Breeding magic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breeding magic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
was_fired
06-30-07, 05:02 PM I tend to go through a bit of D&D withdrawal over the summer so instead I start looking at the rules and threads here. Anyways a bit of amusing trick I came across last year was the fact that wands can be used to make more wands. I started doing this with my insane warlock (all of his wands are named) who has craft wand but doesn't yet have the ability to emulate spells in order to make magic items. The trick here is that all you need to make a wand is the feat and the spell to be cast. With the wand you take care of the casting and in the case of the creation of a first level spell and CL one you only need to use a single charge from an existing wand to do so. Thus you can breed wands of cure light wounds (at the cost of XP and GP of course).

Now the real trick I noticed comes from the feat in the Complete Arcane which lets you cast a spell from a wand at a higher level that it was originally cast at. This means that in theory you could have a first level wand make a third level, then the third level makes a fifth, and so on and so forth. It isn't actually all that useful in practice, but it is a fairly amusing trick in my opinion at least. It's also possible to use wands to make scrolls, but scroll breeding doesn't really work out very well all.
Dead_Weasel
06-30-07, 11:49 PM Huh. You know, it had never occurred to me that a wand could be used to make another wand, or any other magical item for that matter, but that is true. Not bad.

Reckless Wand Wielder, however, increases caster level, not spell level. Since that affects the wand's effect, it does not increase the power of the wand in any way, even if you choose to apply the feat when creating a new wand. All this would allow you to do is increase the caster level of the wand past your own caster level, making it more expensive to create (although potentially more potent as well). Although this would be very useful early on, it quickly becomes less so, as spells' effects start hitting their effect caps. Since you have to have Craft Wand before you can even take Reckless Wand Wielder, the soonest a character could take it is level 9, or level 6 for a wizard. In order to get the most out of Reckless Wand Wielder, a wand has to be crafted at a caster level two levels lower than its effect cap.

Note that even if the spell's level were to be increased, it would not be particularly constructive, since wands cannot contain spells greater than 4th level.

Unless you find all of your wands (at less than full charge), RWW is a losing investment. Twice as many uses is almost always better than an extra two dice, and you do not always receive the two dice thanks to effect caps.

Normal: CL * charges * damage die
RWW: (CL+2) * (charges/2) * damage die

Normal
Caster Level cure light wounds magic missile lightning bolt
1 50d8+50 50d4+50 -
2 50d8+100 50d4+50 -
3 50d8+150 100d4+100 -
4 50d8+200 100d4+100 -
5 50d8+250 150d4+150 250d6
6 50d8+250 150d4+150 300d6
7 50d8+250 200d4+200 350d6
8 50d8+250 200d4+200 400d6
9 50d8+250 250d4+250 450d6
10 50d8+250 250d4+250 500d6

RWW
Caster Level cure light wounds magic missile lightning bolt
1 25d8+100 50d4+50 -
2 25d8+150 50d4+50 -
3 25d8+200 75d4+75 -
4 25d8+250 75d4+75 -
5 25d8+250 100d4+100 175d6
6 25d8+250 100d4+100 200d6
7 25d8+250 125d4+125 225d6
8 25d8+250 125d4+125 250d6
9 25d8+250 125d4+125 250d6
10 25d8+250 125d4+125 250d6Obviously these are just a few examples, but even so the only time RWW comes out ahead is if you roll more than half 1's with a CL1 to CL4 wand of cure light wounds.

I am not trying to be negative, but after investigating the matter, I absolutely cannot see a good reason to take RWW. It might look pretty but it putters out before you can even take the feat.

Take Wand Mastery from the Eberron Campaign Setting instead - you get the +2 caster level in addition to a DC boost without losing charges, and there is no downside, save that a wizard would have to wait until level 9 to take it.

Magic of Eberron also has a pair of feats for wand-wielders; Cull Wand Essence and Wand Surge. Wand Surge, however, will only be useful in an Eberron campaign, since it relies on action points.
was_fired
06-30-07, 11:58 PM No, I agree with you but I just figured it was an amusing little trick in theory. The math behind being able to make a caster level 66 wand at level 6 amuses me even if it would be economically infeasible.
'G'
07-02-07, 12:14 AM You could raise the level of the wands casting ability. However I believe that using one wand to make another would complety use up the charges from the initial wand to the other, since the spell must literally be cast the number of times on the new wand as it has charges.

I will have to check to make sure, that this is official, and not just a house rule we have been playing bye.
'G'
07-02-07, 01:32 AM You could raise the level of the wands casting ability. However I believe that using one wand to make another would complety use up the charges from the initial wand to the other, since the spell must literally be cast the number of times on the new wand as it has charges.

I will have to check to make sure, that this is official, and not just a house rule we have been playing bye.

Edited

OK I made a mistake, it would only take the number of cating equal to half the market cost, but that could still be up 11 castings. So your idea does work.
Dead_Weasel
07-02-07, 04:13 AM Not true, creating a wand requires that the spell be cast once for each day the wand's production requires, meaning that the number of castings varies with spell level and caster level. Up to 60 castings could be required, pre-epic, and although I cannot imagine what someone would need a CL 20 wand for, it remains possible.
tarkin
07-02-07, 12:01 PM You need to spend one charge for every day you are crafting.

If the wand takes 50 days to craft, then it takes 50 charges to make.

However, it is VERY wastefull gold and XP wise to do this. It makes far more sense to get a caster to help out.
was_fired
07-02-07, 01:56 PM The use still remains if you don't have someone who can cast the spell in your party, but have someone who can craft a wand and use UMD. I admit this only has value for niche spells and the wand to scroll version is normally the best here (as it allows a wizard to then learn it from the scroll), but the trick does remain intact.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
was_fired 06-30-07, 05:02 PM	I tend to go through a bit of D&D withdrawal over the summer so instead I start looking at the rules and threads here. Anyways a bit of amusing trick I came across last year was the fact that wands can be used to make more wands. I started doing this with my insane warlock (all of his wands are named) who has craft wand but doesn't yet have the ability to emulate spells in order to make magic items. The trick here is that all you need to make a wand is the feat and the spell to be cast. With the wand you take care of the casting and in the case of the creation of a first level spell and CL one you only need to use a single charge from an existing wand to do so. Thus you can breed wands of cure light wounds (at the cost of XP and GP of course). Now the real trick I noticed comes from the feat in the Complete Arcane which lets you cast a spell from a wand at a higher level that it was originally cast at. This means that in theory you could have a first level wand make a third level, then the third level makes a fifth, and so on and so forth. It isn't actually all that useful in practice, but it is a fairly amusing trick in my opinion at least. It's also possible to use wands to make scrolls, but scroll breeding doesn't really work out very well all.
Dead_Weasel 06-30-07, 11:49 PM	Huh. You know, it had never occurred to me that a wand could be used to make another wand, or any other magical item for that matter, but that is true. Not bad. Reckless Wand Wielder, however, increases caster level, not spell level. Since that affects the wand's effect, it does not increase the power of the wand in any way, even if you choose to apply the feat when creating a new wand. All this would allow you to do is increase the caster level of the wand past your own caster level, making it more expensive to create (although potentially more potent as well). Although this would be very useful early on, it quickly becomes less so, as spells' effects start hitting their effect caps. Since you have to have Craft Wand before you can even take Reckless Wand Wielder, the soonest a character could take it is level 9, or level 6 for a wizard. In order to get the most out of Reckless Wand Wielder, a wand has to be crafted at a caster level two levels lower than its effect cap. Note that even if the spell's level were to be increased, it would not be particularly constructive, since wands cannot contain spells greater than 4th level. Unless you find all of your wands (at less than full charge), RWW is a losing investment. Twice as many uses is almost always better than an extra two dice, and you do not always receive the two dice thanks to effect caps. Normal: CL * charges * damage die RWW: (CL+2) * (charges/2) * damage die Normal Caster Level cure light wounds magic missile lightning bolt 1 50d8+50 50d4+50 - 2 50d8+100 50d4+50 - 3 50d8+150 100d4+100 - 4 50d8+200 100d4+100 - 5 50d8+250 150d4+150 250d6 6 50d8+250 150d4+150 300d6 7 50d8+250 200d4+200 350d6 8 50d8+250 200d4+200 400d6 9 50d8+250 250d4+250 450d6 10 50d8+250 250d4+250 500d6 RWW Caster Level cure light wounds magic missile lightning bolt 1 25d8+100 50d4+50 - 2 25d8+150 50d4+50 - 3 25d8+200 75d4+75 - 4 25d8+250 75d4+75 - 5 25d8+250 100d4+100 175d6 6 25d8+250 100d4+100 200d6 7 25d8+250 125d4+125 225d6 8 25d8+250 125d4+125 250d6 9 25d8+250 125d4+125 250d6 10 25d8+250 125d4+125 250d6Obviously these are just a few examples, but even so the only time RWW comes out ahead is if you roll more than half 1's with a CL1 to CL4 wand of cure light wounds. I am not trying to be negative, but after investigating the matter, I absolutely cannot see a good reason to take RWW. It might look pretty but it putters out before you can even take the feat. Take Wand Mastery from the Eberron Campaign Setting instead - you get the +2 caster level in addition to a DC boost without losing charges, and there is no downside, save that a wizard would have to wait until level 9 to take it. Magic of Eberron also has a pair of feats for wand-wielders; Cull Wand Essence and Wand Surge. Wand Surge, however, will only be useful in an Eberron campaign, since it relies on action points.
was_fired 06-30-07, 11:58 PM	No, I agree with you but I just figured it was an amusing little trick in theory. The math behind being able to make a caster level 66 wand at level 6 amuses me even if it would be economically infeasible.
'G' 07-02-07, 12:14 AM	You could raise the level of the wands casting ability. However I believe that using one wand to make another would complety use up the charges from the initial wand to the other, since the spell must literally be cast the number of times on the new wand as it has charges. I will have to check to make sure, that this is official, and not just a house rule we have been playing bye.
'G' 07-02-07, 01:32 AM	You could raise the level of the wands casting ability. However I believe that using one wand to make another would complety use up the charges from the initial wand to the other, since the spell must literally be cast the number of times on the new wand as it has charges. I will have to check to make sure, that this is official, and not just a house rule we have been playing bye. Edited OK I made a mistake, it would only take the number of cating equal to half the market cost, but that could still be up 11 castings. So your idea does work.
Dead_Weasel 07-02-07, 04:13 AM	Not true, creating a wand requires that the spell be cast once for each day the wand's production requires, meaning that the number of castings varies with spell level and caster level. Up to 60 castings could be required, pre-epic, and although I cannot imagine what someone would need a CL 20 wand for, it remains possible.
tarkin 07-02-07, 12:01 PM	You need to spend one charge for every day you are crafting. If the wand takes 50 days to craft, then it takes 50 charges to make. However, it is VERY wastefull gold and XP wise to do this. It makes far more sense to get a caster to help out.
was_fired 07-02-07, 01:56 PM	The use still remains if you don't have someone who can cast the spell in your party, but have someone who can craft a wand and use UMD. I admit this only has value for niche spells and the wand to scroll version is normally the best here (as it allows a wizard to then learn it from the scroll), but the trick does remain intact.