Bracers of Armor enhancement? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bracers of Armor enhancement? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talmar
03-08-04, 07:37 AM I have a character who wishes to add the Heavy Fortification armor enhancement to Bracers of Armor +8.

This is a 3.0 game.

The Heavy Fortification enhancement is a +5 enhancement but I know bracers are a wonderous item.

What would be the cost to do this?
Would this be considered an epic item?

I know both Craft Wonderous Item and Craft Arms and Armor would be needed. Can two casters, each with one of these feats perform this upgrade?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks
dantedarkstar
03-08-04, 08:10 AM Well, if you allow bracers to be enchanted like an armor, then it can indeed be done.

The cost is about 1626000gp (yes, 1 million, 626 thousands gold pieces), and requires Craft Epic Wondorous Items and Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor to perform.

You do realize you get effective +13 bracers, which is quite an epic item (above +8, bracers of armor are epic items) ? That's why the ridiculous cost (for anyone below HIGH level).
Heron_Marked_Blade
03-08-04, 08:51 AM Yes, you can do that, but they would be considered Epic items. He could add Heavy Fortification to Bracers of Armor +5 and be okay, but +8 takes it Epic.

Two casters, each with one of the feats, could combine their efforts and create the bracers.
Krelios
03-08-04, 08:56 AM Yes, you can do that, but they would be considered Epic items. He could add Heavy Fortification to Bracers of Armor +5 and be okay, but +8 takes it Epic.

Well, it doesn't work that way normally. Bracers of Armor +8 are in the DMG. However, if you decide to allow them to be enchanted like normal armor, I'd agree that the normal armor restriction (+5 pre-epic) should be enforced.

So if he wants to put any of the armor enchantments on them (in this case, Heavy Fortification), you should tell him that he can do it now, and reduce the armor bonus to +5 (still the equivalent of 200,000gp armor enchantment in the "wrong slot" so it would cost 300,000gp and need the Craft Magic Arms and Armor AND the Craft Wonderous Item feats), or he can wait until 21st (and still need the same feats plus whatever epic equivalents he needs).
Nylkran
03-08-04, 09:05 AM Actually the Equipement book, says that you can do this pre-Epic a +8 Bracers of Armor with Heavy Fortification, they cost around 165,000 gp, (i don't own the book but I have seen it), it's actually quite balance because a +5 Full-Plate of Heavy Fortification is only around 110,000gp which is still 5 more AC than the bracers, at a lower price, for a little bit more you can have DR 3/-- or and extra +2 to your AC with Dex, which the bracers cannot replicate.
Heron_Marked_Blade
03-08-04, 09:17 AM Nylkran is correct. Bracers of Armor (in 3.0) can add special abilities up to +13 (armor bonus can't ever go over +8) without being considered Epic.

Check out the Arms & Equipment Guide, p. 130, for more specifics.
dantedarkstar
03-08-04, 12:39 PM Whatever. I wouldn't allow it as GM. Bracers of Armor are good enough without such a boost of being +13 as nonepic.
kreynolds
03-08-04, 01:24 PM Bracers of Armor are great, but not that great. They don't stack with armor, so I'm not sure what it is exactly that makes them so unbalancing if you put fortification on them. After all, you can get a bigger AC boost by actually wearing armor than you can by wearing bracers of armor (+5 full plate vs BoA +8), not to mention that you're up that special creek without a paddle if all you have are bracers of armor and you're exposed to a successful dispel magic, mord's disjunction, or AMF.
Tony Vargas
03-08-04, 01:33 PM Well, one of the advantages of getting to wear armor is nifty armor enchantments, including fortification (conversely, one of the disadvantages of having class abilities that generally preclude armor is not beign able to avail yourself of said enchantments) - so, if you allow fortification to be put on bracers (or clothes or amulets or whatever), you're basicly giving a little boost to the monks and arcanists out there... at the price of a bit of the uniqueness of the heavy-armored types.

Personally, I like to take it in the other direction, and tie the degree of fortification to the type of armor - only allowing Heavy Fortification on heavy armor: lets the high-level fighters, clerics & pallys feel like they're actually getting something out of still waddling about in thier full plate.
d_nychus
03-08-04, 01:34 PM Originally posted by dantedarkstar
Whatever. I wouldn't allow it as GM. Bracers of Armor are good enough without such a boost of being +13 as nonepic.

You're also making a poor comparison. With magical armor, +10 is clearly the breaking point for Epic. However, +10 does not translate into wondrous items that way.

At its most powerful, BoD only equate a NORMAL suit of fullplate, without a few important benefits such as no arcane spell failure or movment penalties. This means that non-epic bracers cannot provide an AC bonus above what normal armor can do.

However, when you apply magic to normal armor, you go above and beyond what it normally can do, making it have an AC bonus of up to +13, without adding other enhancements, and +18 WITH adding other enhancements.

By your logic, wouldn't a fullplate +3 be Epic? It DOES add +11 to one's AC.
d_nychus
03-08-04, 01:37 PM Originally posted by Tony Vargas

Personally, I like to take it in the other direction, and tie the degree of fortification to the type of armor - only allowing Heavy Fortification on heavy armor: lets the high-level fighters, clerics & pallys feel like they're actually getting something out of still waddling about in thier full plate.

That's a variant I have actually considered, ever since running a game with a paranoid rogue wearing a suit of leather with heavy fortification. Not that it was unbalancing in the least, just that it felt....odd.
kreynolds
03-08-04, 01:40 PM Originally posted by Tony Vargas
Well, one of the advantages of getting to wear armor is nifty armor enchantments...

Don't forget about being able to keep that nifty armor bonus when magic is erratic or unavailable. I get your viewpoint, but don't think that's enough of a reason.
Tony Vargas
03-08-04, 03:02 PM Well, and conversely, don't forget losing all that comforting armor bonus vs touch attacks, incorporeal attacks, and brilliant energy weapons...

I think that, in general, armor isn't all it's cracked up to be, and could use a teeny bit of help here or there. Especially at higher levels, and, especially non-mithral armor... the fortification idea is just a minor tweak in that direction.
kreynolds
03-08-04, 03:17 PM In my experience, high level characters have long ditched heavy armor for more protective and much more costly medium and light armor, if they haven't just skipped to light- or no armor already. Basically, the higher level characters get, the less and less I see armor and start seeing really frickin' expensive alternatives taking armor's place.

It's like seeing magical breastplates replaced by mithral shirts, or even more drastic, by magical shirts, not to mention further augmented by magic items that add dodge bonuses, luck bonuses, deflection bonuses, sacred bonuses, etc, etc, etc.

Besides, in a side-by-side comparison, you still can't beat magical armor with a magical shield. After all, there's no such thing as a pair of nonepic bracers that net you a total bonus of +20 to AC (+5 full plate and +5 heavy shield). Now for the money side; 50K gets you +20 to AC via full plate and a heavy shield. It takes 64K to get you +8 to AC with bracers.

I still don't see the problem.
Talmar
03-08-04, 03:28 PM Well, thank you all for your input. I'll be reading up on the Arms and Equipment Guide tonight to see what it says about enchancing items.

I'll also print this out before next week and review it with the other DM and we'll come up with something for the PC.
Tony Vargas
03-08-04, 03:59 PM Originally posted by kreynolds
In my experience, high level characters have long ditched heavy armor for more protective and much more costly medium and light armor, if they haven't just skipped to light- or no armor already. ....

Bingo.

Only three classes (Cleric, Fighter, Pally) start with heavy armor proficiency, and the other classes are 'balanced' to some extent by losing class abilities when wearing the wrong kind of armor -Barbarian (movement), Bard(ASF), Druid(metal), Monk(big time), Ranger(TWF/archery), Rogue(evasion, skills), Sorcerer/Wizard(ASF).

You'd think that heavy armor is supposed to be well worth wearing, given that it takes three feats, and that class abilities are balanced by being incompatible with it. Yet, it goes the way of the dodo.
kreynolds
03-08-04, 04:06 PM Originally posted by Tony Vargas
You'd think that heavy armor is supposed to be well worth wearing, given that it takes three feats, and that class abilities are balanced by being incompatible with it. Yet, it goes the way of the dodo.

But only because you can get better equipment at high level, and for little other reason. So, like I said, I don't think this is a problem with armor, i.e. armor isn't "broken" from the get-go at 1st-level. It's just that you can eventually find better stuff.

With that said, it's also interesting to me that the only people I've ever seen stick with heavy armor at high level are those that play tried-and-true "tanks". But, tanks aren't very prevalent in my group. Seems like most of us prefer to play the agile and nimble type.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talmar 03-08-04, 07:37 AM	I have a character who wishes to add the Heavy Fortification armor enhancement to Bracers of Armor +8. This is a 3.0 game. The Heavy Fortification enhancement is a +5 enhancement but I know bracers are a wonderous item. What would be the cost to do this? Would this be considered an epic item? I know both Craft Wonderous Item and Craft Arms and Armor would be needed. Can two casters, each with one of these feats perform this upgrade? Any help appreciated. Thanks
dantedarkstar 03-08-04, 08:10 AM	Well, if you allow bracers to be enchanted like an armor, then it can indeed be done. The cost is about 1626000gp (yes, 1 million, 626 thousands gold pieces), and requires Craft Epic Wondorous Items and Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor to perform. You do realize you get effective +13 bracers, which is quite an epic item (above +8, bracers of armor are epic items) ? That's why the ridiculous cost (for anyone below HIGH level).
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-08-04, 08:51 AM	Yes, you can do that, but they would be considered Epic items. He could add Heavy Fortification to Bracers of Armor +5 and be okay, but +8 takes it Epic. Two casters, each with one of the feats, could combine their efforts and create the bracers.
Krelios 03-08-04, 08:56 AM	Yes, you can do that, but they would be considered Epic items. He could add Heavy Fortification to Bracers of Armor +5 and be okay, but +8 takes it Epic. Well, it doesn't work that way normally. Bracers of Armor +8 are in the DMG. However, if you decide to allow them to be enchanted like normal armor, I'd agree that the normal armor restriction (+5 pre-epic) should be enforced. So if he wants to put any of the armor enchantments on them (in this case, Heavy Fortification), you should tell him that he can do it now, and reduce the armor bonus to +5 (still the equivalent of 200,000gp armor enchantment in the "wrong slot" so it would cost 300,000gp and need the Craft Magic Arms and Armor AND the Craft Wonderous Item feats), or he can wait until 21st (and still need the same feats plus whatever epic equivalents he needs).
Nylkran 03-08-04, 09:05 AM	Actually the Equipement book, says that you can do this pre-Epic a +8 Bracers of Armor with Heavy Fortification, they cost around 165,000 gp, (i don't own the book but I have seen it), it's actually quite balance because a +5 Full-Plate of Heavy Fortification is only around 110,000gp which is still 5 more AC than the bracers, at a lower price, for a little bit more you can have DR 3/-- or and extra +2 to your AC with Dex, which the bracers cannot replicate.
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-08-04, 09:17 AM	Nylkran is correct. Bracers of Armor (in 3.0) can add special abilities up to +13 (armor bonus can't ever go over +8) without being considered Epic. Check out the Arms & Equipment Guide, p. 130, for more specifics.
dantedarkstar 03-08-04, 12:39 PM	Whatever. I wouldn't allow it as GM. Bracers of Armor are good enough without such a boost of being +13 as nonepic.
kreynolds 03-08-04, 01:24 PM	Bracers of Armor are great, but not that great. They don't stack with armor, so I'm not sure what it is exactly that makes them so unbalancing if you put fortification on them. After all, you can get a bigger AC boost by actually wearing armor than you can by wearing bracers of armor (+5 full plate vs BoA +8), not to mention that you're up that special creek without a paddle if all you have are bracers of armor and you're exposed to a successful dispel magic, mord's disjunction, or AMF.
Tony Vargas 03-08-04, 01:33 PM	Well, one of the advantages of getting to wear armor is nifty armor enchantments, including fortification (conversely, one of the disadvantages of having class abilities that generally preclude armor is not beign able to avail yourself of said enchantments) - so, if you allow fortification to be put on bracers (or clothes or amulets or whatever), you're basicly giving a little boost to the monks and arcanists out there... at the price of a bit of the uniqueness of the heavy-armored types. Personally, I like to take it in the other direction, and tie the degree of fortification to the type of armor - only allowing Heavy Fortification on heavy armor: lets the high-level fighters, clerics & pallys feel like they're actually getting something out of still waddling about in thier full plate.
d_nychus 03-08-04, 01:34 PM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar Whatever. I wouldn't allow it as GM. Bracers of Armor are good enough without such a boost of being +13 as nonepic. You're also making a poor comparison. With magical armor, +10 is clearly the breaking point for Epic. However, +10 does not translate into wondrous items that way. At its most powerful, BoD only equate a NORMAL suit of fullplate, without a few important benefits such as no arcane spell failure or movment penalties. This means that non-epic bracers cannot provide an AC bonus above what normal armor can do. However, when you apply magic to normal armor, you go above and beyond what it normally can do, making it have an AC bonus of up to +13, without adding other enhancements, and +18 WITH adding other enhancements. By your logic, wouldn't a fullplate +3 be Epic? It DOES add +11 to one's AC.
d_nychus 03-08-04, 01:37 PM	Originally posted by Tony Vargas Personally, I like to take it in the other direction, and tie the degree of fortification to the type of armor - only allowing Heavy Fortification on heavy armor: lets the high-level fighters, clerics & pallys feel like they're actually getting something out of still waddling about in thier full plate. That's a variant I have actually considered, ever since running a game with a paranoid rogue wearing a suit of leather with heavy fortification. Not that it was unbalancing in the least, just that it felt....odd.
kreynolds 03-08-04, 01:40 PM	Originally posted by Tony Vargas Well, one of the advantages of getting to wear armor is nifty armor enchantments... Don't forget about being able to keep that nifty armor bonus when magic is erratic or unavailable. I get your viewpoint, but don't think that's enough of a reason.
Tony Vargas 03-08-04, 03:02 PM	Well, and conversely, don't forget losing all that comforting armor bonus vs touch attacks, incorporeal attacks, and brilliant energy weapons... I think that, in general, armor isn't all it's cracked up to be, and could use a teeny bit of help here or there. Especially at higher levels, and, especially non-mithral armor... the fortification idea is just a minor tweak in that direction.
kreynolds 03-08-04, 03:17 PM	In my experience, high level characters have long ditched heavy armor for more protective and much more costly medium and light armor, if they haven't just skipped to light- or no armor already. Basically, the higher level characters get, the less and less I see armor and start seeing really frickin' expensive alternatives taking armor's place. It's like seeing magical breastplates replaced by mithral shirts, or even more drastic, by magical shirts, not to mention further augmented by magic items that add dodge bonuses, luck bonuses, deflection bonuses, sacred bonuses, etc, etc, etc. Besides, in a side-by-side comparison, you still can't beat magical armor with a magical shield. After all, there's no such thing as a pair of nonepic bracers that net you a total bonus of +20 to AC (+5 full plate and +5 heavy shield). Now for the money side; 50K gets you +20 to AC via full plate and a heavy shield. It takes 64K to get you +8 to AC with bracers. I still don't see the problem.
Talmar 03-08-04, 03:28 PM	Well, thank you all for your input. I'll be reading up on the Arms and Equipment Guide tonight to see what it says about enchancing items. I'll also print this out before next week and review it with the other DM and we'll come up with something for the PC.
Tony Vargas 03-08-04, 03:59 PM	Originally posted by kreynolds In my experience, high level characters have long ditched heavy armor for more protective and much more costly medium and light armor, if they haven't just skipped to light- or no armor already. .... Bingo. Only three classes (Cleric, Fighter, Pally) start with heavy armor proficiency, and the other classes are 'balanced' to some extent by losing class abilities when wearing the wrong kind of armor -Barbarian (movement), Bard(ASF), Druid(metal), Monk(big time), Ranger(TWF/archery), Rogue(evasion, skills), Sorcerer/Wizard(ASF). You'd think that heavy armor is supposed to be well worth wearing, given that it takes three feats, and that class abilities are balanced by being incompatible with it. Yet, it goes the way of the dodo.
kreynolds 03-08-04, 04:06 PM	Originally posted by Tony Vargas You'd think that heavy armor is supposed to be well worth wearing, given that it takes three feats, and that class abilities are balanced by being incompatible with it. Yet, it goes the way of the dodo. But only because you can get better equipment at high level, and for little other reason. So, like I said, I don't think this is a problem with armor, i.e. armor isn't "broken" from the get-go at 1st-level. It's just that you can eventually find better stuff. With that said, it's also interesting to me that the only people I've ever seen stick with heavy armor at high level are those that play tried-and-true "tanks". But, tanks aren't very prevalent in my group. Seems like most of us prefer to play the agile and nimble type.