Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dygon470 03-02-04, 11:22 AM	Could a brilliant weapon be used for a sneack attack against someone who has heavy fortification?
tarkin 03-02-04, 12:41 PM	No. The fortification stops the brilliant sword. You can get Heavy Fortification on a shield. The Heavy Fortification protects you even if they hit your body instead of the shield. Heavy Fortification applies a special property to the wearer, not to the armor. Brilliant goes through the armor, but the wearer is still protected by the Other properties of the armor.
dygon470 03-02-04, 12:54 PM	ok thx, is there anyway to sneak attack someone with fortification armor besides waiting untill they go to sleep to take it off?
Darklion 03-02-04, 12:59 PM	ok thx, is there anyway to sneak attack someone with fortification armor besides waiting untill they go to sleep to take it off?No, not without trying exotic things like teleporting the armor off in the middle of combat. Thus, you have the reason why heavy fortification is a +5 ability. If there were ways to circumvent it, the utility of the ability would be far less useful, and so wouldn't be priced so expensively.
primemover003 03-02-04, 03:38 PM	Yes, Target Dispel the Armor, you'll get 1d4 rounds of sneak attack heaven.
Darklion 03-02-04, 03:56 PM	Yes, Target Dispel the Armor, you'll get 1d4 rounds of sneak attack heaven.Wow. I never noticed that before. So for heavy fortification, it would become a check of 1d20 + your caster level vs. a DC of 24. If your roll beats that DC, the armor becomes nonmagical for 1d4 rounds.
Edymnion 03-02-04, 04:09 PM	Originally posted by Darklion Wow. I never noticed that before. Yup. Get a weapon of dispelling from Magic of Faerun. Lets you make a touch attack with the weapon to fire off a targetted Dispell Magic once per day. Rogue runs up against somebody with Heavy Fort armor? Use your dispell, hope it supresses, then wail on him.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-02-04, 04:11 PM	Or just disintegrate it...
adiaven 03-02-04, 04:24 PM	if you disintegrate the armor, you might as well disintegrate the person too, since the saves are the same. If they fail the save, then you don't even need the sneak attack :)
Krelios 03-02-04, 04:27 PM	Not to mention the fact the disintegrating the wearer leaves the armor nice and intact (and perfectly clean inside)... Excerpted from Disintegrate spell: A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-02-04, 04:31 PM	Armor has less hp than people do.
Eldren 03-02-04, 04:35 PM	Except that armor's hit points don't come into play unless you're attempting to destroy a suit of armor that isn't being worn by someone. In theory, a Weapon of Brilliance should probably get past Fortification, but in practice it doesn't. The game doesn't quite clarify whether the Fortification enchantment is placed on the armor or the person wearing the armor (i.e., while they're wearing it, does the armor protect them from a critical hit, or are they protected because of an enchantment the armor places specifically on them?). But, again, Heavy Fortification is a +5 enchantment, and there ought to be very little that can get past defenses that require a +5 enchantment value to place in an armor or shield.
Loren Pechtel 03-02-04, 06:03 PM	Originally posted by Eldren In theory, a Weapon of Brilliance should probably get past Fortification, but in practice it doesn't. The game doesn't quite clarify whether the Fortification enchantment is placed on the armor or the person wearing the armor (i.e., while they're wearing it, does the armor protect them from a critical hit, or are they protected because of an enchantment the armor places specifically on them?). Since you can have fortification on a shield it's obvious the enchantment affects the user.
PennDragon 03-02-04, 08:19 PM	Originally posted by dygon470 Could a brilliant weapon be used for a sneack attack against someone who has heavy fortification? Originally posted by tarkin No. The fortification stops the brilliant sword. Brilliant goes through the armor, but the wearer is still protected by the Other properties of the armor. This Statement is Dead and Flat out Wrong SRD 3.5 Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. Brilliant Energy: A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition. In fact it does the Precise opposite of the Above Statement. in fact if you want to Sneak attack someone with Heavy Fortification Use a weapon with Briliant Energy. Thats the only other way beside using Dispell magic, Anti-magic fields or some Genius way of removeing the item from Your target.
Loren Pechtel 03-02-04, 11:15 PM	Originally posted by PennDragon This Statement is Dead and Flat out Wrong In fact it does the Precise opposite of the Above Statement. in fact if you want to Sneak attack someone with Heavy Fortification Use a weapon with Briliant Energy. Thats the only other way beside using Dispell magic, Anti-magic fields or some Genius way of removeing the item from Your target. What you are quoting says it ignores the armor and shield bonuses. It doesn't say it ignores other enchantments on the armor/shield.
PennDragon 03-02-04, 11:36 PM	Well the Fortification Enchantment produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. [25% ~ Light Fortification] .,. [75% ~ Medium Fortification] .,. [100% ~ Heavy Fortification]. And A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) The effect of the Fortification Enchantment is a nonliving matter and is ignored by the brilliant energy weapon Enchantment.
Inigo Carmine 03-03-04, 12:33 AM	Originally posted by PennDragon The effect of the Fortification Enchantment is a nonliving matter and is ignored by the brilliant energy weapon Enchantment. Originally posted by PennDragon Well the Fortification Enchantment produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. Always bad to contradict yourself. even moreso in the same post. The fortification ability is not "non-living matter", it is a magical effect bestowed upon the wearer of the armor/shield. The "non-living matter" part is just flavor text anyways. It explicitly states what brilliant energy ignores: From the SRD Armor bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) The armor bonus granted by the armor is ignored, but none of the other effects are ignored. And in case you're still not convinced:a ring of protection is "non-living matter" that gives a deflection bonus to AC, but you'll note that brilliant evergy does not bypass that. Heh, on a side note, because it is cut and paste from 3.0, apparently brilliant energy does not bypass shield bonuses to AC. I would houserule it otherwise in my campaign though.
Deep Blue 9000 03-03-04, 12:34 AM	Just because the Brilliant Energy weapon passes through the armor doesn't mean it ignores the armor's special abilities. The statement you quoted from the SRD states that it ignores armor boni to AC and only AC. It mentions nothing about any of the armor's other abilites, and therefore does not bypass them. Its probably unrealistic that it functions this way, but that's how the rules are. EDIT: I guess Inigo beat me to it.
PennDragon 03-03-04, 07:49 AM	Inigo Carmine i'm going to cut into you Quotation and try to answer it in bits. Originally posted by Inigo Carmine Always bad to contradict yourself. even moreso in the same post. Actually i'm not, but i will admit that there is a Glitch. Personally I think the Glitch is that deflection is on the list of things that are Not ignored. But thats My oppinion, which is neighter here Nor there, and has no value on this subjetc. The fortification ability is not "non-living matter", it is a magical effect bestowed upon the wearer of the armor/shield. The "non-living matter" part is just flavor text anyways. It explicitly states what brilliant energy ignores: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the SRD Armor bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Congratulation, You have just made this Enchantment that much better, by saying The "non-living matter" part is just flavor text anyways. because Creatures and Objects you were not able to hit with this enchantment have now been added to things you can hit. A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead ["non-living matter"], constructs ["non-living matter"], and objects [Also "non-living matter"]. So this isen't just flavor text, it actually have a purpose [To make this a +5 Enchantment ability, rather then the Ultimative weapon Enchantment of all times.] The armor bonus granted by the armor is ignored, but none of the other effects are ignored. You are wrong, Since the other effects are "non-living matter" they are ignored, the only Armor & Shield Enchantment that isen't ignored is the Shield Enchantment Arrow Catching and thats only Because it grants a Deflection AC bonus. And in case you're still not convinced:a ring of protection is "non-living matter" that gives a deflection bonus to AC, but you'll note that brilliant evergy does not bypass that. I have Noticed it, and thats why I think it is a glitch or oversight that Deflection is still on the list of things that isen't ignored. The Rest of the Bonuses thats not ignored is the Creatures natural ability to avoid being hit or "Natural" Deflection [living matter], rather then the Deflection thats created by magic [non-living matter]. Originally posted by Deep Blue 9000 Just because the Brilliant Energy weapon passes through the armor doesn't mean it ignores the armor's special abilities. Actually i think it does, the Brilliant Energy Weapon Enchantment is a +4 Weapon Enchantment, only surpassed by the Vorpal Weapon Enchantmen [+5 Enchantment Bonus: Grants the ability to kill most Creatures in 1 hit], So whats wrong with a Weapon Enchantment [+4 bonus] that 100% ignores your manufactured Armor and all the funny stuff you thought would protect you, That says: You will have to rely on your own Natural abilities to get out of this mess. [ It cost you 36.000 gp to get a +1 Enhancement bonus and H. Fortification and it cost your opponent 50.000 to get a +1 Enhancement bonus and Brilliant Energy. ]
Tenzhi 03-03-04, 08:03 AM	By virtue of the fact that the protection offered by the Fortification is magical energy, it cannot be non-living matter.
PennDragon 03-03-04, 08:30 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi By virtue of the fact that the protection offered by the Fortification is magical energy, it cannot be non-living matter. What you are saying is that it is living matter, just by the fact that it is magical energy. I disagree. I would say it cannot be living matter since it is a magical energy [Magical Force]. Unless you will argue that Wizards are dapling in the art of creating and Destroying life on lvl 1, By casting Magic Missile or Mage Armor, magical energy to Damage or Protect Enemies or Allies.
Archangel 03-03-04, 08:53 AM	Could you cast dispel magic on the first round to make it a non-magic and then on the second round cast a targeted attack spell on the armor? Now since it is non-magical it doesn't get a save or does it?
Kyuketsukiouji 03-03-04, 09:00 AM	By your reasoning, a Briliant Energy Flaming sword will still do fire damage to someone with epic armor of Fire Invulnerability. Which makes little sense. Armor with Fortification modifies the wearer of the armor. The fact that your weapon has Brilliant Energy does not suddenly strip me of my armor. If this was true, I could make Armor of the Bear that has a +2 constitution bonus, and my max hp would vary depending on the weapon used against me.
Tenzhi 03-03-04, 09:16 AM	Originally posted by PennDragon What you are saying is that it is living matter, just by the fact that it is magical energy. No, what I am saying is that it is not matter at all, living or otherwise, by virtue of the fact that it is energy. The last time I checked, energy was not a form of matter.
Derren S. 03-03-04, 09:35 AM	Originally posted by Archangel Could you cast dispel magic on the first round to make it a non-magic and then on the second round cast a targeted attack spell on the armor? Now since it is non-magical it doesn't get a save or does it? It would get a save because it is worn. But it is non-magical for 1w4? rounds and in that time you can shatter it or whatever.
PennDragon 03-03-04, 09:37 AM	Originally posted by Archangel Could you cast dispel magic on the first round to make it a non-magic and then on the second round cast a targeted attack spell on the armor? Now since it is non-magical it doesn't get a save or does it? 1.) Yes You can cast dispel magic on the first round to make it a non-magic and then on the second round cast a targeted attack spell on the armor? 2.) If it is unattended it gets no Saves, if it is attended it gets a save using the Attending characters Saving throw Bonuses. [ It is written in the PHB (3.5) Page 166 ] Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji By your reasoning, a Briliant Energy Flaming sword will still do fire damage to someone with epic armor of Fire Invulnerability. Which makes little sense. Armor with Fortification modifies the wearer of the armor. The fact that your weapon has Brilliant Energy does not suddenly strip me of my armor. If this was true, I could make Armor of the Bear that has a +2 constitution bonus, and my max hp would vary depending on the weapon used against me. Kyuketsukiouji. i can't find the epic armor of Fire Invulnerability or Fire Invulnerability in the DMG or Epic Level handbook ... If you are Refering to the Elemental Resistance you can place on your armor even the Epic ones ... functions Similar to the resist Energy Spell ... So even though Brilliant energy weapons Go through your manufactured armor With fun stuff, your Elemental Resistances will absorbe their intended amout of Damage. Althoug the weapon goes throught is like Air you are still wearing it and it still have it's abilities, Even though it will not stop the Weapon. Originally posted by Tenzhi No, what I am saying is that it is not matter at all, living or otherwise, by virtue of the fact that it is energy. The last time I checked, energy was not a form of matter. No thats not what i'm saying ... What i'm not getting is : Are you for that a Brilliant Energy Weapon can go through Heavy fortification as if it was not there or if you are agains. Don't thing i wan't to argue with you if you are on my Side :angel:
Tenzhi 03-03-04, 10:16 AM	Originally posted by PennDragon No thats not what i'm saying ... What i'm not getting is : Are you for that a Brilliant Energy Weapon can go through Heavy fortification as if it was not there or if you are agains. As the Fortification effect is magical energy, and is therefore not matter (either living or - more importantly for this argument - non-living), then the Brilliant Energy effect cannot ignore it. On the other hand, Brilliant Energy technically ignores the effects of Bracers of Armor (which protects the wearer via a magical field of force) unless one takes into account that the reason Brilliant Energy ignores armor bonuses is "because it passes through armour." To summarize: I'm unsure whether Brilliant Energy should ignore Fortification, but I'm positive that the Fortification effect isn't non-living matter.
Vorpal Warhammer 03-03-04, 10:32 AM	Originally posted by PennDragon So this isen't just flavor text, it actually have a purpose [To make this a +5 Enchantment ability, rather then the Ultimative weapon Enchantment of all times.] [/I]] Why are you trying to balance a +5 armor ability by increasing the power of a +4 weapon ability? :confused: Originally posted by PennDragon I have Noticed it, and thats why I think it is a glitch or oversight that Deflection is still on the list of things that isen't ignored. The Rest of the Bonuses thats not ignored is the Creatures natural ability to avoid being hit or "Natural" Deflection [living matter], rather then the Deflection thats created by magic [non-living matter].[/I]] What about an Amulet of Natural Armor? Would that be ignored?
dantedarkstar 03-03-04, 10:43 AM	Originally posted by PennDragon If you are Refering to the Elemental Resistance you can place on your armor even the Epic ones ... functions Similar to the resist Energy Spell ... So even though Brilliant energy weapons Go through your manufactured armor With fun stuff, your Elemental Resistances will absorbe their intended amout of Damage. Great. So magical effects the armor provides are not negated by Brilliant Energy. Fortification is exactly the same. It provides magical effect, which protects your vitals from hit. Simple. magical effect => not bypassed material barrier => bypassed (note that regular enhancement bonus to armor is just an enhancement of material barrier, so that's why it's bypassed anyway). Althoug the weapon goes throught is like Air you are still wearing it and it still have it's abilities, Even though it will not stop the Weapon. Yup. It doesn't stop the weapon by the virtue of manufactured armor you wear. It's magical force field. And magical effects aren't bypassed by this, as you said yourself. Or do you say that fortification enchantment creates a material steel plating around your throat, on your eyes, etc ? :P
kreynolds 03-03-04, 10:45 AM	Originally posted by PennDragon Althoug the weapon goes throught is like Air you are still wearing it and it still have it's abilities, Even though it will not stop the Weapon. Sounds a lot like fortification. Can you explain why you still gain the benefits of fire resistance against a brilliant energy flaming weapon, but don't gain the benefits of crit negation against a brilliant energy weapon?
PennDragon 03-03-04, 10:55 AM	Amulet of Natural Armor: This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet. Vorpal Warhammer it does not ignore Amulet of Natural Armor? Because the Amulet enhances what is already there, it does not create some sort of Force-Field or what ever you want to call it.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-03-04, 11:02 AM	Yes, but what the amulet of natural armor reinforces is something that Brilliant Energy is specifically stated to bypass. Fortification, on the other hand, isn't. Just as Brilliant Energy weapons aren't able to bypass Elemental resistance.
lanilifar 03-03-04, 11:30 AM	Yes, but what the amulet of natural armor reinforces is something that Brilliant Energy is specifically stated to bypass. Actually you have it backwards. Brilliant Energy is specifically stated as NOT bypasing natural armor. Do brilliant energy weapons bypass bracers of armor, a shield spell, an interposing hand, or a ring of force shield? If you rule yes, then it should also bypass the Fortification protection. If you rule no, then Fortification still works too.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-03-04, 11:33 AM	*rereads the description* *feels stupid* Right. No ignoring natural armor either. No ignoring Fortification, or Energy Resistance, or anything else it doesn't say it does.
Naeron 03-03-04, 11:34 AM	Brilliant Energy: A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. The description specifies what it ignores "non-living matter" this means that it does not ignore living matter and it also does not ignore magical effects (e.g. deflection bonuses) and then further clarifies that this means Armour bonuses to AC and that the weapon cannot affect undead, constructs and objects. Nowhere does it suggest that it ignores magical effects conferred on the armours wearer so it will not negate fortification. Fortification specifically states that a) it is magical and b) it affects the wearer. There is therefore no support for the argument that brilliant energy's ability to ignore armour bonuses to AC covers ignoring a magical effect on the wearer. As an amulet of natural armour specifies " This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5" then Brilliant energy would not bypass it as it does not bypass natural armour or magical effects.
Derren S. 03-03-04, 11:39 AM	May I steal the quote for a short time?, Thanks. Originally posted by Naeron []Brilliant Energy: A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. Nothing about other enchantments than AC, so brilliant energy bypasses AC and only AC. Fortification does still work.