Break Enchantment vs. Feeblemind [Archive] - Wizards Community

Break Enchantment vs. Feeblemind [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LurkerBeneath
07-02-07, 11:30 PM This was debated on the Paizo messageboards with no clear resolution. Now it's your turn.

Break enchantment says:
This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. ... If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.

Feeblemind says:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
...
Duration: Instantaneous
...

but it also says:
The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind.

So does break enchantment reverse feeblemind or not?
jaelis
07-03-07, 12:04 AM Sounds like conflicting rules, it's not obvious which one should take priority. I'd say it's a DM call. And my call would be that feeblemind works.
Vegepygmy
07-03-07, 12:08 AM I think break enchantment reverses feeblemind.
runestar
07-03-07, 12:35 AM The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind.
This line does not make much sense.

If feeblemind could be cured by break enchantment, then limited wish, wish or miracle would surely work as well as they could be used to duplicate the effects of a break enchantment or a heal spell anyways. There would be no need to state the obvious. Even heal's spell desc has a clause explicitly stating that it removes the drawbacks of feeblemind.

I am not sure what the designer's intent was. Did he meant the list to be a reminder to players of the options open to them? A player might not necessarily be aware that heal removes feeblemind if he was not yet familiar with said spell.

Or did he intend that those be the only spells which could remove feeblemind? Which would suck, since it is a 5th lv spell, while the closest cure is a 6th lv spell, which is not available until 1-2 lvs away. But in the interest of fairness, I would allow break enchantment to cure feeblemind.:)
Mentar
07-03-07, 12:49 AM The implication of feeblemind is that those are the only methods of removing it.

Does it say remove curse can't?
Does it say dispel magic can't?
Does it say break enchantment can't?

When a spell clearly states what can remove it, those are the only things that remove it until a later spell states it can.

The instantaneous duration means the feeblemind is still in effect in AMF.
ArcTan
07-03-07, 02:40 AM Just based on this I'd have to say that break enchantment clearly looks like it should work on feeblemind. However, the *intention* of the list of counters after feeblemind was clearly to be an exhaustive list, so the RAI is to not let break enchantment work -- which, you know, I'm fine with.
tarkin
07-03-07, 09:44 AM One:

This is one case were two different rules clearly contradict each other.

Therefore, this is yet one more example of how RAW does NOT work

You can not read Break Enchantment and say "it over-rides" Feeblemind's written rules without interpreating it.

By RAW, we do not know what happens.

Two: Using RAI, it is clear to me that if they list a set of spells, they are specifically saying that other spells do not fix it.

Specific rules should over-ride general rules using RAI, because we know the clear intent of the specific rules, but the general rules are not as clear.
Pentar
07-03-07, 11:52 AM Hmm... it didn't seem that unclear to me. The list of spells that cure Feeblemind is given. Similar to how Wall of Force has a list of spells given that can destroy it. Since both these spells are in the Core 3.5 PHB, then we can't even argue that Break Enchantment came after Feeblemind and thus Feeblemind could not possibly include BE in its description.

To me, since it explicitly states a list of spells that can cure the condition and since Break Enchantment is not on that list, then I would say Break Enchantment could not cure Feeblemind.

But in the interest of game balance, I would allow it to work as a house rule.
longarm
07-03-07, 12:39 PM Feeblemind is an instantaneous spell. It's effect linger indefinitely until one of the specific spells listed is used to reverse those effects. Break enchantment ends ongoing enchantment spells of 5th level or lower (those with non-instantaneous durations) which feeblemind is not (there is no ongoing magic associated with feeblemind which is why it can't be dispelled or broken by an antimagic field). The spells listed in the description of feeblemind are those that repair the damage done by the spell.

-Longarm
jaelis
07-03-07, 12:46 PM But it says

Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect.

which seems to invalidate your point.
Merestil Haye
07-03-07, 03:57 PM I am in the camp that Break Enchantment cannot reverse the effects of Feeblemind.

Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm) gives us not a specific list of spells it can reverse, but a set of parameters. All spells that match those parameters are fair game, unless something is blocking the Break Enchantment from working.

Feeblemind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) gives a specific list of spells that can reverse it. Break Enchantment is not on that list. Of the ones that are, three are so wide in scope as to be able to do almost anything. The fourth, Heal, has a list of conditions it can cure - Feeblemind among them.

It would not have been difficult to add Break Enchantment to the list in Feeblemind, but they didn't. I conclude that Feeblemind is not reversible by Break Enchantment.

@ Jaelis : I agree that you can't argue that because Feeblemind is Instantaneous, Break Enchantment can't reverse it, because Break Enchantment says it can reverse Instantaneous spells.
Vharuck
07-03-07, 04:12 PM Edited: I misunderstood the problem, and spent a lot of time writing a useless response.
divide_by_zero
07-04-07, 02:58 AM Either as an alternative or as a point of reference for the relative power needed to reverse Feeblemind, consider Panacea from the Spell Compendium.
It cures a number of conditions including feeblemind. It is a fourth level cleric spell.

Break Enchantment is a fifth level cleric spell.
ArcTan
07-05-07, 08:56 PM Please note that if break enchantment can't reverse feeblemind or insanity, then there *are* no Instantaneous Enchantments break enchantment works on, making that line in the spell desc useless.
runestar
07-05-07, 10:49 PM Please note that if break enchantment can't reverse feeblemind or insanity, then there *are* no Instantaneous Enchantments break enchantment works on, making that line in the spell desc useless.
It could simply be a catch all in case such a spell is ever released in a future supplement. Take for example, the improved SR feat from the ELH. It states that it improves the sr granted by a race, class or feat, but at that time, there were no feats granting sr.:)
kalstrand
07-06-07, 01:25 AM Feeblemind is a hold over from 2nd edition including the ways to cure it. Break Enchantment was not in 2nd edition and it would appear that when they updated Feeblemind they didn't take Break Enchantment into account.
ScipioX
07-06-07, 01:47 AM As Kalstrand noted, the text of feeblemind predates break enchantment. Therefore there's no reason to assume that the list was supposed to exclude break enchantment.

2nd: Assuming that a list is exhaustive when it doesn't specify not the best idea. The text of break enchantment clearly describes parameters. Feeblemind falls into those parameters. Therefore, barring a specific prohibition, break enchantment will cure feeblemind. The spell feeble provides a list of spells that can reverse it, but it doesn't say its an exhaustive list. Therefore you are making a big assumption if you go ahead and say that break enchantment doesn't work. The list in feeblemind simply doesn't rise to the level of a specific prohibition that bars break enchantment from working.
ArcTan
07-06-07, 01:57 AM Also, note that break enchantment never constitutes an *automatic* cure for a spell, while the spells referenced in these lists -- heal, limited wish, etc. -- *are* automatic.

It still makes sense to say that greater restoration and limited wish are required to *automatically* cure insanity, while break enchantment only gives you a chance to do so by making a caster level check.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LurkerBeneath 07-02-07, 11:30 PM	This was debated on the Paizo messageboards with no clear resolution. Now it's your turn. Break enchantment says: This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. ... If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower. Feeblemind says: Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Sor/Wiz 5 ... Duration: Instantaneous ... but it also says: The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. So does break enchantment reverse feeblemind or not?
jaelis 07-03-07, 12:04 AM	Sounds like conflicting rules, it's not obvious which one should take priority. I'd say it's a DM call. And my call would be that feeblemind works.
Vegepygmy 07-03-07, 12:08 AM	I think break enchantment reverses feeblemind.
runestar 07-03-07, 12:35 AM	The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. This line does not make much sense. If feeblemind could be cured by break enchantment, then limited wish, wish or miracle would surely work as well as they could be used to duplicate the effects of a break enchantment or a heal spell anyways. There would be no need to state the obvious. Even heal's spell desc has a clause explicitly stating that it removes the drawbacks of feeblemind. I am not sure what the designer's intent was. Did he meant the list to be a reminder to players of the options open to them? A player might not necessarily be aware that heal removes feeblemind if he was not yet familiar with said spell. Or did he intend that those be the only spells which could remove feeblemind? Which would suck, since it is a 5th lv spell, while the closest cure is a 6th lv spell, which is not available until 1-2 lvs away. But in the interest of fairness, I would allow break enchantment to cure feeblemind.:)
Mentar 07-03-07, 12:49 AM	The implication of feeblemind is that those are the only methods of removing it. Does it say remove curse can't? Does it say dispel magic can't? Does it say break enchantment can't? When a spell clearly states what can remove it, those are the only things that remove it until a later spell states it can. The instantaneous duration means the feeblemind is still in effect in AMF.
ArcTan 07-03-07, 02:40 AM	Just based on this I'd have to say that break enchantment clearly looks like it should work on feeblemind. However, the intention of the list of counters after feeblemind was clearly to be an exhaustive list, so the RAI is to not let break enchantment work -- which, you know, I'm fine with.
tarkin 07-03-07, 09:44 AM	One: This is one case were two different rules clearly contradict each other. Therefore, this is yet one more example of how RAW does NOT work You can not read Break Enchantment and say "it over-rides" Feeblemind's written rules without interpreating it. By RAW, we do not know what happens. Two: Using RAI, it is clear to me that if they list a set of spells, they are specifically saying that other spells do not fix it. Specific rules should over-ride general rules using RAI, because we know the clear intent of the specific rules, but the general rules are not as clear.
Pentar 07-03-07, 11:52 AM	Hmm... it didn't seem that unclear to me. The list of spells that cure Feeblemind is given. Similar to how Wall of Force has a list of spells given that can destroy it. Since both these spells are in the Core 3.5 PHB, then we can't even argue that Break Enchantment came after Feeblemind and thus Feeblemind could not possibly include BE in its description. To me, since it explicitly states a list of spells that can cure the condition and since Break Enchantment is not on that list, then I would say Break Enchantment could not cure Feeblemind. But in the interest of game balance, I would allow it to work as a house rule.
longarm 07-03-07, 12:39 PM	Feeblemind is an instantaneous spell. It's effect linger indefinitely until one of the specific spells listed is used to reverse those effects. Break enchantment ends ongoing enchantment spells of 5th level or lower (those with non-instantaneous durations) which feeblemind is not (there is no ongoing magic associated with feeblemind which is why it can't be dispelled or broken by an antimagic field). The spells listed in the description of feeblemind are those that repair the damage done by the spell. -Longarm
jaelis 07-03-07, 12:46 PM	But it says Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. which seems to invalidate your point.
Merestil Haye 07-03-07, 03:57 PM	I am in the camp that Break Enchantment cannot reverse the effects of Feeblemind. Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm) gives us not a specific list of spells it can reverse, but a set of parameters. All spells that match those parameters are fair game, unless something is blocking the Break Enchantment from working. Feeblemind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) gives a specific list of spells that can reverse it. Break Enchantment is not on that list. Of the ones that are, three are so wide in scope as to be able to do almost anything. The fourth, Heal, has a list of conditions it can cure - Feeblemind among them. It would not have been difficult to add Break Enchantment to the list in Feeblemind, but they didn't. I conclude that Feeblemind is not reversible by Break Enchantment. @ Jaelis : I agree that you can't argue that because Feeblemind is Instantaneous, Break Enchantment can't reverse it, because Break Enchantment says it can reverse Instantaneous spells.
Vharuck 07-03-07, 04:12 PM	Edited: I misunderstood the problem, and spent a lot of time writing a useless response.
divide_by_zero 07-04-07, 02:58 AM	Either as an alternative or as a point of reference for the relative power needed to reverse Feeblemind, consider Panacea from the Spell Compendium. It cures a number of conditions including feeblemind. It is a fourth level cleric spell. Break Enchantment is a fifth level cleric spell.
ArcTan 07-05-07, 08:56 PM	Please note that if break enchantment can't reverse feeblemind or insanity, then there are no Instantaneous Enchantments break enchantment works on, making that line in the spell desc useless.
runestar 07-05-07, 10:49 PM	Please note that if break enchantment can't reverse feeblemind or insanity, then there are no Instantaneous Enchantments break enchantment works on, making that line in the spell desc useless. It could simply be a catch all in case such a spell is ever released in a future supplement. Take for example, the improved SR feat from the ELH. It states that it improves the sr granted by a race, class or feat, but at that time, there were no feats granting sr.:)
kalstrand 07-06-07, 01:25 AM	Feeblemind is a hold over from 2nd edition including the ways to cure it. Break Enchantment was not in 2nd edition and it would appear that when they updated Feeblemind they didn't take Break Enchantment into account.
ScipioX 07-06-07, 01:47 AM	As Kalstrand noted, the text of feeblemind predates break enchantment. Therefore there's no reason to assume that the list was supposed to exclude break enchantment. 2nd: Assuming that a list is exhaustive when it doesn't specify not the best idea. The text of break enchantment clearly describes parameters. Feeblemind falls into those parameters. Therefore, barring a specific prohibition, break enchantment will cure feeblemind. The spell feeble provides a list of spells that can reverse it, but it doesn't say its an exhaustive list. Therefore you are making a big assumption if you go ahead and say that break enchantment doesn't work. The list in feeblemind simply doesn't rise to the level of a specific prohibition that bars break enchantment from working.
ArcTan 07-06-07, 01:57 AM	Also, note that break enchantment never constitutes an automatic cure for a spell, while the spells referenced in these lists -- heal, limited wish, etc. -- are automatic. It still makes sense to say that greater restoration and limited wish are required to automatically cure insanity, while break enchantment only gives you a chance to do so by making a caster level check.