was made was not that you did not follow the rules, but that the rules are guidelines, and must be used with a large dose of common sense. Examples of rule exploitation without common sense would be a sword of true striking, costs 2500(or roughly around there) to buy, and attacks with a +20 to hit every attack. Perfectly legal, but no one would allow it because it does not use common sense. You cannot , using common sense, get a greater bonus, for less money, even if it goes by the rules. Go with what exists first, and price it by that.
Vegepygmy 06-06-07, 12:29 PM	i used the boots of striding and springing which conform to that chart exactly...You are either ignoring or have not understood Tarkin's point. Per the DMG, boots that give a +10 enhancement bonus to your speed and a +5 competence bonus to Jump checks cost 5,500 gp. Making boots that give a +30 enhancement bonus to your speed for the same or less amount violates the first rule of magic item pricing: compare the proposed item to existing items in the DMG before you consult Table 7-33. If your DM lets you make "boots of expeditious retreat" for 2,000 gp, he's a fool.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 12:59 PM	then how about boots of boots of expeditious retreat without the +5 jump bonus for 5500gp.
Vegepygmy 06-06-07, 01:02 PM	then how about boots of boots of expeditious retreat without the +5 jump bonus for 5500gp.You're really not understanding this, are you? A +30 enhancement bonus to speed is worth much more than 5,500 gp.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:04 PM	okay did some math your right its worth 6000gp because the boots of striding and springing without the +5 to jump are worth 2000gp for +10 then +30 would be 6000 which is only 500gp more.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:11 PM	okay did some math your right its worth 6000gp because the boots of striding and springing without the +5 to jump are worth 2000gp for +10 then +30 would be 6000 which is only 500gp more. You do realize that +30 speed will most likely provide a +8 to +12 jump bonus, right? +30 speed should be ~9 times more expensive than +10 speed. So if +10 speed is 2000gp, +30 should be 18,000gp
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:14 PM	jump bonus from the speed is not what they did with the +10. the +5 was a seperate thing that was added.
ZiggZagg 06-06-07, 01:14 PM	You really don't pay attention, do you? So, for a mere 500gp more, you can triple the benefit from an item? You need to compare and contrast. But since 4 other people have told you this, and you still don't get it, I don't know why I am trying
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:19 PM	jump bonus from the speed is not what they did with the +10. the +5 was a seperate thing that was added. I know, you obviously missed the point. Let me try and spell it out for you more clearly. This is what you are suggesting: 5500gp = +10 speed, +5-9 jump 6000gp = +30 speed, +8-12 jump If you don't see the problem with that, then I give up as well!
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:19 PM	no after taking +5 jump bonus away then adding +20 speed you come out with only +500gp more to the price. the +5 would allow you to jump much better while the 20 more feet only gives you 4 more squares to move. to get +5 to jump through strength you would need to have 20 strength.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:20 PM	I know, you obviously missed the point. Let me try and spell it out for you more clearly. This is what you are suggesting: 5500gp = +10 speed, +5-9 jump 6000gp = +30 speed, +8-12 jump If you don't see the problem with that, then I give up as well! the +5-9 is add along with the +5 making it +10-16
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:21 PM	no after taking +5 jump bonus away then adding +20 speed you come out with only +500gp more to the price. the +5 would allow you to jump much better while the 20 more feet only gives you 4 more squares to move. to get +5 to jump through strength you would need to have 20 strength. Read the rules!!!!!!!!!!!! You get a +4 jump bonus for every +10 speed above 30ft! So +20 speed gives a +4-8 jump bonus all on its own!!!!
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:23 PM	you get more jump bonus with the boots then with just speed
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:25 PM	the +5-9 is add along with the +5 making it +10-16 WRONG!!!!!!! +5 jump, plus another +4 from +10 speed, but only if your speed is at least 30 ft already, for a +5-9 to jump. I guess technically the range is +5-11, since if your speed was 20 ft (-6 to jump), that gets removed from increasing to 30 ft, then the additional +5, for +11.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:26 PM	you get the +5 enhancement no matter if your running or standing still.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:27 PM	you get more jump bonus with the boots then with just speed Not necessarily. Example: A creature with a base speed of 30 ft. +10 speed and +5 jump = 40 ft and +9 jump +30 speed = 60 ft and +12 jump
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:29 PM	you get the +5 enhancement no matter if your running or standing still. According to RAW, that is also the case with just speed enchancements to jump bonus.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:30 PM	you get the +5 just from wearing them. thats the springing part of the striding and springing. the +5 is an enhancement bonus.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:32 PM	you get the +5 just from wearing them. thats the springing part of the striding and springing. the +5 is an enhancement bonus. You get a +12 jump bonus from just wearing +30 speed boots. So they are waaaaaaaaaaay better!!!!!!!
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:33 PM	You get a +12 jump bonus from just wearing +30 speed boots. So they are waaaaaaaaaaay better!!!!!!! thats if your running the +5 you get whether your running or standing still. its an enhancement not your running so you jump farther thing. if you run you would get that jump bonus plus the +5
TygerTyger 06-06-07, 01:34 PM	Zzak... listen to what people are telling you. 1) The 'rules' you are using are not hard and fast rules. 2) The first thing you do when trying to determine an item's price is compare it to existing, already priced items. 3) You are trying to create an item that does more than the Boots of Striding and Jumping. Approximately three times more. 4) Therefore, the cost is going to be substantially more... say, 3 times more. That is all people are trying to tell you. The "formulas" that you are using are not rules. Read it carefully. NOT RULES. They are guidelines to use only when you can't find a decent comparison item. In this case, you have your decent comparison item... the Boots of Striding and Jumping. Case closed.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:36 PM	i am no longer argueing the item i am now arguing the +5 is an enhancement in the boots of striding and springing so once you take the +5 jump enhancement out i will gladly triple the resulting cost.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:37 PM	thats if your running the +5 you get whether your running or standing still. its an enhancement not your running so you jump farther thing. if you run you would get that jump bonus plus the +5 WRONG!!!! You get that bonus whether you are running or not. Read the rules for the jump skill! Here, let me help: Jump (Str; Armor Check Penalty) Check The DC and the distance you can cover vary according to the type of jump you are attempting (see below). Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet. All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled. Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round. If you have ranks in Jump and you succeed on a Jump check, you land on your feet (when appropriate). If you attempt a Jump check untrained, you land prone unless you beat the DC by 5 or more. Long Jump DCs Long Jump Distance Jump DC1 Requires a 20-foot running start. Without a running start, double the DC. 5 feet 5 10 feet 10 15 feet 15 20 feet 20 25 feet 25 30 feet 30 Long Jump A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance. The DC for the jump is equal to the distance jumped (in feet). If your check succeeds, you land on your feet at the far end. If you fail the check by less than 5, you don’t clear the distance, but you can make a DC 15 Reflex save to grab the far edge of the gap. You end your movement grasping the far edge. If that leaves you dangling over a chasm or gap, getting up requires a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. High Jump DCs High Jump Distance1 Jump DC2 Not including vertical reach; see below. Requires a 20-foot running start. Without a running start, double the DC. 1 foot 4 2 feet 8 3 feet 12 4 feet 16 5 feet 20 6 feet 24 7 feet 28 8 feet 32 High Jump A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead. The DC is equal to 4 times the distance to be cleared. If you jumped up to grab something, a successful check indicates that you reached the desired height. If you wish to pull yourself up, you can do so with a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. If you fail the Jump check, you do not reach the height, and you land on your feet in the same spot from which you jumped. As with a long jump, the DC is doubled if you do not get a running start of at least 20 feet. Vertical Reach Creature Size Vertical Reach Colossal 128 ft. Gargantuan 64 ft. Huge 32 ft. Large 16 ft. Medium 8 ft. Small 4 ft. Tiny 2 ft. Diminutive 1 ft. Fine ½ ft. Obviously, the difficulty of reaching a given height varies according to the size of the character or creature. The maximum vertical reach (height the creature can reach without jumping) for an average creature of a given size is shown on the table below. (As a Medium creature, a typical human can reach 8 feet without jumping.) Quadrupedal creatures don’t have the same vertical reach as a bipedal creature; treat them as being one size category smaller. Hop Up You can jump up onto an object as tall as your waist, such as a table or small boulder, with a DC 10 Jump check. Doing so counts as 10 feet of movement, so if your speed is 30 feet, you could move 20 feet, then hop up onto a counter. You do not need to get a running start to hop up, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start. Jumping Down If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start. If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did. Action None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump. Special Effects that increase your movement also increase your jumping distance, since your check is modified by your speed. If you have the Run feat, you get a +4 bonus on Jump checks for any jumps made after a running start. A halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Jump checks because halflings are agile and athletic. If you have the Acrobatic feat, you get a +2 bonus on Jump checks. Synergy If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you get a +2 bonus on Jump checks. If you have 5 or more ranks in Jump, you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.
Evicmar 06-06-07, 01:38 PM	I remember asking a DM for an item that had uses per day and showed the item creation guidelines and prices for making it. I had even writen everything up for him. I was told no. Then a few months later I asked if I could purchase an item from the Magic Item Compendium and was told yes. I then asked why I couldn't have the exact same item a few months ago for the exact same price. I got silence. The item I had originally asked for was created in the magic item compendium. I even showed the DM the write up I had done a couple of months ago on the item. They matched perfectly except for what form it took. I wanted arm bands and they were gloves. Exact same slot also. Since this little incident the DM has been more open minded. The rules in the back of the DMG are for wonderous item creation. WOTC will use them and so should you. I say make the expeditions retreat boots with the +5 jump check and use them.
TygerTyger 06-06-07, 01:40 PM	Actually, only the speed boost is considered an enhancement bonus. The +5 to Jump checks is clearly ennumerated as a Competence bonus. From the SRD: Boots of Striding and Springing These boots increase the wearer’s base land speed by 10 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +5 competence bonus on Jump checks. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, longstrider, creator must have 5 ranks in the Jump skill; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:43 PM	okay so i got that wrong but it made my point better. once you take the cost of the +5 Competence bonus to jumping out i will triple the result for the boots of expeditions retreat cost.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:45 PM	okay so i got that wrong but it made my point better. once you take the cost of the +5 Competence bonus to jumping out i will triple the result for the boots of expeditions retreat cost. WRONG AGAIN! Static bonuses are NOT linearly scaled, they are quadratically scaled!
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:48 PM	i want the price of +10 to speed which i will then triple to get the +30 bonus being as they are both 1st level spells.
gotbrain 06-06-07, 01:49 PM	I'm with Zzak on the +5 to jumping; this is in addition to the normal jump range you get from your movement rate. Just look at the prerequisite for creating the boots. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, longstrider, creator must have 5 ranks in the Jump skill However the boots, without the jump bonus, would NOT be only 6000. Maybe around 15000 would be more accurate.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:52 PM	i want the price of +10 to speed which i will then triple to get the +30 bonus being as they are both 1st level spells. YOU DON'T TRIPLE IT!!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE TO MULTIPLE IT BY 9 (3^2)!!!!!!! GET IT!!!!
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:54 PM	yes i must say 6000 is low now so get what the +10 speed is worth and i will triple it for the +30 and if its still low i will double the tripled value. all i want is the cost of +10 speed enhancement.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:54 PM	I'm with Zzak on the +5 to jumping; this is in addition to the normal jump range you get from your movement rate. Just look at the prerequisite for creating the boots. This was never disputed.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:55 PM	yes i must say 6000 is low now so get what the +10 speed is worth and i will triple it for the +30 and if its still low i will double the tripled value. all i want is the cost of +10 speed enhancement. Easy, 3000gp for +10 speed. So +30 speed should be about 27,000gp
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:57 PM	3000 tripled is 9000 double that and it is 18000 the 18000 sounds right
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 01:58 PM	3000 tripled is 9000 double that and it is 18000 the 18000 sounds right No, that sounds too low. 18,000 gp sounds right for +25 movement, but too low for +30
Evicmar 06-06-07, 01:59 PM	WRONG AGAIN! Static bonuses are NOT linearly scaled, they are quadratically scaled! I think you are missing that he is creating a new item and not improving an existing. The only bonus he is applying is the base bonus granted by the spell.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 01:59 PM	only because you think 9* is what i need to do! where do you get that?
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 02:01 PM	I think you are missing that he is creating a new item and not improving an existing. The only bonus he is applying is the base bonus granted by the spell. Basing item prices for continous static abilites off of spell level is a mistake (see mage armor, true strike, shield, enlarge person, etc.)
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 02:03 PM	only because you think 9* is what i need to do! where do you get that? Static bonuses scale quadratically, see weapon bonuses, armor bonuses, belt of strength, ring of protection, bracers of armor, cloak of charmisma, etc, etc, etc
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 02:04 PM	+6 squares of movement the feet is just for scale
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 02:07 PM	+6 squares of movement he feet is just for scale You are obviously very confused. Let me give you an example: +1 weapon = 2000 gp (1^2*2000) +2 weapon = 8000 gp (2^2*2000) +3 weapon = 18000 gp (3^2*2000) +10 speed = 3000 gp (1^2*3000) +20 speed = 12000 gp (2^2*3000) +30 speed = 27000 gp (3^2*3000) Get it?
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 02:10 PM	You are obviously very confused. Let me give you an example: +1 weapon = 2000 gp (1^2*2000) +2 weapon = 8000 gp (2^2*2000) +3 weapon = 18000 gp (3^2*2000) +10 speed = 3000 gp (1^2*3000) +20 speed = 12000 gp (2^2*3000) +30 speed = 27000 gp (3^2*3000) Get it? none of the equations use more then 2500
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 02:14 PM	none of the equations use more then 2500 The 3000 is back calculated from boots of striding and springing. +5 jump is worth 2500 gp (5^2*100). 5500gp-2500gp gives 3000gp. +10 speed is worth 3000gp.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 02:22 PM	my question is why is there 2 1st level spells that are basicly the same yet one is a third as powerfull? if you go by you are using a 1st level spell by a first level caster and want the effect to be continuous you would do the equation 1*1*2000=2000 yet that is clearly to little compared to the boots of striding and springing and yet to get the price of the +5 you use the equation givin in the same place to get 2500 and the boots costs 5500 so these 2 equations give us a gap of 1000gp
The_Ditto 06-06-07, 02:25 PM	my question is why is there 2 1st level spells that are basicly the same yet one is a third as powerfull? Duration ... one is druid one is wizard ... Why is Flame Strike a 5th level cleric spell, but only 4th level druid? Different classes, different power level with certain spells ... Some classes are better at things than others .. Druids/rangers are good at overland movement (ie Longstrider - hour /level) Wizards are good at tactical movement (ie teleport, dim-door, expeditious retreat)
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 02:28 PM	my question is why is there 2 1st level spells that are basicly the same yet one is a third as powerfull? Because one is a wizard/sorcerer spell and one is a druid/ranger spell. if you go by you are using a 1st level spell by a first level caster and want the effect to be continuous you would do the equation 1*1*2000=2000 Never, ever use that method for static continuous numerical bonuses (see mage armor, shield, and true strike for very obvious examples). yet that is clearly to little compared to the boots of striding and springing and yet to get the price of the +5 you use the equation givin in the same place to get 2500 and the item costs 5500 so these 2 equations give us a gap of 1000gp Numerical bonus use a different equation. The Spell level x Caster Level x 2000 gp for continous items will NOT produce balanced items. It works okay for use-activated items.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 02:30 PM	if it does not work for that why will you equation to get the +5 work when they come from the same place?
Everdreaming 06-06-07, 02:34 PM	Because, one of them is a 1st level sor/wiz and 1 is 1st level ranger. And 1st level travel domain. Wizards get 1st level spells at 1st level. Rangers get 1st level spells at 6th level, 4th if they have a high enough wisdom.
The_Ditto 06-06-07, 02:35 PM	and just to reinforce the "bonus squared" logic ... go revisit the item creation charts: Effect Base Price Example Ability bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +2 Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp +1 chainmail Bonus spell Spell level squared x 1,000 gp Pearl of power AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared x 2,000 gp Ring of protection +3 AC bonus (other)1 Bonus squared x 2,500 gp Ioun stone, dusty rose prism Natural armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 2,000 gp Amulet of natural armor +1 Save bonus (resistance) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp Cloak of resistance +5 Save bonus (other)1 Bonus squared x 2,000 gp Stone of good luck Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared x 100 gp Cloak of elvenkind Spell resistance 10,000 gp per point over SR 12; SR 13 minimum Mantle of spell resistance Weapon bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 2,000 gp +1 longsword pretty much everything is "bonus squared" ... or "something" squared. (SR isn't, but that's the exception, not the rule) It follows that a movement "bonus" would also be squared ... 10^2 * 30 = 3,000 (rough reverse calculation of boots) 20^2 * 30 = 12,000 30^2 * 30 = 27,000 You could also use: 1^2 * 3,000 = 3,000 2^2 * 3,000 = 12,000 3^2 * 3,000 = 27,000 Doesn't matter, but it comes up with a "ballpark" of 27,000 gp for a +30 speed enhancement ... as a DM I might let it slide for 25,000 ... but not for 20,000 .... the actual spell used doesn't even figure into the formula ... and that's deliberate ... if you're using a spell to calculate a bonus ... you're doing it wrong .. plain and simple .. :tiphat:
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 02:37 PM	if it does not work for that why will you equation to get the +5 work when they come from the same place? They do not come from the same equations. The +5 uses the Skill bonus equation.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 02:39 PM	what i was say is it comes from the same table so why should the skill bonus work yet not the use-activated or continuous
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 02:45 PM	what i was say is it comes from the same table so why should the skill bonus work yet not the use-activated or continuous Because static continuous numerical bonuses are calculated differently because they are more powerful because they do not require actions to use. Compare +10 jump to the jump spell. +10 jump should be 10,000gp, but if you use the spell level xcaster level x2000 x2 (1min/level adjustment) it is only 4000gp. A +10 jump use-activated item for 4000gp sounds okay, but not one that is always activated.
Evicmar 06-06-07, 02:46 PM	Basing item prices for continous static abilites off of spell level is a mistake (see mage armor, true strike, shield, enlarge person, etc.) I see what you are saying and agree with it's more than just the base spell for a permanent effect. However I disagree with your pricing breakdown. The cost to purchase is 5500 gp. The cost to make is 2750 gp. The cost of the +5 jump is 2500 gp of that leaving 250 gp for +10 movement and the cost of really nice boots. Please correct any math errors I may have made.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 02:48 PM	okay thats the way you play then use activated it is level 1 spell * caster level 1 * 2000 * (5 / 5 uses a day) = 2000 is that a good equation for you?
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 02:51 PM	I see what you are saying and agree withit's more than just the base spell for a permanent effect. However I disagree with your pricing breakdown. The cost to purchase is 5500 gp. The cost to make is 2750 gp. The cost of the +5 jump is 2500 gp of that leaving 250 gp for +10 movement and the cost of really nice boots. Please correct any math errors I may have made. The equations listed give the base price. The cost to purchase is 5500gp, the cost to make is 2750gp. The cost to purchase +5 jump is 2500gp, cost to make is 1250gp. The cost to purchase +10 speed is 3000gp, cost to make is 1500gp. The cost to purchase +30 speed is 27000gp, cost to make is 13500gp etc.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 02:55 PM	okay thats the way you play then use activated it is level 1 spell * caster level 1 * 2000 * (5 / 5 uses a day) = 2000 is that a good equation for you? Don't forget that Expeditious Retreat has a 1 min/level duration and therefore should also be multiplied by 2, for a total of 4000gp.
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 02:57 PM	level 1 spell * caster level 1 * 2000 * (5 / 5 uses a day) = 2000 this equation makes sence because it is 5 minutes a day that you can have +30ft while the same equation for longstrider gives 5 hours a day at +10 when you do the uses a day it changes because you have to include time in it. so is 2000gp for 5 minutes of +30ft okay with you? where did you get multiply by 2?
Evicmar 06-06-07, 03:02 PM	The equations listed give the base price. The cost to purchase is 5500gp, the cost to make is 2750gp. The cost to purchase +5 jump is 2500gp, cost to make is 1250gp. The cost to purchase +10 speed is 3000gp, cost to make is 1500gp. The cost to purchase +30 speed is 27000gp, cost to make is 13500gp etc. I missed the top of the column that stated base cost. You are correct for the 3000 gp left. The spell added to the item is the 1st level spell longstrider. That's what gives the +10 enhancement bonus to movement. Since it a continuous the cost on the chart reads spell level * level of caster * 2000 gp * special for duration of spell. Which is you read the special is 1*1*2000 gp * 1.5 = 3000 gp. There is the remainder of your gold as per item creation. If you were to make boots of expeditious retreat they would cost 1*1*2000 gp* 2 or 4000 gp. and it would not be broken. Just use a different spell with different duration.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 03:04 PM	where did you get multiply by 2? If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. Having 5 charges/day of a 1 min/level effect is more powerful than 5 charges of a 24 hours/level effect.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 03:08 PM	If you were to make boots of expeditious retreat they would cost 1*1*2000 gp* 2 or 4000 gp. and it would not be broken. Just use a different spell with different duration. Yes they would be broken. You are suggesting the following: 4000gp = +30 speed (which also gives you a +12 jump bonus) VS. 5500gp = +10 speed (+4 jump) and +5 jump (+9 jump total) So for 1500gp LESS you get +20 speed and +3 jump. Get it now why you can't use spell x caster x2000 for continuous numerical bonuses? EDIT: Even if you assume they used the 1.5 modifier (they don't always), that gives you a base price of 2000 gp for +10 movement, so +30 movement should still be 18,000gp not 4000gp
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 03:14 PM	Yes they would be broken. You are suggesting the following: 4000gp = +30 speed (which also gives you a +12 jump bonus) VS. 5500gp = +10 speed (+4 jump) and +5 jump (+9 jump total) So for 1500gp LESS you get +20 speed and +3 jump. Get it now why you can't use spell x caster x2000 for continuous numerical bonuses? EDIT: Even if you assume they used the 1.5 modifier (they don't always), that gives you a base price of 2000 gp for +10 movement, so +30 movement should still be 18,000gp not 4000gp yes i agree that would be broken but what about 5 uses a day for 1 minute +30?
Evicmar 06-06-07, 03:15 PM	k, so you are saying then that expeditious retreat is broken and long strider is ok? Because under epeditious retreat you get +30 base move every time and under longstrider you get +10 base movement every time. Your arguement is not that the item is broken. It's that the game is broken. Congrats on stating the obvious. It's an abstract game system. If you want a game that's realistic in every aspect then play harn , die every 1-2 adventures, continuously make new characters, and go away.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 03:22 PM	yes i agree that would be broken but what about 5 uses a day for 1 minute +30? I think it would be fine if it requires a standard action to activate. If you want to be able to activate it as a free action it should cost significantly more.
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 03:23 PM	k, so you are saying then that expeditious retreat is broken and long strider is ok? Because under epeditious retreat you get +30 base move every time and under longstrider you get +10 base movement every time. Your arguement is not that the item is broken. It's that the game is broken. Congrats on stating the obvious. It's an abstract game system. If you want a game that's realistic in every aspect then play harn , die every 1-2 adventures, continuously make new characters, and go away. Are you done? Would you like to get back down from your soap box?
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 03:25 PM	actualy it would be the same because its use activated while the other kind cost less and dont rag on him he is telling the truth and to prove it polymorph!
TygerTyger 06-06-07, 03:27 PM	Yes, but pointing out the difficulties in the system, completely out of context, and getting upset at someone who is trying to explain the correct way to do something, according to the rules and trying to limit huge exploitation... well that's just a touch over the top, don't you agree Zzak?
unundindur 06-06-07, 03:32 PM	One thing possibly mentioned, but I didnt see it is this: When you subtract the price of the +5 enchantment to jump, have you also remembered that this bonus is in addition to the basic +10 feet bonus, and as such costs 1,5 times the normal price? This should as far as I see give the basic +10 speed a lower price...
zzakk2to2 06-06-07, 03:33 PM	yes we looked over that alot and agread on the +5 = 2500gp
unundindur 06-06-07, 04:17 PM	yes we looked over that alot and agread on the +5 = 2500gp Ok :)
calvinNhobbes 06-06-07, 04:21 PM	One thing possibly mentioned, but I didnt see it is this: When you subtract the price of the +5 enchantment to jump, have you also remembered that this bonus is in addition to the basic +10 feet bonus, and as such costs 1,5 times the normal price? This should as far as I see give the basic +10 speed a lower price... Yes, Evicmar pointed this out earlier. However, if you include the 1.5 adjustment, it would be on the +10 speed (2000*1.5 =3000). However, the use of the 1.5 adjustment is variable at best. It really depends on whether you consider the two abilites "similar or different". The rules aren't very clear on how this is exactly defined. But even in this "best" case scenario, that would put a permanent +30 speed bonus at 18,000gp. As others have pointed out, movement is a very important attribute, and boosting the item up to 20,000-25,000gp is probably the best thing to do balance-wise. In general, it is easier to give extra treasure if you happen to over estimate the value of a new item, than it is to remove or reduce teasure if you under estimate.
Evicmar 06-07-07, 09:58 AM	Yes, Evicmar pointed this out earlier. However, if you include the 1.5 adjustment, it would be on the +10 speed (2000*1.5 =3000). However, the use of the 1.5 adjustment is variable at best. It really depends on whether you consider the two abilites "similar or different". The rules aren't very clear on how this is exactly defined. But even in this "best" case scenario, that would put a permanent +30 speed bonus at 18,000gp. As others have pointed out, movement is a very important attribute, and boosting the item up to 20,000-25,000gp is probably the best thing to do balance-wise. In general, it is easier to give extra treasure if you happen to over estimate the value of a new item, than it is to remove or reduce teasure if you under estimate. K, then how would you justify the cost difference between a wand of expaditious retreat costing just 750 gp and 20-25k gp for boots? The cost mark up you are suggesting is rediculous. Also the boots of striding and springing are still the better boots of the group. scenerio.... (You are on a 15' wide path on a cliff side. There is a rockslide ahead of you that you can not pass. Across the way there is an other path that's only a 20' jump away. ) With either set of boots you only get 10' worth of movement before the jump. The movement must be in a straight line. In every scenerio I've seen for pregenerated modules you never have the room to run that you would allow you to fully use expedicious retreat when you need to make a jump. Also in my last 3 1st-20th level characters I've had to make a total of 2 jump checks. There are so many ways to fly in the game this is a pointless discrepency. How useful is this really?
calvinNhobbes 06-07-07, 12:09 PM	K, then how would you justify the cost difference between a wand of expaditious retreat costing just 750 gp and 20-25k gp for boots? The exact same way you justify a wand of true strike vs. bracers that give continous true strike. The wand requires a standard action to use. Actions per round are the most limited resource in the game. The cost mark up you are suggesting is rediculous. No it is not, as others have already pointed out. Also the boots of striding and springing are still the better boots of the group. scenerio.... (You are on a 15' wide path on a cliff side. There is a rockslide ahead of you that you can not pass. Across the way there is an other path that's only a 20' jump away. ) With either set of boots you only get 10' worth of movement before the jump. The movement must be in a straight line. In every scenerio I've seen for pregenerated modules you never have the room to run that you would allow you to fully use expedicious retreat when you need to make a jump. Read the rules under the jump skill more carefully. The +4 bonus per +10 movement over 30 does NOT require that you move that distance. If you think about it from a physics stand point, it actually makes sense. If you'd like a physics lesson, PM me. Also in my last 3 1st-20th level characters I've had to make a total of 2 jump checks. There are so many ways to fly in the game this is a pointless discrepency. How useful is this really? This comment is pointless. All that means is that your DMs have not put you in situations that require such a skill. Any skill could be considered useless if your DM never gives you the opportunity to use it. I've found the jump skill very useful.
zzakk2to2 06-07-07, 01:27 PM	I'll make a level 400 wizard who will reaserch a level 10 spell that will Instantaneously make a persons natural speed ∞ft and have it cast on a 1st level commoner and he will go to you house and kick your but ∞ times calvinNhobbes.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-07-07, 01:31 PM	mmmmm....jump in combat is wonderful (high ground ftw). But that's as long as you have a DM that actually understands and utilizes all fo the rules, not just "thog smash"
calvinNhobbes 06-07-07, 01:40 PM	I'll make a level 400 wizard who will reaserch a level 10 spell that will Instantaneously make a persons natural speed ∞ft and have it cast on a 1st level commoner and he will go to you house and kick your but ∞ times calvinNhobbes. oooooooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa y..... :rolleyes:
Vegepygmy 06-07-07, 01:43 PM	This comment is pointless.This whole thread is pointless, my friend. We have provided zzakk2to2 and Evicmar with the pertinent information; they obviously don't want to absorb it. You should just put them on your "pay no mind" list and move on.
calvinNhobbes 06-07-07, 01:44 PM	This whole thread is pointless, my friend. We have provided zzakk2to2 and Evicmar with the pertinent information; they don't want to absorb it. You should just put them on your "pay no mind" list and move on. I know, I know, but I'm like a moth to the flame! :D
DragonDan 06-07-07, 01:53 PM	The 3000 is back calculated from boots of striding and springing. +5 jump is worth 2500 gp (5^2*100). 5500gp-2500gp gives 3000gp. +10 speed is worth 3000gp. No. The +5 jump is worth 2500gp, the +10 speed is worth 2000gp. The last 1000gp is from having 2 different enhancements on the same item slot; caculated at .5x the lowest priced enhancement (which is the +10 speed). [This is referenced from the DMG, pg 282, sidebar "Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Value and MIC, pg 233, "Improving Magic Items"] So actually +30 speed should be: +10= 1x1x2000=2000 +20 = 2x2x2000=8000 +30 = 3x3x2000=18000 18k sounds fair to me for +30 speed. Dan.
calvinNhobbes 06-07-07, 02:52 PM	No. The +5 jump is worth 2500gp, the +10 speed is worth 2000gp. The last 1000gp is from having 2 different enhancements on the same item slot; caculated at .5x the lowest priced enhancement (which is the +10 speed). [This is referenced from the DMG, pg 282, sidebar "Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Value and MIC, pg 233, "Improving Magic Items"] So actually +30 speed should be: +10= 1x1x2000=2000 +20 = 2x2x2000=8000 +30 = 3x3x2000=18000 18k sounds fair to me for +30 speed. Dan. This was already addressed, see post #73
DragonDan 06-07-07, 03:34 PM	This was already addressed, see post #73 That's what I get for not finishing the thread. :doh:
Knightblde 06-07-07, 04:02 PM	Speed is WAY to important to come across so cheap. The #1 source of support for this is the DMG v 3.0. In that book these boots were 'double your speed' not +10'. It proved to be so broken that WotC changed it. Longstrider is also not even in the 3.0 PHB. Think about these on a monk. A monk can get 50 speed. Add these boots, now you are at 80 speed. Move move for 160. Add spring attack and you can move 40, attack, move back 40 and wait. Now that character will have to charge you to hit you. If you wanted, you could charge 160 feet or 80 squares; that is 80 INCHES. That it longer than I would imagine most gaming tables. LOL if you started next to a mage, and have the run feet, you can outrun his magic missle! Simple fact is, just like the ring of true strike, it breaks the game. I would not allow it at my table on any day. Most of the posters here agree (I think) with this position. They have stopped posting (again, I think) because they know they can not persuade you. I don't know your age, but this is a lesson you should learn. People stop 'arguing' with you when they know it is pointless. You may think you have won, but you are just pittied, in that case. Of course this game is all about fun, and what you do at your table is fine. Just don't be surprised if you show up to a game store or a new game with these boots and you are laughed out of the game. Happy Gaming!
zzakk2to2 06-07-07, 05:56 PM	a monk can get the same speed with a wand to and like i have and someone else has said 18000gp is mechanicly how much it should cost and after you figure that out all you can do is show it to your DM and find out what they want.
Knightblde 06-07-07, 06:10 PM	a monk can get the same speed with a wand to and like i have and someone else has said 18000gp is mechanicly how much it should cost and after you figure that out all you can do is show it to your DM and find out what they want. And mechanicly a ring of true strike is 2,000 gp, which still doesn't work. You get the attack bonus of a 20th level fighter every other round. Add your boots and your running, activating ring, shooting, running, activating ring, shooting... rince and repeat till you kite your foe to death in all cases. A belt of reduce person came in an adventure for 20,000gp, that is also a level 1 spell. But like you said, show your DM and see what they say.
Fallenangel359 06-07-07, 09:02 PM	Actually, I just realized something... that the formula for making this item, you all have wrong its [(+movsq)^2*1.5*2000gp]+(5*5*100gp) The 1.5 is the cheaper multiple ability added, multiplier now once you increase the bonus above 2 squares, the multipliers switch, and the formula becomes [(+movsq)^2*2000gp]+(5*5*100*1.5), due the the jump bonus being the smaller cost That would place this item at [(6)^2*2000gp]+(5*5*100*1.5) being a total of 72000+3750, or 75750gp. There, go math. The reason why this one was so hard to figure out, was you have to realize you need to switch the 1.5x multiplier over.
Fallenangel359 06-07-07, 09:07 PM	Note, this isn't even a bad price, considering its +30 movement speed, for a 30 movement speed character, raises their jump mod by 17, and +17 to jump mod alone is 28900gp, not to mention the actual movement speed increase. Now if you want a truely impressive piece of jumping material, take a +30 jump item (cl 20, according to ELH), and +6 square movement item (72000gp), and combine them (90k+(72k*1.5) 198k for a +42 jump item. Oddly, a +10 square item (+50 move) (nets +20 jump), would cost 200k. (both +10, and 200k are the limit for non epic). I think based on these results, I hit it dead on the nail. Read the multipliers, people :)
calvinNhobbes 06-07-07, 09:48 PM	Fallenangel359, Good analysis, but your math is a little off. Notice here: its [(+movsq)^2*1.5*2000gp]+(5*5*100gp) [(+movsq)^2*2000gp]+(5*5*100*1.5), due the the jump bonus being the smaller cost That would place this item at [(6)^2*2000gp]+(5*5*100*1.5) being a total of 72000+3750, or 75750gp. If you are going to use +move squares, the formula would be (x^2*500) not (x^2*2000). Example: +2 move squares (2^2*500= 2000gp) while (2^2+2000=8000gp)
Fallenangel359 06-08-07, 01:06 AM	whoops... too many numbers, lol It seems to be that I need to pay attention to numbers. Thanks for correcting me. It hurt my brain to even make the formula in the first place (oddly, I fail most math classes).
crizhII 06-08-07, 05:09 AM	Never, ever use that method for static continuous numerical bonuses (see mage armor, shield, and true strike for very obvious examples) (noob on this board) You've used that argument about 8 times now in this thread and you've sounded more arrogant every time you've used it. The reason you don't use the spell effect line on table 7-33 to calculate the cost of such items is because they already have predefined costs. A Brooch of Shield provides a +4 shield bonus to AC and costs 40k gp (4*4*2500) rather than 4k gp (1*1*2000*2). Skip made it quite clear that the problem here was using the wrong formula, use the right formula and you end up in the ball-park. You might recall that he suggested that an insight bonus to attack should use the weapon enhancement formula with a linear multiplication of half to compensate for the loss of damage. You'll note that once the skill bonus is removed that Boots of Striding and Springing are in line with the formula (1*3*2000*0.5). Halfing for duration is generous but it is a rubbish effect. So I compare Boots of Expeditious Retreat to Boots of Striding and Springing. I discover that BoSaS use the formula in the DMG and so I use the same flaming formula. Boots of Expeditious Retreat. CL3, 14,500gp ((1*3*2000*2)+(5*5*100)). The base effect is 4 times the price, seems reasonable to me, certainly compared to the 240 potions of Expeditios Retreat I could have bought for the same price. Try to remember that your opinion is just that. If you believe your opinion to be more than that you need to support it with appropriate quotes from a reliable source.
calvinNhobbes 06-08-07, 10:05 AM	You've used that argument about 8 times now in this thread and you've sounded more arrogant every time you've used it. Arrogance? No, just frustration! The reason you don't use the spell effect line on table 7-33 to calculate the cost of such items is because they already have predefined costs. No, the reason you don't is a function of balance. Allowing continuous spell effects that do not require an action to use is unbalancing unless you adjust the price accordingly. A Brooch of Shield provides a +4 shield bonus to AC and costs 40k gp (4*4*2500) rather than 4k gp (1*1*2000*2). I have no idea where you get the 40k for a brooch of shield. I would price it as (4^2*1000*1.5) for 24,000gp. Bonus squared times 1000 (for armor/shield bonus) times 1.5 for uncustomary space. But in any case, you are suggestig what we have ALL been suggesting. Static bonuses scale quadractically NOT linearly. Skip made it quite clear that the problem here was using the wrong formula, use the right formula and you end up in the ball-park. You might recall that he suggested that an insight bonus to attack should use the weapon enhancement formula with a linear multiplication of half to compensate for the loss of damage. Exactly. That is what we have all been saying, you have to use the right formula. Perhaps you should read the thread more carefully. You'll note that once the skill bonus is removed that Boots of Striding and Springing are in line with the formula (1*3*2000*0.5). Halfing for duration is generous but it is a rubbish effect. I'm not sure what you mean by rubbish. But by your own analysis it is obvious that BoSaS do not follow that formula. In addition your formula does not account for the 1.5 modifier for an additional ability. So I compare Boots of Expeditious Retreat to Boots of Striding and Springing. I discover that BoSaS use the formula in the DMG and so I use the same flaming formula. No, they do not use the formula in the DMG. Your math is wrong. Boots of Expeditious Retreat. CL3, 14,500gp ((1*3*2000*2)+(5*5*100)). There's no need to add the extra +5 jump, but if you do, you are forgetting the 1.5 modifier for an extra ability. In addition, the caster level does not have to be 3. It can be 1. The base effect is 4 times the price, seems reasonable to me, certainly compared to the 240 potions of Expeditios Retreat I could have bought for the same price. No it is NOT comparable to 240 potions. Why you may ask? Potions require a standard action to use AND provoke an AOO. Continuous static bonuses do not. That is more powerful and should be priced as such. Try to remember that your opinion is just that. Back at ya. And don't forget, opinions can still be wrong. If you believe your opinion to be more than that you need to support it with appropriate quotes from a reliable source. Dungeons and Dragons is a game, not a research paper. Once you go beyond what is exactly printed in the rulebooks you have to use COMMON SENSE. Heck, just to interpret what the rulebooks say you need common sense since they were not written by lawyers with english degrees. If you want to play with boots that give +30 movement for 6000gp, or 14000gp, or 1gp, or whatever that is up to you. But don't be surprized if it unbalances the game. If you don't care about game balance, then do what ever you want.
zzakk2to2 06-08-07, 10:10 AM	use activated items dont take a turn
calvinNhobbes 06-08-07, 10:14 AM	use activated items dont take a turn Not true, depends on the item. Relevant SRD quote: Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself.
crizhII 06-08-07, 10:52 AM	No, the reason you don't is a function of balance. Allowing continuous spell effects that do not require an action to use is unbalancing unless you adjust the price accordingly. Sorry, haven't got time to cover all of this right now, I'll get back to you tomorrow. However. Table 7-33 Use Activated or Continuous .,.,.,.,,,.Spell Level X Caster Level X 2000GP Why do continuous effects need to cost more than the listed price of continuous items?
calvinNhobbes 06-08-07, 11:12 AM	Use Activated or Continuous .,.,.,.,,,.Spell Level X Caster Level X 2000GP Why do continuous effects need to cost more than the listed price of continuous items? Because of this: Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced and use that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values. In addition, they do not need to cost more. Some cost less. It really depends on the power of the spell. Spell level is not always a good indicator of spell power, especially if that power is continuous.
crizhII 06-09-07, 10:26 AM	Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced and use that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values. Yeesssss..... I compare Boots of Expeditious Retreat to Boots of Striding and Springing and discover that the later is based upon the formula in table 7-33 but is given a number of generous discounts. It is permitted a multiplier of 0.5, presumably because the numerical effect is significantly smaller than similar effects of the same level, and the skill bonus is permitted with no slot multiplier, presumably because it is so closely linked to the primary effect. There is no other reasonable way of calculating the process without tying oneself in the sort of knots that will innevitably be sliced apart by Occams razor.... The resulting item is priced at almost half the price one arrives at by using the formula (9750gp). Having compared our proposed item to an extant one we find that the formula is the best way to calculate the cost and we then proceed to use it. Significant numbers of the items presented by WOTC have been priced using this formula from table 7-33. To ignore this and to apply quadratic scaling to these calculated prices when making similar items, when you know full well that the base formula that they are derived from is not quadratic, is churlish and uncharitable to those who cannot see through the fallacies in your argument.
Evicmar 06-09-07, 10:43 AM	Guys, I've given up on calvinNhobbes. He has noted a single skill that gets a huge benefit from the increase of base movement. The jump skill. The +30 base movement from expadicious retreat is a +12 to jump check of any kind. I've tried to explain to him that this is meaningless because a party by 5th level will have access to the fly spell and NEVER have to make a jump check ever again but he will not listen. The PER RULES cost of boots of expadicious retreat is 4000 gp. If you choose to follow calvinNhobbes's logic then go with his it's better than a +3 weapon cost of 20-25K gp. I personally will follow the BY THE RULES version. This is my last post on this subject and will not be reading it any further.
zzakk2to2 06-09-07, 10:53 AM	i agree eccept i will be reading it.
calvinNhobbes 06-09-07, 11:41 AM	I compare Boots of Expeditious Retreat to Boots of Striding and Springing and discover that the later is based upon the formula in table 7-33 but is given a number of generous discounts. No they are not. It is permitted a multiplier of 0.5, presumably because the numerical effect is significantly smaller than similar effects of the same level, and the skill bonus is permitted with no slot multiplier, presumably because it is so closely linked to the primary effect. You just made up the 0.5 multiplier. There are no rules justifying it. There is no other reasonable way of calculating the process without tying oneself in the sort of knots that will innevitably be sliced apart by Occams razor.... Yes, there are other reasonable ways, you just refuse to acknowledge them. The resulting item is priced at almost half the price one arrives at by using the formula (9750gp). Your math is wrong, but you refuse to accept it. Having compared our proposed item to an extant one we find that the formula is the best way to calculate the cost and we then proceed to use it. Fine, but the item is unbalanced compared to similar items. Screw your game up as much as you want. I don't care, but don't say it follows the rules. Significant numbers of the items presented by WOTC have been priced using this formula from table 7-33. An an even greater number do not. To ignore this and to apply quadratic scaling to these calculated prices when making similar items, The items are not similar. That is your first mistake. when you know full well that the base formula that they are derived from is not quadratic, is churlish and uncharitable to those who cannot see through the fallacies in your argument. Perhaps you should read the whole thread. It is not just my argument, but the general consensus of the thread. Everyone else bowed out because they couldn't deal with the stubborn stupidity.
Knightblde 06-09-07, 01:28 PM	What about my statement that in 3.0 it was double your speed (30) feet and rather than change the price, they changed the speed? Does this not give merit to the fact that the designers feel it is a very powerful item? Also what about the argument that a Belt of Reduce Person is printed at 20,000 gp? Does this not give merit to the fact that no matter what your formula is you will not come up with what the game designers feel is a correct price for this level 1 spell? Again, based on my first paragraph and my experiences with it in 3.0 games years ago, my table has decided to stick to the current 3.5 DMG description and not make any items that will copy this effect. Wands, potions and the like are fine, but any continous items are out. For the sake of your game (again, I played with the item in 3.0) I suggest you do the same. Happy Gaming!
TimelordSimone 06-09-07, 01:51 PM	Four times the price for three times the base effect, hardly unbalanced. That's approximately a quarter of the wealth of a 10th level PC. By that logic: a +3 sword would cost 8,000gp. (RAW price: 18,000gp) a +6 Cloak of Charisma would cost 16,000gp. (RAW price: 36,000gp) +3 bracers of armour would cost 4,000gp. (RAW price: 9,000gp) I mean, let's just look at a ring of Swimming, and a Ring of Swimming, Improved. Ring of Swimming: +5 competence bonus to swim checks, 2,500gp Ring of Swimming, Improved: +10 competence bonus to swim checks, 10,000gp Four times the price for two times the base effect. To summarize: Yes. It is unbalanced.
gotbrain 06-09-07, 02:29 PM	Add me to the list that agrees with calvinNhobbes. The formulas he's using are logical, clear and easy to follow. I don't see why this is still an issue.
Pentar 06-09-07, 02:59 PM	Because I'm obsessive I went back and checked. At least 9 people have the same view as calvinNhobbes (not including him or myself) and at most 4 people agree with you (not including yourself) So your comment was grossly inaccurate. ROFLMAO! Nice one :) I just had to check out how a set of crappy boots could generate a 4 page thread. No one likes boots. Sandals for all!
Anguish2 06-09-07, 07:04 PM	I am absolutely astounded that the Wiz_Os have clearly failed their spot checks regarding this thread. <Grin> If I may throw my 2cp in to summarize what I've had the sickening misfortune to just read, this is my summary to date: zzakk2to2 essentially wanted an item that grants a +30 enhancement bonus to speed, and he wanted it very cheaply. That was the viewpoint from which he originated. Thereafter, barring any interpersonal difficulties, many others arrived to interpret the complex item-pricing guidelines and the item in question was found to be a} more than zzakk2to2 thought, b} more than that, c} even more than that, and d} still more. End result is that the item should realistically cost anywhere from 18kgp to 73kgp depending on interpretation of the guidelines. It gets better. MiC introduces the idea that many items are overpriced because people prefer not to buy them and instead purchase traditional stat-boosters. I suggest looking at it this way: a monk gets a +30 enhancement bonus to speed at 9th level. This is the earliest a normal character gets an always-on +30 enhancement to speed. If I were DMing, I'd probably take that into consideration and price my item (or simply make the item available) such that it is reasonably purchasable to a character around 8th-10th level. A 9th-level character is due to have 36kgp, of which when we design a character, we expect no single magic item to be worth more than half of the character wealth. By this logic... an always-on item that grants +30 enhancement to speed should be priced out somewhere in the ballpark of 18kgp and at that value is unlikely to unbalance the game. Less expensive is likely making the item available too early, and more expensive likely makes the item unattractive to potential users.
calvinNhobbes 06-09-07, 07:53 PM	Anguish2, That is a very nice assessment, both of the thread ;) ,and the costing of items (although the 73,000gp estimate had a math error in it, so I think the general consensus was 18,000-27,000gp). Although I'd like to say that items that grant class related abilities should usually be priced on the higher side of things. They tend to require significant commitment to the class and hence are more powerful. I mean, you wouldn't think an item that grants the spellcasting of a 9th level wizard for 36,000gp to be anything close to balanced, would you?
Anguish2 06-10-07, 10:12 AM	Anguish2, That is a very nice assessment, both of the thread ;) ,and the costing of items (although the 73,000gp estimate had a math error in it, so I think the general consensus was 18,000-27,000gp). Although I'd like to say that items that grant class related abilities should usually be priced on the higher side of things. They tend to require significant commitment to the class and hence are more powerful. I mean, you wouldn't think an item that grants the spellcasting of a 9th level wizard for 36,000gp to be anything close to balanced, would you? You raise a decent point. I don't think (and those three words very clearly indicate this is opinion, not rules-based truth) that it applies in the case of this particular item though. The speed increase is a minor part of what constitutes a monk. Movement bonuses aren't terribly hard to come by, and don't directly impact foes. They're useful as heck, but if a player had move 90 at 1st level, it wouldn't dramatically alter most fights. (Except in the case of "I run away from the really dangerous thing!") Heck, the PHB2 alternate Druid class ability grants them a predator shape at will as a swift action and your base land speed hits 50. At 1st. Admittedly, you can't shift to predator, move 50, then shift back to perform a standard action. Still... my point is that a Barbarian1/Druid1 can get move 60 at 2nd level. WotC is clearly not afraid of having players move around. That being said, yes, a ring of flurry of blows for instance should be priced fairly high.
crizhII 06-10-07, 10:36 AM	That being said, yes, a ring of flurry of blows for instance should be priced fairly high. Perhaps in the ball-park of a Ring of Evasion?
Mysteria 06-10-07, 01:10 PM	MIC p.131 Sandals of Sprinting. :schemes:
Anguish2 06-10-07, 01:35 PM	Perhaps in the ball-park of a Ring of Evasion? Honestly, the DM in me would probably create gauntlets of flurrying instead of the ring I named off the top of my head. I'd probably price them a lot lower than the ring of evasion as well. I'd probably price it so that characters around 4th-5th could reasonably get their hands on a pair, say around 5kgp. I'd phrase it that it grants you a flurry when using monk weapons only, at the base -2/-2 progression. No Improved Unarmed Strike feat, no improved damage dice. Just a flurry, which works out to be Two-Weapon Fighting as it happens, only with limited weapon choice. Evasion as a class feature is really useful, even it's only a 2nd-level class feature. That being said, if I were designing the ring of evasion, I'd probably price it lower than the DMG does. Waiting until character level 10 to pick that up seems a bit steep.
TygerTyger 06-11-07, 08:32 AM	From the SRD: Its called Rule One of pricing magic items.... Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values. Not sure why I bother posting that, as those of you who have decided that CNH is wrong are obviously not reading that anyway, but there you have it. There is your source for the pricing of the item. There is the "rule" that you asked for. The chart that appears directly above that quote in the SRD also shows that bonuses scale quadratically. I am unsure how to reproduce said chart, so I will leave it to you, if you care to, to find it in the SRD and read it. Perhaps for the first time. :) I'm no math wizard, heck, I can barely operate a calculator, but the guidelines in place seem to demonstrate that, of the options listed here, CNH's is by far the most accurate. If you want to do otherwise, great, go for it. But if you want to work within the spirit of the rules, then following his suggestions is the most correct route. If you want to stick with the RAW, in a perfectly literal sense, can I play in your game? I'd love to have a sword +20, an unarmored AC of 25 and an unlimited supply of healing, all by level 3. I think I can do it, using the literal interpretation of the rules that some posters want to stick to.
TimelordSimone 06-11-07, 10:42 AM	Should you feel the need to dispute that the equation governing continuous wondrous items is quadratic, even should you succeed in such proof you will still have to come up with some satisfactory explanation why that equation should not be used in favour of another equation that is no more valid as it is contained within exactly the same table. Why is one equation in table 7-33 less valid than the others? Okay then... All of the formulas that have anything to do with a bonus to something scale quadratically. That is why one equation is less valid than the others. I mean, if you used the continuous wondrous item formula to make a Sword of True Striking, it would be perfectly fair according to the table. But I'm sure we can all agree that it would be ridiculously powerful. And no, there is no formula on the table regarding speed. But, it seems pretty safe to assume that since every other enhancement bonus item scales quadratically, that this one would as well.
crizhII 06-11-07, 04:08 PM	An an even greater number do not. Right then. (apologies for minor errors) Of the other 183 Wondrous Items in the DMG at least 98 don't count either because they should use another formula (bracers of defence) or give some other undefinable benefit (periapt of undead turning) which leaves 85 items. I have catagorized them as follows. Spot on - Right on the money according to table 7-33 or within about 5% (ie wings of flying) One Order - within a factor of 2 of Spot On. Most of these are cheaper. One Order Restricted - As above but have weird charges (boots of speed) or only use a very small facet of the listed spell. Exactly Half - either by design or error on the Authors part. Hard to Tell Exactly Quarter - as above Much cheaper - Wildly cheaper than the calculated price for no apparent reason. Much cheaper restricted - as above but have weirdness that justifies it. Very Expensive - More than double formula price. Very Expensive Odd - as above but have alterations that clearly justify increase. Those numbers in full... Spot On - 24 One Order - 11 OO Restricted - 18 Exactly Half - 2 Quarter -2 Much Cheaper - 7 MC Restricted - 15 Very Expensive - 5 VE Odd - 1 The largest single group there, you might notice, are items that have clearly been calculated using the command/continuous/use activated formulae in table 7-33. I personally would be tempted to lump everything except the Expensive into one group as everything else has clearly had it's price based on the formula and then had it adjusted downwards either because it was a weak effect (say with little impact on combat) or because it had weird charges limitations the table doesn't cover or has the power of the spell in question strait-jacketed by the nature of the item (mirror of opposition). All of the 6 (hahahahahahahaha) items that are more expensive are within a factor of 4 and have good reasons. Very powerful (Iron Flask) or uprated effect (Drums of Panic). Only 1 item, Eyes of Charming completely resists any attempt to compare it to the formula. I can only assume the designer was wasted on acid that day or had just read The Dice Man and fancied a laugh. So in conclusion on examining cNh's unsupported 'statement of fact' we find that of 85 items only 1 could be said to support it. Eyes of Charming have been priced with no reference to the continuous/use activated formula in table 7-33. A further 5 items partially support his position. All are extremely expensive for the effect they generate, although all do generate extremely unbalancing effects (Cloak of Displacement). However none of these items have a delta from the formula price of the magnitude ( 7 times) cNh has suggested for Boots of Expeditious Retreat. Of the remaining 79 items 55 partially support the theory that WoTC used the formula in making these items. Some strongly, some not so much but all cost less than the calculated price (an extremely strong indicator statistically) and how much less seems strongly linked to how much the items power is restricted or just plain weak. And the final 24 are all bang on the money. Definitely calculated using the formula in question. Of 85 items, that cNh claimed the majority of did not use the formula, 24 do, 55 probably do, 5 may not and 1 doesn't. I shan't hold my breath for a reasoned response. It's been my experience in discusions like this that when one side holds a series of dogmatic opinions that they simply repeat them over and over and over and over and over..... .... and if that doesn't work and reasoned argument is presented that comprehensively demolishes their position they slink off never to be heard from again. They might try to 'last word' with further repetition of their 'there's no point', 'brick wall', 'why argue, you've made your mind up', 'won't listen to reason' mantra but leave they will and present any reasoned counter-argument they won't. The certainly won't be willing to change their position. They will bide their time and pounce on some other unsuspecting fool with their dogmatic tripe at a later date. I'll be waiting too. Watching for them and their self-serving ego stroking with my trusty +5 Holy Avenger of CutN'Paste straining to smack down their opinionated guff. (if you geniunely believe cNh's opinion is corrected and are open to debate then I ain't talking about you. You may prove me wrong, which I will be more than happy to admit if it happens.)
crizhII 06-11-07, 04:55 PM	Dude, you have way too much time on your hands. So my players tell me.. (along with other gems, like 'Dragons can't wear barding!...')
Pentar 06-11-07, 04:56 PM	So my players tell me.. (along with other gems, like 'Dragons can't wear barding!...') ROFLMAO!! That's a good one. Dragons in Barding... Hey, if players can stack Armour and Natural Armour bonuses, why can't dragons? :D
calvinNhobbes 06-11-07, 04:57 PM	I love it! In his effort to "prove" me wrong, he has only proven my statement correct! Of the 85 items he considers "valid" for the spell level x caster level x 2000gp formula, only 24 follow it! 61 > 24! I win!:D
calvinNhobbes 06-11-07, 05:02 PM	Not big on reading comprehension round where you live then? :D That was 24 support my position, 60 don't definitively one way or the other and 1 supports yours. 1 < 24 ! You lose... :rolleyes: Please quote the post where I say ALL magic items should be priced MORE expensive than the formulas.
Pentar 06-11-07, 05:12 PM	You said the majority of [relevant] wondrous items were not calculated using the continuous item formula. You were wrong. I'm sorry, but maybe my math is bad... If 24 support your side... And CalvinNHobbes said that the majority (based on your above quote) do not support the continuous item formula (spell level x caster level x 2000??) then ... wouldn't he.... be right? Out of the 85, 24 supports this. The remaining do not? Regardless of HOW they were calculated (since that's not the issue), by technicality, what he says is correct. The majority do not use that formula - they may use some other, totally bizarre or drug induced formula, but it's not that one. I dunno. Price items however you want. If a Longsword of True Strike is 2000gp in your game world, so be it!! Maybe players only earn 15 silver pieces per completed adventure... that would balances things, wouldn't it? :D
crizhII 06-11-07, 05:19 PM	Exactly. 61 is a majority of 85. How? 61>24 I was right! :D In addition, I bet you screwed up and included command activated items in there as well and items with limited uses per day. Those formulas work fairly well, just not the continuous item formulas. And if 61 items definitively were not based on the formula I would agree but 60 of them are not definitive. I was being kind in this analysis. Of those 60 all of them support my position more than they support yours. I have discounted them because they are open to argument and debate. The 24 are not. 24 > 1 QED. Of course I have included command actived, use activated and charged items. The formulas are almost identical. Or are you telling me that your alright with an unlimited, command activated, CL1 item of True Strke at 1800gp?
crizhII 06-11-07, 05:25 PM	I'm sorry, but maybe my math is bad... If 24 support your side... And CalvinNHobbes said that the majority (based on your above quote) do not support the continuous item formula (spell level x caster level x 2000??) then ... wouldn't he.... be right? Out of the 85, 24 supports this. The remaining do not? Regardless of HOW they were calculated (since that's not the issue), by technicality, what he says is correct. The majority do not use that formula - they may use some other, totally bizarre or drug induced formula, but it's not that one. I dunno. Price items however you want. If a Longsword of True Strike is 2000gp in your game world, so be it!! Maybe players only earn 15 silver pieces per completed adventure... that would balances things, wouldn't it? :D Conversely only 1 can be shown to have not been calculated with the formula by the method I originally specified and that cNh flat denied was true. 84 to 1. Seems pretty darn conclusive to me.
Pentar 06-11-07, 05:57 PM	Conversely only 1 can be shown to have not been calculated with the formula by the method I originally specified and that cNh flat denied was true. 84 to 1. Seems pretty darn conclusive to me. I'm afraid I have to agree with CnH. The formula as indicated, spell level x caster level x2000gp, has only 2 variable numbers: Spell Level and Caster Level. That being the case, only those two values can shift. If 61 items are some form of spell level x caster level x2000gp + K, where K is any randomly determined constant, that is not the same formula. Wow, this is a ridiculous debate to begin with. Who the hell cares?! I don't even like the Boots of Springing and Striding.
Anguish2 06-11-07, 06:27 PM	I am saddened beyond the point of tears (of blood) to discover that much like a nasty red rash that only temporarily stopped itching, this thread hasn't gone away. boots of move 30 faster than normal are worth 9,000gp because that's what I'll get when I sell them off at the nearest town so I can afford to buy a lifetime's supply of Anachronistic Aspirin.
calvinNhobbes 06-11-07, 07:37 PM	Reading crizhII's posts reminds of a quote from the movie Billy Madison Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
crizhII 06-11-07, 07:38 PM	Where's my brick wall? Ah there it is! :banghead: EDIT: I wonder how long you will continue to make an ass of yourself on these forums. You really are losing more and more credibility with every post.:( You have quoted the DMG saying that prices should be based upon existing items and then repeatedly asserted that this means your method of calculation is the only acceptable method of adjusting prices. X = the rule in the DMG. Y = your method of calculation being the only way to do it that is acceptable. Connect X and Y. I've asked you to do this dozens of times. You have failed to endeavour to do so even once. I neither have nor need credibility. You clearly need it but unfortunately until you are able to connect X and Y you will never have any.
calvinNhobbes 06-11-07, 07:42 PM	X = the rule in the DMG. Y = your method of calculation being the only way to do it that is acceptable. Connect X and Y. I've asked you to do this dozens of times. You have failed to endeavour to do so even once. I neither have nor need credibility. You clearly need it but unfortunately until you are able to connect X and Y you will never have any. :banghead:
crizhII 06-11-07, 08:15 PM	They might try to 'last word' with further repetition of their 'there's no point', 'brick wall', 'why argue, you've made your mind up', 'won't listen to reason' mantra but leave they will and present any reasoned counter-argument they won't. Quod erat demonstrandum.
calvinNhobbes 06-11-07, 08:41 PM	They might try to 'last word' with further repetition of their 'there's no point', 'brick wall', 'why argue, you've made your mind up', 'won't listen to reason' mantra but leave they will and present any reasoned counter-argument they won't. Quod erat demonstrandum. :looloo: Get some friends dude... seriously
Neutronium_Dragon 06-11-07, 08:56 PM	The 2000/8000/18000 GP market price for +10/+20/+30 land speed enhancement has already been done in previous threads on the subject. That's the answer. It's not just a question of the formulas, but how you use them. The spell-based formulas, if they're used at all, are applicable when you're dealing with something that can't be described as a bonus of some sort. Armor, Deflection, Luck, and so on all work that way, and thus use the bonus ^ 2 scale, rather than using a caster level x spell level-derived value. Bonuses to movement speed fall into the first category. You use the base value ^ 2. In the case of land speed, a 10' enhancement is effectively one point of bonus (as can be derived from the boots), so ( 3 ^ 2 ) = 9 x 2000 = 18000 is what you get for a 30' one. As it happens, though, there *is* a magical item based on Expeditious Retreat: Sandals of Sprinting in the Magic Item Compendium. For 2300 GP, these do give a +30 Enhancement bonus to your movement rate - for one round, three times per day.
TygerTyger 06-11-07, 09:29 PM	Exactly Neutronium, as both Mysteria and I pointed out previously. Folks, and in particular crizhII, its over. By your own math crizhII, you've demonstrated CnH's point. Please, by all that is holy, let it go. He's right. You're wrong. You even demonstrated that yourself in the math that you did! Just let it go. Run it however you want in your game, but for people who come here asking advice on the way the game was obviously intended to run... let those who actually know what they are talking about help them. OK?
Pentar 06-11-07, 10:14 PM	So... what's the cost of a Ring of the Ram? Cuz I'm having trouble finding "The Ram" spell... *runs* *ducks* *Hides In Plain Sight*
WizO_Cat 06-11-07, 11:20 PM	Wow! Way too much flaming in this thread. For all of those that decided to make your post focused on other guest, consider this your fair warning: the next time you do it, you're going to get an Official Warn. Keep the posts on the subject of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise it is considered Baiting which is against the Code of Conduct.