Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuroimaken 02-20-08, 11:05 PM	OK, so today we ran into this druid guy. He starts getting all cracked up about how there was lots of vegetation around for him to use, and he cast Briar Web. We're level 4 (exception made to another player). And then I said, "Okay, I passed my reflex save, so I'm going to move at half speed to get out of this mess." Next round he starts buffing himself, and I think, "okay, two more move actions and I'm out of here." On my turn I say, "Yes, I'm out!" and our DM says, "Oh, so you used your full-round action to get a new reflex save." and I said, "no, I passed the save last round. I'm moving out." And then he pointed me to the description of Briar Web, and I am FORCED to go "What the unspeakable, Microsoftean Hell?!" "And why would that be" you ask? Because of the following line in the spell description. Each round in which a creature remains in the area, it may spend a full-round action extricating themselves from the thorns. Doing so allows for a new saving throw. If successful, the creature is unaffected by the thorns except it may only move at half speed in the area of the spell. Bolding mine. Okay, so let me get this straight. The ONLY way of getting out of this mess, according to RAW on Complete Divine, is to successfully save the round this spell is cast and somehow be able to move 50 ft. in a round (so that, at half speed, you can clear the 20-ft. radius of the spell, assuming it was centered on you). Otherwise, you're dead meat by the time the second round begins, because you'll have to spend your full-round action just to get free of the thorns so you have the PRIVILEGE of making a new save that, IF successful, will allow you to move HALF your speed while you remain in the spell's area. Oh, wait, what movement? You just spent your full-round action just to get free! What are you going to do, 5-ft. step your way to freedom? (Or should I say 2,5-ft. step, since your movement is cut in half?) Hilarity ensues. Mind you, if you cast any spell with a somatic component in the area or make any movement other than try to get free, you take 2d6 damage (and you'll have to make a Concentration check just to get it off, at an average of DC 22, not a very easy check to make at levels 4-6, unless you're totally geared up to NOT fail them, something not all spellcasters can afford). Which means that you have to somehow move with words. I'm sure the druid would prefer the words "Oh, please, please don't kill me, I'll never kill another creature of nature or get in the way of your INGENIOUS plans as long as I live!" :bored: I'm sure the RAI was probably something along the lines of moving at half speed if you save, making a new save next round if you're still in the area and (failing that) spending your full-round action to get a new save so you can move the next round at half speed. This would make the spell potent, but not the idiotically sad sack of brokenness that I see now. As it is, the only two ways of getting rid of this mess by RAW is to be able to move 50 feet in a round after successfully saving when the spell is cast on you, or being able to move on words alone. Neither is very easy to do at low levels, and on some cases even possible at all (halfling full fighter in medium armor anyone?). Oh, and I am sure whoever cast this on you can either afford to A) kick your ass with the use of ranged attacks (spells and weapons like bows and the like), or B) sit still and watch whatever you're going to do, in case you decide to wait until the spell's 1 minute/level duration runs out. Thoughts?
jaelis 02-20-08, 11:13 PM	The version in the Spell Compendium is different, and looks much more straightforward.
Kouk 02-20-08, 11:15 PM	In Complete Divine, I'm fairly certain that the intent is to allow you a full round action in the event you have failed your original saving throw. Once you have made a successful saving throw, you are no longer stuck, but just move at half speed until you get out. An alternate interpretation would be that you take a full round action to "extricating" yourself from the area. As part of that full round action, you make a new save and if successful can move up to half your total speed in the same action. The spell is similar to the wizard/sorcerer spell Web, which can glue you in place if you fail your save but you can attempt to free yourself with a STR check, and in subsequent rounds (after a successful check) continue to move with successive STR checks. I would treat the Reflex saves in a similar way as the Strength checks, in that you can make a successful save to be able to move that round. However, the spell Briar Web was reprinted in the Spell Compendium in a greatly different form, and as Spell Compendium came after Complete Divine, the Spell Compendium version takes precedence. The Spell Compendium version affects a larger area (40ft radius) but all it does is create difficult terrain, and only 1 point of piercing damage for every 5 ft you move. Much shorter spell description :D EDIT: The SC version is very much like a miniature Spike Stones spell.
Kuroimaken 02-20-08, 11:40 PM	The version in the Spell Compendium is different, and looks much more straightforward. Hmmm. Gonna have to find out why our DM decided to go with the CD version rather than the SC one. I believe he mentioned something about an errata saying that you should refer to the CD version rather than the SC one... But he didn't tell me where.
Saiyamantis 02-21-08, 12:36 AM	Even if he's using the CD version, your DM is making at least two mistakes: 1) The spell description states that anyone who makes their save is unaffected by the thorns. That means for the duration of the spell- if a new save was required each round, the spell description would say so. 2) You can choose act normally if you fail your save, at the penalty of 2d6 damage per action. By the RAW, you can actually move faster if you fail your save, since the speed reduction is only mentioned for characters you make their saves.
Kuroimaken 02-21-08, 01:05 AM	Even if he's using the CD version, your DM is making at least two mistakes: 1) The spell description states that anyone who makes their save is unaffected by the thorns. That means for the duration of the spell- if a new save was required each round, the spell description would say so. 2) You can choose act normally if you fail your save, at the penalty of 2d6 damage per action. By the RAW, you can actually move faster if you fail your save, since the speed reduction is only mentioned for characters you make their saves. 1) The problem, as I stated, is the line about the necessary full-round action. It doesn't state anything about whether it's necessary in the case of a successful save or not. Also, the description of the spell doesn't say whether the save is good for the duration of the spell or if it requires a new save each round (which it seems to imply from the full-round action bit description), as it should. It's like Hold Person: in 3.0, you had to get hit to snap out of it, otherwise no additional save. in 3.5 it's one save per round, but the description does state you get a save per round. 2) I don't get where you're taking this one from. I'm assuming that the negative consequences of making your save actually applies to you if you fail it (the text seems to imply it). Note how most spells that have saves tend to specify whether adverse effects suffered from MAKING your save are in addition to or other than the consequences of failing it (as in, spells that stun in addition to dealing damage tend to say "a successful save negates blah" in addition to halving their damage or whatever their saves do). Not surprisingly, Briar Web isn't very specific on that, either.
ArcTan 02-21-08, 02:45 AM	There is no such errata in the Spell Compendium errata I'm looking at right now. There's no other place I can think of where there would be an errata that could possibly say any such thing. Spell Compendium's own text says to take the SC versions of spells as superseding all previous versions. The only way to get around that would be something published later that supersedes SC itself, which could only be the Rules Compendium (and I very much doubt the RC says a single word about this specific spell). So no, your DM was just BSing you.
Kuroimaken 02-21-08, 07:24 AM	There is no such errata in the Spell Compendium errata I'm looking at right now. There's no other place I can think of where there would be an errata that could possibly say any such thing. Spell Compendium's own text says to take the SC versions of spells as superseding all previous versions. The only way to get around that would be something published later that supersedes SC itself, which could only be the Rules Compendium (and I very much doubt the RC says a single word about this specific spell). So no, your DM was just BSing you. I actually looked it up as well and couldn't find it either. I'll look it up on RC when I get the chance (and if I don't find anything there I'm giving him a piece of my mind). Don't BS the big, bad player. You don't like the big, bad player when he's BSed.
Karion_Tintinabar 02-21-08, 11:38 AM	Hi all, I am the DM that Kuroimaken was talking about... I was reading the posts about Briar Web, I too agreed that it has to be an error in this magic, because it is too strong for a 2º level druid magic... But the thing is that if you search here in the wizards site about "Errata briar" you will find the list of all magics and the respective books that it is found and valid... If you look for Briar Web you will only find it on CD and not in the SC... And about the magic and your posts, I only have read speculations about the magic and not explanations... I know that it will make much more sense if the reflexe save is equivalent of a stardard action instead of the full round, but....
Goof 02-21-08, 11:51 AM	I have delt w/ this spell, but as written in one of the ranger add on kind of books. It was witten differently I know, it had the 2d6+CL in it, and it was written in such a way that it sounded like if anyone moved no matter the save, you take damage. I need to get that book from her and see.
rjsilverthorn 02-21-08, 11:58 AM	Hi all, I am the DM that Kuroimaken was talking about... I was reading the posts about Briar Web, I too agreed that it has to be an error in this magic, because it is too strong for a 2º level druid magic... But the thing is that if you search here in the wizards site about "Errata briar" you will find the list of all magics and the respective books that it is found and valid... If you look for Briar Web you will only find it on CD and not in the SC... And about the magic and your posts, I only have read speculations about the magic and not explanations... I know that it will make much more sense if the reflexe save is equivalent of a stardard action instead of the full round, but.... Actually, if you go the consolidated spell list on the wizards site -http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells, the only version of the spell listed is the Spell Compendium version, so that is now the official version of the spell. I can't comment on the CDiv version till I get home and get a chance to read it.
Karion_Tintinabar 02-21-08, 12:26 PM	Actually, if you go the consolidated spell list on the wizards site -http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells, the only version of the spell listed is the Spell Compendium version, so that is now the official version of the spell. I can't comment on the CDiv version till I get home and get a chance to read it. Guys, enter in this link and see... that is the errata I was talking about... The original version is DC.... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x
rjsilverthorn 02-21-08, 12:35 PM	Guys, enter in this link and see... that is the errata I was talking about... The original version is DC.... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x Right, but that was updated January 13th of 2005, almost a year prior to the publication of the Spell Compendium. The consolidated lists are updated as new sources are published, and reflect the most recent published versions.
Knightblde 02-21-08, 12:53 PM	That link is the 3.0 to 3.5 update, not errata. They are talking about the SC updating the 3.5 version, which clearly trumps the information you are looking at. Now that that is cleared up Each round in which a creature remains in the area, it may spend a full-round action extricating themselves from the thorns. Doing so allows for a new saving throw. If successful, the creature is unaffected by the thorns except it may only move at half speed in the area of the spell. This means that as a full round action, if the target wishes, they may make a save and move 1/2 their movement.
Kuroimaken 02-22-08, 04:05 PM	This means that as a full round action, if the target wishes, they may make a save and move 1/2 their movement. Except that, you know, the spell description doesn't say anything about the full-round action actually moving you OR letting you move while you're at it, it only mentions the possibility of a new save.
rjsilverthorn 02-22-08, 05:21 PM	Except that, you know, the spell description doesn't say anything about the full-round action actually moving you OR letting you move while you're at it, it only mentions the possibility of a new save. Well the spell isn't written all that clearly, but I think the intent is relatively clear. It clearly says if you make your save, you are unaffected by the spell except being limited to moving 1/2 speed. The following section gives three options for characters that fail their save can take, stay perfectly still, attempt to break free and continue to act normally. The first paragraph after that covers creatures standing perfectly still. The second paragraph is the one about taking a full round action for a new save to get free and this obviously matches up with the second option for those who fail their save. This is further supported by the fact that the section after that talks about the penalties for acting normally. Therefore, you make you intial save and you are free to move at half speed. If you fail your intial save, you may then take a full round action to get a new save to free yourself.
MC_Templar 02-22-08, 05:45 PM	Bolding minethis time Each round in which a creature remains in the area, it may spend a full-round action extricating themselves from the thorns. Doing so allows for a new saving throw. If successful, the creature is unaffected by the thorns except it may only move at half speed in the area of the spell. I'm sure the RAI was probably something along the lines of moving at half speed if you save, making a new save next round if you're still in the area and (failing that) spending your full-round action to get a new save so you can move the next round at half speed. This would make the spell potent, but not the idiotically sad sack of brokenness that I see now. As it is, the only two ways of getting rid of this mess by RAW is to be able to move 50 feet in a round after successfully saving when the spell is cast on you, or being able to move on words alone. Neither is very easy to do at low levels, and on some cases even possible at all (halfling full fighter in medium armor anyone?). RAI and RAW as another poster has pointed out both say that your group has misinterpreted this spell and unintentionally overpowered it. Cleary, to me (and my group in the past) that when your successful saving throw means you are "unaffected by the thorns" a full round action to "extricate yourself from thorns" makes no sense at all. There wasn't even a dissenting voice at the table when it was re-read for emphasis.
Kuroimaken 02-22-08, 06:39 PM	RAI and RAW as another poster has pointed out both say that your group has misinterpreted this spell and unintentionally overpowered it. Cleary, to me (and my group in the past) that when your successful saving throw means you are "unaffected by the thorns" a full round action to "extricate yourself from thorns" makes no sense at all. There wasn't even a dissenting voice at the table when it was re-read for emphasis. RAI, yes. RAW isn't that clear. As I mentioned, the full-round action part doesn't mention whether it's needed after a successful save or not. I agree it doesn't make sense, but it -can- be read that way (as it was, effectively, by our DM). Not that it matters much, since the SC version is the official one now, but given that not everybody can use or even chooses to use SC...
Jaxgaret 02-22-08, 06:48 PM	The spell is neither broken nor poorly written, and as was already noted it is not even the current official version of the spell. Your DM is absolutely wrong, from multiple standpoints.
Roelandt 02-22-08, 08:49 PM	It takes a full round action to untangle yourself. To successfuly untangle yourself (meaning you can't move), you must make the save. If you are sucessful you are no longer entangled, and can therefore move through the bramble (at half speed because of the brambled terraine). The vegetation is no longer wrapped around. This is how it works. Its not broken or terribly written, though it can be a bit confusing...d20 authors are notoriously confusing (read the section of DMG about hirelings, cohorts and followers if you want a laugh...a D+ tops if it was an english paper). 1. Cast spell 2. You are tangled up in vegetation and it is spread over a wide area. 3. You take a full round to chop yourself loose (save) 4. If you succeed, you are free and can now trudge your way awkwardly over the vegetation (which reduces your movement). 5. If you fail, you are still stuck and must make ANOTHER full round action to attempt to break free again. Once you are free, you are no longer entangled and there is no need to make another saving throw, unless someone shoots you with a cone of cold or something of course. Your DM is confused. AND, Spell Compendium trumps Complete series, not the other way around.
Karion_Tintinabar 02-25-08, 08:44 AM	It takes a full round action to untangle yourself. To successfuly untangle yourself (meaning you can't move), you must make the save. If you are sucessful you are no longer entangled, and can therefore move through the bramble (at half speed because of the brambled terraine). The vegetation is no longer wrapped around. This is how it works. Its not broken or terribly written, though it can be a bit confusing...d20 authors are notoriously confusing (read the section of DMG about hirelings, cohorts and followers if you want a laugh...a D+ tops if it was an english paper). 1. Cast spell 2. You are tangled up in vegetation and it is spread over a wide area. 3. You take a full round to chop yourself loose (save) 4. If you succeed, you are free and can now trudge your way awkwardly over the vegetation (which reduces your movement). 5. If you fail, you are still stuck and must make ANOTHER full round action to attempt to break free again. Once you are free, you are no longer entangled and there is no need to make another saving throw, unless someone shoots you with a cone of cold or something of course. Your DM is confused. AND, Spell Compendium trumps Complete series, not the other way around. OK guys, but you have forgot the description of the spell, "Every turn that the char is in the area of the spell, it must make one of the 3 choices or it will be entangle again"... I know that it will not be very significant but anyone of you have already play baldur's gate 1, 2 or neverwinter nights? The entangle spell gets the chars multiple times... so I think that in CD the people of WotC made a mistake in the spell description... In my games I will continue to use the spell of CD but will make changes... Me, the other players (including Kuroimaken) have made an agreement that neither of us will use spells from SC because it have many unbalanced spells, only completes and basic book are alllowed in our gameplay sessions... (i'm not the only DM of our group, and this decision was made with this in mind, to balance all campains of our group)
rjsilverthorn 02-25-08, 11:52 AM	OK guys, but you have forgot the description of the spell, "Every turn that the char is in the area of the spell, it must make one of the 3 choices or it will be entangle again"... I know that it will not be very significant but anyone of you have already play baldur's gate 1, 2 or neverwinter nights? The entangle spell gets the chars multiple times... so I think that in CD the people of WotC made a mistake in the spell description... In my games I will continue to use the spell of CD but will make changes... Me, the other players (including Kuroimaken) have made an agreement that neither of us will use spells from SC because it have many unbalanced spells, only completes and basic book are alllowed in our gameplay sessions... (i'm not the only DM of our group, and this decision was made with this in mind, to balance all campains of our group) I didn't overlook it, I addressed it specifically. That line only applies to characters that fail their initial save. Go back and reread the spell. Look at the paragraph that describes the choices a player that fails their save can take and then look at the following three paragraphs. Each one of those paragraphs expounds on one of those options. The spell isn't so much poorly written as it is formatted. If those three following paragraphs were indented or number, it would be more obvious. Entangle is different, it specifically states that the plants created by the spell make a new attempt to entangle players on the caster's turn, requiring players in the area to make new saves. In the end, you are the DM and you can run the spell however you want, but once you look at it, its pretty clear how it is supposed to work.
Karion_Tintinabar 02-25-08, 12:28 PM	I didn't overlook it, I addressed it specifically. That line only applies to characters that fail their initial save. I'm sorry but there is nothing in the description that says that it only applies to the ones that failed in the save... You are assuming this because that part of the description is bellow the "3 choices"... Obviously the guys of WotC though this way when they wrote the spell, but we have to agree that it is a little ambigue... I think this was the inspiration that made our friend Kuroimaken beggin this thread...
ArcTan 02-25-08, 05:23 PM	SC itself has some spells that aren't very good, but in terms of the spells it's *imported* from other books and altered for balance reasons, most of those alterations make a lot of sense and are totally justified. (The Reciprocating Gyre, for instance.) In this case, I don't see how anyone can argue that the CDiv version is better than the SC version.
Beware of Kobold 02-26-08, 12:27 PM	I'm sorry but there is nothing in the description that says that it only applies to the ones that failed in the save... You are assuming this because that part of the description is bellow the "3 choices"... Obviously the guys of WotC though this way when they wrote the spell, but we have to agree that it is a little ambigue... I think this was the inspiration that made our friend Kuroimaken beggin this thread... its really not all that ambiguous. how much clearer does Creatures that make their save against this spell are unaffected other than having to move at half speed within the area of affect. need to be?