Bracers of Divine Favor?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bracers of Divine Favor?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Femur Toothpick
02-08-04, 12:41 AM Has this been done before -- and -- is this doable?

Putting a +1 to +6 luck bonus to attack & damage is something that most characters would want. The only ones with access to it now are a few divine casters, and the smart ones cast it Persistant.

By comparing the spell description to the formula in the DMG, a couple problems occur. First, what pricing catagory should this fall into? Second, the duration is one minute. The durations in the formula all pertain to durations like 1rnd/level, 1min/level, etc. Wouldn't you just multiply it based on the 1min/level duration? Here are a few ways I calculated it.

Method 1: Uses the Spell Effect catagory for a continuous item.
[Spell-level x caster-level x 2000 x 2 (for 1 min duration)]
+1 - 4000 - caster level 1
+2 - 24,000 - CL 6
+3 - 36,000 - CL 9
+4 - 48,000 - CL 12
+5 - 60,000 - CL 15
+6 - 72,000 - CL 18
***TOO CHEAP***

Method 2: I based it on other luck bonus pricing, which is at a 2000/2500 ratio for AC and 1000/2000 ratio for saves. I'll pick the higher one, 200%. The closest catagory I could come up with to increasing attack & damage bonuses is the weapon enhancement catagory. Using this as a base we get this pricing:
(Bonus squared x 4000 x 2) **same as Save luck bonus**
**EDITED - I calculated this wrong the first time**
+1 - 8000
+2 - 32,000
+3 - 73,000
+4 - 128,000
+5 - 200,000
+6 - epic
***THIS SEEMS HIGH***
Method 2.5: ***Same as AC luck bonus***
(Bonus squared x 2500 x 2)
+1 - 5000
+2 - 20,000
+3 - 45,000
+4 - 80,000
+5 - 125,000
+6 - 180,000
***THIS SEEMS ABOUT RIGHT, OR A LITTLE LOW***

Method 3: This one uses the Pale Green Ioun Stone as a base. Competance bonuses are comparable to luck bonuses in pricing. For 30,000 gp you get 4 bonuses (attack, saves, skills, ability checks) and a slotless item. Breaking this down, you would pay 3750 per +1 bonus in a slotted item. The Luck Stone comes out to 3,333 per plus, but I went with the higher. So here's how I roled this out:
(Bonus squared x 3750 x 2)
+1 - 7500
+2 - 30,000
+3 - 67,500
+4 - 120,000
+5 - 187,500
+6 - epic
***EXPENSIVE, BUT COULD BE OK***

Method 4: The last method takes into account the 1 min duration. Could you make it work on command, but each use only lasts one minute? This would be similar to how a ring of invisibility works. The pricing strucure of Method 1 fits this type of item better than the others since it's a Use-Activated Spell-Effect item.

Do any of these sound feasable? Am I opening up a huge can of worms here? Right now, I'm playing a character in our campaign and this would be a very useful item. But we switch off DMs and I'd hate to have to deny the item later when I'm asking for now. What do you think?

-------------------
Dauntless
02-08-04, 01:25 AM Considering the Luckstone (unslotted, gives +1 luck bonus to saves, skill checks, and saving throws) is 10,000 gp, that should give you a good idea of how much a luck bonus is worth. Luck bonuses stack with just about EVERYTHING else, which is why they are more expensive.

In the charts in Tome and Blood, a luck bonus is priced at (bonus squared) x 2500. Now considering you have two different luck bonuses (one for attack and one for damage), your second ability would be at 75% cost.

So a +1 luck bonus to attack and damage would probably be around [(1^2) x 2500] + .75[(1^2) x 2500] = 4375

Lets do out the math!

+1 : 4,375
+2 : 17,500
+3 : 39,375
+4 : 70,000
+5 : 109,375

This prices it out very close to what you did for method 2, however I'd be inclined to round the numbers up a bit (5k, 20k, 45k, 75k, 120k or so) simply because there are so FEW sources of luck bonuses in the game.
da chicken
02-08-04, 05:07 AM First, you should never use spell level x caster level x 2000 method unless you absolutely have to. Even then, it should be for items that don't grant bonuses covered by other effects.

Divine favor grants two bonuses. One to attack, and one to damage. You have to pay for both just like you do for magic weapons (that's why they cost exactly double magic armor costs).

Luck bonuses are of the formula bonus * bonus * 2500.

You could apply the .75 modifier for the second bonus, but since magic weapons don't then neither should this.

Additionally, it's common practice to round up to a near value, if applicable.

The formula, then, is bonus * bonus * 2500 * 2.

So:

Bracers of martial skill +1:
1 * 1 * 2500 * 2 = 5,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +2:
2 * 2 * 2500 * 2 = 20,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +3:
3 * 3 * 2500 * 2 = 45,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +4:
4 * 4 * 2500 * 2 = 80,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +5:
5 * 5 * 2500 * 2 = 125,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +6:
6 * 6 * 2500 * 2 = 180,000 gp

I will say that you should look at Bracers of Archery. The greater version grants a +1 nonstandard bonus to damage and a +2 nonstandard bonus to hit. The item costs 25,000 gp.
TempestadiossA
02-08-04, 10:06 AM My master allowed me to get a Ring of Continuous Divine Favour (CL 18th) for 72,000gp (we used the SLxCLx2000x2 formula)...I think the price is really up to you.
Femur Toothpick
02-08-04, 10:35 AM Thanks everyone,

I looked at T&B at first to calculate this, but decided that the pricing had changed so much in 3.5 that I'd do better just sticking in the DMG. Notice the Luck Stone had changed from 10,000 to 20,000 GP in 3.5. This got confusing though since 3 bonuses in a slotless item added up to 20,000 and in the Ioun Stone 4 bonuses were 30,000.

• Luck Stone uses a base cost of 3333 per plus (luck bonus).
• Ioun Stone uses 3750 (comp. bonus).
• Bracers of Archery seem to have another formula (comp. bonus).
• Amulet of Mighty Fists is 3x the cost of weapon pricing (enhanc. bonus)

Bracers of Greater Archery are +2att/+1dam and are 25,000 and only apply to bows and are a slotted item. I'm not sure how to break those plusses down since they're uneven, but 20,000 or 17,000 for +2 luck on ALL attacks & damage is probably too low compaired to this.

I chose the higher cost of the Ioun Stone to base my Method 3 on and calculated it with 2 bonuses in a slotted item. This comes out with pricing higher than the the Amulet of MF and seems to fit in best with the other pricing. I'm leaning more toward this pricing.
Scion of Coldshard
02-08-04, 11:08 AM Originally posted by da chicken
Luck bonuses are of the formula bonus * bonus * 2500.

You could apply the .75 modifier for the second bonus, but since magic weapons don't then neither should this.

while the luck bonus does apply to two different things, the enhancement bonus (for flat +'s) provide way more benefit than just hit and damage. Lots more hardness and hp, penetration of dr (mainly only the first point matters, but the benefit is there), along with other special powers that arent just flat +'s.

The luck bonus to only hit and damage is a bit harder. Not only does it take up a slot, but the base is already way more expensive than magic weapons anyway.

I would say come up with something that makes you feel comfortable and run with it. But I would probably do something like

+1: 3,750gp
+2: 15,000gp
+3: 33,750 gp
+4: 60,000 gp
+5: 93,750 gp
+6:135,000 gp

And those are at most, it is useful and nice but it does take up a slot, and wont stack with other luck bonuses to these things along with a few other factors. Even just getting the +2 version is a major investment, +6 no one can afford forever.
Femur Toothpick
02-08-04, 12:00 PM It's funny, I never really thought of weapons as slotless items, but I guess they are. I also didn't think about the hardness & ability to overcome DR that an enhancement bonus offers. The pricing you gave still seems low to me, but I think we're all in the same ballpark - I'm just on the higher end. Magic item pricing isn't as much of a science as it is an art.

I'll probably settle more in the area of Da Chicken's recommendation and see if the rest of my party will go for such an item.

Thanks everyone for your help.
da chicken
02-08-04, 12:44 PM Weapons are slotted. You have to use them in-hand to have them function at all. Some of them only require one hand, but some require two. I can't use 5 +5 defending daggers, can I?

As far as DR and hardness/hp, those benefits are trivial at best. DR only counts for the first +1.

The main kicker is that you could buy a +1 shock cold iron longsword and +1 frost silver morning star, and then get bracers +3 and you'll have an effective two +4 weapons.

Even worse, if you use TWF these bracers apply to both weapons.
Scion of Coldshard
02-08-04, 12:53 PM Hardness and hp are trivial?? obviously your group does not play with sunder rules.

Yes dr only matters for the first +1, I stated that.

Weapons are somewhat slotted and somewhat not. You have to hold them, some you have to weild, but if you had extra hands you could hold more, perhaps many more. Plus there are feats to hold more than one weapon in a hand at a time.

::shrugs:: a weapon costs much less than an equivalent plus for weapons. You can only have on one pair of bracers but could have more than one weapon being held. The bonus is nice but doesnt count for everything, while at the same time still costing much, much more.

I just feel that a +10 weapon is incredibly better than these +6 bracers, but you have put them at around the same cost.

If I had to choose between a +10 weapon and these +6 bracers most of the time I would go for the weapon ;) but there are some special builds which would benefit more from the other, that is fine too. But the +10 weapon is almost always much, much better.

Edit: and unless you are a rogue, twf already sucks enough that it needs some sort of a bonus.
Femur Toothpick
02-08-04, 01:40 PM Edit: and unless you are a rogue, twf already sucks enough that it needs some sort of a bonus.

The idea behind this item came from this fact. TWF really hurts a fighter and a monks Flurry continuously lags behind a full BAB fighter. Clerics were given Divine Favor to even out their lag behind fighters in key battles. Monks, who are primarilly a fighting class, have no way to catch up to a fighter. This item helps them in this area. It of course can't be limited to just monks & TW fighters though and can benefit every class. It just has more of a benefit to them.

I think it's very important to price it significantly high so it's used more as a suppliment to a fighter's enhancement bonus. It has an inherant way of balancing out the monk's flurry & TWF though due to it helping all attack forms. It would be nice for a fighter, but it would still be cheaper for them to enhance their weapon and better (as Scion pointed out) against Sunder, over coming DR, etc.
Ertai Planeswalker
02-09-04, 05:01 AM Originally posted by da chicken
First, you should never use spell level x caster level x 2000 method unless you absolutely have to. Even then, it should be for items that don't grant bonuses covered by other effects.

Divine favor grants two bonuses. One to attack, and one to damage. You have to pay for both just like you do for magic weapons (that's why they cost exactly double magic armor costs).

Luck bonuses are of the formula bonus * bonus * 2500.

You could apply the .75 modifier for the second bonus, but since magic weapons don't then neither should this.

Additionally, it's common practice to round up to a near value, if applicable.

The formula, then, is bonus * bonus * 2500 * 2.

So:

Bracers of martial skill +1:
1 * 1 * 2500 * 2 = 5,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +2:
2 * 2 * 2500 * 2 = 20,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +3:
3 * 3 * 2500 * 2 = 45,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +4:
4 * 4 * 2500 * 2 = 80,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +5:
5 * 5 * 2500 * 2 = 125,000 gp

Bracers of martial skill +6:
6 * 6 * 2500 * 2 = 180,000 gp

I will say that you should look at Bracers of Archery. The greater version grants a +1 nonstandard bonus to damage and a +2 nonstandard bonus to hit. The item costs 25,000 gp.

I don't see why you multiply by 2 at the end. Other than that, i'd say your way of calculating is correct.
cwslyclgh
02-09-04, 05:44 AM obviously your group does not play with sunder rules. I can not speak for the person who this was aimed at... but for me... my villians tend to sunder exactly as often as the PC's do... which is not very often at all, considering that they want the loot from the PC's just as much as the PC's want the loot from them.

I did have a dragon who used sunder quite abit, but other then that one comabt sunder attepts have been few and far between.
Femur Toothpick
02-09-04, 08:59 AM Ertai,
the X 2 refers to the 2 different bonuses that are added to the item. +1 to attack and +1 to damage.
bonus x bonus x 2500 x 2(for each bonus)
Scion of Coldshard
02-09-04, 11:42 AM Originally posted by cwslyclgh
I can not speak for the person who this was aimed at... but for me... my villians tend to sunder exactly as often as the PC's do... which is not very often at all, considering that they want the loot from the PC's just as much as the PC's want the loot from them.

I did have a dragon who used sunder quite abit, but other then that one comabt sunder attepts have been few and far between.

While it is true that it is not used in some campaigns it is still true that this is what it does. Plus, extra hardness and hp work as well in case you are in an area of effect spell and roll a 1 on your save. Without that extra plus for hardness and hp your weapon might have been destroyed. Unless no one actually plays with that rule?

Do weapons get disarmed in your games? it is possible to still 'loot the bodies' if the weapon is on the ground. While on the ground a weapon is unattended, a misplaced area of effect spell or someone kicking it off the side of a cliff to get it away from you are possible. Destruction or damage is high on the list of probabilities.

Even though the tactics may not be common in all campaigns (it is common in some, nonexistant in others) the point still has to be made that it is there.

Plus, the pc's might care about looting, but the guys house who you just broke into is probably more worried about killing you and staying alive than looting your bodies. ;)

Anyway though, I was just wanting to bring up as many factors as possible, I am sure that I missed some somewhere as well. But the fact remains that a +1 on a weapon is still much better in most circumstances than a +1 from these bracers. Therefor +6 bracers shouldnt cost about as much as a +10 weapon ;)
Femur Toothpick
02-09-04, 12:50 PM I guess the real problem is that it's really not an either or decision. You don't choose between adding +10 to a weapon - or - get this +6 item. You would get your sword up to +8 and then get the +4 Divine Grace to top it off.

This is my worry with introducing an item like this into our campaign. I really hope it will balance out certain weaknesses in classes & feats a little, but I'd hate for it to get out of control too.
Scion of Coldshard
02-09-04, 12:56 PM Of course, but that is a worry with any items, new or old ;) there is always a potential for combinations to be too much more powerful than their individual parts would seem to say.

For your worry about being able to get a slightly bigger bonus for about the same price I can understand, but at the same time, that character is useing up a weapon 'slot' and a bracer slot. So he is still paying more, and since bracers are a fairly useful item slot normally anyway this is a pretty big price to pay.

Opportunity cost rears its ugly head ;)
Xavier X
02-09-04, 06:27 PM Method's I would consider:

Method 1: Spell level x Caster Level x 2000 x 4 (see below)

Divine Favour has a duration of 1 min flat rate, which, on average, is approximately equivilant to 1 rnd/lvl. From the table Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Value, items made from spells that last 1 round/lvl are x4 cost.

+1 8,000
+2 48,000
+3 72,000
+4 96,000
+5 120,000
+6 144,000

Method 2: Bonus Squared x 2000 / 2500 (Weapon Enhancement / Luck Enhancement)

+1 2,000 / 2,500
+2 8,000 / 10,000
+3 18,000 / 22,500
+4 32,000 / 40,000
+5 50,000 / 62,500
+6 72,000 / 90,000

Method 3: Bonus Squared x 4000 (Equivilant Strength)

A bonus to strength gives a bonus to hit and damage and would be an approximate equivilant for comparison purposes.

+1 4,000
+2 16,000
+3 36,000
+4 64,000
+5 100,000
+6 144,000

I like the results from method 3. The cost at lower benefit is not overly prohibitive, but still expensive enough to make it a significant item, while at large benefit the cost would definately mean the character would have to sacrifice to have such an item. In other words the cost increases exponentially which IMO befits a luck item for a hit and damage bonus.
kreynolds
02-11-04, 02:07 PM Originally posted by Dauntless
...your second ability would be at 75% cost.

That discount is reserved for similar spell-like powers, such as those that can be found on a staff. It isn't appropriate for a luck bonus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Femur Toothpick 02-08-04, 12:41 AM	Has this been done before -- and -- is this doable? Putting a +1 to +6 luck bonus to attack & damage is something that most characters would want. The only ones with access to it now are a few divine casters, and the smart ones cast it Persistant. By comparing the spell description to the formula in the DMG, a couple problems occur. First, what pricing catagory should this fall into? Second, the duration is one minute. The durations in the formula all pertain to durations like 1rnd/level, 1min/level, etc. Wouldn't you just multiply it based on the 1min/level duration? Here are a few ways I calculated it. Method 1: Uses the Spell Effect catagory for a continuous item. [Spell-level x caster-level x 2000 x 2 (for 1 min duration)] +1 - 4000 - caster level 1 +2 - 24,000 - CL 6 +3 - 36,000 - CL 9 +4 - 48,000 - CL 12 +5 - 60,000 - CL 15 +6 - 72,000 - CL 18 *TOO CHEAP* Method 2: I based it on other luck bonus pricing, which is at a 2000/2500 ratio for AC and 1000/2000 ratio for saves. I'll pick the higher one, 200%. The closest catagory I could come up with to increasing attack & damage bonuses is the weapon enhancement catagory. Using this as a base we get this pricing: (Bonus squared x 4000 x 2) same as Save luck bonus EDITED - I calculated this wrong the first time +1 - 8000 +2 - 32,000 +3 - 73,000 +4 - 128,000 +5 - 200,000 +6 - epic *THIS SEEMS HIGH* Method 2.5: *Same as AC luck bonus* (Bonus squared x 2500 x 2) +1 - 5000 +2 - 20,000 +3 - 45,000 +4 - 80,000 +5 - 125,000 +6 - 180,000 *THIS SEEMS ABOUT RIGHT, OR A LITTLE LOW* Method 3: This one uses the Pale Green Ioun Stone as a base. Competance bonuses are comparable to luck bonuses in pricing. For 30,000 gp you get 4 bonuses (attack, saves, skills, ability checks) and a slotless item. Breaking this down, you would pay 3750 per +1 bonus in a slotted item. The Luck Stone comes out to 3,333 per plus, but I went with the higher. So here's how I roled this out: (Bonus squared x 3750 x 2) +1 - 7500 +2 - 30,000 +3 - 67,500 +4 - 120,000 +5 - 187,500 +6 - epic *EXPENSIVE, BUT COULD BE OK* Method 4: The last method takes into account the 1 min duration. Could you make it work on command, but each use only lasts one minute? This would be similar to how a ring of invisibility works. The pricing strucure of Method 1 fits this type of item better than the others since it's a Use-Activated Spell-Effect item. Do any of these sound feasable? Am I opening up a huge can of worms here? Right now, I'm playing a character in our campaign and this would be a very useful item. But we switch off DMs and I'd hate to have to deny the item later when I'm asking for now. What do you think? -------------------
Dauntless 02-08-04, 01:25 AM	Considering the Luckstone (unslotted, gives +1 luck bonus to saves, skill checks, and saving throws) is 10,000 gp, that should give you a good idea of how much a luck bonus is worth. Luck bonuses stack with just about EVERYTHING else, which is why they are more expensive. In the charts in Tome and Blood, a luck bonus is priced at (bonus squared) x 2500. Now considering you have two different luck bonuses (one for attack and one for damage), your second ability would be at 75% cost. So a +1 luck bonus to attack and damage would probably be around [(1^2) x 2500] + .75[(1^2) x 2500] = 4375 Lets do out the math! +1 : 4,375 +2 : 17,500 +3 : 39,375 +4 : 70,000 +5 : 109,375 This prices it out very close to what you did for method 2, however I'd be inclined to round the numbers up a bit (5k, 20k, 45k, 75k, 120k or so) simply because there are so FEW sources of luck bonuses in the game.
da chicken 02-08-04, 05:07 AM	First, you should never use spell level x caster level x 2000 method unless you absolutely have to. Even then, it should be for items that don't grant bonuses covered by other effects. Divine favor grants two bonuses. One to attack, and one to damage. You have to pay for both just like you do for magic weapons (that's why they cost exactly double magic armor costs). Luck bonuses are of the formula bonus * bonus * 2500. You could apply the .75 modifier for the second bonus, but since magic weapons don't then neither should this. Additionally, it's common practice to round up to a near value, if applicable. The formula, then, is bonus * bonus * 2500 * 2. So: Bracers of martial skill +1: 1 * 1 * 2500 * 2 = 5,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +2: 2 * 2 * 2500 * 2 = 20,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +3: 3 * 3 * 2500 * 2 = 45,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +4: 4 * 4 * 2500 * 2 = 80,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +5: 5 * 5 * 2500 * 2 = 125,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +6: 6 * 6 * 2500 * 2 = 180,000 gp I will say that you should look at Bracers of Archery. The greater version grants a +1 nonstandard bonus to damage and a +2 nonstandard bonus to hit. The item costs 25,000 gp.
TempestadiossA 02-08-04, 10:06 AM	My master allowed me to get a Ring of Continuous Divine Favour (CL 18th) for 72,000gp (we used the SLxCLx2000x2 formula)...I think the price is really up to you.
Femur Toothpick 02-08-04, 10:35 AM	Thanks everyone, I looked at T&B at first to calculate this, but decided that the pricing had changed so much in 3.5 that I'd do better just sticking in the DMG. Notice the Luck Stone had changed from 10,000 to 20,000 GP in 3.5. This got confusing though since 3 bonuses in a slotless item added up to 20,000 and in the Ioun Stone 4 bonuses were 30,000. • Luck Stone uses a base cost of 3333 per plus (luck bonus). • Ioun Stone uses 3750 (comp. bonus). • Bracers of Archery seem to have another formula (comp. bonus). • Amulet of Mighty Fists is 3x the cost of weapon pricing (enhanc. bonus) Bracers of Greater Archery are +2att/+1dam and are 25,000 and only apply to bows and are a slotted item. I'm not sure how to break those plusses down since they're uneven, but 20,000 or 17,000 for +2 luck on ALL attacks & damage is probably too low compaired to this. I chose the higher cost of the Ioun Stone to base my Method 3 on and calculated it with 2 bonuses in a slotted item. This comes out with pricing higher than the the Amulet of MF and seems to fit in best with the other pricing. I'm leaning more toward this pricing.
Scion of Coldshard 02-08-04, 11:08 AM	Originally posted by da chicken Luck bonuses are of the formula bonus * bonus * 2500. You could apply the .75 modifier for the second bonus, but since magic weapons don't then neither should this. while the luck bonus does apply to two different things, the enhancement bonus (for flat +'s) provide way more benefit than just hit and damage. Lots more hardness and hp, penetration of dr (mainly only the first point matters, but the benefit is there), along with other special powers that arent just flat +'s. The luck bonus to only hit and damage is a bit harder. Not only does it take up a slot, but the base is already way more expensive than magic weapons anyway. I would say come up with something that makes you feel comfortable and run with it. But I would probably do something like +1: 3,750gp +2: 15,000gp +3: 33,750 gp +4: 60,000 gp +5: 93,750 gp +6:135,000 gp And those are at most, it is useful and nice but it does take up a slot, and wont stack with other luck bonuses to these things along with a few other factors. Even just getting the +2 version is a major investment, +6 no one can afford forever.
Femur Toothpick 02-08-04, 12:00 PM	It's funny, I never really thought of weapons as slotless items, but I guess they are. I also didn't think about the hardness & ability to overcome DR that an enhancement bonus offers. The pricing you gave still seems low to me, but I think we're all in the same ballpark - I'm just on the higher end. Magic item pricing isn't as much of a science as it is an art. I'll probably settle more in the area of Da Chicken's recommendation and see if the rest of my party will go for such an item. Thanks everyone for your help.
da chicken 02-08-04, 12:44 PM	Weapons are slotted. You have to use them in-hand to have them function at all. Some of them only require one hand, but some require two. I can't use 5 +5 defending daggers, can I? As far as DR and hardness/hp, those benefits are trivial at best. DR only counts for the first +1. The main kicker is that you could buy a +1 shock cold iron longsword and +1 frost silver morning star, and then get bracers +3 and you'll have an effective two +4 weapons. Even worse, if you use TWF these bracers apply to both weapons.
Scion of Coldshard 02-08-04, 12:53 PM	Hardness and hp are trivial?? obviously your group does not play with sunder rules. Yes dr only matters for the first +1, I stated that. Weapons are somewhat slotted and somewhat not. You have to hold them, some you have to weild, but if you had extra hands you could hold more, perhaps many more. Plus there are feats to hold more than one weapon in a hand at a time. ::shrugs:: a weapon costs much less than an equivalent plus for weapons. You can only have on one pair of bracers but could have more than one weapon being held. The bonus is nice but doesnt count for everything, while at the same time still costing much, much more. I just feel that a +10 weapon is incredibly better than these +6 bracers, but you have put them at around the same cost. If I had to choose between a +10 weapon and these +6 bracers most of the time I would go for the weapon ;) but there are some special builds which would benefit more from the other, that is fine too. But the +10 weapon is almost always much, much better. Edit: and unless you are a rogue, twf already sucks enough that it needs some sort of a bonus.
Femur Toothpick 02-08-04, 01:40 PM	Edit: and unless you are a rogue, twf already sucks enough that it needs some sort of a bonus. The idea behind this item came from this fact. TWF really hurts a fighter and a monks Flurry continuously lags behind a full BAB fighter. Clerics were given Divine Favor to even out their lag behind fighters in key battles. Monks, who are primarilly a fighting class, have no way to catch up to a fighter. This item helps them in this area. It of course can't be limited to just monks & TW fighters though and can benefit every class. It just has more of a benefit to them. I think it's very important to price it significantly high so it's used more as a suppliment to a fighter's enhancement bonus. It has an inherant way of balancing out the monk's flurry & TWF though due to it helping all attack forms. It would be nice for a fighter, but it would still be cheaper for them to enhance their weapon and better (as Scion pointed out) against Sunder, over coming DR, etc.
Ertai Planeswalker 02-09-04, 05:01 AM	Originally posted by da chicken First, you should never use spell level x caster level x 2000 method unless you absolutely have to. Even then, it should be for items that don't grant bonuses covered by other effects. Divine favor grants two bonuses. One to attack, and one to damage. You have to pay for both just like you do for magic weapons (that's why they cost exactly double magic armor costs). Luck bonuses are of the formula bonus * bonus * 2500. You could apply the .75 modifier for the second bonus, but since magic weapons don't then neither should this. Additionally, it's common practice to round up to a near value, if applicable. The formula, then, is bonus * bonus * 2500 * 2. So: Bracers of martial skill +1: 1 * 1 * 2500 * 2 = 5,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +2: 2 * 2 * 2500 * 2 = 20,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +3: 3 * 3 * 2500 * 2 = 45,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +4: 4 * 4 * 2500 * 2 = 80,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +5: 5 * 5 * 2500 * 2 = 125,000 gp Bracers of martial skill +6: 6 * 6 * 2500 * 2 = 180,000 gp I will say that you should look at Bracers of Archery. The greater version grants a +1 nonstandard bonus to damage and a +2 nonstandard bonus to hit. The item costs 25,000 gp. I don't see why you multiply by 2 at the end. Other than that, i'd say your way of calculating is correct.
cwslyclgh 02-09-04, 05:44 AM	obviously your group does not play with sunder rules. I can not speak for the person who this was aimed at... but for me... my villians tend to sunder exactly as often as the PC's do... which is not very often at all, considering that they want the loot from the PC's just as much as the PC's want the loot from them. I did have a dragon who used sunder quite abit, but other then that one comabt sunder attepts have been few and far between.
Femur Toothpick 02-09-04, 08:59 AM	Ertai, the X 2 refers to the 2 different bonuses that are added to the item. +1 to attack and +1 to damage. bonus x bonus x 2500 x 2(for each bonus)
Scion of Coldshard 02-09-04, 11:42 AM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh I can not speak for the person who this was aimed at... but for me... my villians tend to sunder exactly as often as the PC's do... which is not very often at all, considering that they want the loot from the PC's just as much as the PC's want the loot from them. I did have a dragon who used sunder quite abit, but other then that one comabt sunder attepts have been few and far between. While it is true that it is not used in some campaigns it is still true that this is what it does. Plus, extra hardness and hp work as well in case you are in an area of effect spell and roll a 1 on your save. Without that extra plus for hardness and hp your weapon might have been destroyed. Unless no one actually plays with that rule? Do weapons get disarmed in your games? it is possible to still 'loot the bodies' if the weapon is on the ground. While on the ground a weapon is unattended, a misplaced area of effect spell or someone kicking it off the side of a cliff to get it away from you are possible. Destruction or damage is high on the list of probabilities. Even though the tactics may not be common in all campaigns (it is common in some, nonexistant in others) the point still has to be made that it is there. Plus, the pc's might care about looting, but the guys house who you just broke into is probably more worried about killing you and staying alive than looting your bodies. ;) Anyway though, I was just wanting to bring up as many factors as possible, I am sure that I missed some somewhere as well. But the fact remains that a +1 on a weapon is still much better in most circumstances than a +1 from these bracers. Therefor +6 bracers shouldnt cost about as much as a +10 weapon ;)
Femur Toothpick 02-09-04, 12:50 PM	I guess the real problem is that it's really not an either or decision. You don't choose between adding +10 to a weapon - or - get this +6 item. You would get your sword up to +8 and then get the +4 Divine Grace to top it off. This is my worry with introducing an item like this into our campaign. I really hope it will balance out certain weaknesses in classes & feats a little, but I'd hate for it to get out of control too.
Scion of Coldshard 02-09-04, 12:56 PM	Of course, but that is a worry with any items, new or old ;) there is always a potential for combinations to be too much more powerful than their individual parts would seem to say. For your worry about being able to get a slightly bigger bonus for about the same price I can understand, but at the same time, that character is useing up a weapon 'slot' and a bracer slot. So he is still paying more, and since bracers are a fairly useful item slot normally anyway this is a pretty big price to pay. Opportunity cost rears its ugly head ;)
Xavier X 02-09-04, 06:27 PM	Method's I would consider: Method 1: Spell level x Caster Level x 2000 x 4 (see below) Divine Favour has a duration of 1 min flat rate, which, on average, is approximately equivilant to 1 rnd/lvl. From the table Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Value, items made from spells that last 1 round/lvl are x4 cost. +1 8,000 +2 48,000 +3 72,000 +4 96,000 +5 120,000 +6 144,000 Method 2: Bonus Squared x 2000 / 2500 (Weapon Enhancement / Luck Enhancement) +1 2,000 / 2,500 +2 8,000 / 10,000 +3 18,000 / 22,500 +4 32,000 / 40,000 +5 50,000 / 62,500 +6 72,000 / 90,000 Method 3: Bonus Squared x 4000 (Equivilant Strength) A bonus to strength gives a bonus to hit and damage and would be an approximate equivilant for comparison purposes. +1 4,000 +2 16,000 +3 36,000 +4 64,000 +5 100,000 +6 144,000 I like the results from method 3. The cost at lower benefit is not overly prohibitive, but still expensive enough to make it a significant item, while at large benefit the cost would definately mean the character would have to sacrifice to have such an item. In other words the cost increases exponentially which IMO befits a luck item for a hit and damage bonus.
kreynolds 02-11-04, 02:07 PM	Originally posted by Dauntless ...your second ability would be at 75% cost. That discount is reserved for similar spell-like powers, such as those that can be found on a staff. It isn't appropriate for a luck bonus.