Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RadicalTaoist 05-15-05, 12:41 PM	Ra-Tiel and I got into a friendly debate over Arcane Spell Failure on the Psionics board, but decided to put it on hold since it was getting off topic both on that board and in that thread (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=418433). So I revived it here and will discuss it further with Ra-Tiel. Feel free to join in. :) The point I was trying to present is that casters already have powerful defenses. Combine the AC of a fighter with mirror image, stoneskin, displacement, ... could prove extremely, if not too powerful a defense. And about the OBVIOUS powercreep of the PrCs from the more recent supplements I don't say anything... Even with those potent defenses I don't see mages in the front lines. I see them casting blur and stoneskin on barbs or summoned creatures and letting them go to the front lines. And the wizard still can't meet melee character ACs - no fighting defensively, for example, or Heavy Armor Optimization feats, or levels in Invisible Blade, so on so forth - so why worry? And what do you mean powercreep? I referred to the Dwarven Defender and the Champion of Corellon Larethian. Dwarven Defender came out with the Dungeon Master's Guide. CoCL came out recently with Races of the Wild, and is nowhere near overpowered. Both of these PrCs, along with others like Dervish, Duelist, etc. make melee characters harder to kill. They will be beyond the ACs of mages, period. Feats like Heavy Armor Optimization and Dwarven Armor Proficiency (I love you, Races of Stone) only further the gap. And really, before this, a mage can wind up only 5 points behind +5 full plate with bracers of armor. Armor will not count among their most powerful defenses. But as far as I know, an arcane caster (with the exception of the bard) is not meant to be the primary buffer. Why cast stoneskin on the fighter if you can simply disintegrate or phantasmal killer the enemy to death? For your example with the psion... in effect he's using a level 12 slot equivalent... for a spell I wouldn't also have a problem with that. The point is that the psion or caster can get his powers/spells dispelled/disjoined, while the full plate is barely impressed by that. And a fighter is not slinging around horrid wiltings or prismatic spheres at later levels.. he needs his AC and hp just to survive the frontlines, which a wizard does not. Therefore taking away ASF would imo provide arcane casters with an undeserved and unneeded bonus above and beyond what they already have.They already have +8 bracers of armor. They already have Twilight Leather Armor, or Mithral Twilight Chain Shirts. This bonus is insignificant and already there. Besides, mages make awesome buffers. Invisibility, Heroism, Polymorph, Mage Armor, Rage, Polymorph Any Object, Blur, etc. etc. the best list of other-buffs in the game. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the psion can wear full plate and not lose spellcasting and it doesn't destroy the game, then so can the wizard, imho. Armor is just not that significant without the HPs and the combat ability to back it up. Plus full plate hinders mobility and forces a wizard to use more spells just to get around. Hmm.... I think the system is already fairly easy. You put on armor, and for every spell with somatic components you try to cast you make a d% roll. I dislike the gamble taken with every spell. Having a setback that stays the same with every spell you cast is more my style. Well... perhaps "despise" was too strong a word.... "dislike" fits it probably better. I get headaches every time I must see those "wizard2, 6 different prestige classes 2" builds that just cherrypick common sense out of DnD. If I should dm DnD in the future, I'll most likely limit characters to - at most - 2 prestige classes... to stop this madness in my campaign. The thing is, those gish builds are actually not overpoweringly strong. They're awkward, take a while to come into their own, and are always playing catch-up. They're most useful in a party where all the other roles are covered, and the gish can help others spend less resources by seving as backup. Besides, that restriction (I hear it often) does nothing to hinder really broken builds that don't require complex multiclassing. The worst part of these builds is the save stacking, which can be dealt with by the fractional saves system in UA. Yes, prestige classes that grant bonuses without taking away something, without forcing the character into a focus. That's the critical design flaw of wizards and sorcerers, and to a lesser extend also clerics and psions: you loose almost nothing from entering a "+1 casting/manifesting" PrC. The lack of "sufficient" hit points is a good point of balance in my opinion. If a character could cast spells like a level20 wizard, had hp like a level20barbarian and you fight fights like a level20 fighter (rhetorically speaking), wouldn't that be a bit off? But having 4 attacks per round, casting spells like a level 17+ caster (including level 9 spells) and having hp like a monk or cleric is already too much in my opinion.If you gain all those benefits at 20th level, the casters have been laughing with their ninth level spells for 3 levels, the melee types will have been laughing with their 4th attacks for 4 levels, and monks will look at you pityingly if you try to go toe to toe with anything without extensive buffing. Hell, it'll be hard to get reach monk HP in the first place. You have a character that does everything, but unlike the Cleric or Druid, does it worse. Maybe, but the "straight melee types" don't have stoneskin, moment of prescience, mind blank, or disjunction at their disposal. So if they did, armor wouldn't be that big a deal, right? In my opinion, d20 already simplifies too much. I just compare 3rd ed crpgs with ad&d crpgs. For argument's sake Neverwinter Night with Baldur's Gate 2. I really liked the tactical depth of needing several protection and anti-protection spells in the later fights. I think the new system is far too streamlined and simplified for the masses. I mean, roleplayers are not idiots (at least those that I know, no offense intended!!!). Why the need to simplify everything and all? I also made the highly sarcastic comment to my friends of the new (imaginary) supplement Complete Session Description: Find out how to resolve a whole gaming session with a single dice roll. Roll d20+the average party level against a DC equal to the CR of the encounter. Depending on the amount you suceeded or failed the check by, you can determine the outcome of each encounter. How many resources have been spent by the party (details for hp, items and spells/pps can be found in tables in the appendix) and if and how PCs died can also be found out with a simply die roll. The web enhancement, Complete Campaign, extends that with rules on how to solve a whole campaign with a few simplified d20 rolls. to show where oversimplification could lead us.Then we hold two different approaches to the game and its design, then. I like depth without complications and streamlined play without being boringly simple. The d20 system has both to a decent degree. You have to mix your defenses up (energy resistances, regeneration, damage reduction, three different saves, spell resistance, etc.) and likewise your counters to those defenses. But it's quick and easy to do so. General assumption: the less charts that need to be consulted on a regular basis, the better. Figuring out more by rolling less dice is nice too. That's no offense against you or your suggestion at all. I hope you didn't take it as such. Your idea with a reduced casterlevel might be good, but what for spells whose effect doesn't depend on casterlevel? Like the various "prismatic" spells? Do you mean that you become unable to cast spells if you fall below the minimum casterlevel needed to do so (say, you cannot cast a fireball if your casterlevel drops below 5) or that you simply cast spells at reduced efficiency (akin to an inverse-style "practiced spellcaster")? I meant the example in bold. You go below CL 5, no more fireballs for you. For those wondering, my suggestion was: All arcane casters gain a penalty to their caster level equal to the armor check penalty of the armor they are wearing as long as they wear that armor (this may force them below the necessary caster level to cast their highest level spells). Use Magic Device and Concentration are affected by armor check penalties (just to get the Artificer). Psions have their own balance issues. Note that I'm a proud supporter of psionics and think that they are NOT overpowered or unbalanced. What I want to say is that a psion cannot simply go with the "fire and forget" approach a wizard shows. An arcane caster (and especially a sorcerer) has much more staying power and stamina than any psionic character can ever hope to achieve.As you say later: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Their both low BAB lowest HP classes. Their methods of casting have similar effects but work through different mechanics. However, they are not so different as to make me think that what does not break the Psion will not break the Wizard. I don't have any problems with frontline combatants putting on inch-thick armors because they need the AC just to survive. The casters are usually in the back playing artillery or providing other kinds of magical support. So they don't need that high an AC. I've made the experience that the moment a wizard or sorcerer needs AC, either a) he ran into an ambush, b) the frontliners have botched their job, c) the frontliners are already dead, and/or d) neglected his own means to defend himself (misschance spells, summons, invis, and such) and deserves to feel the pain. Case by case, a) then armor saves the party precious resources trying to keep the mage alive, b) I hate to punish characters for the mistakes of their party members, c) I also hate supporting mechanics that make TPKs likely, and d) I'm not sure 5 points of AC is likely to save him at this point. But what's good for the goose, is good for the gander. How would your players complain if you put a gish monster before them that has such a high AC that the fighter types need to roll a 17+ with their first attack, combined with DR 10/adamant and a 50% misschance? As opener, he has just disjoined much of your weapons and armor, and is now whipping your fighter's ass with his quarterstaff in melee. I guess your group would not be happy with that. Can this guy be built? Really? I've been build a lot of gishes and none of them will be that uber, this gish monster will likely have bard to monk HP and be really dispel-vulnerable. Besides, what do you mean by that AC? It won't be higher than any combat decent foes the PCs will be facing. I doubt a gish can reach Dragon ACs, for example. Thank you. I know, some sacred cows are best made into holy hamburgers, but ASF is one that should stay a cow, in my opinion. With horror I think of EarthDawn, where casters are not penalized for wearing armor. A high circle Nethermancer or Elementalist is truly gruesome to behold in combat... especially with a bonded heavy armor. Arcane casters are already powerful enough, I simply cannot see a reason why one should give them an additional benefit. And with "Still Spell" there is already a method of ignoring ASF even without a [cheesy] PrC [combo]. EarthDawn seems to have some crazy armors - it's not such a big deal in D&D without that So yeah, there's Still Spell. Plus, in shadow mage's Gish thread on the Character Optimization boards, SoulLord was kind enough to come up with a list of spells not needing S components. Here are more non sommatic spells. Players handbook 0 Light 1 Feather Fall 1 Hold Portal 1 True Strike 1 Ventriloquism 2 Blindness/Deafness 2 Blur 2 Darkness 2 Knock 3 Tongues 4 Dimension Door 4 Geas, Lesser 5 Contact Other Plane 5 Teleport 6 Geas/Quest 7 Phase Door 7 Power Word Blind 7 Teleport Object 7 Teleport, Greater 8 Charm Monster, Mass 8 Irresistible Dance 8 Power Word Stun 9 Mage's Disjunction 9 Power Word Kill 9 Prismatic Sphere 9 Teleportation Circle 9 Time Stop 9 Wail of the Banshee 9 Wish Miniatures handbook 2 baleful transposition 2 blades of fire 2 slide greater 1 benign transposition 1 slide Book of Vile Darkness 5 Resonating Resistance 4 Damning Darkness 3 Dread Word 3 Drown 1 Drug Resistance Draconomicon 8 Maddening whispers 7 Hiss of sleep 6 Aura of terror 5 Wings of air greater 5 Draconic Polymorph 2 Razor Fangs 2 scintilating scales 2 Wings of air Book of Exalted Deeds 8 Last Judgement (celestial) 7 Eladrin form 6 Wages of Sin (abstinence) 3 Warcry 2 Yoke of Mercy (abstinence) Complete Adventurer 4 Entangling Staff 2 Bladeweave 2 DaggerSpell Stance 2 Fly Swift 2 Sonic Weapon 1 Critical Strike 1 Expeditius retreat swift 1 Golem Strike 1 Guided Shot 1 Insightful feint 1 Masters Touch Complete Arcane 6 Brilliant Blade 2 Blades of Fire 1 Low light Vision These are all the spells they will cast unstilled. In other words, for the most part mages can already ignore asf anyways. Whispercast from Lords of Madness makes it even easier. What's the big deal removing it again? Or lowering it down to my suggestion? Streamlines the game, makes combat faster, sounds good to me. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 05-15-05, 10:17 PM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Ra-Tiel and I got into a friendly debate over Arcane Spell Failure on the Psionics board, but decided to put it on hold since it was getting off topic both on that board and in that thread (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=418433). So I revived it here and will discuss it further with Ra-Tiel. Feel free to join in. :) I'm already on it! ;) --- Even with those potent defenses I don't see mages in the front lines. I see them casting blur and stoneskin on barbs or summoned creatures and letting them go to the front lines. And the wizard still can't meet melee character ACs - no fighting defensively, for example, or Heavy Armor Optimization feats, or levels in Invisible Blade, so on so forth - so why worry? Well, in my opinion each class should have their weaknesses. And allowing the wizard to cast unhindered in armor just rises the issue of creating a second cleric: level 9 spells, full armor, and nifty bonuses from various PrCs without really giving up anything. A frontline character needs every point of attack bonus he can get, so I guess many barbarians or fighters will use "combat expertise" only in very dire circumstances. But a wizard - if at all - only needs to make touch attacks, and therefore looses much less than a melee-type character for using expertise for maximum. --- And what do you mean powercreep? I referred to the Dwarven Defender and the Champion of Corellon Larethian. Dwarven Defender came out with the Dungeon Master's Guide. CoCL came out recently with Races of the Wild, and is nowhere near overpowered. Both of these PrCs, along with others like Dervish, Duelist, etc. make melee characters harder to kill. They will be beyond the ACs of mages, period. Feats like Heavy Armor Optimization and Dwarven Armor Proficiency (I love you, Races of Stone) only further the gap. And really, before this, a mage can wind up only 5 points behind +5 full plate with bracers of armor. Armor will not count among their most powerful defenses. Powercreep? Just today I took a look at The Lords of Madness. I don't know what the designers have been smoking, but it must have killed MANY brain cells.... I simply have no other explanation for feats like "disintegration finesse", "focused antimagic" and especially "disjunction ray". Just compare that alone to the MM1. Add in Libris Mortis with crazy spells like avasculate and you know what I mean. The recent supplements aren't only more options, they are also more power. I guess because if the new stuff wasn't more "1337" or "KEWL" or "r0xx0rs" then nobody would probably buy the books. Just compare the power level of a "core only" wizard to a core+CArc+CAdv+LiM wizard and you should also recognize the obvious. --- They already have +8 bracers of armor. They already have Twilight Leather Armor, or Mithral Twilight Chain Shirts. This bonus is insignificant and already there. Besides, mages make awesome buffers. Invisibility, Heroism, Polymorph, Mage Armor, Rage, Polymorph Any Object, Blur, etc. etc. the best list of other-buffs in the game. But bracers of armor +8 are not "full plate +5" and "tower shield +5". If wizards had the same AC as fighters, but with mirror image, stoneskin and displacement added, the fighter would be even less useful than he already is. And consider, if there's no opposing caster with a good dispel, the closecombat enemies have NO chance against such a buffed wizard. --- What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the psion can wear full plate and not lose spellcasting and it doesn't destroy the game, then so can the wizard, imho. Armor is just not that significant without the HPs and the combat ability to back it up. Plus full plate hinders mobility and forces a wizard to use more spells just to get around. But you do realize that the psionic characters are only playing with the PHb variant or books? There are only ~170 general powers for psions, but over 300 spells for wizards in the PHb alone. Add the other supplements and you have casters easily outperform psions and wilders. Also, a psion simply has no equivalences to the various prismatic spells, or weird, or horrid wilting or wail of the banshee or mass avasculate or ... --- I dislike the gamble taken with every spell. Having a setback that stays the same with every spell you cast is more my style. That's a fault of the DnD spell casting system in itself. It's very much "all or nothing". Either you penetrate SR, or you fail. Either you make the save, or you don't. Either you succeed at your ASF check, or you don't. I don't object to your suggestion as a house rule, but I'd rule that no material, spell or enhancement could reduce that penalty. --- The thing is, those gish builds are actually not overpoweringly strong. They're awkward, take a while to come into their own, and are always playing catch-up. They're most useful in a party where all the other roles are covered, and the gish can help others spend less resources by seving as backup. Besides, that restriction (I hear it often) does nothing to hinder really broken builds that don't require complex multiclassing. The worst part of these builds is the save stacking, which can be dealt with by the fractional saves system in UA. As I've said above, each class should have their recognizable weaknesses. For that I also really hate the "headband of conscious effort". I'd never allow it if I were DM. Or would you in return grant an item to fighters that allows them 1/day to make an attack roll instead of a will save? I guess you wouldn't... Casters are already being given so many bonuses and give-aways in the official supplements, it's not even funny any more. There already are possibilities for a caster to get around ASF, namely the twilight enhancement (which being from BoED could have some pretty much damn intensive RP requirement) and the Spellsword PrC. Or falling back on "no S component" spells, as you've pointed out with your quoted table. If a character really wants to get around ASF, he should have to expend his resources on it, and not hope for the DM to throw a bone at him. Or would you give fighters a good will save progression and SR against compulsions because 1 player complained and whined about "how they are SOOOOOO battlehardened, and yet run away from a simple fear spell"? --- If you gain all those benefits at 20th level, the casters have been laughing with their ninth level spells for 3 levels, the melee types will have been laughing with their 4th attacks for 4 levels, and monks will look at you pityingly if you try to go toe to toe with anything without extensive buffing. Hell, it'll be hard to get reach monk HP in the first place. You have a character that does everything, but unlike the Cleric or Druid, does it worse. But the pure caster will have less hp and a much worse BAB and saves. The pure fighters will be envious at the various spells I have at my disposal to get around hindrances, especially the movement related spells, without having to resort to magic items, saving money for weapon/armor enhancements and more spells for my spellbook. And the monk will be pretty impressed by my versatility, that i'm not completely useless when my highest level spells are gone, and that against lesser opponents I can hold my own quite well. --- So if they did, armor wouldn't be that big a deal, right? With allowing arcane casters to use armor without any drawbacks, you're not only going to take away one of the last few benefits of melee characters, but you also step on those classes that get that bonus as part of their class abilities like the warmage, the warlock, or the battle sorcerer. You're giving one of their most useful abilities to all the other arcane classes without giving them something else in return. So they've just lost a feature. It is like giving out turning to every class with divine spells, like favored soul and druid. You'd just have taken away something from the cleric. --- Then we hold two different approaches to the game and its design, then. I like depth without complications and streamlined play without being boringly simple. The d20 system has both to a decent degree. You have to mix your defenses up (energy resistances, regeneration, damage reduction, three different saves, spell resistance, etc.) and likewise your counters to those defenses. But it's quick and easy to do so. General assumption: the less charts that need to be consulted on a regular basis, the better. Figuring out more by rolling less dice is nice too. I also like it simple, but I hate it if flavor or style is sacrificed on the altar of simplification. And that seems to happen to DnD. I just noticed how much the English language has changed, having read Shakespear's "Romeo and Juliet" recently. A similar thing is going on with DnD, and I don't know if it's for its better. The most recent example: I read a thread on the monsters board recently which stated that the bodak has lost its "flashbacks" and the slaadi their "mutations". Easy mechanics? Yes! Flavorfull? No! --- I meant the example in bold. You go below CL 5, no more fireballs for you. For those wondering, my suggestion was: All arcane casters gain a penalty to their caster level equal to the armor check penalty of the armor they are wearing as long as they wear that armor (this may force them below the necessary caster level to cast their highest level spells). Use Magic Device and Concentration are affected by armor check penalties (just to get the Artificer). Ok, now I get it. So, if you put on a fullplate you'd only have a CL of 14, which means: only level 7 spells for you. If you'd go by my suggestion from above, I can really see to like that. And since your normal CL is equal to your HD, "practised spellcaster" wouldn't help you out here. --- As you say later: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Their both low BAB lowest HP classes. Their methods of casting have similar effects but work through different mechanics. However, they are not so different as to make me think that what does not break the Psion will not break the Wizard. But psionics have a very different flavor. They are drawing that power from their own mind, not from manipulating the magical world around them. They are much more introverted, with many powers only being "personal" instead of "touch", for example. And see my point on what options are available to the wizard that are closed for the psion, from above. --- Case by case, a) then armor saves the party precious resources trying to keep the mage alive, b) I hate to punish characters for the mistakes of their party members, c) I also hate supporting mechanics that make TPKs likely, and d) I'm not sure 5 points of AC is likely to save him at this point. But a wizard has to plan for the worst. And just taking a class's main weakness away is in my opinion a bad idea. Casters are (usually) dependend on their spells and active buffs, not on their static equipment. You shouldn't change that. --- Can this guy be built? Really? I've been build a lot of gishes and none of them will be that uber, this gish monster will likely have bard to monk HP and be really dispel-vulnerable. Besides, what do you mean by that AC? It won't be higher than any combat decent foes the PCs will be facing. I doubt a gish can reach Dragon ACs, for example. Ok... I was exaggerating.... :blush: --- EarthDawn seems to have some crazy armors - it's not such a big deal in D&D without that Oh god, yes! Bonded armors with high thread ranks can be pretty crazy! As are some armor enhancements in DnD. --- So yeah, there's Still Spell. Plus, in shadow mage's Gish thread on the Character Optimization boards, SoulLord was kind enough to come up with a list of spells not needing S components. There you have a valid way of ignoring ASF right here. Or why not take the approach of the EQ2 rpg and take the "A" away from "ASF" and introduce it as a penalty for ALL casters, regardless of arcane or divine? --- These are all the spells they will cast unstilled. In other words, for the most part mages can already ignore asf anyways. Whispercast from Lords of Madness makes it even easier. What's the big deal removing it again? Or lowering it down to my suggestion? Streamlines the game, makes combat faster, sounds good to me. The point is, the game is currently designed to have the wizard spend resources on getting around ASF if he simply cannot live without a fullplate. If you took ASF away, you'd free up resources for a character which he could then spend on items he normally wouldn't have been able to acquire. --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist Being up for 22h and really tired. :zzz: === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 05-16-05, 09:57 PM	Well, in my opinion each class should have their weaknesses. And allowing the wizard to cast unhindered in armor just rises the issue of creating a second cleric: level 9 spells, full armor, and nifty bonuses from various PrCs without really giving up anything. d4s for hit dice and low base attack is pretty weak I find. And in my opinion each character should be able to overcome their weaknesses with sufficient expenditure of resources. My problem is that the ASF mechanic is awkwardly designed, and requires all sorts of weird stuff to lower a percentage chance. My suggestion to work it into the caster level mechanic makes it simpler to deal with. Not necessarily easier, as it's pretty easy to overcome already, I've demonstrated. A frontline character needs every point of attack bonus he can get, so I guess many barbarians or fighters will use "combat expertise" only in very dire circumstances. But a wizard - if at all - only needs to make touch attacks, and therefore looses much less than a melee-type character for using expertise for maximum. Frontline Characters can put their attack bonus to uses just like any other resource - how much of a barb's damage potential comes from Power Attack? And you can't use Expertise unless you attack, which means only quickened spells. Plus, you're thinking of this in terms of only power for casters. What if a melee type wants some Sorceror power for True Strikes, a Phantasmal Mount, Wraithstrike every now and then, etc. Powercreep? Just today I took a look at The Lords of Madness. I don't know what the designers have been smoking, but it must have killed MANY brain cells.... I simply have no other explanation for feats like "disintegration finesse", "focused antimagic" and especially "disjunction ray". Just compare that alone to the MM1. Add in Libris Mortis with crazy spells like avasculate and you know what I mean. Oh, that book's WONDERFUL for DMs! We need our powercreep too. I can make PCs cry with this puppy. :schemes: The recent supplements aren't only more options, they are also more power. I guess because if the new stuff wasn't more "1337" or "KEWL" or "r0xx0rs" then nobody would probably buy the books. Just compare the power level of a "core only" wizard to a core+CArc+CAdv+LiM wizard and you should also recognize the obvious. That's Powercreep for Casters. For Melee characters? They need it - you need Races of Stone, Complete Warrior, and Complete Adventurer - Planar Handbook and the XPH helps a lot too - just to supply melee types with the resources to match the power of the core cleric, druid, and wizard. What I'm saying is that if you think you can twink a gish up, it is possible, with the right resources, to make a focused melee character to put any gish in his place. But bracers of armor +8 are not "full plate +5" and "tower shield +5". If wizards had the same AC as fighters, but with mirror image, stoneskin and displacement added, the fighter would be even less useful than he already is. And consider, if there's no opposing caster with a good dispel, the closecombat enemies have NO chance against such a buffed wizard. Ah thanks, I'd forgotten about animated tower shields and mithral small shields. More ways for arcanists to bypass ASF. The closecombat enemies will just grapple. I have yet to make a gish who doesn't use that Contingency on a D. Door when grappled (okay, one exception: Magic Jar when you die can be amazingly useful). And as I said before, deepwardens, dwarven defenders, mindspies, Bear Warriors, Warminds, and a bunch of other PrCs can get ACs well out of the range of anything a gish could hope for. But you do realize that the psionic characters are only playing with the PHb variant or books? There are only ~170 general powers for psions, but over 300 spells for wizards in the PHb alone. Add the other supplements and you have casters easily outperform psions and wilders. Sounds like a reason to remove spells. And I'm not complaining when they bring in new powers. Also, a psion simply has no equivalences to the various prismatic spells, or weird, or horrid wilting or wail of the banshee or mass avasculate or ... Sounds like a reason to nerf spells. Honestly, is that Mass Avasculate so much more balanced when the caster is wearing Bracers of Armor +8 and an animated shield than if the caster's wearing mechanus gear armor (restricting movement to 10ft.) and holds the shield in his hand, saving that lone bonus? That's a fault of the DnD spell casting system in itself. It's very much "all or nothing". Either you penetrate SR, or you fail. Either you make the save, or you don't. Either you succeed at your ASF check, or you don't. Well, it's part of what makes the system streamlined. Partial effects are tricky to adjudicate (I have a few ideas). As I've said above, each class should have their recognizable weaknesses. For that I also really hate the "headband of conscious effort". I'd never allow it if I were DM. Or would you in return grant an item to fighters that allows them 1/day to make an attack roll instead of a will save? I guess you wouldn't... Once. Per. Day. :twitch: Casters are already being given so many bonuses and give-aways in the official supplements, it's not even funny any more. There already are possibilities for a caster to get around ASF, namely the twilight enhancement (which being from BoED could have some pretty much damn intensive RP requirement) and the Spellsword PrC. Or falling back on "no S component" spells, as you've pointed out with your quoted table. Then nerf the spells and items. I repeat, armor wearing is a drop in the bucket compared to what you're really complaining about. Besides, these restrictions are bad for noncasters who want a little magic power. My fighters want in on this Touch of Idiocy stuff! It sounds like fun. It doesn't even have to be full plate. I play a low level (ECL 2) psion. He wears studded leather armor, masterwork. He has no proficiency in it but it's ACP 0 so no big deal. Why can't my low level wizards wear masterwork studded armor without risking spell failure? It's not exactly like they own the game then. If a character really wants to get around ASF, he should have to expend his resources on it, and not hope for the DM to throw a bone at him. Or would you give fighters a good will save progression and SR against compulsions because 1 player complained and whined about "how they are SOOOOOO battlehardened, and yet run away from a simple fear spell"? I'd give them lots of feats and items, so that they can invest resources and get around that weakness - if they're willing to pay the price to do so. But the pure caster will have less hp and a much worse BAB and saves. The pure fighters will be envious at the various spells I have at my disposal to get around hindrances, especially the movement related spells, without having to resort to magic items, saving money for weapon/armor enhancements and more spells for my spellbook. And the monk will be pretty impressed by my versatility, that i'm not completely useless when my highest level spells are gone, and that against lesser opponents I can hold my own quite well. If the pure caster is an Initiate of the Seven Veils, he can whack foes with a kaleidoscopic doom, or the 'rape a psywar 1/day power' as I like to call it. Pure fighters will always be envious as the game is designed to screw them. A serious barb will be envious when he's not rendering my save-or-dies obsolete with 200, 300, 400 dmg/round full attacks. A pure monk will be mildly concerned about the fact that you don't die instantly when grappled, but rather in a few rounds. With allowing arcane casters to use armor without any drawbacks, you're not only going to take away one of the last few benefits of melee characters, but you also step on those classes that get that bonus as part of their class abilities like the warmage, the warlock, or the battle sorcerer. You're giving one of their most useful abilities to all the other arcane classes without giving them something else in return. So they've just lost a feature. It is like giving out turning to every class with divine spells, like favored soul and druid. You'd just have taken away something from the cleric. Hmm. That's the best argument I have heard ever for maintaining ASF in some form. I don't want to nail the mages alone though, but I'll get to that later. I still think the % failure chance is poorly done. The most recent example: I read a thread on the monsters board recently which stated that the bodak has lost its "flashbacks" and the slaadi their "mutations". Easy mechanics? Yes! Flavorfull? No! Dangit, when something has great flavor with difficult mechanics, you come up with easy new mechanics, not scrap the whole thing.:rant::nonono: I don't object to your suggestion as a house rule, but I'd rule that no material, spell or enhancement could reduce that penalty. Ok, now I get it. So, if you put on a fullplate you'd only have a CL of 14, which means: only level 7 spells for you. If you'd go by my suggestion from above, I can really see to like that. And since your normal CL is equal to your HD, "practised spellcaster" wouldn't help you out here. I disagree. I worked ASF into the caster level mechanic so as to streamline the means by which one can get by it. I mean, c'mon, he could wear -1 ACP armor and then grab an orange ioun stone. So mithral would no longer have that ASF percentage decrease (redundant, it already lowers ACP) and the twilight enchantment could be discarded. Let's face it, if a mage wants to take six feats (heavy/medium/light armor proficiency, practiced spellcaster, heavy armor optimization, greater heavy armor optimization) so he can walk around in full plate with full caster level, I can allow that. Six bloody feats, none of which are likely to get you into a PrC. Likewise, it's not a balance disaster if low level mages can wear masterwork studded leather. Or mid level mages wear mithral chain shirt. Oh yeah, and the CL penalty only applies to spells with somatic components of course. All those spells on the list could be cast with no CL penalty. Ditto for Stilled spells. But a wizard has to plan for the worst. And just taking a class's main weakness away is in my opinion a bad idea. Casters are (usually) dependend on their spells and active buffs, not on their static equipment. You shouldn't change that. The main weakness is the worst hit points in the game. And static equipment (rods, orange ioun stones, rings of wizardry, etc.) can make mages pretty powerful. Oh god, yes! Bonded armors with high thread ranks can be pretty crazy! As are some armor enhancements in DnD. Which of these armor enhancements cannot be totally owned by already existing spells? Keep that measly 19 SR, I'll take Spell Turning thank you. There you have a valid way of ignoring ASF right here. Or why not take the approach of the EQ2 rpg and take the "A" away from "ASF" and introduce it as a penalty for ALL casters, regardless of arcane or divine? Now this is a definite possibility, I'd like to come up with a separate mechanic for the divine casters though. Kind of close to what I wanted with ACP affecting Concentration and Use Magic Device checks. The point is, the game is currently designed to have the wizard spend resources on getting around ASF if he simply cannot live without a fullplate. If you took ASF away, you'd free up resources for a character which he could then spend on items he normally wouldn't have been able to acquire. Fair enough. I still feel my suggestion is a simpler and cleaner way of organizing how resources must be spent to cast in plate. Being up for 22h and really tired. :zzz: Good lord, man, that's bad for one's health. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 05-18-05, 06:56 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Seems we're pretty alone in our discussion... :( --- d4s for hit dice and low base attack is pretty weak I find. And in my opinion each character should be able to overcome their weaknesses with sufficient expenditure of resources. My problem is that the ASF mechanic is awkwardly designed, and requires all sorts of weird stuff to lower a percentage chance. My suggestion to work it into the caster level mechanic makes it simpler to deal with. Not necessarily easier, as it's pretty easy to overcome already, I've demonstrated. d4 for hit points, crappy base attack, powerful spells, and NO armor. Perhaps the ASF as it stands now is awkwardly, but in my opinion it has still its place. Also, WotC seems to develope a taste for the d100 (compare: XPHb -> wilder class -> enervation). :thinks: Perhaps DnD 4 will be used to introduce the "new-d%-formerly-known-as-d20" system? ;) Another way of streamlining ASF would be to make it a d20 check. The SF is now a number between 1 and 20, and you just roll a d20. Nothing more, nothing less. The newASF would just be the oldASF/5. Then you are done with that d% thing. --- Frontline Characters can put their attack bonus to uses just like any other resource - how much of a barb's damage potential comes from Power Attack? And you can't use Expertise unless you attack, which means only quickened spells. I know, but what about those wonderfull spell Tensers transformation? Just get yourself a nice long duration attack spell with a melee touch attack (a thing like flame dagger, only with more OOMPF!), and attack right away. With a running displacement, stoneskin... this shouldn't be that hard a problem. And I bet those new supplements like CAdv or RoEberron also have some nifty spells that power up gish characters even more. --- Plus, you're thinking of this in terms of only power for casters. What if a melee type wants some Sorceror power for True Strikes, a Phantasmal Mount, Wraithstrike every now and then, etc. Then make it a feat. Combat Spell Mastery Prerequisites: BAB 6+, able to cast spells no higher than 3rd level Benefit: For the spells you can cast, you can ignore up to 10% of arcane spell failure. This benefit only extends to 1 class that grants you spells. Special: You can take this feat multiple times. It's effects stack in the following way: you can either ignore an additional 10% of arcane spell failure, OR you can now cast spells of the next higher level with a reduced spell failure chance. But I see no need in giving even more power to the full casters. --- Oh, that book's WONDERFUL for DMs! We need our powercreep too. I can make PCs cry with this puppy. :schemes: Yes, but a targeted MDj against a party member from a CR13 creature is WAY TO POWERFUL!!!. Are the designers nuts? --- That's Powercreep for Casters. For Melee characters? They need it - you need Races of Stone, Complete Warrior, and Complete Adventurer - Planar Handbook and the XPH helps a lot too - just to supply melee types with the resources to match the power of the core cleric, druid, and wizard. What I'm saying is that if you think you can twink a gish up, it is possible, with the right resources, to make a focused melee character to put any gish in his place. I was referring to the powercreep for all casters. I am dissatisfied with CArc, CAdv and the spells contained within them. And the PrCs. And the items. The next person telling me how unbalanced v3.0 was will get shot with my vulcan-hammergun. --- Ah thanks, I'd forgotten about animated tower shields and mithral small shields. More ways for arcanists to bypass ASF. The closecombat enemies will just grapple. I have yet to make a gish who doesn't use that Contingency on a D. Door when grappled (okay, one exception: Magic Jar when you die can be amazingly useful). And as I said before, deepwardens, dwarven defenders, mindspies, Bear Warriors, Warminds, and a bunch of other PrCs can get ACs well out of the range of anything a gish could hope for. As you've said: expended resources. What does a +5 mithril twilight fullplate and a +5 animated towershield cost? If you could cast spells without ASF = without having to spend resources bypassing ASF, you could go shopping on scrolls, wonderous items, and what not. Things you would normally have not been able to buy. --- Sounds like a reason to remove spells. And I'm not complaining when they bring in new powers. I AM in the camp "spells need a deathstar-laser style nerf". Did you realize how the Arcane Archer PrC was COMPLETELY sold out with spells in CAdv? A ranger with the right spells was a better Arcane Archer than a fighter with actual levels in the PrC. :nonono: :noway: :thumbsdow --- Sounds like a reason to nerf spells. Honestly, is that Mass Avasculate so much more balanced when the caster is wearing Bracers of Armor +8 and an animated shield than if the caster's wearing mechanus gear armor (restricting movement to 10ft.) and holds the shield in his hand, saving that lone bonus? If the wizard was able to buy a scroll of avasculate, mass with the money he saved because he didn't need any special materials/enhancements to bypass [the now nonexistent] ASF, then I'd say: you're screwed. And Bracers of Armor +8 are no comparison to a +5 full plate (8<13, after all). --- Well, it's part of what makes the system streamlined. Partial effects are tricky to adjudicate (I have a few ideas). Then why not make ASF a simple d20 check, like I've suggested above? --- Once. Per. Day. :twitch: And the item costs only Four. Thousand. Goldpieces. A level 20 caster could buy a dozen and have it's benefits the whole day. And you still haven't answered my question. Would you allow an item for fighters which only cost 4000gp and that allowed them to make an attack roll in place of a Will Save? Wasn't it always the risk as an arcane caster to become the target of a disintegrate or a finger of death? Now it essentially boils down to "do I have this item, or am I screwed?" In earlier times you had to be planning, taking precautions for combat. I even remember the good old v3.0 times, when SR really was a defense, and not only some nuissance to get rid of with a spell like assay resistance. --- Then nerf the spells and items. I repeat, armor wearing is a drop in the bucket compared to what you're really complaining about. Besides, these restrictions are bad for noncasters who want a little magic power. My fighters want in on this Touch of Idiocy stuff! It sounds like fun. See my feat suggestion from above. And I really would like to see a MASSIVE spell nerf for v3.5. Seriously. --- It doesn't even have to be full plate. I play a low level (ECL 2) psion. He wears studded leather armor, masterwork. He has no proficiency in it but it's ACP 0 so no big deal. Why can't my low level wizards wear masterwork studded armor without risking spell failure? It's not exactly like they own the game then. But psions aren't nearly as overloaded as arcane casters. No spheres of ultimate destruction, no black swords of darkness, no avasculate, mass, no chain contingency and no summon elemental monolith for them. I really don't think ASF would fit the flavor of psionics. I know you're talking about low level characters, but isn't it common agreement that casters have to be underpowered and vulnerable at first to gain the spells they have past level 13? --- I'd give them lots of feats and items, so that they can invest resources and get around that weakness - if they're willing to pay the price to do so. Good for your group. But I personally would it make only a bit easier to get around ASF, I would NEVER simply remove it. WotC has already implemented several ways to reduce/bypass ASF into the game, the players/characters need simply to use them. --- If the pure caster is an Initiate of the Seven Veils, he can whack foes with a kaleidoscopic doom, or the 'rape a psywar 1/day power' as I like to call it. Pure fighters will always be envious as the game is designed to screw them. A serious barb will be envious when he's not rendering my save-or-dies obsolete with 200, 300, 400 dmg/round full attacks. A pure monk will be mildly concerned about the fact that you don't die instantly when grappled, but rather in a few rounds. How does a barbarian do that much damage - WITHOUT cherrypicking feats from 7 supplements, having 4 different PrCs and relying on magical items with questionable effects? The most I can think of right now is: Str: 18base+5level+5book+6belt=34total+8rage= 42total ^= +16mod Damage: +5 holy undead bane greatsword: 2d6base+5magic+2bane+24str+2d6holy+2d6ba ne=6d6+31 (2d6+29 vs non-evil non-undead) Now power attack for 20 results in an additional +30 to damage: 6d6+61, but you only have 1d20+5magic+2bane+16str=1d20+23 for your attack roll. Not enough for that dracolich... --- Hmm. That's the best argument I have heard ever for maintaining ASF in some form. I don't want to nail the mages alone though, but I'll get to that later. I still think the % failure chance is poorly done. What would you give to those classes I mentioned as an exchange for that now one of their most useful class features is a common thing that all casters have access to? And I still stand with my suggestion of making ASF a d20 check. --- Dangit, when something has great flavor with difficult mechanics, you come up with easy new mechanics, not scrap the whole thing.:rant::nonono: I've read it in the monsters forum. The people there guessed the reason the designers removed that was gamebalance. A CR 8 creature granting 1 free round to the whole party wouldn't really be CR8. As wouldn't be slaadi that suddenly gained additional abilities beyond their CR. --- I disagree. I worked ASF into the caster level mechanic so as to streamline the means by which one can get by it. I mean, c'mon, he could wear -1 ACP armor and then grab an orange ioun stone. So mithral would no longer have that ASF percentage decrease (redundant, it already lowers ACP) and the twilight enchantment could be discarded. Let's face it, if a mage wants to take six feats (heavy/medium/light armor proficiency, practiced spellcaster, heavy armor optimization, greater heavy armor optimization) so he can walk around in full plate with full caster level, I can allow that. Six bloody feats, none of which are likely to get you into a PrC. Likewise, it's not a balance disaster if low level mages can wear masterwork studded leather. Or mid level mages wear mithral chain shirt. No, now I must disagree. I would not allow for ioun stones or "practiced spellcaster" to negate that penalty. Simply wouldn't. No way. Not in my universe. And why the armor optimizations? All a caster would need with your suggestion would be the appropriate armor proficiency, read: 3 feats at most. --- Oh yeah, and the CL penalty only applies to spells with somatic components of course. All those spells on the list could be cast with no CL penalty. Ditto for Stilled spells. No problem with that. So that the ASF CL penalty would be dependent on the spell components the spell requires. No objections from me here. --- The main weakness is the worst hit points in the game. And static equipment (rods, orange ioun stones, rings of wizardry, etc.) can make mages pretty powerful. I meant: greater mage armor instead of mundane armor, shield instead of a mundane shield[/i], spells instead of mundane weapons,... --- Which of these armor enhancements cannot be totally owned by already existing spells? Keep that measly 19 SR, I'll take Spell Turning thank you. Things like "soulfire" for example? --- Now this is a definite possibility, I'd like to come up with a separate mechanic for the divine casters though. Kind of close to what I wanted with ACP affecting Concentration and Use Magic Device checks. ACP? "Arcane Concentration Penalty"? I personally would do away with the concentration check if the caster is hit in combat and instead tweak it back to 2E. You take a single point of damage, you waste the spell. Because I cannot see how a wizard could cast any spell while a dragon is chewing off his legs. Concetration checks can reach ungodly limits these days, with even the barbarian from above having a hard time ruining a spell for this wizard, considering that he usually has to get through mirror image, displacement, and stoneskin first. Concentration: 1d20+23ranks+3con+3skill focus+10item=1d20+39, avg result: 50. average damage from the barbarian from above: 2d6+44 with PA for 10pts. --- Fair enough. I still feel my suggestion is a simpler and cleaner way of organizing how resources must be spent to cast in plate. I also like your suggestion, either reduce CL or make it a d20 check. But I'd still advise against allowing for ways to raise your CL again. Because then, the CL penalty wouldn't be a drawback at all and you'd have missed your goal, in my opinion. --- Good lord, man, that's bad for one's health. I know... just came back from a DnD session :D (simply couldn't resist). --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 05-19-05, 10:13 AM	Seems we're pretty alone in our discussion... :( Feh, their loss. d4 for hit points, crappy base attack, powerful spells, and NO armor. Perhaps the ASF as it stands now is awkwardly, but in my opinion it has still its place. Also, WotC seems to develope a taste for the d100 (compare: XPHb -> wilder class -> enervation). :thinks: Perhaps DnD 4 will be used to introduce the "new-d%-formerly-known-as-d20" system? ;)God, I'd hate that. Larger tables to consult! :eek: :gah: Another way of streamlining ASF would be to make it a d20 check. The SF is now a number between 1 and 20, and you just roll a d20. Nothing more, nothing less. The newASF would just be the oldASF/5. Then you are done with that d% thing. Well, my problem is not the dice rolled but the random failure chance, absolute randoms just plain suck. It's like the natural 1s and 20s problem in the level 1 commoner vs level 20 fighter scenario. 1 out of every 20 attacks the commoner makes will hit no matter how protected the fighter is, and no matter how high the fighter's bonus is 1 out of every 20 attacks against even a commoner will miss, how stupid is that? I houserule that in my games btw. That's why I prefer a penalty instead of another dice rolled. Less dice rolled = good thing. I know, but what about those wonderfull spell Tensers transformation? Just get yourself a nice long duration attack spell with a melee touch attack (a thing like flame dagger, only with more OOMPF!), and attack right away. With a running displacement, stoneskin... this shouldn't be that hard a problem. And I bet those new supplements like CAdv or RoEberron also have some nifty spells that power up gish characters even more.Indeed they do. But they're still not as gamebreaking as a focused caster. And a lot of new spells can be shared with other party members for great team play. Then make it a feat. But I see no need in giving even more power to the full casters. Poor design. A limit in the prerequisites is awkward, just say the feat affects only spells of 3rd level or lower. Also, to get the benefits of the heavier armors a melee character has to spend a lot of feats. Good for fighters, but it still costs feats, any melee characters most important resource for different options. Plus it's still using the random-chance mechanic I dislike, so I'd translate it to my caster level penalty mechanic. But a good idea though. Yes, but a targeted MDJ against a party member from a CR13 creature is WAY TOO POWERFUL!!!. Are the designers nuts? OK, I'll admit this. There have been worse cases of CR mismanagement tho, far worse. I am dissatisfied with CArc, CAdv and the spells contained within them. And the PrCs. And the items. The next person telling me how unbalanced v3.0 was will get shot with my vulcan-hammergun. I like Complete Adventurer. Of all the Completes, it had nothing overpowered, broken, or really abuseable. It also provided a lot of cool options to character types that needed it (monks, fighters, rangers, combat rogues, etc.). Kinda like Complete Warrior without the HH and FB. Complete Arcane however...thought bottle? :nonono: Blam, Blam, my friend. Let them have it. However, the melee characters were a lot weaker in 3.0 (still weak but *less* so). My problems with 3.0 were not so much balance as terrible design, like 3.0 psionics for instance, wtf? Casting with Con as a stat? Moles whipping high level psywars in psionic combat? And then there were a lot of tricky spell wordings, and such... As you've said: expended resources. What does a +5 mithril twilight fullplate and a +5 animated towershield cost? If you could cast spells without ASF = without having to spend resources bypassing ASF, you could go shopping on scrolls, wonderous items, and what not. Things you would normally have not been able to buy.Well lessee, that's 36k gp for the enhancement bonus and 9k for the mithral workings, 1,650 gp for the full plate itself, comes to 46,650 gp total. In comparison, bracers of armor +8 is 5 points of AC bonus lower but works against incorporeal touch attacks, has no movement reduction and costs 64k gp. Total saved with the armor: 19,350 gp. You can probably buy lotsa good stuff with that, not an incredible amount at the high levels though. Anyone can use a +5 animated towershield. Now bracers of armor as far as I can tell were designed for monks and in (on?) their hands it really shines. I AM in the camp "spells need a deathstar-laser style nerf". Did you realize how the Arcane Archer PrC was COMPLETELY sold out with spells in CAdv? A ranger with the right spells was a better Arcane Archer than a fighter with actual levels in the PrC. :nonono: :noway: :thumbsdow That's two of us. However, none of the spells in the CAdv were broken or overpowered (with the possible exception of Wraithstrike, but I have a stealth nerf planned for that puppy:D). The Ranger needed the power boost. And the Arcane Archer was always a suboptimal PrC. No spellcasting progression is forgiveable when all the other cool abilities can be used more than once a day! If the wizard was able to buy a scroll of avasculate, mass with the money he saved because he didn't need any special materials/enhancements to bypass [the now nonexistent] ASF, then I'd say: you're screwed. And Bracers of Armor +8 are no comparison to a +5 full plate (8<13, after all). Again, this strikes me as a case of their not being a balance issue if there are no broken spells like avasculate, mass. (Note: I don't have the LM so I don't know this one in particular) Then why not make ASF a simple d20 check, like I've suggested above? Frankly, I wondered why they didn't do this in the first place when all the % chances were multiples of 5. And the item costs only Four. Thousand. Goldpieces. A level 20 caster could buy a dozen and have it's benefits the whole day. And you still haven't answered my question. Would you allow an item for fighters which only cost 4000gp and that allowed them to make an attack roll in place of a Will Save? Ah, there's the problem right there: insufficient expenditure of resources! Raise that puppy's price. I would make that item for fighters, but you'd be seeing a price around 70k gp. I even remember the good old v3.0 times, when SR really was a defense, and not only some nuissance to get rid of with a spell like assay resistance.Well, if they're willing to spend resources (including precious in-action rounds in which the dragon could pwn them) then I sez fine, but I don't recognize this assay resistance you speak of. I really would like to see a MASSIVE spell nerf for v3.5. Seriously. Sign me up, brothah. But psions aren't nearly as overloaded as arcane casters. No spheres of ultimate destruction, no black swords of darkness, no avasculate, mass, no chain contingency and no summon elemental monolith for them. I really don't think ASF would fit the flavor of psionics.Just saying I don't think the last two examples would qualify as broken by my standards. I know you're talking about low level characters, but isn't it common agreement that casters have to be underpowered and vulnerable at first to gain the spells they have past level 13? How about the game is fun and balanced and appropiately challenging at all levels? Wouldn't that be great? As for epic...Lemme get back to you on that. Good for your group. But I personally would it make only a bit easier to get around ASF, I would NEVER simply remove it. WotC has already implemented several ways to reduce/bypass ASF into the game, the players/characters need simply to use them. Fair enough, I simply feel ASF needs to streamlined, and drawbacks to wearing defensive equipment applied to all the casters in some way or removed outright. How does a barbarian do that much damage - WITHOUT cherrypicking feats from 7 supplements, having 4 different PrCs and relying on magical items with questionable effects? Well, he does have to cherrypick feats and substitution levels from 7 different supplements at least. Like I said, melee characters need the powercreep that caster's don't deserve. Probably needs some spellcasting first. I'll tell you what he doesn't do, though: he doesn't put holy or undead bane down when he could put speed and possibly keen instead. And he doesn't forget the potion of enlarge person. If you want to see some barb full attack optimization let's head to the CO boards and I will bring out the RAGE. What would you give to those classes I mentioned as an exchange for that now one of their most useful class features is a common thing that all casters have access to? If you're referring to the melee classes, I've been planning to boost their power anyways. I can also give them the Dwarven Defender, the Champion of Corellon Larethian, the Warforged Juggernaut...oh wait, didn't they already have those? No, now I must disagree. I would not allow for ioun stones or "practiced spellcaster" to negate that penalty. Simply wouldn't. No way. Not in my universe. And why the armor optimizations? All a caster would need with your suggestion would be the appropriate armor proficiency, read: 3 feats at most. Then we must agree to disagree, for I believe that if they want to pay the price, then they can get the benefit. I mean c'mon, that's 4 feats absolute minimum (Practiced Spellcaster is vital if you want to cast any high level spells). That's a lot of options. What can a pure caster do with 4 feats? Qualify for PrCs, make mad metamagic comboes, etc. The armor optimizations are to decrease the ACP further and also raise the AC bonus, and they require BAB +4 and +8 as prereqs respectively, so they're hard to qualify for. Things like "soulfire" for example? You mean Death Ward? True, that's Cleric territory, but you see my point. ACP? "Arcane Concentration Penalty"? I personally would do away with the concentration check if the caster is hit in combat and instead tweak it back to 2E. You take a single point of damage, you waste the spell. Because I cannot see how a wizard could cast any spell while a dragon is chewing off his legs.A single point of damage? I can see a wizard casting a spell after being whacked by a stick. Why tweak it back to 2E, please, we have left a lot of 2E behind with good reason. Now again I am in favor of letting them make the significant investment and get the significant return, what you are referring to is Concentration DCs being too low, well I can fix that. I also like your suggestion, either reduce CL or make it a d20 check. But I'd still advise against allowing for ways to raise your CL again. Because then, the CL penalty wouldn't be a drawback at all and you'd have missed your goal, in my opinion. If they have to pay a price for wearing the armor at full CL, then my goal has been reached. After all they can do that now. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
DisposableHero_ 05-19-05, 11:29 AM	@RadicalTaoist: Seems we're pretty alone in our discussion... :( Maybe if the posts weren't so long you'd get more interest :D Maybe the title doesn't draw people interested in the argument... But I think its more likely that the two of you are covering most of what needs to be said without any help. Just a couple of things though. I have always rolled % chances divisble by 5 on d20s, I assumed everyone else did too, thats not a rule change its a matter of effienct book keeping. As for my opinion, I tend to agree with RT, the removal of ASF while it would reduce dice rolling, would not have a profound effect on the power of casters at high levels. That said it would help them out a ton at low levels, where they need a bit of help. To be honest, casters don't need to suck at low levels to justify them being awsome at high levels, they need to be good at low levels and good at high levels just like everyone else should be. ASF adds needless die rolling to a situation that can easily already have too much of it (my group banned a thri-kreen 4 weapon fighting fighter/dervish, not because he was too good, but because his full attacks took too long to resolve). The legitimate argument though, is what do you do for bards, war mages, warlocks, spells swords etc, who were already ignoring ASF with their class features. My question is, what abilities would fit to compensate them, both in terms of flavor and in terms of power level? By RT above I refer to Radical Taoist, as it just occured to me that both of you could be referred to by RT
Ra-Tiel 05-19-05, 02:24 PM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Feh, their loss. I guess so. At least DisposableHero_ has given a comment... --- God, I'd hate that. Larger tables to consult! :eek: :gah: Me too! I'm still traumatized by the single character creation session of Hârnmaster I've had the "pleasure" to experience. --- Well, my problem is not the dice rolled but the random failure chance, absolute randoms just plain suck. It's like the natural 1s and 20s problem in the level 1 commoner vs level 20 fighter scenario. 1 out of every 20 attacks the commoner makes will hit no matter how protected the fighter is, and no matter how high the fighter's bonus is 1 out of every 20 attacks against even a commoner will miss, how stupid is that? I houserule that in my games btw. That's why I prefer a penalty instead of another dice rolled. Less dice rolled = good thing. But isn't almost everything in DnD "absolute random"? Attack rolls, saves, skill checks... all are "all or nothing" (regarding skills at least to a certain degree). I wouldn't houserule that out. Because the monsters usually have higher attack rolls than the AC of the characters. Just see the ogre barbarian in the v3.5SRD. He(?) is CR7, yet has an attack bonus of +16. What level 7 character has an AC of 26+ without spending most or even all of his wealth on defensive items? And many characters won't go over the 20 in AC. Without the 5% chance of simply missing, these creatures would get incredible powerful. Or just think Beholder. "+9 ranged touch attack", add in the elite array and ability increases for HD and that could become "+13 ranged touch attack". I haven't seen many characters with a touch AC much higher than 14. --- Indeed they do. But they're still not as gamebreaking as a focused caster. And a lot of new spells can be shared with other party members for great team play. The question is: will the casters really "waste" their spell slots to improve their party members when the new attack spells are that powerful that they can instead devestate the whole encounter with only a few spells? --- Poor design. A limit in the prerequisites is awkward, just say the feat affects only spells of 3rd level or lower. Also, to get the benefits of the heavier armors a melee character has to spend a lot of feats. Good for fighters, but it still costs feats, any melee characters most important resource for different options. Plus it's still using the random-chance mechanic I dislike, so I'd translate it to my caster level penalty mechanic. But a good idea though. Hey, I was just giving a hip-shot. How can I know what I think before I can see what I've posted? :P I added the prerequisites so that a level 2 wizard wasn't running around in chain shirt or such. I just wanted to answer your point of a melee type character taking 1 or 2 levels in sorcerer or wizard. But you get my idea? Perhaps you could make it 1 feat that allows spells with "personal range" and up to 3rd level be cast without ASF? --- OK, I'll admit this. There have been worse cases of CR mismanagement tho, far worse. Worse cases? Considering that according to the v3.5DMG 10-12 creatures of CR13 are an appropriate encounter for a level 20 party, I can see the faces of the players when you tell them each to make 3 saves for all of his magical items against disjunction... And IIRC, they can even use their other eye rays in the same round, but I might be wrong here. Sorry, but this is the most ridiculus and broken feat I've seen published in a while from WotC. --- I like Complete Adventurer. Of all the Completes, it had nothing overpowered, broken, or really abuseable. It also provided a lot of cool options to character types that needed it (monks, fighters, rangers, combat rogues, etc.). Kinda like Complete Warrior without the HH and FB. Complete Arcane however...thought bottle? :nonono: I completely agree... CArc is "powercreep incarnated". I only have seen CAdv from a friend and taken a look at it in my FLGS. I really like the idea of the "Shadowbane Inquisitor"... the idea really intrigued me, but I don't want to play my 4th paladin in a row. And I seriously try to forget that there is such a thing as "thought bottle"... really.... what are we talking about? --- Blam, Blam, my friend. Let them have it. However, the melee characters were a lot weaker in 3.0 (still weak but *less* so). My problems with 3.0 were not so much balance as terrible design, like 3.0 psionics for instance, wtf? Casting with Con as a stat? Moles whipping high level psywars in psionic combat? And then there were a lot of tricky spell wordings, and such... I like the sound.... blamblamblamblamblam... 1200 "blams" per minute :D Err.... I really liked v3.0 psionics. They were a bit weak due to the low number of pps, but I liked the new mechanic and the different powers. I think I've read the PsiHB cover to cover in one day. Btw, what is the point of getting Dex and/or Int on damage? Not much worse than casting with Con as primary score. Dex to damage defeats the purpose of "Weapon Finesse" and Int to damage defeats the point of a high BAB, hitting the enemy where you know it will hurt him. --- Well lessee, that's 36k gp for the enhancement bonus and 9k for the mithral workings, 1,650 gp for the full plate itself, comes to 46,650 gp total. In comparison, bracers of armor +8 is 5 points of AC bonus lower but works against incorporeal touch attacks, has no movement reduction and costs 64k gp. Total saved with the armor: 19,350 gp. You can probably buy lotsa good stuff with that, not an incredible amount at the high levels though. Anyone can use a +5 animated towershield. Now bracers of armor as far as I can tell were designed for monks and in (on?) their hands it really shines. So, if bracers of armor are already better, and everyone can use an animated shield, what's the point of wearing armor? --- That's two of us. However, none of the spells in the CAdv were broken or overpowered (with the possible exception of Wraithstrike, but I have a stealth nerf planned for that puppy:D). The Ranger needed the power boost. And the Arcane Archer was always a suboptimal PrC. No spellcasting progression is forgiveable when all the other cool abilities can be used more than once a day! "The ranger needed the power boost"??? Sorry, but: wtf? Let's see: 2 good saves, full bab, divine spells up to level 4, 6+Int skill points, very good skill list, class abilities en masse, animal companion (at reduced strength, but nontheless!), proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and with light armors. In my opinion, the v3.5 ranger is TOO STRONG. Considering that the fighter hasn't changed at all, the "new" ranger really did NOT need that powerup. And no matter what, a PrC should still grant a benefit that can NOT be replicated with a normal spell/feat/whatever. Or would you like to see the Iot7fW's kaleidoscopic doom ability available as a spell for all casters? Additionally, I really liked the Arcane Archer. If you go fighter1/wizard5/eldritch knight4/arcane archer 10 you have a quite dangerous ranged combat specialist. You even get 7th level arcane spells in addition to BAB 17 and relative good HPs. My next character in Eberron (if my current paladin falls and if my DM allows it) will be a half-elf using the above build. --- Again, this strikes me as a case of their not being a balance issue if there are no broken spells like avasculate, mass. (Note: I don't have the LM so I don't know this one in particular) I've miss-quoted from my memory... it's not "avasculate, mass", it's "avascular mass". Avasculate is somthing like the following: you make a ranged touch attack up to close range, if you succeed, the target looses 1/2 of its current HPs rounded down. Then it must succeed on a Fort Save or be stunned for 1 round. Avascular mass does the same, but also animates the expelled blood vessels so that they entangle creatures in a 20ft radius centered on the original target. A character can evade being entangled with a successful Ref Save. All in all, Libris Mortis was pretty much totally sick. Plain and simple. Also, the dreaded "true necromancer" class with 14 levels came from that. CL 16 in arcane and divine spellcasting, +4 CL with all necromancy spells, create undead and create greater undead as SLAs each 2/day and finally wail of the banshee, energy drain and horrid wilting as SLAs each 1/day. :nonono: --- Frankly, I wondered why they didn't do this in the first place when all the % chances were multiples of 5. I don't know... but that would at least eliminate the need for a d% and would streamline things to a d20-style mechanic. --- Ah, there's the problem right there: insufficient expenditure of resources! Raise that puppy's price. I would make that item for fighters, but you'd be seeing a price around 70k gp. I'd really like to see the "headband of conscious effort" also at at least 10 times its current price. --- Well, if they're willing to spend resources (including precious in-action rounds in which the dragon could pwn them) then I sez fine, but I don't recognize this assay resistance you speak of. Assay Resistance is a spell from :rimshot: CArc! It has a casting time of 1 swift action, and grants you a +10 bonus on caster checks to penetrate the SR of one single target for 1round/level because you "can divine the weakness of the target's magical defense". Therefore: no bonus round for the dragon to rip the wizard to pieces. Again: :nonono: --- Sign me up, brothah. *signed* ;) --- Just saying I don't think the last two examples would qualify as broken by my standards. Why not? The elemental monoliths are pretty scary, and the ability to set off 3 spells of up to 8th level in a single contingency is extremely useful. Perhaps the last one isn't outright broken, but much to good to not want it. --- How about the game is fun and balanced and appropiately challenging at all levels? Wouldn't that be great? As for epic...Lemme get back to you on that. That would be a lifetime goal... bringing balance to the force...err... the DnD system. --- Fair enough, I simply feel ASF needs to streamlined, and drawbacks to wearing defensive equipment applied to all the casters in some way or removed outright. You must also consider the stereotype of wizardry in DnD: the bearded, robed old guy with a large book and a golem. It simply isn't: an old guy in shining armor hewing around with a greatsword and slinging spells. --- Well, he does have to cherrypick feats and substitution levels from 7 different supplements at least. Like I said, melee characters need the powercreep that caster's don't deserve. Probably needs some spellcasting first. I'll tell you what he doesn't do, though: he doesn't put holy or undead bane down when he could put speed and possibly keen instead. And he doesn't forget the potion of enlarge person. If you want to see some barb full attack optimization let's head to the CO boards and I will bring out the RAGE. In my opinion, all base classes should be valible from level 1 to 20. But that is only in a few cases (barbarian, bard, ranger, druid, monk). Fighter, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, paladin and rogue loose next to nothing from entering the right PrC asap. And the other classes from the splatbooks I didn't even consider (warlock, warmage, scout, swashbuckler,...). Therefore WotC throws us (as it seems) hardly balanced and playtested PrCs and feats, hoping we swallow the bone and stop complaining about how casters simply P-W-N melee characters. --- If you're referring to the melee classes, I've been planning to boost their power anyways. I can also give them the Dwarven Defender, the Champion of Corellon Larethian, the Warforged Juggernaut...oh wait, didn't they already have those? I was refering to the arcane caster classes that gain the ability to cast in some armors without ASF. Namely Warlock, Warmage, Battle sorcerer, Hexblade and PrCs like Spellsword. What would you give to them? --- Then we must agree to disagree, for I believe that if they want to pay the price, then they can get the benefit. I mean c'mon, that's 4 feats absolute minimum (Practiced Spellcaster is vital if you want to cast any high level spells). That's a lot of options. What can a pure caster do with 4 feats? Qualify for PrCs, make mad metamagic comboes, etc. The armor optimizations are to decrease the ACP further and also raise the AC bonus, and they require BAB +4 and +8 as prereqs respectively, so they're hard to qualify for. You mean Death Ward? True, that's Cleric territory, but you see my point. I would take soulfire any time over death ward. Once your spell is dispelled, you're out of luck, but my armor enhancement will come back in 1d4 rounds. I just need to manage to hold off the vampire/pale master/whatever long enough and I'll get back my protection automatically. And so far, I haven't seen a wizard casting death ward, but I agree: clerics are a whole new can of worms here. --- A single point of damage? I can see a wizard casting a spell after being whacked by a stick. Why tweak it back to 2E, please, we have left a lot of 2E behind with good reason. Now again I am in favor of letting them make the significant investment and get the significant return, what you are referring to is Concentration DCs being too low, well I can fix that. Ok, perhaps not a single point... But definitively not 40pts of damage or more. That ogre just "removed" ~70% of your HPs and you can stand there, casting your spells as if nothing had happened? :thinks: :noway: --- If they have to pay a price for wearing the armor at full CL, then my goal has been reached. After all they can do that now. I simply fail to see a reason why "practised spellcaster" or that ioun stone should help you. Let's say you're a fighter4/wizard16 (for argument's sake, ok?). With "practised spellcaster" you have a CL of 20. With that ioun stone you have 21. Now you wear an armor that reduces your CL by 5. Now you have a CL of 16, again. Why should the feat or the item increase that again? --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Ra-Tiel 05-19-05, 02:37 PM	Hi. === @DisposableHero_: Maybe if the posts weren't so long you'd get more interest :D Maybe the title doesn't draw people interested in the argument... But I think its more likely that the two of you are covering most of what needs to be said without any help. Just a couple of things though. But it is not really possible to shorten our posts without ignoring/not refering to the other's arguments. But I'm thankful for at least some comments from a third person. --- I have always rolled % chances divisble by 5 on d20s, I assumed everyone else did too, thats not a rule change its a matter of effienct book keeping. Why just did they leave it with the d% mechanic? I don't know, but I'll be strongly suggesting the d20 conversion for it to the groups I play with (not that we have a wizard or sorcerer running around in armor anyways). --- As for my opinion, I tend to agree with RT, the removal of ASF while it would reduce dice rolling, would not have a profound effect on the power of casters at high levels. That said it would help them out a ton at low levels, where they need a bit of help. To be honest, casters don't need to suck at low levels to justify them being awsome at high levels, they need to be good at low levels and good at high levels just like everyone else should be. ASF adds needless die rolling to a situation that can easily already have too much of it (my group banned a thri-kreen 4 weapon fighting fighter/dervish, not because he was too good, but because his full attacks took too long to resolve). I really don't believe that you can compare that 1 roll per spell with the full attack of such a MONSTER of character, but I can see your point. But what do you do about spells that you must check against SR, have a save and allow energy resistance? Are they too time-consuming, too? --- The legitimate argument though, is what do you do for bards, war mages, warlocks, spells swords etc, who were already ignoring ASF with their class features. My question is, what abilities would fit to compensate them, both in terms of flavor and in terms of power level? And that is a question I really would like to see answered. Considering how many classes you have that grant this benefit, I'd say it's easier to tweak ASF a bit instead of messing around with more than half a dozen classes and their abilities. That's yet another reason to keep ASF, even if not in the current form. Something that just now came to my mind: what about that you waste spells if you fail your concentration check against injury or while casting defensively? Do you want to change that, too? That's also an additional roll resulting in an "all or nothing" result. --- By RT above I refer to Radical Taoist, as it just occured to me that both of you could be referred to by RT No problem. I didn't notice you could perhaps refer to me. Didn't think of this. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Merestil Haye 05-19-05, 07:41 PM	*sticks his head in the thread.* Without wishing to address the meat of the discussion just yet, I'd like to offer a pointer and ask a couple of questions about your interpretation of things. Firstly, why the d% roll? Back when 3e first came out this was explained as differentiating between two kinds of "does it happen" rolls. One kind has all sorts of applicable modifiers. Attack rolls, skill rolls and saving throws all fall into this category, and are made on d20s, adding the various modifiers. The other kind has no modifiers applicable at all, and are made on D% - like the ASF roll. The designers opted to use different dice to head off people asking what abilities modified rolls like the ASF roll if it had been made on a d20. Secondly, a rules observation on the subject of animated shields. Quotes like thisAh thanks, I'd forgotten about animated tower shields and mithral small shields. More ways for arcanists to bypass ASF.andAs you've said: expended resources. What does a +5 mithril twilight fullplate and a +5 animated towershield cost?lead me to think that both of you believe that animated shields do not hinder the wielder when activated and floating around According to the SRD, ACP and ASF both apply to the wielder of a floating animated shield.A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.I read that to mean that the shield wielder suffers not only from ACP and ASF (assuming you use them) but if he is nonproficient suffers those penalties too. If I have misinterpreted your statements, I apologise. Lastly, in post 5 RadicalTaoist makes a small mistake in calculating the cost of mithral fullplate. Mithral items are automatically considered masterwork, thus the +150gp for making masterwork armour is not separately added. That's just anitpick though.
RadicalTaoist 05-22-05, 07:23 PM	TY to Merestil Haye for the nitpicks. Me too! I'm still traumatized by the single character creation session of Hârnmaster I've had the "pleasure" to experience. Haven't heard of this, is it one of those "common sense be damned we'll put EVERYTHING into our game!" systems? But isn't almost everything in DnD "absolute random"? Attack rolls, saves, skill checks... all are "all or nothing" (regarding skills at least to a certain degree). I wouldn't houserule that out. Because the monsters usually have higher attack rolls than the AC of the characters. Just see the ogre barbarian in the v3.5SRD. He(?) is CR7, yet has an attack bonus of +16. What level 7 character has an AC of 26+ without spending most or even all of his wealth on defensive items? And many characters won't go over the 20 in AC. Without the 5% chance of simply missing, these creatures would get incredible powerful. Or just think Beholder. "+9 ranged touch attack", add in the elite array and ability increases for HD and that could become "+13 ranged touch attack". I haven't seen many characters with a touch AC much higher than 14. Just because everything is random (well, most of it) doesn't mean I want to clutter up my sessions with rolling dice when it can be avoided. I use the houserule presented in the DMG where a natural 20 is resolved as a roll of 40 (then you add modifiers) and a natural 1 as a roll of -10. So if you've got an insane to hit bonus, you will not miss the commoner 1 out of 20 times. This still serves that purpose you describe (I know few PCs with touch ACs of 3). The question is: will the casters really "waste" their spell slots to improve their party members when the new attack spells are that powerful that they can instead devestate the whole encounter with only a few spells? Well, this depends on the party members. The current balance problem in D&D can be summarized as follows: The Wizard polymorphed into a nasty beasty is often stronger than the Fighter in humanoid form. However, the Fighter polymorphed into a nasty beasty is stronger than a Wizard as a nasty beasty. Balance Problem? The Cleric polymorphed into a nasty beasty is even stronger once he gets his Cleric buffs online, and as far as party resources go, the Wizard is better off summoning a nasty beasty (or in the case of Polymorph Any Object, turn a rock into a nasty beasty) since the Cleric doesn't have to heal it later. So the rest of the party has to bring some considerable stuff to be worthy of the Wizard's resources. However, this is a matter of nerfing spells that are too strong, and has nothing to do with our armor debate. The caster who focuses on casting (rather than armor as I allow) will be more likely to devestate encounters with crazy metamagic spell combos (fell draining chained Acid Splash anyone? negative level on up to 1 foe/CL no save for a 5th level spell slot, ranged touch attacks). Hey, I was just giving a hip-shot. How can I know what I think before I can see what I've posted? :P I added the prerequisites so that a level 2 wizard wasn't running around in chain shirt or such. I just wanted to answer your point of a melee type character taking 1 or 2 levels in sorcerer or wizard. But you get my idea? Perhaps you could make it 1 feat that allows spells with "personal range" and up to 3rd level be cast without ASF? It's a very nice idea. Implementing my idea would make it redundant, but it's a very nice idea. Worse cases? Considering that according to the v3.5DMG 10-12 creatures of CR13 are an appropriate encounter for a level 20 party, I can see the faces of the players when you tell them each to make 3 saves for all of his magical items against disjunction... And IIRC, they can even use their other eye rays in the same round, but I might be wrong here. Sorry, but this is the most ridiculus and broken feat I've seen published in a while from WotC. It's nasty, yes, and should be balanced by forcing it into the hands (err, eyes) of beholders of higher CR (read: higher HD prereqs). But there are indeed worse cases. (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=401129) Err.... I really liked v3.0 psionics. They were a bit weak due to the low number of pps, but I liked the new mechanic and the different powers. I think I've read the PsiHB cover to cover in one day. Btw, what is the point of getting Dex and/or Int on damage? Not much worse than casting with Con as primary score. Dex to damage defeats the purpose of "Weapon Finesse" and Int to damage defeats the point of a high BAB, hitting the enemy where you know it will hurt him. I'm not going back to that after the 3.5 XPH. All I'm sayin'. So, if bracers of armor are already better, and everyone can use an animated shield, what's the point of wearing armor? Actually, I proved that armor was better - but not so much better as to break the game in the hands of casters. "The ranger needed the power boost"??? Sorry, but: wtf? Let's see: 2 good saves, full bab, divine spells up to level 4, 6+Int skill points, very good skill list, class abilities en masse, animal companion (at reduced strength, but nontheless!), proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and with light armors. In my opinion, the v3.5 ranger is TOO STRONG. Considering that the fighter hasn't changed at all, the "new" ranger really did NOT need that powerup. LOL, you think the 3.5 Ranger is too strong? Please. Let's run that list by an optimization standpoint: An animal companion what will only serve as Cleave-fodder for foes past level 10. Use it as a scout, or maybe a mount (and it ain't no Paladin's mount either). Weak Will save, leaving him in the same place as a Fighter for saves (he gets high Reflex and Evasion at level 9, Fighters get tower shields) Divine Spells that are nice utility but not amazing (weaker than UMD, or bard spells) Terrain-dependent class abilities Is somehow expected to, like the monk, go toe to toe with a d8 HD, but with a far lower AC than the monk. If you want your ranger to live long, go archery, or go TWF with throwing weapons. The ranger is good at what he's good at. But too strong? Nowhere near close. And it's tempting indeed to PrC out of him past level 10 - it's ridiculously easy to get those equivalent class abilities or better. And no matter what, a PrC should still grant a benefit that can NOT be replicated with a normal spell/feat/whatever. Or would you like to see the Iot7fW's kaleidoscopic doom ability available as a spell for all casters? Sounds like an argument for giving the Arcane Archer some cool class abilities. Kaleidoscopic doom for all casters...*shudder* Additionally, I really liked the Arcane Archer. If you go fighter1/wizard5/eldritch knight4/arcane archer 10 you have a quite dangerous ranged combat specialist. You even get 7th level arcane spells in addition to BAB 17 and relative good HPs. Hey, you only get 4th level spells (unless the AA grants half caster progression as I suggested). All in all, Libris Mortis was pretty much totally sick. Plain and simple. Also, the dreaded "true necromancer" class with 14 levels came from that. CL 16 in arcane and divine spellcasting, +4 CL with all necromancy spells, create undead and create greater undead as SLAs each 2/day and finally wail of the banshee, energy drain and horrid wilting as SLAs each 1/day. :nonono: That's actually not as broken as a focused Wizard. Assay Resistance is a spell from :rimshot: CArc! It has a casting time of 1 swift action, and grants you a +10 bonus on caster checks to penetrate the SR of one single target for 1round/level because you "can divine the weakness of the target's magical defense". Therefore: no bonus round for the dragon to rip the wizard to pieces. Again: :nonono: Jeez, what's the spell level? Isn't a Quickened Lower Spell Resistance (Planar Handbook, total comes to an 8th level spell) good enough for people anymore? Why not? The elemental monoliths are pretty scary, and the ability to set off 3 spells of up to 8th level in a single contingency is extremely useful. Perhaps the last one isn't outright broken, but much to good to not want it. The elemental monoliths are okay, but the spell doesn't replace Summon Monster IX, is weaker than Greater Dragon Ally (Draconomicon) despite GDA's expensive material component, and doesn't come close to Gate. And Wizards are highly dependent on emergency preparations - they need stuff like that, the Simbul's Spell Matrix/Sequencer/Trigger, etc. Certainly more than they need broken ass spells Avasculate (fails Fort save against spell overpoweredness, is stunned for 1 round). You must also consider the stereotype of wizardry in DnD: the bearded, robed old guy with a large book and a golem. It simply isn't: an old guy in shining armor hewing around with a greatsword and slinging spells. First thing: the method I suggested doesn't make the bearded old guy any better at greatsword use, and still leaves the bearded robed guy better at spellcasting. Second thing: Stereotypes are boring. I was refering to the arcane caster classes that gain the ability to cast in some armors without ASF. Namely Warlock, Warmage, Battle sorcerer, Hexblade and PrCs like Spellsword. What would you give to them? I can't think of anything to give them (well, I know what a Spellsword would get under my system) so I'll keep ASF in a more streamlined form. That leaves the divine casters to nerf. Druids already have armor restrictions, so that leaves the Cleric. Somehow it always comes back to nerfing the Cleric. I would take soulfire any time over death ward. Once your spell is dispelled, you're out of luck, but my armor enhancement will come back in 1d4 rounds. I just need to manage to hold off the vampire/pale master/whatever long enough and I'll get back my protection automatically. And so far, I haven't seen a wizard casting death ward, but I agree: clerics are a whole new can of worms here. Both the armor (which I'll admit is superior) and the spell give the wizard the chance to survive and turn some wights into grave dust. Balance damage done by the wizard who wants to expend the resources to have that soulfire armor = 0. Ok, perhaps not a single point... But definitively not 40pts of damage or more. That ogre just "removed" ~70% of your HPs and you can stand there, casting your spells as if nothing had happened? :thinks: :noway: So increase Concentration DCs. I simply fail to see a reason why "practised spellcaster" or that ioun stone should help you. Let's say you're a fighter4/wizard16 (for argument's sake, ok?). With "practised spellcaster" you have a CL of 20. With that ioun stone you have 21. Now you wear an armor that reduces your CL by 5. Now you have a CL of 16, again. Why should the feat or the item increase that again? Whoah, hold on that math. I never said Practiced Spellcaster gets counted twice. In your example, he would be stuck with that CL of 16 and only 8th level spells (for the spells needing S components). He can find other means to raise his CL (such as a ring of arcane might) or to lower that armor's ACP. Let me illustrate: a Wiz20 wearin the same armor but with the Practiced Spellcaster feat would have a CL of 19, 20 if he grabs the ioun stone. See? Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Dunelord 05-22-05, 07:29 PM	A wizard can cast improved invisablity and fly and pretty much not get hit. Throw in one of those quickened and you can do it in the first round you act.
Ra-Tiel 05-23-05, 10:42 AM	<edit> WTF? This was posted when I was still typing? :confused: How? No matter, my full post is below this one now. Ignore this here and read the post below. Stupid boards.... _Ra-Tiel. </edit>
Ra-Tiel 05-23-05, 10:50 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Haven't heard of this, is it one of those "common sense be damned we'll put EVERYTHING into our game!" systems? Well, not exactly like that, but in character creation you need a d10000, and you random-generate everything. I wanted to play an apprentice smith, right now serving in the militia. The average attribute is 10. I had strength 7, a starsign that was giving me benefits for healing and spellcasting... :waits: :looloo: --- Just because everything is random (well, most of it) doesn't mean I want to clutter up my sessions with rolling dice when it can be avoided. I know what you mean, but I don't find it overly complicated or time robbing to roll the ASF once for each spell with somatic components you cast. Considering that you as wizard will never ever cast nearly as much spells as you fighter buddy will make attack rolls, I personally don't see a huge problem here. --- I use the houserule presented in the DMG where a natural 20 is resolved as a roll of 40 (then you add modifiers) and a natural 1 as a roll of -10. So if you've got an insane to hit bonus, you will not miss the commoner 1 out of 20 times. This still serves that purpose you describe (I know few PCs with touch ACs of 3). I hope you do that only for attack rolls, and not also for saves or skill checks? Chocobochicken had a good post in Regdar's about that common "house rules". --- Well, this depends on the party members. The current balance problem in D&D can be summarized as follows: The Wizard polymorphed into a nasty beasty is often stronger than the Fighter in humanoid form. However, the Fighter polymorphed into a nasty beasty is stronger than a Wizard as a nasty beasty. Balance Problem? The Cleric polymorphed into a nasty beasty is even stronger once he gets his Cleric buffs online, and as far as party resources go, the Wizard is better off summoning a nasty beasty (or in the case of Polymorph Any Object, turn a rock into a nasty beasty) since the Cleric doesn't have to heal it later. So the rest of the party has to bring some considerable stuff to be worthy of the Wizard's resources. As you said: depends on the party. But in a smaller party that has only a wizard and no other caster this could quickly get out of hand. --- However, this is a matter of nerfing spells that are too strong, and has nothing to do with our armor debate. The caster who focuses on casting (rather than armor as I allow) will be more likely to devestate encounters with crazy metamagic spell combos (fell draining chained Acid Splash anyone? negative level on up to 1 foe/CL no save for a 5th level spell slot, ranged touch attacks). Perhaps arcana evolved would be a good idea to look at. As far as I can tell (I have the book, but haven't had time to read through it), it has some good gish base classes. --- It's a very nice idea. Implementing my idea would make it redundant, but it's a very nice idea. Thank you. --- It's nasty, yes, and should be balanced by forcing it into the hands (err, eyes) of beholders of higher CR (read: higher HD prereqs). But there are indeed worse cases. (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=401129) Hmm... I haven't read through the thread, but it somehow reminds me of the "clockwork horrors" from MM2. The admantine horror had (at will!) Disjunction, disintegrate, and destruction, while being CR9... :rolleyes: --- I'm not going back to that after the 3.5 XPH. All I'm sayin'. I like the XPHb also much better than the v3.0 PsiHB, but back then I really liked the now outdated "old" psionics. --- Actually, I proved that armor was better - but not so much better as to break the game in the hands of casters. I thought you were talking about the benefits of the bracers compared to "mundane magical" armor. Sorry, my mistake. --- LOL, you think the 3.5 Ranger is too strong? Please. Let's run that list by an optimization standpoint: An animal companion what will only serve as Cleave-fodder for foes past level 10. Use it as a scout, or maybe a mount (and it ain't no Paladin's mount either). Weak Will save, leaving him in the same place as a Fighter for saves (he gets high Reflex and Evasion at level 9, Fighters get tower shields) Divine Spells that are nice utility but not amazing (weaker than UMD, or bard spells) Terrain-dependent class abilities Is somehow expected to, like the monk, go toe to toe with a d8 HD, but with a far lower AC than the monk. If you want your ranger to live long, go archery, or go TWF with throwing weapons. I've been playing a ranger in v3.0, and I've also played a fighter in v3.0. Now, I look at the fighter and I look at the ranger. And then I see: the ranger has gotten too much abilities, while the fighter has not gotten anything at all! --- The ranger is good at what he's good at. But too strong? Nowhere near close. And it's tempting indeed to PrC out of him past level 10 - it's ridiculously easy to get those equivalent class abilities or better. If you compare ranger/fighter v3.0 and ranger/fighter v3.5 you'll see what I mean. In v3.0 the ranger was a valid class, not much overpowered, but nowhere near underpowered as all the world was screaming. --- Sounds like an argument for giving the Arcane Archer some cool class abilities. Kaleidoscopic doom for all casters...*shudder* The Arcane Archer has good class abilities, the problem is: it was sold out. Instead of updating the PrC, it was cut down to feats and spells and distributed at rangers-R-US. --- Hey, you only get 4th level spells (unless the AA grants half caster progression as I suggested). Ok, I was mistaken. I thought of the BAB.... you are correct and it is CL8 and level 4 spells. --- That's actually not as broken as a focused Wizard. Hmmm.... level 8 arcane spells and level 8 divine spells are not as good as level 9 arcane spells? Why? The only reason I can see is time stop. Is that worth more than flame strike, blade barrier and heal. --- Jeez, what's the spell level? Isn't a Quickened Lower Spell Resistance (Planar Handbook, total comes to an 8th level spell) good enough for people anymore? IIRC, assay resistance is level 5. --- The elemental monoliths are okay, but the spell doesn't replace Summon Monster IX, is weaker than Greater Dragon Ally (Draconomicon) despite GDA's expensive material component, and doesn't come close to Gate. And Wizards are highly dependent on emergency preparations - they need stuff like that, the Simbul's Spell Matrix/Sequencer/Trigger, etc. Certainly more than they need broken ass spells Avasculate (fails Fort save against spell overpoweredness, is stunned for 1 round). Well, I must admit that I haven't done an indepth comparison of the various summoning spells. But I've always thought that the monolith summons were pretty much the top of what a wizard could get. --- First thing: the method I suggested doesn't make the bearded old guy any better at greatsword use, and still leaves the bearded robed guy better at spellcasting. Second thing: Stereotypes are boring. Ok, perhaps my examples were off. But I'd make sure that the unarmored caster is really better at spellcasting than the armored one. And that the penalty should probably be on the heavy side. --- I can't think of anything to give them (well, I know what a Spellsword would get under my system) so I'll keep ASF in a more streamlined form. That leaves the divine casters to nerf. Druids already have armor restrictions, so that leaves the Cleric. Somehow it always comes back to nerfing the Cleric. Hmm... the cleric is too strong? Where have I heard this before? :thinks: --- Both the armor (which I'll admit is superior) and the spell give the wizard the chance to survive and turn some wights into grave dust. Balance damage done by the wizard who wants to expend the resources to have that soulfire armor = 0. If your wizard can afford a +5 armor, couldn't he simply save a little more armor and (let) make a +6 armor of it (read: add twilight)? --- So increase Concentration DCs. To what? +2DC/1hp or even +3DC/1hp? What would be a good setting for that? Or you say that after a certain amount of your total HPs you automatically fail? Like "If you take more than 1/3 of your current HPs as damage from a single attack or spell, you automatically fail at all concentration checks in your next action"? --- Whoah, hold on that math. I never said Practiced Spellcaster gets counted twice. In your example, he would be stuck with that CL of 16 and only 8th level spells (for the spells needing S components). He can find other means to raise his CL (such as a ring of arcane might) or to lower that armor's ACP. Exactly. --- Let me illustrate: a Wiz20 wearin the same armor but with the Practiced Spellcaster feat would have a CL of 19, 20 if he grabs the ioun stone. See? NO! I simply must disagree. Practiced Spellcaster does not raise your CL over your HD. And with your suggestion here, it would. Would you have suddenly CL 24 if you took off your armor? I'd never allow that! PSC is for gish builds, not to munch out and power up full casters. A normal wizard would also not benefit from the feat, so why should he do so with your variant? --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 05-23-05, 08:06 PM	in character creation you need a d10000 :gah::OMG!:blink::mymy::shocked: I know what you mean, but I don't find it overly complicated or time robbing to roll the ASF once for each spell with somatic components you cast. Considering that you as wizard will never ever cast nearly as much spells as you fighter buddy will make attack rolls, I personally don't see a huge problem here. Still less dice to roll, and having a set effect you know is better than a random gamble you must make every time you cast. I hope you do that only for attack rolls, and not also for saves or skill checks? Chocobochicken had a good post in Regdar's about that common "house rules". Just attack rolls. As you said: depends on the party. But in a smaller party that has only a wizard and no other caster this could quickly get out of hand. In a small party, with no other caster, that wizard will have to be a focused caster. They can't afford the gish's versatility. Perhaps arcana evolved would be a good idea to look at. As far as I can tell (I have the book, but haven't had time to read through it), it has some good gish base classes. Haven't looked into that, or Arcana Unearthed either. I like the XPHb also much better than the v3.0 PsiHB, but back then I really liked the now outdated "old" psionics. I'll give it this - better than 2ed psionics. I've been playing a ranger in v3.0, and I've also played a fighter in v3.0. Now, I look at the fighter and I look at the ranger. And then I see: the ranger has gotten too much abilities, while the fighter has not gotten anything at all! Well the fighter needs more, I mentioned a bunch of splatbooks that were a start. The ranger has been made into something unique, instead of a variant fighter. Which is good. In v3.0 the ranger was a valid class, not much overpowered, but nowhere near underpowered as all the world was screaming. Yeah, but it wasn't unique. It was boring. The Arcane Archer has good class abilities, the problem is: it was sold out. Instead of updating the PrC, it was cut down to feats and spells and distributed at rangers-R-US. How often a day can it use those class abilities? Hmmm.... level 8 arcane spells and level 8 divine spells are not as good as level 9 arcane spells? Why? The only reason I can see is time stop. Is that worth more than flame strike, blade barrier and heal. Well, let's look at this carefully. Why does it get those SLAs? It's just granting 9th level spells beyond it anyways, and only a few of them. What about those other SLAs, create undead etc., they just save spell slots. That's it. This guy is good at save-or-dies of a specific type (all Fort targeting death effects) and making an undead army. That's nice. It's a focused MT - and note that MT's can reach level 8 arcane and divine anyway, and not be restricted to the True Necro's options. Plus, ironically enough, the TN doesn't do anything to help cast in armor. Well, I must admit that I haven't done an indepth comparison of the various summoning spells. But I've always thought that the monolith summons were pretty much the top of what a wizard could get. They're good, but nowhere near the strongest. Gate blows the monoliths out of the water. Ok, perhaps my examples were off. But I'd make sure that the unarmored caster is really better at spellcasting than the armored one. And that the penalty should probably be on the heavy side. Less feats spent on armored casting = more feats to spend on casting. If your wizard can afford a +5 armor, couldn't he simply save a little more armor and (let) make a +6 armor of it (read: add twilight)? Included in the calculations. To what? +2DC/1hp or even +3DC/1hp? What would be a good setting for that? Perhaps. NO! I simply must disagree. Practiced Spellcaster does not raise your CL over your HD. Hey, when you put that armor on, your CL is below your HD all of a sudden. Fancy that. (only for somatic spells though, of course) And with your suggestion here, it would. Would you have suddenly CL 24 if you took off your armor? No, the penalty would go away, your CL would equal your HD, and PSC would become negated. PSC is for gish builds, not to munch out and power up full casters. A normal wizard would also not benefit from the feat, so why should he do so with your variant? You have never seen the bard with Words of Creation and Practiced Spellcaster use Inspire Greatness, I see. :D Every full caster gets a return out of PSC in the same party with that bard. That's how the RAW of the feat works, and as I said, it doesn't break the game, it is a way for the character to spend resources (a feat) towards a goal (casting in armor). Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 05-25-05, 04:50 AM	Hi. === :gah::OMG!:blink::mymy::shocked: :rofl: That was also my reaction towards it. We've only played a single "practice combat", then all players were fed up with the system. --- Still less dice to roll, and having a set effect you know is better than a random gamble you must make every time you cast. Hmm... I don't have any objections to this. I hope it works out well. --- Just attack rolls. Ok, good to hear that. I've just seen to many "house rules" that incorporate the rules of nat1 and nat20 also for skill checks, which leads to the silly result of a level20 elven ranger with maxed climb skill falling out of the tree in 1 of 20 occasions. --- In a small party, with no other caster, that wizard will have to be a focused caster. They can't afford the gish's versatility. Hmm... But what if the combination the player discovered is simply too good? As far as I can tell ftr1/wiz5/eld.knight10/archmage3 looks pretty good. And you loose only 2 caster levels: 1 for that level of fighter, and the other 1 for the first level of Eldritch Knight. --- Haven't looked into that, or Arcana Unearthed either. Arcana Evolved is a "director's cut" version to Arcana Unearthed. And some classes are really interesting, but I've only taken a quick look at it so far. Hmm... need some time to read that book... --- I'll give it this - better than 2ed psionics. I don't know 2E psionics, but from what I've heard: *shudder* --- Well the fighter needs more, I mentioned a bunch of splatbooks that were a start. The ranger has been made into something unique, instead of a variant fighter. Which is good. But in my opinion, the fighter is the most useless class ever designed by WotC. It simply cannot be that you need ~7 Splatbooks, and have to cherry-pick feats and PrCs out of these books just to make a viable melee/archery character that can stand up with casters. That's simply wrong. As it stands now, the only reason to take fighter levels is "I need x feats for PrC y". --- Yeah, but it wasn't unique. It was boring. But it was better balanced with the other melee combatants. Just compare the difference between the v3.0 ranger and fighter, and do that now. Or v3.0 ranger/paladin. Now the gap is even largen than it was back in the old 3E. And I still stand by my statement that, compared with the other melee classes, the ranger is now too good. He has much better skills than fighter, barbarian or paladin. He has better saves than most of them (exception: paladin). He has more versatality in his combat style (barbarian is almost forced into melee, as is paladin with mounted combat). And he gains special abilities like camoflage and hide in plain sight. What did the paladin get? Sense Motive added to his class skill list and smite improved to 1/day/5levels instead of 1/day. What did the fighter get? Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization. :bored: --- How often a day can it use those class abilities? 1/day. And 1/day is fine. Many other PrC also have 1/day abilities. The problem is: the special abilities were raped into spells and feats. No one would go after the Incantatrix PrC, if her special abilities were available as feats for each caster. Or incorporated into the Spellcraft skill as "old skills, new uses". I simply try to ignore the spells and feats in question from CAdv and do so as if they didn't exist. --- Well, let's look at this carefully. Why does it get those SLAs? It's just granting 9th level spells beyond it anyways, and only a few of them. What about those other SLAs, create undead etc., they just save spell slots. That's it. This guy is good at save-or-dies of a specific type (all Fort targeting death effects) and making an undead army. That's nice. It's a focused MT - and note that MT's can reach level 8 arcane and divine anyway, and not be restricted to the True Necro's options. Plus, ironically enough, the TN doesn't do anything to help cast in armor. I think you forget that they have the whole cleric list (IIRC they must have the Death domain) and the whole wizard list (I think they must also be necromancy specialists) minus 2 schools. With the right choices made for domain/school/spell selection, the TN can (almost) blast as good, heal as good, buff as good, and control the battlefield just as good as a cleric or wizard of the same level. And in addition to that he has his crazy SLAs that provide him with insane undead servants or on-the-fly-instant-kills. --- They're good, but nowhere near the strongest. Gate blows the monoliths out of the water. Seems that gate is too strong... --- Less feats spent on armored casting = more feats to spend on casting. But I really think that 1 feat is not enough. I'd make it a feat that can be taken multiple times and each time allows spells of a higher level to be cast without penalty. Like the following # of feat highest spell level taken without penalty 1 0-1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 But a single feat for all spells is too much. It is simply too good to not take it. And if you just want a melee character to get a little power up, he can very well expend those 2 or 3 feats for the first 3 spelllevels to be cast without penalty. At most, I'd agree to make it a feat each for two spelllevels. Like the following: # of feat highest spell level taken without penalty 1 0-1 2 2-3 3 4-5 4 6-7 5 8-9 --- Included in the calculations. I just don't get it. You were talking about a +5 armor, but soulfire is IIRC a +4 enhancement. Woudn't a +1 soulfire twilight armor then be effectively a +6 armor? --- Perhaps. Do you think +3 to the DC per 1hp of damage you take is ok? So if you get hit for 20 points of damage, the DC of the Concentration check would be 70. Pretty much what I had in mind, considering what percentage of a wizard's total HPs 20 points are. --- Hey, when you put that armor on, your CL is below your HD all of a sudden. Fancy that. (only for somatic spells though, of course) But this runs counter to your proposed intent of allowing gish characters a little more power without powering up full casters even more. If you make it simply 1 feat, every caster would get this feat. If in doubt, a caster can live without "enlarge spell". --- No, the penalty would go away, your CL would equal your HD, and PSC would become negated. See my comment above. This would be too good for a full caster to ignore. Instead of allowing gish characters a little beef-up, you're granting even more power to full casters. --- You have never seen the bard with Words of Creation and Practiced Spellcaster use Inspire Greatness, I see. :D Every full caster gets a return out of PSC in the same party with that bard. That's how the RAW of the feat works, and as I said, it doesn't break the game, it is a way for the character to spend resources (a feat) towards a goal (casting in armor). Hmm... no, I haven't see said combo in action. What's the deal with it? --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 05-30-05, 05:05 PM	Sorry about my absence, I was at a con. Ok, good to hear that. I've just seen to many "house rules" that incorporate the rules of nat1 and nat20 also for skill checks, which leads to the silly result of a level20 elven ranger with maxed climb skill falling out of the tree in 1 of 20 occasions. :rofl: Actually with my houserule that wouldn't affect the elf in question, but nonetheless skills should not work in every way like attack rolls. Hmm... But what if the combination the player discovered is simply too good? As far as I can tell ftr1/wiz5/eld.knight10/archmage3 looks pretty good. And you loose only 2 caster levels: 1 for that level of fighter, and the other 1 for the first level of Eldritch Knight. I would have to guess you have not played gishes, my friend. That example you state has less hp than a bard. Archery might be an interesting option, but otherwise this guy would be better off casting his Polymorphs on the focused melee characters in the party. He could only go toe to toe after a Tenser's Transformation, but that costs him his spellcasting and normal wizards would get it 2 levels earlier, c'mon! Outside of psionics and hexblades, it's very difficult to optimize gishes. But in my opinion, the fighter is the most useless class ever designed by WotC. It simply cannot be that you need ~7 Splatbooks, and have to cherry-pick feats and PrCs out of these books just to make a viable melee/archery character that can stand up with casters. That's simply wrong. As it stands now, the only reason to take fighter levels is "I need x feats for PrC y". --- But it was better balanced with the other melee combatants. Just compare the difference between the v3.0 ranger and fighter, and do that now. Or v3.0 ranger/paladin. Now the gap is even largen than it was back in the old 3E. And I still stand by my statement that, compared with the other melee classes, the ranger is now too good. He has much better skills than fighter, barbarian or paladin. He has better saves than most of them (exception: paladin). He has more versatality in his combat style (barbarian is almost forced into melee, as is paladin with mounted combat). And he gains special abilities like camoflage and hide in plain sight. What did the paladin get? Sense Motive added to his class skill list and smite improved to 1/day/5levels instead of 1/day. What did the fighter get? Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization. :bored: Correctamundo on the fighter, every time. The problem is that the fighter didn't change. The 3.0 ranger was a 3.0 fighter with some spells. Only reason not to play some rogue/druid/fighter multiclasser instead was for the BAB. Now the ranger is something different and cool. Skills are part of what they do (ditto for barb to a lesser degree). So are it's neat abilities. As for versatility in combat, I repeat - do you want a d8 HD character with rogue AC in close quarters? A TWF ranger needs the Improved Toughness feat and should probably spend as much time in close quarters as the rogue - that is, when you see something near dead, go in and finish it off. Otherwise, you're better off with archery (hell, CAdv gave cooler spells for archers anyways). The paladin is cool because he's a support character who's tough but not broken like the cleric or druid. Not to say he's perfect (he needs restoration and the other status fixes sooner, plus WTF do you mean poor will save? I'd make Cha the spellcasting stat too) but he's not bad and he brings options to the table. Plus, his mount actually makes mounted combat possible at high levels - everything else except for summoned creatures and druid animal companions die too quickly. The barb does what he does, his problem is not power but lack of options, stronger combat feats can help the fighter and the barb too. As for the fighter...well, he got jack, but that's a problem with the fighter, not the ranger. They treated the ranger right with core and CAdv, and the fighter...well, needs more feats. When there are as many cool fighter feats offering viable combat options as, say, psionic powers, then we are talking. 1/day. And 1/day is fine. Many other PrC also have 1/day abilities. The problem is: the special abilities were raped into spells and feats. No one would go after the Incantatrix PrC, if her special abilities were available as feats for each caster. Or incorporated into the Spellcraft skill as "old skills, new uses". I simply try to ignore the spells and feats in question from CAdv and do so as if they didn't exist. That's fine when there's more to the PrC than 1/day abilities. That slow arrow enhancement progression is not enough. For the Arcane Archer to be balanced, there are three options that come to mind: Give the AA half caster progression, as per the Spellsword. The SS is pretty much good for power, has limited daily abilities, and does something cool with his equipment - just like the AA except not sucky. Although ironically, I'll have to rework how the SS works if I remove ASF in favor of CL penalties. Give the AA more uses of the cool abilities per day, like the Shadow Sentinel in Races of Destiny. That PrC is made the way the AA should've been. 1/2 free enhancement progression, but must burn resources to use the cool abilities more often. Hell, giving the AA half caster progression but forcing the AA to burn spell slots to use its abilities is a good idea. Stronger and more customizable enhancement options like the Kensai. If the AA invested in a bow like the Kensai does with a weapon, and could enhance it as the player wished, then we'd have a PrC worth my time. As is, I'll play bard/ranger multiclassers, and use those spells instead of the nonsense found that is the AA. I think you forget that they have the whole cleric list (IIRC they must have the Death domain) and the whole wizard list (I think they must also be necromancy specialists) minus 2 schools. With the right choices made for domain/school/spell selection, the TN can (almost) blast as good, heal as good, buff as good, and control the battlefield just as good as a cleric or wizard of the same level. And in addition to that he has his crazy SLAs that provide him with insane undead servants or on-the-fly-instant-kills. Oh come now, with 2 exceptions per day those SLAs don't give the TN anything that his own spellcasting couldn't offer. About the biggest advantage about the SLAs is they can't be counterspelled, whoopee, otherwise they just save spell slots. Compared to a wizard, the TN is a necromancer specialist that doesn't suck (it's a poor school to specialize in) but still loses options. Compared to the cleric, a TN is much weaker. And that still leaves the TN playing catch-up big time to the straight casters in the mid levels, even worse than the MT. The Radical Taoist's Verdict: Good...BIJNTU (But It's Just Not That Uber). Seems that gate is too strong... Seems, hell.:nonono: They might as well reword the summoning use of the spell to "VIOLATE an encounter of 4 CR higher than your CL in exchange for 1/3 of the XP you'd receive for it." But I really think that 1 feat is not enough. I'd make it a feat that can be taken multiple times and each time allows spells of a higher level to be cast without penalty. Like the following # of feat highest spell level taken without penalty 1 0-1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 But a single feat for all spells is too much. It is simply too good to not take it. And if you just want a melee character to get a little power up, he can very well expend those 2 or 3 feats for the first 3 spelllevels to be cast without penalty. At most, I'd agree to make it a feat each for two spelllevels. Like the following: # of feat highest spell level taken without penalty 1 0-1 2 2-3 3 4-5 4 6-7 5 8-9 Well, if that's what works for you, go for it. I just don't get it. You were talking about a +5 armor, but soulfire is IIRC a +4 enhancement. Woudn't a +1 soulfire twilight armor then be effectively a +6 armor? Oh, I was talking about +5 twilight mithral full plate, for an AC comparison to bracers of armor +8. Do you think +3 to the DC per 1hp of damage you take is ok? So if you get hit for 20 points of damage, the DC of the Concentration check would be 70. Pretty much what I had in mind, considering what percentage of a wizard's total HPs 20 points are. Maybe. I'd have to take a close look at the skill. But this runs counter to your proposed intent of allowing gish characters a little more power without powering up full casters even more. If you make it simply 1 feat, every caster would get this feat. If in doubt, a caster can live without "enlarge spell". Ah ah ah, 1 feat plus 1 more feat for proficiency. At least 2 proficiency feats if you want armor worth choosing over bracers or spells, so that's 3 feats. Plus not counting shield proficiency. Or you can multiclass and take another CL hit, now PSC only lets you cast ACP -3 armor without penalty. See my comment above. This would be too good for a full caster to ignore. Instead of allowing gish characters a little beef-up, you're granting even more power to full casters. I'm not granting power to full casters, I'm just giving them armor, which I have demonstrated to be well within their means already. IJNTU. Hmm... no, I haven't see said combo in action. What's the deal with it? Well, a bard using Words of Creation grants 4 temporary hit dice to himself and his allies when using inspire greatness, and PSC boosts your CL up to your hit dice...:schemes: Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 05-31-05, 06:34 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Sorry about my absence, I was at a con. No problem. I guess we all have our little demons... And I'm currently offline at home,so I can only write while at university :(. --- :rofl: Actually with my houserule that wouldn't affect the elf in question, but nonetheless skills should not work in every way like attack rolls. Ok, good to hear that. I was just asking anyways. So many houserules lead to unintended - and sometimes really silly - results like my example. --- I would have to guess you have not played gishes, my friend. That example you state has less hp than a bard. Archery might be an interesting option, but otherwise this guy would be better off casting his Polymorphs on the focused melee characters in the party. He could only go toe to toe after a Tenser's Transformation, but that costs him his spellcasting and normal wizards would get it 2 levels earlier, c'mon! Outside of psionics and hexblades, it's very difficult to optimize gishes. You are right: usually I play either a) a caster or b) a combatant. Normally I do not try to mesh things together that are - IMHO - "unmeshable". Less HP than a bard? Maybe, but all armor and - more important - all weapon proficiencies and level 9 spells. A level 20 bard with a 14con has 6+19d6+40 = ~113hp on average. With the same con score my example character would have 10+5d4+10d6+3d4+40 = ~105hp. Only an 8pt difference, but my Eldritch Knight would have a much better spellcasting (level 9 wizard spells vs level 6 bard spells) and better combat options (proficient with all martial weapons and 2 fighter bonus feats). --- Correctamundo on the fighter, every time. The problem is that the fighter didn't change. The 3.0 ranger was a 3.0 fighter with some spells. Only reason not to play some rogue/druid/fighter multiclasser instead was for the BAB. Now the ranger is something different and cool. Skills are part of what they do (ditto for barb to a lesser degree). So are it's neat abilities. As for versatility in combat, I repeat - do you want a d8 HD character with rogue AC in close quarters? A TWF ranger needs the Improved Toughness feat and should probably spend as much time in close quarters as the rogue - that is, when you see something near dead, go in and finish it off. Otherwise, you're better off with archery (hell, CAdv gave cooler spells for archers anyways). I personally would like to see a complete redesign of the core fighter. AFAIK there are only 3 feats only a fighter can take (WS, GWF and GWS). Stronger feats only make the other combat classes also stronger, which leaves the power gap the same as before. Besides the 3 feats I mentioned previously, a barbarian can take the same feats as a fighter, but the barbarian still has his fast movement, his Dr and his rage. IIRC, it was proven in the CO boards that bonus feats, no matter how many, are no replacement for absent class abilities. Or would you want a caster that has only bonus feats but no spells? --- The paladin is cool because he's a support character who's tough but not broken like the cleric or druid. Not to say he's perfect (he needs restoration and the other status fixes sooner, plus WTF do you mean poor will save? I'd make Cha the spellcasting stat too) but he's not bad and he brings options to the table. Plus, his mount actually makes mounted combat possible at high levels - everything else except for summoned creatures and druid animal companions die too quickly. The barb does what he does, his problem is not power but lack of options, stronger combat feats can help the fighter and the barb too. The paladin only a support character? I must disagree. With d10 HD, all weapon and armor proficiency, and his combat bonuses (divine feats, smite) IMHO he is an alternative frontliner for the party. The problem with mounted combat is: how do you do mounted combat in a dungoen? Or in a city? Or in the sewers? Or on an airship (in Eberron)? Or in the forests? Or in a desert where you horse cannot move that well? Only in the rarest occasions can a paladin play out the advantage of his special mount. And sorry, I will never invest ~3 feats into a combat style which I probably can use in 1 out of 50 combats because of the circumstances. If the paladin gained these feats (mounted combat, spirited charge,...) as bonus feats, or if he could choose an alternative class feature to his mount, then I'd be almost perfect, but as it stands now, the paladin is forced into the role of "knight in shining plate on trusty steed", or he wastes one of his signature class abilities. --- As for the fighter...well, he got jack, but that's a problem with the fighter, not the ranger. They treated the ranger right with core and CAdv, and the fighter...well, needs more feats. When there are as many cool fighter feats offering viable combat options as, say, psionic powers, then we are talking. As I've said, I'd like to see the fighter rebuilt, with more options built into the class; options that make the fighter unique and not only a feat donator for entry prerequisites into PrCs. I really must take a closer look at Arcane Evolved... --- That's fine when there's more to the PrC than 1/day abilities. That slow arrow enhancement progression is not enough. For the Arcane Archer to be balanced, there are three options that come to mind: I don't know, but I find it pretty powerful to take a normal non-MW bow and fire +5 arrows from it. When the v3.0 DMG came out, we stood in our FLGS and stared in awe at the Arcane Archer. "Overpowered", "Crazy", "Damn, he'll shoot everything that moves" were comments from us back then. But today, the only reaction the AA can evoke (thanks to the all present power creep) is: :bored:. Give the AA half caster progression, as per the Spellsword. The SS is pretty much good for power, has limited daily abilities, and does something cool with his equipment - just like the AA except not sucky. Although ironically, I'll have to rework how the SS works if I remove ASF in favor of CL penalties. Give the AA more uses of the cool abilities per day, like the Shadow Sentinel in Races of Destiny. That PrC is made the way the AA should've been. 1/2 free enhancement progression, but must burn resources to use the cool abilities more often. Hell, giving the AA half caster progression but forcing the AA to burn spell slots to use its abilities is a good idea. Stronger and more customizable enhancement options like the Kensai. If the AA invested in a bow like the Kensai does with a weapon, and could enhance it as the player wished, then we'd have a PrC worth my time. @(1): I think the AA is intended in a similar way the OotBI is: to augment "mundane" archers with a bit more [magical] prowess, not to infuse casters with more fighting strenght. My next character I'm going to play in Eberron if my aereni paladin falls is going to be a half-elven ftr1/wiz5/ek4/aa10. So I still get level 4 spells and have a BAB of 17 and 10+5d4+4d6+10d8+20*con-mod HPs. @(2): I haven't seen the Shadow Sentinel, so I can't comment on this, but I really do not like your suggestion of having to spend spell slots to use class abilities. Other than the archmage, where you permanently sacrifice slots but gain permanent benefits, this is too similar to the dreaded "psionic combat" from the PsiHB. Why should I - for example - expend a level 3 slot to gain a bonus on my arrows, when I could instead just cast fireball or lightning bolt and damage the opponent much more in that way? @(3): Simply, no. I must disagree. Take away the kensai's weapon or just sunder it, and he's :censored: and pretty much useless for until he can replace his weapon. Sunder the bow of an AA and he will take up the next mundane bow and be just as effective as before, although a bit less because of the lost enhancements of his original bow. The AA is not that much equipment dependent as a kensai or fighter. And that is his greatest benefit. I wouldn't take that away. --- As is, I'll play bard/ranger multiclassers, and use those spells instead of the nonsense found that is the AA. And how do you get the AA's damage out put? He only needs +1 on his bow and can get other enhancements with a total of up to +9, when you can only affort enhancements of up to +5 when you want to get the same base damage. AA: bow: +1 holy(+2) keen(+1) shocking burst(+2) flaming burst(+2) icy burst(+2) damage: 1d8+5magic+Xstr+1d6electricity+1d6fire+1 d6cold(+2d6holy) threat: 19-20/x3, on a critical hit: +2d10electricity, +2d10fire, +2d10cold Bard/Ranger: bow: +5 holy(+2) keen(+1) shocking burst(+2) damage: 1d8+5magic+Xstr+1d6electricity(+2d6holy) threat: 19-20/x3, on a critical hit: +2d10electricity --- Oh come now, with 2 exceptions per day those SLAs don't give the TN anything that his own spellcasting couldn't offer. About the biggest advantage about the SLAs is they can't be counterspelled, whoopee, otherwise they just save spell slots. Compared to a wizard, the TN is a necromancer specialist that doesn't suck (it's a poor school to specialize in) but still loses options. Compared to the cleric, a TN is much weaker. And that still leaves the TN playing catch-up big time to the straight casters in the mid levels, even worse than the MT. The Radical Taoist's Verdict: Good...BIJNTU (But It's Just Not That Uber). How is the TN weaker than the MT? Could you please explain that? And am I the only one that can see the benefits of having level 8 arcane and level 8 divine spells, as well as undispellable insta-kill abilities and hordes of undead? --- Seems, hell.:nonono: They might as well reword the summoning use of the spell to "VIOLATE an encounter of 4 CR higher than your CL in exchange for 1/3 of the XP you'd receive for it." :rofl: Just as you said: spells need a nerf. --- Well, if that's what works for you, go for it. We are currently playing with the ASF as written, and don't have any problems with it. I was just making suggestions. --- Oh, I was talking about +5 twilight mithral full plate, for an AC comparison to bracers of armor +8. Ahh... now I can see... my mistake. But that also leaves the weight issue. I guess a full plate, even if made of mithril, will weight much more than the bracers, which might very well result in medium, or even heavy, load for the wizard or sorcerer. And I don't think caster would voluntarily want to inhibit their mobility. Yet another point not to wear armor as an arcane caster. --- Maybe. I'd have to take a close look at the skill. Hmm... perhaps +2DC/1hp would be enough. So our good old wizard would have to make a DC 50 Concentration check if he got hit for 20pts of damage. --- Ah ah ah, 1 feat plus 1 more feat for proficiency. At least 2 proficiency feats if you want armor worth choosing over bracers or spells, so that's 3 feats. Plus not counting shield proficiency. Or you can multiclass and take another CL hit, now PSC only lets you cast ACP -3 armor without penalty. As I've said in a previous post, the penalty should be on the heavy side. A fighter (or barbarian for that matter) also cannot just gain "immunity to hostile mind-affecting magic" by taking a single feat or such. He must expend feats, and monetary resources and still has a chance of failure. An other way would be to make feats like the following: Proficient Casting: Light Armor Prerequisites: Armor proficiency: light armor, caster level 3 Benefit: You can cast spells in all light armors (but not mithril medium armor) without ASF. Proficient Casting: Medium Armor Prerequisites: Armor proficiency: light armor, armor proficieny: medium armor, proficient casting: light armor, caster level 9 Benefit: You can cast spells in all medium armors (but not mithril heavy armor) without ASF. Proficient Casting: Heavy Armor Prerequisites: Armor proficiency: light armor, armor proficieny: medium armor, armor proficiency: heavy armor, proficient casting: light armor, proficient casting: medium armor, caster level 15 Benefit: You can cast spells in all heavy armors without ASF. These feats would have the benefit of completely negating ASF, but would be more expensive and would encourage multiclassing if you want to go for heavy armor. --- I'm not granting power to full casters, I'm just giving them armor, which I have demonstrated to be well within their means already. IJNTU. But with a single feat, I still think it's too cheap a cost for them to gain this benefit. --- Well, a bard using Words of Creation grants 4 temporary hit dice to himself and his allies when using inspire greatness, and PSC boosts your CL up to your hit dice...:schemes: As you've said: temporary hit dice. Just compare: can you heal temporary HPs? Therefore, I think this is a misinterpretation of the rules. Have you emailed CustServ on this? I really don't believe that this should work as you said. And remember: if you choose Words of Creation just for this selfish reason, you'll have lost your exalted status faster than you could say "but". AFAIK you must be exalted to be able to take Words of Creation. Also, if you're aiming at being a sorcerer of wizard with an exalted bard cohort, you better not have mind blank up and runnning, because "inspire greatness" is a mind-affecting effect. And I cannot find any comment in the SRD on that spell that you can lower the protection for beneficial effects or such. And at higher levels it is suicide for an arcane caster to go without this spell. Can you say "feeblemind"? So, what exactly do you think you do gain from this combo - if it even worked the way you said? If you are a bard you cannot cast any spells because as long as you use bardic music you cannot use any ability or item that requires words, and you cannot apply silent spell to bard spells. So, what's the deal? Having an exalted bard cohort? Well, if I were DM, you'd better be Ueber-Exalted yourself, because if not, you'd loose your status (and your exalted feats, and your cohort) very fast. --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 05-31-05, 10:55 PM	Less HP than a bard? Maybe, but all armor and - more important - all weapon proficiencies and level 9 spells. A level 20 bard with a 14con has 6+19d6+40 = ~113hp on average. With the same con score my example character would have 10+5d4+10d6+3d4+40 = ~105hp. Only an 8pt difference, but my Eldritch Knight would have a much better spellcasting (level 9 wizard spells vs level 6 bard spells) and better combat options (proficient with all martial weapons and 2 fighter bonus feats). I repeat myself: armor, HPs, and high damage output are all required in high level melee combat (I mean from 12 on). You cannot disregard one unless you have pushed another to an extreme limit. 105 hp??? That's less than one full attack from a strong monster. You will get a bite attack followed by an Improved Grab and die in some creature's gullet. High level melee monsters are just far too powerful. Your gish will be Cleave bait. To survive at high level combat you shouldn't try anything without at least 200 hp (preferably 300) and an AC in the high 30s preferably (keep in mind many monsters have natural attack routines with bonuses of 30 and higher), along with a damage output of at least 100 dmg per round. Your guy can reach that output with spells, which is what he should be using. Maybe with archery. To do that in melee he'll likely need Polymorph Any Object, in which case, why not cast it on the fighter? You need all three of the pillars. A barbarian can get away with low AC only because he can hit 300, 400 hp in a rage and has insane damage output. A monk can get away with lower hp because if he twinks it up, he can have an AC in the high 50s. Rogues are gambles - they don't have the AC or hp to survive, but can manage the damage output to eliminate threats before suffering retaliation. How does your guy manage? With spells. His big advantage? Not so hosed against foes with high touch ACs. He's good, BJNTU. I personally would like to see a complete redesign of the core fighter. AFAIK there are only 3 feats only a fighter can take (WS, GWF and GWS). Stronger feats only make the other combat classes also stronger, which leaves the power gap the same as before. Besides the 3 feats I mentioned previously, a barbarian can take the same feats as a fighter, but the barbarian still has his fast movement, his Dr and his rage. IIRC, it was proven in the CO boards that bonus feats, no matter how many, are no replacement for absent class abilities. Or would you want a caster that has only bonus feats but no spells? Well the way feats work now, that is the case. What I want is more feat synergy, which makes having more feats exponentially more useful. Search my sig and you should find something called the Tao Points system, it was an idea I had. Basically you should make high level feats wicked strong when used in conjunction, so every melee character has one or two awesome combat tricks used by combining feats, maybe characters with some bonus feats like monks and rangers have two or three, but the Fighter has all the feats and thus has five, six, seven wicked cool tricks and thus is useful in a variety of combat situations. That's how the Fighter is supposed to work now, but he falls awfully short. In summary, I don't want to give the fighter any options not available to the other combat classes, but I want to make those feat options more flexible in his hands than in the hands of any other class. The paladin only a support character? I must disagree. With d10 HD, all weapon and armor proficiency, and his combat bonuses (divine feats, smite) IMHO he is an alternative frontliner for the party. Not only, I said both. If he can't charge or turn, at least he can heal, or guard. The problem with mounted combat is: how do you do mounted combat in a dungoen? Or in a city? Or in the sewers? Or on an airship (in Eberron)? Or in the forests? Or in a desert where you horse cannot move that well? Only in the rarest occasions can a paladin play out the advantage of his special mount. And sorry, I will never invest ~3 feats into a combat style which I probably can use in 1 out of 50 combats because of the circumstances. If the paladin gained these feats (mounted combat, spirited charge,...) as bonus feats, or if he could choose an alternative class feature to his mount, then I'd be almost perfect, but as it stands now, the paladin is forced into the role of "knight in shining plate on trusty steed", or he wastes one of his signature class abilities. Like many of the other combat classes, the paladin suffers from a lack of options. At least he can still smite and turn. Making mounted combat more flexible - you have to be a Small race to use it practically in most campaigns - would help. "Alternative paladin styles" may be an option here too, take the Dragon Steed feat from the Draconomicon or the half-orc racial substitution levels in Races of Destiny for starters. I don't know, but I find it pretty powerful to take a normal non-MW bow and fire +5 arrows from it. When the v3.0 DMG came out, we stood in our FLGS and stared in awe at the Arcane Archer. "Overpowered", "Crazy", "Damn, he'll shoot everything that moves" were comments from us back then. But today, the only reaction the AA can evoke (thanks to the all present power creep) is: :bored:. It's the Soulknife Effect: you're saving money on equipment, but without any other seriously reliable options you have to spend your money to compensate for the weaknesses caused by the lack of decent options. @(1): I think the AA is intended in a similar way the OotBI is: to augment "mundane" archers with a bit more [magical] prowess, not to infuse casters with more fighting strenght. My next character I'm going to play in Eberron if my aereni paladin falls is going to be a half-elven ftr1/wiz5/ek4/aa10. So I still get level 4 spells and have a BAB of 17 and 10+5d4+4d6+10d8+20*con-mod HPs. Fair enough, but give the guy more uses of those abilities per day. Aren't the noncasters supposed to have the "per day" stamina? @(2): I haven't seen the Shadow Sentinel, so I can't comment on this, but I really do not like your suggestion of having to spend spell slots to use class abilities. Other than the archmage, where you permanently sacrifice slots but gain permanent benefits, this is too similar to the dreaded "psionic combat" from the PsiHB. Why should I - for example - expend a level 3 slot to gain a bonus on my arrows, when I could instead just cast fireball or lightning bolt and damage the opponent much more in that way? Great prestige class, flavorful and balanced, way it works is that you gain a pool of "shadow points" which power the PrC's abilities and grows with the levels you take in the PrC, and your nifty tricks run off of that. And I know psionic combat:yuck:, I was thinking more along the lines of similar stuff that doesn't suck like the feats Arcane Strike and Draconic Breath. @(3): Simply, no. I must disagree. Take away the kensai's weapon or just sunder it, and he's :censored: and pretty much useless for until he can replace his weapon. Sunder the bow of an AA and he will take up the next mundane bow and be just as effective as before, although a bit less because of the lost enhancements of his original bow. The AA is not that much equipment dependent as a kensai or fighter. And that is his greatest benefit. I wouldn't take that away. Which is why intelligent Kensai add the Metalline enhancement to their weapons as quickly as possible and keep it as Adamantine. Really, if that's your only problem with it, rule that he invests that XP in the practice of the bow and that enhancement applies to any arrow he draws. And how do you get the AA's damage out put? He only needs +1 on his bow and can get other enhancements with a total of up to +9, when you can only affort enhancements of up to +5 when you want to get the same base damage. Through Ranger coolness like Arrow Mind, and Guided Shot, and Words of Creation/Inspire Courage for great damage and to hit increases that can be shared with the whole party. And if my foe is a favored enemy... How is the TN weaker than the MT? Could you please explain that? And am I the only one that can see the benefits of having level 8 arcane and level 8 divine spells, as well as undispellable insta-kill abilities and hordes of undead? Not weaker, I said has a harder time of catch up. Compare a level 16 Wiz3/Clr3/MT10 and 7th level spells in both to a Necromancer3/Clr3/TN10. What's the TN casting? Hmm? I see the benefits. It is good. But compared to what casters already had for options, I repeat: IJNTU. Not to say it isn't broken, but it's not more broken than normal casters, and should not be nerfed exclusively. Just nerf the spells, like we agree. Really, without Gate and Miracle and a lot of other 9th level spell cheese (the 9th level SLAs the TN gets are the most balanced spells of that level, actually) this guy's a deal safer than the straight casters. Ahh... now I can see... my mistake. But that also leaves the weight issue. I guess a full plate, even if made of mithril, will weight much more than the bracers, which might very well result in medium, or even heavy, load for the wizard or sorcerer. And I don't think caster would voluntarily want to inhibit their mobility. Yet another point not to wear armor as an arcane caster. *nods* And if you want both mobility and high AC, be a monk or a Champion of Corellon Larethian. I suppose a Sorceror/Monk/Enlightened Fist could pull off high mobility and defense and spell power, but his attack bonus could suck. As I've said in a previous post, the penalty should be on the heavy side. A fighter (or barbarian for that matter) also cannot just gain "immunity to hostile mind-affecting magic" by taking a single feat or such. He must expend feats, and monetary resources and still has a chance of failure. An other way would be to make feats like the following: These feats would have the benefit of completely negating ASF, but would be more expensive and would encourage multiclassing if you want to go for heavy armor. I suppose those are options. Remember PSC is only a +4 bonus with my system, and can only be taken once per spellcasting class, and if used to negate ACP then cannot raise CL for lost levels from PrCs like Dragonslayer. As you've said: temporary hit dice. Just compare: can you heal temporary HPs? Therefore, I think this is a misinterpretation of the rules. Have you emailed CustServ on this? I really don't believe that this should work as you said. And remember: if you choose Words of Creation just for this selfish reason, you'll have lost your exalted status faster than you could say "but". AFAIK you must be exalted to be able to take Words of Creation. Also, if you're aiming at being a sorcerer of wizard with an exalted bard cohort, you better not have mind blank up and runnning, because "inspire greatness" is a mind-affecting effect. And I cannot find any comment in the SRD on that spell that you can lower the protection for beneficial effects or such. And at higher levels it is suicide for an arcane caster to go without this spell. Can you say "feeblemind"? Ah ah ah - I get that temporary +4 to CL as long as I have those temporary HD. Per the RAW it works. Yes I am exalted, what if I use this to raise my CL and make my healing spells stronger, hmm? Is that not good? Do not mistake evil activity by the player (cheesing stuff out) for evil activity by the character. Otherwise you have to throw out the BoED, that's got some crazy overpowered brokenness. Fist of Raziel? Vow of Poverty druids? C'mon! As for mind blank, I'll take a Spell Turning instead :D Mind Blank is best for low-Will characters like melee types. Besides, a bard can give bonuses to saves and everything. So, what exactly do you think you do gain from this combo - if it even worked the way you said? If you are a bard you cannot cast any spells because as long as you use bardic music you cannot use any ability or item that requires words, and you cannot apply silent spell to bard spells. So, what's the deal? Having an exalted bard cohort? Well, if I were DM, you'd better be Ueber-Exalted yourself, because if not, you'd loose your status (and your exalted feats, and your cohort) very fast. I gain +4 to CL, and so does every other ally who's a full caster with the PSC feat (look! sharing with allies! Isn't that a good act?). I can use an instrument, which at worst means I need Still Spell. Hell, Inspire Greatness' effects last for 5 rounds after I stop singing anyways, or two whole minutes if I take that feat from CAdv. And a DM like that is neither being fair nor playing to the rules if he doesn't take into account what I'm using that uber CL for. Hell, it's more dangerous in the hands of the party cleric (who can combine it with Beads of Karma and Divine Spell Power, and then the Good domain, and then Holy Word the opposition into oblivion). Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
TheScalesOfFate 06-01-05, 04:30 AM	Hey, Radical Taoist? On what page does this "Whispercast" lie? I'm trying to find it in LoM, but I'm having no luck. Help? XD
Ra-Tiel 06-01-05, 04:41 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: I repeat myself: armor, HPs, and high damage output are all required in high level melee combat (I mean from 12 on). You cannot disregard one unless you have pushed another to an extreme limit. 105 hp??? 105hp with a 14con. It's much more likely that this guy has a con ~20 (with amulets of health or similar items), which would boost his HPs by at least another 60pts. Don't forget that he can use contingency with something like: "If I cast iron body on myself, trigger a tenser's transformation on me". Or he could get mad with Craft Contingent Spell and pull off the classical Stoneskin+Mirror Image+Displacement combo. --- That's less than one full attack from a strong monster. You will get a bite attack followed by an Improved Grab and die in some creature's gullet. High level melee monsters are just far too powerful. Your gish will be Cleave bait. Not to forget freedom of movement. What grapple check? --- To survive at high level combat you shouldn't try anything without at least 200 hp (preferably 300) and an AC in the high 30s preferably (keep in mind many monsters have natural attack routines with bonuses of 30 and higher), along with a damage output of at least 100 dmg per round. Your guy can reach that output with spells, which is what he should be using. Maybe with archery. To do that in melee he'll likely need Polymorph Any Object, in which case, why not cast it on the fighter? You need all three of the pillars. A barbarian can get away with low AC only because he can hit 300, 400 hp in a rage and has insane damage output. A monk can get away with lower hp because if he twinks it up, he can have an AC in the high 50s. Rogues are gambles - they don't have the AC or hp to survive, but can manage the damage output to eliminate threats before suffering retaliation. How does your guy manage? With spells. His big advantage? Not so hosed against foes with high touch ACs. He's good, BJNTU. This guy can get a very high AC: 10base+2dex+8bracers+4shield+5ring+5natu ral=34total, 17vs touch. And I'm not even trying. And with a more reasonable con score for level 20, his HPs border close to ~170. And don't forget his defensive spells. Please remember: NO person runs around the whole day carrying a tower shield in front of them. So, even your tower shield (or whatever shield he might be using) wearing fighter might also need a round to get up a significant part of his defense. And for effectiveness in combat... I guess a quickened and via metamagic rod empowered shivering touch followed by a coup de grace with a maximized disintegrate should take care of most enemies. --- Well the way feats work now, that is the case. What I want is more feat synergy, which makes having more feats exponentially more useful. Search my sig and you should find something called the Tao Points system, it was an idea I had. Basically you should make high level feats wicked strong when used in conjunction, so every melee character has one or two awesome combat tricks used by combining feats, maybe characters with some bonus feats like monks and rangers have two or three, but the Fighter has all the feats and thus has five, six, seven wicked cool tricks and thus is useful in a variety of combat situations. That's how the Fighter is supposed to work now, but he falls awfully short. Some time ago somebody posted in the Feats forum something from Mongoose's "Quintessential Fighter", I think it was #II of the book. It was a feat that granted additional bonuses depending on what other feats the character had. Something along the line: If you have this feat, you gain x benefit. But if you have this feat and feat a, you gain x+y benefit. If you have this feat and feat b, you gain x+z benefit. If you have all 3 feats, you gain x+y+z+w benefit. --- In summary, I don't want to give the fighter any options not available to the other combat classes, but I want to make those feat options more flexible in his hands than in the hands of any other class. No, I must disagree. Each class has something unique and special to it. But not the fighter. Barbarians have their rage, which cannot be duplicated by feats. Rangers have their favored enemies, which cannot be duplicated by feats. Rogues have their sneak attack, paladins their smite, druids their wild shape... all things that cannot be duplicated by feats. Even sorcerers and wizards differ in some spells (mordenkainen's lucubration,...) and feats (draconic heritage,...) which they can take. Therefore, the fighter also deserves something that cannot be replicated by other classes. An idea I had some time ago was (but which I have let go for lack of time and opportunity to develope the idea in detail) some kind of "metacombat" feats. Something like the following: Maximize Strike [Fighter, Metacombat] Prerequisites: Fighter level 4 Benefit: If you take a -3 penalty to your base attack bonus, this attack - if successful - deals maximum damage. Double Strike [Fighter, Metacombat] Prerequisites: Fighter level 4 Benefit: If you take a -2 penalty to your base attack bonus, You can make a second attack with the same bonus as the first one against the same, or a different, target. If this second attack hits, it deals half the damage (rounded down) the first attack did. Critical Strike [Fighter, Metacombat] Prerequisites: Fighter level 18 Benefit: If you take a -10 penalty to your base attack bonus, this attack - if successful - is automatically treated as a critical hit. Special: This feat cannot be used to trigger effects that are keyed to a natural 20, like the effect of a vorpal sword. Impact Strike [Fighter, Metacombat] Prerequisites: Fighter level 8 Benefit: If you take a -6 penalty to your base attack bonus, this attack is treated as a melee touch attack. If the attack succeeds, it deals only half the damage (rounded down) the attack would have inflicted otherwise. My idea was that you could even combine these feats, so if you wanted a melee touch attack that was automatically a critical hit if it suceeds, you would have your BAB reduced by a whopping 16pts. And that the effects would be cumulative, which means that the example from above would deal half the damge a normal critical hit of the character would inflict. --- Not only, I said both. If he can't charge or turn, at least he can heal, or guard. Ohh... :blush: sorry. Seems that I missed that bit. Of course you're right. The paladin - just as the ranger - has uses outside of combat. --- Like many of the other combat classes, the paladin suffers from a lack of options. At least he can still smite and turn. Making mounted combat more flexible - you have to be a Small race to use it practically in most campaigns - would help. "Alternative paladin styles" may be an option here too, take the Dragon Steed feat from the Draconomicon or the half-orc racial substitution levels in Races of Destiny for starters. But you cannot say that mounted combat is an option for all characters, because small characters can use it almost always, can you? I'd really like to see non-mounted paladin variants, because my FR paladin of Kelemvor, on the Fugue Plane he resides now, had never the opportunity to develope (or use) a special mount. It would have much too cumbersome to get around with the horse the whole day. I know WotC changed the special mount to some calling/summoning thing, but I guess you don't want to summon your mount only for 3 rounds, especially since you can only summon it 1/day at all. I'd really like the idea of an ability similar to the special weapon of a kensai, or more flexible abilities like that of the tattooed monk. Not like it is now: "Now you get a mount" - "But I don't want or need one" - "Now you get a mount" - "But..." - "YOU GET A MOUNT. PERIOD!!" And please, don't get me started on racial substitution levels. As they are written now, I utterly despise them. They are not only unfair, but drool of favoritism. What is the reason a half-orc paladin is special, but an human paladin is not? Why is a halfling druid special, but an elven druid is not? Either they write substitution levels for all races and all classes, or they let go of this idea. And I happily try to ignore RoEbberon for that. Shifter wilder? Has the ability to spontaneously regain pps, while THE psionic race (Kalashtar) doesn't have any special wilders? :uh-huh: Or what about changeling rogue? At 3 levels he gains 10+Int skill points, and at the last substitution level he gains a freaking 50% fortification. Twice as good as a warforged, who doesn't have any internal organs to start with. :nonono: :nonono: :noway:!!! --- It's the Soulknife Effect: you're saving money on equipment, but without any other seriously reliable options you have to spend your money to compensate for the weaknesses caused by the lack of decent options. Hmm... I suppose you're right. But at least you only loose ~90k, and not 170k, gp when some giant sunders your bow. --- Fair enough, but give the guy more uses of those abilities per day. Aren't the noncasters supposed to have the "per day" stamina? Well, a fighter without magical healing ususally can get into a serious combat 1/day, because afterwards he won't have any HPs left to survive a second one. I mean, if he even survives the first combat at all. What about the simple idea to make all those abilities 1/day +1/day/level gained after the level you got access to that specific ability? So that a level 10 Arcane Archer could use seeker arrow 7/day, phase arrow 5/day, hail of arrows 3/day, and arrow of death as written? --- Great prestige class, flavorful and balanced, way it works is that you gain a pool of "shadow points" which power the PrC's abilities and grows with the levels you take in the PrC, and your nifty tricks run off of that. And I know psionic combat:yuck:, I was thinking more along the lines of similar stuff that doesn't suck like the feats Arcane Strike and Draconic Breath. I personally think that draconic breath is crap. The spell dragon breath is so much more effective on a damage/spellslot ratio, that it's not even funny. And the greatest benefit of the spell compared to the feat is: you can use metabreath feats with the spell, but not with the feat. But arcane strike is a nice idea. At least now wizards aren't completely owned if a orc gets into melee range. I personally would suggest something more in the line of the archmage. If you spend a spellslot of level x for ability y, you gain benefit z for x hours, or such. Or even 2*x hours. To make it really worth the expenditure and not like psionic combat or draconic breath just a way to waste slots you could have put to better use with spells. --- Which is why intelligent Kensai add the Metalline enhancement to their weapons as quickly as possible and keep it as Adamantine. Really, if that's your only problem with it, rule that he invests that XP in the practice of the bow and that enhancement applies to any arrow he draws. Is the metalline enhancement allowed for the CWar Kensai? IIRC, he has a list from where he can pick his weapon abilities, similar like the soulknife. But the idea with "the arrow is the way, not the bow" is a good idea. But it might be a little overpowered. Isn't that the reason the list the soulknife can choose his mindblade enhancements from is so limited? To prevent abuse and possibly broken combos on a weapon you can never again take away from the characer? --- Through Ranger coolness like Arrow Mind, and Guided Shot, and Words of Creation/Inspire Courage for great damage and to hit increases that can be shared with the whole party. And if my foe is a favored enemy... Let me guess... spells from CAdv? But wouldn't a Ranger/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer with a bard cohort be even better? --- Not weaker, I said has a harder time of catch up. Compare a level 16 Wiz3/Clr3/MT10 and 7th level spells in both to a Necromancer3/Clr3/TN10. What's the TN casting? Hmm? I see the benefits. It is good. But compared to what casters already had for options, I repeat: IJNTU. Ok, I just wrongly remembered the TN. You are right. The caster level increase is not symmetrical with the TN like it is with the MT. --- Not to say it isn't broken, but it's not more broken than normal casters, and should not be nerfed exclusively. Just nerf the spells, like we agree. Really, without Gate and Miracle and a lot of other 9th level spell cheese (the 9th level SLAs the TN gets are the most balanced spells of that level, actually) this guy's a deal safer than the straight casters. The problem is: these SLAs are things that are - what a coincidence :rolleyes: - most useful to a single BBEG with hordes of undead, but not for a player character. So, the TN is perfectly suited to :censored: your party up and down through the dungeon. --- *nods* And if you want both mobility and high AC, be a monk or a Champion of Corellon Larethian. I suppose a Sorceror/Monk/Enlightened Fist could pull off high mobility and defense and spell power, but his attack bonus could suck. Yes, I suppose you're right. But the prerequisites for CoCL are so freaking high, you cannot usually enter the class before level 8 or 9, so for a gish that should be out of question. --- I suppose those are options. Remember PSC is only a +4 bonus with my system, and can only be taken once per spellcasting class, and if used to negate ACP then cannot raise CL for lost levels from PrCs like Dragonslayer. The thing is: you are granting a bonus to full casters which the ordinarily wouldn't have been able to attain so easily. A single classed wizard dons mithril plate armor, grabs PSC, and all of the sudden has no penalties any more? Sorry, but this seems just wrong to me. --- Ah ah ah - I get that temporary +4 to CL as long as I have those temporary HD. Per the RAW it works. Yes I am exalted, what if I use this to raise my CL and make my healing spells stronger, hmm? Is that not good? Do not mistake evil activity by the player (cheesing stuff out) for evil activity by the character. Otherwise you have to throw out the BoED, that's got some crazy overpowered brokenness. Fist of Raziel? Vow of Poverty druids? C'mon! As for mind blank, I'll take a Spell Turning instead :D Mind Blank is best for low-Will characters like melee types. Besides, a bard can give bonuses to saves and everything. Wait a moment: you have to justify your actions to others? Sorry, but in my opinion you've already lost. And of course, just as a coincidence, your CL for Holy Word has also increased... :rolleyes: ;) I never doubted that the BoED was a munchin's wet dream come true. :D I even myself had the idea of a sorcerer/monk/enlightened fist, as a follower of Illmater (FR) and with a lantern archon as celestial familiar. My main idea was to take only spells that buff or have non combat uses, so no fireballs or such, but alas my DM didn't allow it :(. --- I gain +4 to CL, and so does every other ally who's a full caster with the PSC feat (look! sharing with allies! Isn't that a good act?). I can use an instrument, which at worst means I need Still Spell. Hell, Inspire Greatness' effects last for 5 rounds after I stop singing anyways, or two whole minutes if I take that feat from CAdv. And a DM like that is neither being fair nor playing to the rules if he doesn't take into account what I'm using that uber CL for. Hell, it's more dangerous in the hands of the party cleric (who can combine it with Beads of Karma and Divine Spell Power, and then the Good domain, and then Holy Word the opposition into oblivion). I think you are wrong about that thing with the instrument. The bardic music entry in the bard class specifically mentions that you cannot cast spells or use command word or spell completion activated items. So no "I use an instrument and use still spell for my spells", sorry. And I also never doubted that the cleric class or cleric spells were not overpowered, or at least simply too good not to use them. Hmm... "the cleric is too strong"... also seems somewhat familiar, doesn't it? ;) --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
smrtgmp 06-01-05, 04:53 AM	Just one thing. Arcane Strike most definately does not suck. Its a big part of nearly every gish build I've ever seen for a good reason. If you have a lot of attacks/round, that bonus to hit and damage can be staggering.
RadicalTaoist 06-01-05, 08:25 PM	Hey, Radical Taoist? On what page does this "Whispercast" lie? I'm trying to find it in LoM, but I'm having no luck. Help? XD It's in the Body Stealers chapter. The spell was developed by the tsochari, but anyone can use it. EDIT: I'll get to you tomorrow, Ra-Tiel, promise. I work the graveyard shift next morning and need to sleep.
Elgonn 06-01-05, 08:38 PM	I'm against the current implementation of ASF because it is too harsh of a penalty to essentially lose a couple magical item slots and the unique enchantments that go with them. Yes there are ways to mitigate this (or optional rules that indirectly affect it). Random penalties are also just bad design. In addition I find it odd that 2nd Edition Psionics had ASF (kinda) but lack it entirely in 3rd+.
RadicalTaoist 06-02-05, 07:48 PM	105hp with a 14con. It's much more likely that this guy has a con ~20 (with amulets of health or similar items), which would boost his HPs by at least another 60pts. Don't forget that he can use contingency with something like: "If I cast iron body on myself, trigger a tenser's transformation on me". Or he could get mad with Craft Contingent Spell and pull off the classical Stoneskin+Mirror Image+Displacement combo. Nice. But just not quite enough. Not to forget freedom of movement. What grapple check? Easily one of the most useful rings to wear, Contingencied D. Doors have a few advantages though. Like, if it's big and mean enough to eat you, why would you not want to 'port as far away from it as possible? This guy can get a very high AC: 10base+2dex+8bracers+4shield+5ring+5natu ral=34total, 17vs touch. And I'm not even trying. And with a more reasonable con score for level 20, his HPs border close to ~170. And don't forget his defensive spells. Please remember: NO person runs around the whole day carrying a tower shield in front of them. So, even your tower shield (or whatever shield he might be using) wearing fighter might also need a round to get up a significant part of his defense. Oh, it is nice. But it's not enough to gish with. You are better off doing something like: And for effectiveness in combat... I guess a quickened and via metamagic rod empowered shivering touch followed by a coup de grace with a maximized disintegrate should take care of most enemies. Excellent! Spell combat! What your character is designed to do, considering that he's got an AC not beyond anything a focused caster can get. Some time ago somebody posted in the Feats forum something from Mongoose's "Quintessential Fighter", I think it was #II of the book. It was a feat that granted additional bonuses depending on what other feats the character had. Something along the line: If you have this feat, you gain x benefit. But if you have this feat and feat a, you gain x+y benefit. If you have this feat and feat b, you gain x+z benefit. If you have all 3 feats, you gain x+y+z+w benefit. Wow. That's an awesome idea. *gears start spinning in head* No, I must disagree. Each class has something unique and special to it. But not the fighter. Barbarians have their rage, which cannot be duplicated by feats. Rangers have their favored enemies, which cannot be duplicated by feats. Rogues have their sneak attack, paladins their smite, druids their wild shape... all things that cannot be duplicated by feats. Even sorcerers and wizards differ in some spells (mordenkainen's lucubration,...) and feats (draconic heritage,...) which they can take. Therefore, the fighter also deserves something that cannot be replicated by other classes. An idea I had some time ago was (but which I have let go for lack of time and opportunity to develope the idea in detail) some kind of "metacombat" feats. My idea was that you could even combine these feats, so if you wanted a melee touch attack that was automatically a critical hit if it suceeds, you would have your BAB reduced by a whopping 16pts. And that the effects would be cumulative, which means that the example from above would deal half the damge a normal critical hit of the character would inflict.Interesting idea, tricky implementation. As for the touch attack, I will roll with Wild Talent and Deep Impact instead tyvm. But you cannot say that mounted combat is an option for all characters, because small characters can use it almost always, can you? I'd really like to see non-mounted paladin variants, because my FR paladin of Kelemvor, on the Fugue Plane he resides now, had never the opportunity to develope (or use) a special mount. It would have much too cumbersome to get around with the horse the whole day. I know WotC changed the special mount to some calling/summoning thing, but I guess you don't want to summon your mount only for 3 rounds, especially since you can only summon it 1/day at all. I'd really like the idea of an ability similar to the special weapon of a kensai, or more flexible abilities like that of the tattooed monk. Not like it is now: "Now you get a mount" - "But I don't want or need one" - "Now you get a mount" - "But..." - "YOU GET A MOUNT. PERIOD!!" Yeah, forcing classes into limited combat options is a bad idea. I'd like to see variant rages for TWF barbarians, for example. The lack of options is a problem whacking every combat class with the exception of the Ranger and the Psychic Warrior. And please, don't get me started on racial substitution levels. As they are written now, I utterly despise them. They are not only unfair, but drool of favoritism. What is the reason a half-orc paladin is special, but an human paladin is not? Why is a halfling druid special, but an elven druid is not? Either they write substitution levels for all races and all classes, or they let go of this idea. And I happily try to ignore RoEbberon for that. Shifter wilder? Has the ability to spontaneously regain pps, while THE psionic race (Kalashtar) doesn't have any special wilders? :uh-huh: Or what about changeling rogue? At 3 levels he gains 10+Int skill points, and at the last substitution level he gains a freaking 50% fortification. Twice as good as a warforged, who doesn't have any internal organs to start with. :nonono: :nonono: :noway:!!! I find racial substitution levels awesome and flavorful. Not to say that there are enough, I'd like to see more, but for the most part they are cool, and not overpowered (though shifter wilder comes close, the psychometabolism powers for free is bigger though). The kalashtar got their racial subs fine, telepath is more their style than wilder anyways, ditto soulknife. Now if you're saying that more races need sub levels and there should be sub levels available to everyone than yes I agree, look at the planar sub levels in the Planar Handbook, great stuff. Let's see exalted sub levels, vile sub levels, maybe psionic sub levels for the nonpsionic classes (a psionic paladin who gains the ability to drain pps from an evil psionic foe with each smite would be cool as all hell). And campaign settings should have regional and cultural substitution levels as well. Well, a fighter without magical healing ususally can get into a serious combat 1/day, because afterwards he won't have any HPs left to survive a second one. I mean, if he even survives the first combat at all. Precisely the problem. What about the simple idea to make all those abilities 1/day +1/day/level gained after the level you got access to that specific ability? So that a level 10 Arcane Archer could use seeker arrow 7/day, phase arrow 5/day, hail of arrows 3/day, and arrow of death as written? That's beautiful. And simple. I :love: it. I personally think that draconic breath is crap. The spell dragon breath is so much more effective on a damage/spellslot ratio, that it's not even funny. And the greatest benefit of the spell compared to the feat is: you can use metabreath feats with the spell, but not with the feat. Actually you can use metabreath spells with Draconic Breath and the Dragon Breath spell, see the wording "convert spell slots into a breath weapon". Which is key. It basically gives the option of having the sorceror work like a Kineticist, with the ability to blow all their high level resources into incredible damage outputs. Given that the Sorceror has far more in the way of resources than the Kineticist, it's a winning proposition. Hey, it's expensive, but spending a 9th level slot (Draconic Breath feat) and an 8th level slot (Breath Admixture) to smoke foes with a 36d6 two-element blast as a standard action is pretty impressive. I personally would suggest something more in the line of the archmage. If you spend a spellslot of level x for ability y, you gain benefit z for x hours, or such. Or even 2*x hours. To make it really worth the expenditure and not like psionic combat or draconic breath just a way to waste slots you could have put to better use with spells. That's also an awesome idea. The question is what mechanics to use it with... Is the metalline enhancement allowed for the CWar Kensai? IIRC, he has a list from where he can pick his weapon abilities, similar like the soulknife. But the idea with "the arrow is the way, not the bow" is a good idea. But it might be a little overpowered. Isn't that the reason the list the soulknife can choose his mindblade enhancements from is so limited? To prevent abuse and possibly broken combos on a weapon you can never again take away from the character? Think for a second. The Soulknife overpowered? Equipment simply can't make up for lack of character options. They have only made weapon enhancements that uber in the Epic Level Handbook. Let me guess... spells from CAdv? But wouldn't a Ranger/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer with a bard cohort be even better?Got it in one. You know what I'd like to see? An elven bard/ranger mutliclasser PrC. The problem is: these SLAs are things that are - what a coincidence :rolleyes: - most useful to a single BBEG with hordes of undead, but not for a player character. So, the TN is perfectly suited to :censored: your party up and down through the dungeon. Considering the guy's MAD I guess so. Yes, I suppose you're right. But the prerequisites for CoCL are so freaking high, you cannot usually enter the class before level 8 or 9, so for a gish that should be out of question. The cool thing about the CoCL is that it's one of the ways a noncaster can focus to achieve something a caster can't do. The thing is: you are granting a bonus to full casters which the ordinarily wouldn't have been able to attain so easily. A single classed wizard dons mithril plate armor, grabs PSC, and all of the sudden has no penalties any more? Sorry, but this seems just wrong to me. But at the cost of PSC's normal options. I'm just giving a feat a second use. And as we've discussed, armor can be attained pretty easily by full casters. Wait a moment: you have to justify your actions to others? Sorry, but in my opinion you've already lost. And of course, just as a coincidence, your CL for Holy Word has also increased... :rolleyes: ;) Justify nothing. I got more power and I use it for good. It's more of an alignment debate. I think you are wrong about that thing with the instrument. The bardic music entry in the bard class specifically mentions that you cannot cast spells or use command word or spell completion activated items. So no "I use an instrument and use still spell for my spells", sorry. Whoopee, I'll just stop singing and enjoy the +4 to CL for four rounds then. And I also never doubted that the cleric class or cleric spells were not overpowered, or at least simply too good not to use them. Hmm... "the cleric is too strong"... also seems somewhat familiar, doesn't it? ;) Well, the problem is that the cleric has too many options for raising the CL: beads of karma, orange ioun stones, Divine Spell Power, domains, etc. etc. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist.
Ra-Tiel 06-03-05, 07:48 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Nice. But just not quite enough. Hmm... I guess you're right. But at least this guy isn't as helpless as a pure wizard when something gets close and can do a bit more than point his staff at the opponent and hysterically shout: "GO AWAY!". --- Easily one of the most useful rings to wear, Contingencied D. Doors have a few advantages though. Like, if it's big and mean enough to eat you, why would you not want to 'port as far away from it as possible? That seems like a good idea. But the question is: why weren't you flying, anyways? ;) --- Oh, it is nice. But it's not enough to gish with. You are better off doing something like: Excellent! Spell combat! What your character is designed to do, considering that he's got an AC not beyond anything a focused caster can get. But in contrast to a normal wizard, this guy has a better chance of hitting his opponent with his touch attacks, and enough HPs to (probably) survive one round in melee to even be able to get out of close range combat after the enemy's full attack. --- Wow. That's an awesome idea. *gears start spinning in head* I've also been thinking about it, but haven't had the time to develope the idea further. Basically, it could work like the following: Weapon Mastery Prerequisites: BAB 6 Benefit: You choose a single weapon. With this weapon you gain a +1 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls. Special: If you also have weapon focus with the chosen weapon, the bonus on attack rolls increases to +3 total, instead of +1 from this feat and +1 from weapon focus. If you also have weapon specialization with the chosen weapon, the bonus on damage rolls increases to +4 total, instead of +1 from this feat and +2 from weapon specialization. If you have weapon focus and weapon specialization, the bonuses to attack and damage rolls increase to +5 each, instead of the normal values above. If you have weapon focus and improved critical with the chosen weapon, the critical multiplier increases by +1. Perhaps the fighter just needs some feats in this style to gain that little extra to be competative at high level play. Think of the synergies such a feat could create between weapon focus, improved critical, improved trip, and/or improved disarm. Something like: every critical hit is also automatically a trip attempt with an additional bonus. Or something similar. --- Interesting idea, tricky implementation. As for the touch attack, I will roll with Wild Talent and Deep Impact instead tyvm. I know that wild talent with deep impact was better, but I had the idea to give the fighter something not every other character can achieve, especially when the DM says: "No psionics!" or only allows psionic/magical classes to be taken at first level (which I can very well understand because seriously, according to fluff text it takes years of study to even master cantrips, but a character can gain 3 levels of wizard in a single month if he just kills enough orcs? :noway: in most campaigns). I was thinking in (obviously) a similar way like metamagic feats. Metamagic feats increase (usually) the level of the neccessary spellslot, so I thought that a reduction of the BAB (which could very well result in fewer attacks per round) was a good method of balancing the benefits. As I've said, I never fully developed this idea. --- Yeah, forcing classes into limited combat options is a bad idea. I'd like to see variant rages for TWF barbarians, for example. The lack of options is a problem whacking every combat class with the exception of the Ranger and the Psychic Warrior. I agree with you. But also the ranger also is basically forced to choose between 2W fighting and archery. No spears, no thrown weapons, no 2H fighting, no weapon&shield,... A recent issue of Dragon magazine had variant combat styles for rangers in its "Class Acts", which just covered those styles mentioned above. I really liked to see a way to make for example an archery focused, undead hunting, agile and light armored paladin without having to cherrypick feats and (Pr)Cs from LM, CWar, CAdv and CDiv. Or a fullplate wearing, sneak-attacking frontline bastard of rogue, something like a non-divine/non-evil "blackguard", who is bluffing the hell out of his enemies and then "relieves" them of their vital organs. --- I find racial substitution levels awesome and flavorful. Not to say that there are enough, I'd like to see more, but for the most part they are cool, and not overpowered (though shifter wilder comes close, the psychometabolism powers for free is bigger though). The kalashtar got their racial subs fine, telepath is more their style than wilder anyways, ditto soulknife. Now if you're saying that more races need sub levels and there should be sub levels available to everyone than yes I agree, look at the planar sub levels in the Planar Handbook, great stuff. Let's see exalted sub levels, vile sub levels, maybe psionic sub levels for the nonpsionic classes (a psionic paladin who gains the ability to drain pps from an evil psionic foe with each smite would be cool as all hell). And campaign settings should have regional and cultural substitution levels as well. Changeling rogue, elven wizard, anyone? I mean, having 40+4*Intmod skill points at first level is pretty much crazy. And getting a 50% fortification at IIRC 6th level is simply wrong. Much more wrong considering that warforged are the only "base race" with a built-in fortification. I fail to see the reason why a living and breathing being should be more resistant to critical hits than a artificially created construct who doesn't have any bloodvessels or vital organs at all. And what about elven wizard? Basically, it's (almost) better than a specialist but without the drawbacks. With the second part of you comment, I wholeheartedly agree. I really liked to see more reasonable (MIND YOU, WOTC!!!) sub levels for all races. The suggestions you've just made are extremely interesting. I really like'd to see some of them become real in future supplements. Hmm... vile sub levels for wizard.... :drool: ... or exalted sub levels for paladin :angel: ... or planar sub levels for psion :cloud9: :D --- Precisely the problem. Sounds like a more general variant of "Reserve Points" should make its way into the game. This would take off the pressure from a player to play a walking band-aid, and a group without a cleric (or druid, or paladin, or bard) could survive more than one combat per day. --- That's beautiful. And simple. I :love: it. Thank you. This way, the class would have enough OOMPF compared to the more recent PrCs, even without additional casterlevels. And IMHO, it would compare much better to the fluff text (to give some magical power to characters who focus on mundane combat, and not on spell casting). --- Actually you can use metabreath spells with Draconic Breath and the Dragon Breath spell, see the wording "convert spell slots into a breath weapon". Which is key. It basically gives the option of having the sorceror work like a Kineticist, with the ability to blow all their high level resources into incredible damage outputs. Given that the Sorceror has far more in the way of resources than the Kineticist, it's a winning proposition. Hey, it's expensive, but spending a 9th level slot (Draconic Breath feat) and an 8th level slot (Breath Admixture) to smoke foes with a 36d6 two-element blast as a standard action is pretty impressive. Are you sure? IIRC, the metabreath feats require a breath weapon which recycles in a time which is measured in rounds. If my memory serves me right, this rules draconic breath out, because this feat is not recharged in rounds, but by your expenditure of spellslots. --- That's also an awesome idea. The question is what mechanics to use it with... Hmm... somwthing like this, perhaps? Enhance Arrows: The Arcane Archer can imbue the arrows he draws with magical power he usually would spend on spells. If the character expends a spellslot to power this ability, he gains an enhancement bonus to all arrows he fires from any bow equal to the level of the spellslot expended for up to 1 hour per caster level. Arcane Archer levels stack with arcane caster levels for this ability. This ability overrides any enhancement bonuses the actual weapon or ammunition the Arcane Archer uses provide. Augment Arrows: The Arcane Archer can augment the arrows he draws with special abilities with the energy he would normally use to cast spells. If the character expends a spellslot to power this ability, he can grant a special magical ability from the DMG to all arrows he fires from any bow with a enhancement bonus cost equal to the level of the spellslot expended for up to 1 hour per caster level. Arcane Archer levels stack with arcane caster levels for this ability. Multiple applications of this ability stack. An Arcane Archer must first use at least a level 1 spellslot to grant an enhancement bonus to his arrows before he can add magical properties, just as normal for magical weapons and ammunition. The magical property chosen must be applicable to ranged weapons or ammunition. This ability overrides any magical weapon properties the actual weapon or ammunition the Arcane Archer uses possess. Example: Syndera the Arcane Archer wants to improve his firepower for the day. She has 2 levels of fighter, 5 levels of wizard and 5 levels of Arcane Archer, so her caster level for Enhance Arrows and Augment Arrows is 10. Knowing that she and her party are going to infiltrate the lair of a lich this day, she chooses to spend 1 first level spell slot to grant each arrow she fires a +1 enhancement bonus for the next 10 hours. Additionally, she expends another level 1 spellslot and a level 2 spellslot and takes the magical properties bane(undead) and holy. So, for the next 10 hours, every arrows she fires is treated as a +1 holy bane(undead) arrow, regardless of the weapon it is fired from. I'm almost positive that as written above, it would be terribly overpowered, but I guess you can see where I'm going. --- Think for a second. The Soulknife overpowered? Equipment simply can't make up for lack of character options. They have only made weapon enhancements that uber in the Epic Level Handbook. No, I didn't say the soulknive was overpowered, but I'm sure you could break it very easy if each and every magical weapon property was allowed to the soulknive to choose from the list. The soulknive (almost) wouldn't have any problems with DR anymore (metalline and surestriking), and would be able to DEVESTATE encounters if he knew what the party was going up to. Like: Player: "So, this evil wizard we are going to assault today is fond of summoning demons to his aid? I make my mind blade bane(evil outsider), bane(chaotic outsider) and holy! :D That's +4+6d6 bonus damage vs demons. :D :plotting: :evillaugh" DM: :twitch: *sigh* And if you allowed epic enhancements on this list, it would only get worse. Especially if you think of that there is NO way to take that weapon away from the character again. A fighter's sword, barbarian's axe, or even a wizard's spellbook can get stolen/sundered/burned/disintegrated/whatever, but you cannot take away the mindblade from the soulknife. I guess that's the same reason spontaneous casters/manifesters must spend feats to learn additional spells/powers, and don't get them with level increases. As it is written now, think the soulknife is even a bit weak, but in now way horribly underpowered as some seem to claim because it cannot compare to a munched-out barbarian/bear warrior/frenzied berserker/whatever damage monster. --- Got it in one. You know what I'd like to see? An elven bard/ranger mutliclasser PrC. I really miss bard/cleric, especially for FR (think of Sune, or Liira, or Shareess). --- Considering the guy's MAD I guess so. Of course, you're right. But to me this PrC screams "DM-only-BEBENVEG" (big, exteremly bad, extremely necromantic involved, very evil guy) --- The cool thing about the CoCL is that it's one of the ways a noncaster can focus to achieve something a caster can't do. I fully agree with you. Finally something that's hard to achieve, but gives benefits that cannot simply be copied with spells and/or feats. But I even think, the CoCL is a bit on the heavy side, just as the dwarf is for LA+0. --- But at the cost of PSC's normal options. I'm just giving a feat a second use. And as we've discussed, armor can be attained pretty easily by full casters. Hmm... I really see your point, and I agree with you on the second part (that even in the current system, full casters can gain the benefits of armor if they just expend enough [monetary] resources for it). But I still think that applying the full benefit of PSC to armor is too much. With that rule, full casters would - again! - have a greater benefit than gishes. And I remember your comment from some time ago that you wanted to improve the gishes' chance of survival a bit with that rule. Perhaps with a clause like "but only half the benefit gained from Practiced Spellcaster can be used to offsett the penalty wearing armor inflicts on the caster"? So you could (as a full caster) wear armor with an CLP of -2 without problems, and more restrictive armor would have its penalty reduced by -2. A gish on the other hand, would gain the same benefits a full caster would gain from the feat, but additionally, PSC would reduce the CL hit a gish suffers from multiclassing by -2. This way, a full caster would still gain a significant benefit from this feat, but a gish would benefit more from PSC (which is the spirit of the feat as written now, and as was you initial proposal, I guess). --- Justify nothing. I got more power and I use it for good. It's more of an alignment debate. Yes, let's not tread on this slippery ground, ok? Better for all of us (and this thread). I'm sorry, I won't bring this up again. --- Whoopee, I'll just stop singing and enjoy the +4 to CL for four rounds then. Ok that's for you, but you've just spent an action activating your bardic music (which as a caster is usually better spent wasting or hindering the enemy) and you are not protected from mind-affecting effects. Hmm... better hope the enemy casters didn't divine the hell out of you and just don't plaster you now with hold monster, feeblemind and irresistable dance. --- Well, the problem is that the cleric has too many options for raising the CL: beads of karma, orange ioun stones, Divine Spell Power, domains, etc. etc. That is not the problem. The problem is: you can use all of these abilities in conjunction and gain an INSANE bonus to CL when you combine them. I'd rule that you can only increase your CL from one source, like either domain or orange ioun stone but never both. So you'd have a bonus if you chose the right domain, but you cannot push this bonus upwards by using an orange ioun stone, because both provide a +1 bonus. This way, there'd be no way for insane Holy Word/Blasphemy combos with that a level 20 cleric can right away simply kill a balor without a save. Or the evil level 18 cleric simply kills the whole party without a save (hey, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander! :evillaugh). --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 06-04-05, 06:54 PM	Hmm... I guess you're right. But at least this guy isn't as helpless as a pure wizard when something gets close and can do a bit more than point his staff at the opponent and hysterically shout: "GO AWAY!". --- But in contrast to a normal wizard, this guy has a better chance of hitting his opponent with his touch attacks, and enough HPs to (probably) survive one round in melee to even be able to get out of close range combat after the enemy's full attack. More like survive a couple of AoOs. Which is fine. If he wants that to be his thing, sure. That seems like a good idea. But the question is: why weren't you flying, anyways? ;) Touché. I've also been thinking about it, but haven't had the time to develop the idea further. Perhaps the fighter just needs some feats in this style to gain that little extra to be competative at high level play. Think of the synergies such a feat could create between weapon focus, improved critical, improved trip, and/or improved disarm. Something like: every critical hit is also automatically a trip attempt with an additional bonus. Or something similar. You know what would be awesome for synergies? The Weapon Style feats from Complete Warrior. They seemed a little weak for their flavor to me, but could be really cool with this idea. Like that grapple-happy axe and dagger style gets synergies from Clever Wrestling, Close-Quarters Fighting, etc. I was thinking in (obviously) a similar way like metamagic feats. Metamagic feats increase (usually) the level of the neccessary spellslot, so I thought that a reduction of the BAB (which could very well result in fewer attacks per round) was a good method of balancing the benefits. As I've said, I never fully developed this idea....hmmm...maybe make it cost attacks out of a full attack action? That would give 2WF a powerup it needs sorely. I agree with you. But also the ranger also is basically forced to choose between 2W fighting and archery. No spears, no thrown weapons, no 2H fighting, no weapon&shield,... A recent issue of Dragon magazine had variant combat styles for rangers in its "Class Acts", which just covered those styles mentioned above. I really liked to see a way to make for example an archery focused, undead hunting, agile and light armored paladin without having to cherrypick feats and (Pr)Cs from LM, CWar, CAdv and CDiv. Well you can make rangers who use thrown weapons, fun as hell to play actually, but that's with normal feat choices. I agree with you completely. That "witch hunter" paladin sounds great. Or a fullplate wearing, sneak-attacking frontline bastard of rogue, something like a non-divine/non-evil "blackguard", who is bluffing the hell out of his enemies and then "relieves" them of their vital organs. :rofl: "I'll take that, thank you!" Changeling rogue, elven wizard, anyone? I mean, having 40+4*Intmod skill points at first level is pretty much crazy. And getting a 50% fortification at IIRC 6th level is simply wrong. Much more wrong considering that warforged are the only "base race" with a built-in fortification. I fail to see the reason why a living and breathing being should be more resistant to critical hits than a artificially created construct who doesn't have any bloodvessels or vital organs at all. And what about elven wizard? Basically, it's (almost) better than a specialist but without the drawbacks.Hey, it's what the changeling rogue does. And that's fine. Rogues are the l337 sk1llz d00dz anyways, what's 8 more skill points at 1st level? 2 more maxed skills. Cool. The warforged can get perfect fortification with a feat at level 1 (or 2, if you take warforged fighter). The 6th level RSL for changeling rogues is fine as is. A character can start getting it in armor by then anyways. In one level, the Wizard can polymorph you into something with perfect fortification. And being a specialist to begin with is a poor option for a wizard. In short, it's all good...(wait for it)...BIJNTU. With the second part of you comment, I wholeheartedly agree. I really liked to see more reasonable (MIND YOU, WOTC!!!) sub levels for all races. The suggestions you've just made are extremely interesting. I really like'd to see some of them become real in future supplements. Hmm... vile sub levels for wizard.... :drool: ... or exalted sub levels for paladin :angel: ... or planar sub levels for psion :cloud9: :DYou know what might be the next cool thing? Prestige Substitution Levels that you have to qualify for. Sounds like a more general variant of "Reserve Points" should make its way into the game. This would take off the pressure from a player to play a walking band-aid, and a group without a cleric (or druid, or paladin, or bard) could survive more than one combat per day. Just more options for over the day healing, please. Like that Fast Healing feat in CW, good start. More classes like the Paladin and Bard (secondary healers) or like the Psywar (can supply their own healing). Hell, something I've been tossing around in my head were Rage feats, which would allow a barbarian to expend uses of Rage to gain powerful temporary effects. One idea I had would let a barbarian, as a swift (or maybe even immediate) action, gain temporary hit points equal to 5 times their barbarian (or maybe character) level, but they disappear after one round if not used up. Kind of a "tough out the dragon's full attack for one more round" thing. Thank you. This way, the class would have enough OOMPF compared to the more recent PrCs, even without additional casterlevels. And IMHO, it would compare much better to the fluff text (to give some magical power to characters who focus on mundane combat, and not on spell casting). Certainly. You could always make a "Spellbow" prestige class for the caster who want to shoot things. Are you sure? IIRC, the metabreath feats require a breath weapon which recycles in a time which is measured in rounds. If my memory serves me right, this rules draconic breath out, because this feat is not recharged in rounds, but by your expenditure of spellslots. No, not metabreath feats, metabreath spells, look in the Dragon Spells section in the Draconomicon. Dispelling Breath, Rebuking Breath, Enervating Breath, all that good stuff. I'm almost positive that as written above, it would be terribly overpowered, but I guess you can see where I'm going. Only allow the Augment Arrows option. The base enhancement should only follow the normal progression for the AA. And no special qualities with enhancement costs higher than your natural enhancement (no flaming burst until all your arrows are +2 arrows, for example). No, I didn't say the soulknive was overpowered, but I'm sure you could break it very easy if each and every magical weapon property was allowed to the soulknive to choose from the list. The soulknive (almost) wouldn't have any problems with DR anymore (metalline and surestriking), and would be able to DEVESTATE encounters if he knew what the party was going up to. Like: Player: "So, this evil wizard we are going to assault today is fond of summoning demons to his aid? I make my mind blade bane(evil outsider), bane(chaotic outsider) and holy! :D That's +4+6d6 bonus damage vs demons. :D :plotting: :evillaugh" DM: :twitch: *sigh* As DM, I'd rejoice that this weapon was in the hands of a d8 HD character with Rogue AC, half the stealth/mobility of a rogue or ranger, and a majority of class abilities that are worthless against the wizard's golem, or anything mind blanked. And if you allowed epic enhancements on this list, it would only get worse. Especially if you think of that there is NO way to take that weapon away from the character again. A fighter's sword, barbarian's axe, or even a wizard's spellbook can get stolen/sundered/burned/disintegrated/whatever, but you cannot take away the mindblade from the soulknife. I guess that's the same reason spontaneous casters/manifesters must spend feats to learn additional spells/powers, and don't get them with level increases. Yeah, it's the Soulknife's thing. It's what they do best. As it is written now, think the soulknife is even a bit weak, but in now way horribly underpowered as some seem to claim because it cannot compare to a munched-out barbarian/bear warrior/frenzied berserker/whatever damage monster. Lack of options, again. Of course, you're right. But to me this PrC screams "DM-only-BEBENVEG" (big, exteremly bad, extremely necromantic involved, very evil guy) Hey, it's a character type. And DMs need their powercreep too. I fully agree with you. Finally something that's hard to achieve, but gives benefits that cannot simply be copied with spells and/or feats. But I even think, the CoCL is a bit on the heavy side, just as the dwarf is for LA+0. So are the Dervish, Warmind, Illithid Slayer, etc. Hmm... I really see your point, and I agree with you on the second part (that even in the current system, full casters can gain the benefits of armor if they just expend enough [monetary] resources for it). But I still think that applying the full benefit of PSC to armor is too much. With that rule, full casters would - again! - have a greater benefit than gishes. And I remember your comment from some time ago that you wanted to improve the gishes' chance of survival a bit with that rule. Perhaps with a clause like "but only half the benefit gained from Practiced Spellcaster can be used to offsett the penalty wearing armor inflicts on the caster"? So you could (as a full caster) wear armor with an CLP of -2 without problems, and more restrictive armor would have its penalty reduced by -2. A gish on the other hand, would gain the same benefits a full caster would gain from the feat, but additionally, PSC would reduce the CL hit a gish suffers from multiclassing by -2. This way, a full caster would still gain a significant benefit from this feat, but a gish would benefit more from PSC (which is the spirit of the feat as written now, and as was you initial proposal, I guess). I suppose...but the wording would be HELL. The good thing about that idea is that it encourages the character to seek other ways of reducing ACP/raising caster levels, forcing more resources to be expended. Ok that's for you, but you've just spent an action activating your bardic music (which as a caster is usually better spent wasting or hindering the enemy) and you are not protected from mind-affecting effects. Hmm... better hope the enemy casters didn't divine the hell out of you and just don't plaster you now with hold monster, feeblemind and irresistable dance. Isn't starting singing a free action? No matter, I found the solution: Nonverbal Spellcasting from the Planar Handbook. HAH! That is not the problem. The problem is: you can use all of these abilities in conjunction and gain an INSANE bonus to CL when you combine them. I'd rule that you can only increase your CL from one source, like either domain or orange ioun stone but never both. So you'd have a bonus if you chose the right domain, but you cannot push this bonus upwards by using an orange ioun stone, because both provide a +1 bonus. I'd rather just make all those bonuses +1 and no more. And holy word/blasphemy/etc. need to be nerfed anyways. If they can use them all in conjunction, but they're all weak, then you'll be seeing characters with max CLs of 25. Which is okay if they're willing to spend the price. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist.
Ra-Tiel 06-06-05, 04:00 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: More like survive a couple of AoOs. Which is fine. If he wants that to be his thing, sure. AoOs? Did I miss something or does casting defensively with a DC of 15+spelllevel no longer negate any AoOs? --- You know what would be awesome for synergies? The Weapon Style feats from Complete Warrior. They seemed a little weak for their flavor to me, but could be really cool with this idea. Like that grapple-happy axe and dagger style gets synergies from Clever Wrestling, Close-Quarters Fighting, etc. Good idea, but I'd be careful, what combinations I'd allow for what class. In my opinion, only the fighter should have access to the most powerful and/or useful combos. --- ...hmmm...maybe make it cost attacks out of a full attack action? That would give 2WF a powerup it needs sorely. Well, the the penalty was applied to the BAB, not the total attack modifier, so you'd loose additional attacks if you took more than a -5 penalty. If your BAB gets reduced to below "1", you loose that additional attack. --- Hey, it's what the changeling rogue does. And that's fine. Rogues are the l337 sk1llz d00dz anyways, what's 8 more skill points at 1st level? 2 more maxed skills. Cool. The warforged can get perfect fortification with a feat at level 1 (or 2, if you take warforged fighter). The 6th level RSL for changeling rogues is fine as is. A character can start getting it in armor by then anyways. In one level, the Wizard can polymorph you into something with perfect fortification. And being a specialist to begin with is a poor option for a wizard. In short, it's all good...(wait for it)...BIJNTU. Even my Eberron DM said :noway: to the changeling rogue sub level 3. With that, the changeling simply treads too much on the warforged's territory. No other base race has an inbuilt fortification. If your changeling simply must have this ability, he can always go for the Warshaper PrC. But in my opinion, the 50% fortification is way too much. What would you say if I created a racial sub level for a certain race that gives better bonuses with stonecunning and against orcs and giants than the dwarf does, along with other bonuses? --- You know what might be the next cool thing? Prestige Substitution Levels that you have to qualify for. :OMG! No, please spare me that!!! Just think of it: "What? I cannot reach the pinnacle of elven arch magic because I don't have enough ranks in spot? WTF?! :twitch: :uh-huh: :twitch: Or: "What? Just because I don't have that many ranks in climb I cannot be the best tiefling blackguard?" :looloo: :nonono: --- Just more options for over the day healing, please. Like that Fast Healing feat in CW, good start. More classes like the Paladin and Bard (secondary healers) or like the Psywar (can supply their own healing). You mean like the monk with his wholeness of body ability? In my opinion, Reserve Points are a good alternative, especially if the party doesn't include a "walking band-aid". --- Hell, something I've been tossing around in my head were Rage feats, which would allow a barbarian to expend uses of Rage to gain powerful temporary effects. One idea I had would let a barbarian, as a swift (or maybe even immediate) action, gain temporary hit points equal to 5 times their barbarian (or maybe character) level, but they disappear after one round if not used up. Kind of a "tough out the dragon's full attack for one more round" thing. Why not just use the mechanic from the d20 "Babylon 5" rpg? The narn have a racial feat called "Blood Frenzy". In basic, it works exactly like the v3.0 barbarian rage, but grants 2 temporary HPs per character level, instead of a con bonus (ok, this is because of the mechanical changes to the d20 system for the rpg). Why not simply port that over to DnD? I mean, at level 20 80 temp HPs are nothing to sneeze at. --- Certainly. You could always make a "Spellbow" prestige class for the caster who want to shoot things. Doesn't it even say so in the PrC's description? That it is possible to use the class with many different weapons? --- No, not metabreath feats, metabreath spells, look in the Dragon Spells section in the Draconomicon. Dispelling Breath, Rebuking Breath, Enervating Breath, all that good stuff. Oh... ok, got me on that. But as always: wouldn't be time stop followed by a horrid wilting and some other goodies not be a better alternative? I mean, it's basically 2*18d6 of energy damage. And against most high level opponents (who have high resistances/immunities to multiple energy types), it wouldn't be that impressive to imflict ~30 points of damage with a level 9 and a level 8 slot. --- Only allow the Augment Arrows option. The base enhancement should only follow the normal progression for the AA. And no special qualities with enhancement costs higher than your natural enhancement (no flaming burst until all your arrows are +2 arrows, for example). Ok, but consider: I was just giving it a wild shot. It would make for an interesting "variant Arcane Archer". Just add +1/2 or +1/3 casterlevel, with some abilities like that, and there you go. Perhaps even change hail of arrows and arrow of death, so that you can expend spellslots for additional targets/reach/save DCs. What do you think? Worth the work of going through the process of writung up the variant? --- As DM, I'd rejoice that this weapon was in the hands of a d8 HD character with Rogue AC, half the stealth/mobility of a rogue or ranger, and a majority of class abilities that are worthless against the wizard's golem, or anything mind blanked. But think of this here: soulknife19/psywar1, wearing mithril heavy plate, with psicrystal containment and the feats Deep Impact and Greater Psionic Weapon. That's the same AC as your typical fighter, with a +4 weapon and the ability to power attack for +14 while making a melee touch attack. With the bastard sword shaped mindblade, the damage could be: 1d10+4psionic+1.5*str+4d6gpw+28pa Add in spring attack, and the ability to get every possible weapon special ability at his finger tips, and you can have a severe problem as a DM. I don't say that it's broken or overpowered, but if you allowed all special abilities to be implanted into the mindblade, it could very well become that. Well, the campaign is undead heavy? Bane(undead) and holy. The BBEG is a tank-like dwarf blackguard? Brilliant Energy. The party is faced with hostile casters? Magebane and dispelling. And so on... The soulknife has some flexibility with its mindblade, and that's ok. But it just shouldn't have total and absolute freedom with it. --- Yeah, it's the Soulknife's thing. It's what they do best. And just as a sorcerer doesn't know (or should know) every spell on his list, the soulknife shouldn't have access to every weapon special ability. --- Lack of options, again. Hmm... I wouldn't call it that... it's just a bit... "wierd". --- Hey, it's a character type. And DMs need their powercreep too. You know how I like "powercreep"? :rolleyes: --- So are the Dervish, Warmind, Illithid Slayer, etc. The illithid slayer is ok, considering the requirements to enter the class at all, but the SRD slayer is definitively on the heavy side. --- I suppose...but the wording would be HELL. The good thing about that idea is that it encourages the character to seek other ways of reducing ACP/raising caster levels, forcing more resources to be expended. Why would it be complex? Simply add Only 2 levels of the ACP hit to CL from wearing armor can be negated by this feat. The other 2 levels this feat can provide can only be used to compensate for multicassing. --- Isn't starting singing a free action? No matter, I found the solution: Nonverbal Spellcasting from the Planar Handbook. HAH! Sigh... remember what I said about cherrypicking? --- I'd rather just make all those bonuses +1 and no more. And holy word/blasphemy/etc. need to be nerfed anyways. If they can use them all in conjunction, but they're all weak, then you'll be seeing characters with max CLs of 25. Which is okay if they're willing to spend the price. That's an alternative solution for the problem. --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 06-06-05, 08:55 PM	AoOs? Did I miss something or does casting defensively with a DC of 15+spelllevel no longer negate any AoOs? I meant any AoOs, including ones from movement. Melee monsters at the high levels have full attacks that are just too much even for most of the pure melee characters as is. Good idea, but I'd be careful, what combinations I'd allow for what class. In my opinion, only the fighter should have access to the most powerful and/or useful combos. Get the prereqs hard enough and only the fighter will be able to enjoy the juiciest ones. Even my Eberron DM said :noway: to the changeling rogue sub level 3. With that, the changeling simply treads too much on the warforged's territory. No other base race has an inbuilt fortification. If your changeling simply must have this ability, he can always go for the Warshaper PrC. But in my opinion, the 50% fortification is way too much. I dunno. I just don't feel it's edging in on the warforged too much. The whole 'body warping' is pure changeling, and what defined the warforged for me the most was the whole "YO! WE'RE CONSTRUCTS!" thing. The 'forged still have better fortification options in feats and PrCs. It's only 50% fortification. A +3 armor bonus! What would you say if I created a racial sub level for a certain race that gives better bonuses with stonecunning and against orcs and giants than the dwarf does, along with other bonuses? I'd ask you to justify it through racial flavor, and I'd ask why the race in question didn't take the Stoneblessed PrC. It's not a fair comparison as, I repeat, the changeling sub level doesn't make the Changeling better at ignoring crits as the Warforged can be. :OMG! No, please spare me that!!! Just think of it: "What? I cannot reach the pinnacle of elven arch magic because I don't have enough ranks in spot? WTF?! :twitch: :uh-huh: :twitch: Or: "What? Just because I don't have that many ranks in climb I cannot be the best tiefling blackguard?" :looloo: :nonono: Hey, who said racial here? I meant prestige substitution levels available to all races. Hell, one idea for 3.5 I toyed with would be removing all prestige classes and turning them into prestige substitution levels. You mean like the monk with his wholeness of body ability? In my opinion, Reserve Points are a good alternative, especially if the party doesn't include a "walking band-aid". Something like that. In the interests of flavor, however, I wanted to give each class a unique option for this. Psychic Warriors get vampiric blade, monks get wholeness of body, paladins get lay on hands, etc. Why not just use the mechanic from the d20 "Babylon 5" rpg? The narn have a racial feat called "Blood Frenzy". In basic, it works exactly like the v3.0 barbarian rage, but grants 2 temporary HPs per character level, instead of a con bonus (ok, this is because of the mechanical changes to the d20 system for the rpg). Why not simply port that over to DnD? I mean, at level 20 80 temp HPs are nothing to sneeze at. Perhaps. I like the idea of Rage feats better though :D I want to give all the classes the thus-far-mostly-Psionic option of expending more resources to pass more difficult challenges. Doesn't it even say so in the PrC's description? That it is possible to use the class with many different weapons? I meant something specific for spellcasting archers. Oh... ok, got me on that. But as always: wouldn't be time stop followed by a horrid wilting and some other goodies not be a better alternative? I mean, it's basically 2*18d6 of energy damage. And against most high level opponents (who have high resistances/immunities to multiple energy types), it wouldn't be that impressive to imflict ~30 points of damage with a level 9 and a level 8 slot. Hey, you don't have to wait for it, so you have more options. As I said before, it's best used inbetween uses of the Dragon Breath spell (hey...can Dragon Breath be empowered? Best use of a 5th level spell slot I can imagine for a sorceror). My personal favorite use is readying such a breath weapon against a spellcasting attempt. Screw counterspells, try a Concentration DC in the triple digits. 36d6 average is 126 damage. Ok, but consider: I was just giving it a wild shot. It would make for an interesting "variant Arcane Archer". Just add +1/2 or +1/3 casterlevel, with some abilities like that, and there you go. Perhaps even change hail of arrows and arrow of death, so that you can expend spellslots for additional targets/reach/save DCs. What do you think? Worth the work of going through the process of writung up the variant? Most definitely. But think of this here: soulknife19/psywar1, wearing mithril heavy plate, with psicrystal containment and the feats Deep Impact and Greater Psionic Weapon. That's the same AC as your typical fighter, with a +4 weapon and the ability to power attack for +14 while making a melee touch attack. With the bastard sword shaped mindblade, the damage could be: 1d10+4psionic+1.5*str+4d6gpw+28pa Add in spring attack, and the ability to get every possible weapon special ability at his finger tips, and you can have a severe problem as a DM. I don't say that it's broken or overpowered, but if you allowed all special abilities to be implanted into the mindblade, it could very well become that. Well, the campaign is undead heavy? Bane(undead) and holy. The BBEG is a tank-like dwarf blackguard? Brilliant Energy. The party is faced with hostile casters? Magebane and dispelling. And so on... The soulknife has some flexibility with its mindblade, and that's ok. But it just shouldn't have total and absolute freedom with it. For one attack per round, and with the tactical considerations of Spring Attack (or maybe just sit there using Psionic Meditation to regain focus) that's fine. And what you're describing later is starting to sound like the kind of tactical options that melee characters need badly. And just as a sorcerer doesn't know (or should know) every spell on his list, the soulknife shouldn't have access to every weapon special ability. OK, OK, give him an "enhancements known" list to choose from. Jeez. Why would it be complex? Simply add I suppose... Sigh... remember what I said about cherrypicking? It's not like Nonverbal Spellcasting is a broken feat - it's a very sensible one, in fact. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 06-07-05, 10:14 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: I meant any AoOs, including ones from movement. Melee monsters at the high levels have full attacks that are just too much even for most of the pure melee characters as is. Ok, now I can see your point. I guess you're right. But perhaps - only perhaps - the Eldritch Knight could survive long enough to get out of there with a quickened dimension door or something similar, and doesn't hit -10hp after the second attack. --- Get the prereqs hard enough and only the fighter will be able to enjoy the juiciest ones. My problem is: no matter how hard you make the prerequisites without totally :censored: the fighter, somebody just will find a way to get the bonus as a barbarian, paladin or ranger because of bonus feats, sub levels, tactical feats, spells, or whatever. And to but it simple: my stomach begins to turn even on the thought of this. If the bonuses are only meant for fighters, why not simply make it [fighter] only? Or design it in a way that a fighter gets 1.5 times the bonus another class would get or something similar. Just an idea... --- I dunno. I just don't feel it's edging in on the warforged too much. The whole 'body warping' is pure changeling, and what defined the warforged for me the most was the whole "YO! WE'RE CONSTRUCTS!" thing. The 'forged still have better fortification options in feats and PrCs. It's only 50% fortification. A +3 armor bonus! And what "better options" would that be? I don't own RoE, so could you please tell me? You mean Juggernaut from the ECS? Sorry, but IMHO this class is crap for a player character. You put on the pressure on the arcane caster to memorize "healing" for the tank, while the wizard doesn't have the option to spontaneously simply swap spells out for some "Repair Light Damage" spells or such. And what I've seen from the feats section in RoE... :bored: :shifty: ... I'm not impressed... :whatsthis: As it stands, the changeling rogue now IS better at ignoring critical hits and sneak attacks. I simply cannot understand why a rogue (even a changeling rogue) should be better in protecting his vital organs than a construct that doesn't have any vitals to begin with. And "only a +3 armor bonus"? While the "YO! WE'RE CONSTRUCTS!" faction only gets a +1 armor bonus for that? Sorry, but that's crappy design from WotC IMHO. --- I'd ask you to justify it through racial flavor, and I'd ask why the race in question didn't take the Stoneblessed PrC. It's not a fair comparison as, I repeat, the changeling sub level doesn't make the Changeling better at ignoring crits as the Warforged can be. And if I didn't justify it with flavor? Or simply ignored the fact that a 5 levels PrC could give you that ability and much better extras than that? You see, if that was a sub level for changeling fighter or such I could understand that. But not for a class that (with the other sub levels) almost exclusively focuses on social stuff. Sorry, that's a big NOOOO!!! from me. It would be the same as half-orc fighter sub levels that grant you better-than-that bardic music abilities. --- Hey, who said racial here? I meant prestige substitution levels available to all races. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were trying to tell me. --- Hell, one idea for 3.5 I toyed with would be removing all prestige classes and turning them into prestige substitution levels. My whole problem with prestige classes and with your prestige sub levels is: the prerequisites are roughly as distant from real gaming as Alpha Centauri is from Sol. I've never ever seen a character that was able to enter a PrC with the feats and skills he already had. The problem is: you either work on the prerequisites right from level 1, or you gain your first PrC level at character level 16. I'd love to see prerequisites similar to "5 ranks in Move Silently OR the feat Stealthy". Just not as static as it stands now. And what I just realized: my last two paladins couldn't even become blackguards if the wanted to, because they didn't have that 5 (mind you: closs-class!) ranks in hide. Good to know, isn't it? :D --- Something like that. In the interests of flavor, however, I wanted to give each class a unique option for this. Psychic Warriors get vampiric blade, monks get wholeness of body, paladins get lay on hands, etc. I understand... but it sounds good. --- Perhaps. I like the idea of Rage feats better though :D I want to give all the classes the thus-far-mostly-Psionic option of expending more resources to pass more difficult challenges. Why not simply make it "new Constitution modifier times 5 temp HPs for as long as he's raging or until they are used up"? --- I meant something specific for spellcasting archers. Ohh... I get it. Shouldn't be that hard to come by? I mean, the Spellsword is pretty much the basic design from which to build this variant, isn't it? --- Hey, you don't have to wait for it, so you have more options. As I said before, it's best used inbetween uses of the Dragon Breath spell (hey...can Dragon Breath be empowered? Best use of a 5th level spell slot I can imagine for a sorceror). My personal favorite use is readying such a breath weapon against a spellcasting attempt. Screw counterspells, try a Concentration DC in the triple digits. 36d6 average is 126 damage. Good tactic, just pray the opponent doesn't have Energy immunity running and your party keeps his friends at bay, otherwise you're standing there for a round and playing sitting duck... err... standing dragon... you know what I mean. --- Most definitely. Hmm... :thinks: perhaps, when I find the time... --- For one attack per round, and with the tactical considerations of Spring Attack (or maybe just sit there using Psionic Meditation to regain focus) that's fine. And what you're describing later is starting to sound like the kind of tactical options that melee characters need badly. But isn't the Soulknife class basically built around 1 hefty SUPA POWAFUL attack per round? I mean: 3/4 attack bonus, psionic feats like deep impact and greater psionic weapon and the psychic strike class ability? Well, all other classes must buy that flexibility with a hefty gold cost, but the soulknife is a bit relieved from that pressure. It can just compensate a bit with its class abilities, but shouldn't have the ultimate flexibility. No class has that, and that's good so. If it wasn't so, you as a DM would have a REALLY hard time surprising your players. --- OK, OK, give him an "enhancements known" list to choose from. Jeez. You mean: just as it is now, but with a little expanded list? ;) --- I suppose... Does that read: "I like your suggestion" or more like: "Naaahhh!"? --- It's not like Nonverbal Spellcasting is a broken feat - it's a very sensible one, in fact. But it seems that WotC just puts out feats that allow each class to overcome every single of their weaknesses with relatively few expended resources. And you know that IMHO, a classes weaknesses shouldn't be easy to overcome - otherwise they wouldn't have been weaknesses at the first place. And it also furthers that "I simply need that feat, otherwise my character is useless"-syndrom some players seem to have constantly. --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 06-08-05, 01:56 PM	Ok, now I can see your point. I guess you're right. But perhaps - only perhaps - the Eldritch Knight could survive long enough to get out of there with a quickened dimension door or something similar, and doesn't hit -10hp after the second attack. All fine and well. My problem is: no matter how hard you make the prerequisites without totally :censored: the fighter, somebody just will find a way to get the bonus as a barbarian, paladin or ranger because of bonus feats, sub levels, tactical feats, spells, or whatever. And to but it simple: my stomach begins to turn even on the thought of this. If the bonuses are only meant for fighters, why not simply make it [fighter] only? Or design it in a way that a fighter gets 1.5 times the bonus another class would get or something similar. Just an idea... I bolded a very interesting idea indeed. "If you have at least 12 levels in fighter, this [tactical] feat also grants the following manuver:"...the possibilities... Ironically, more powerful high level racial sub levels for fighter would help balance it too. And what "better options" would that be? I don't own RoE, so could you please tell me? You mean Juggernaut from the ECS? Sorry, but IMHO this class is crap for a player character. You put on the pressure on the arcane caster to memorize "healing" for the tank, while the wizard doesn't have the option to spontaneously simply swap spells out for some "Repair Light Damage" spells or such.Tank in question only got half efficiency from [healing] spells anyways, and can heal himself with a Craft check. And if the party's got an artificer...not to mention that for charges and bull rushes, the Juggernaut is pretty cool. Best of both worlds: juggernaut5/reforged2. I'm nonmagically immune to all this stuff, but can be healed normally! Bite me, changelings! And what I've seen from the feats section in RoE... :bored: :shifty: ... I'm not impressed... :whatsthis: Hey, Improved Fortification is available for those who don't want to become Juggernauts. As it stands, the changeling rogue now IS better at ignoring critical hits and sneak attacks. I simply cannot understand why a rogue (even a changeling rogue) should be better in protecting his vital organs than a construct that doesn't have any vitals to begin with. Then we disagree. Although you do have a point as to "why for the rogue?". Maybe it should go to the changeling egoist. Hell, that in place of the normal Egoist5 sub level. Getting a few powers that you would have taken anyway is nice, but 50% fortification is something psions wouldn't normally have, and fits the "I control the way my body is put together" idea like a glove. And "only a +3 armor bonus"? While the "YO! WE'RE CONSTRUCTS!" faction only gets a +1 armor bonus for that? Sorry, but that's crappy design from WotC IMHO. +1 bonus for absolutely free, and way more in the way of options to improve this than the changleling. It does not irk me so. And if I didn't justify it with flavor? Or simply ignored the fact that a 5 levels PrC could give you that ability and much better extras than that? But this is justified with flavor. Shapeshifters moving furniture around indoors, so to speak. You see, if that was a sub level for changeling fighter or such I could understand that. But not for a class that (with the other sub levels) almost exclusively focuses on social stuff. Sorry, that's a big NOOOO!!! from me. It would be the same as half-orc fighter sub levels that grant you better-than-that bardic music abilities. "Why the rogue?" is a good argument. Maybe this should be a feat available to all changelings (but some prereqs, first). My whole problem with prestige classes and with your prestige sub levels is: the prerequisites are roughly as distant from real gaming as Alpha Centauri is from Sol. I've never ever seen a character that was able to enter a PrC with the feats and skills he already had. The problem is: you either work on the prerequisites right from level 1, or you gain your first PrC level at character level 16. I'd love to see prerequisites similar to "5 ranks in Move Silently OR the feat Stealthy". Just not as static as it stands now. And what I just realized: my last two paladins couldn't even become blackguards if the wanted to, because they didn't have that 5 (mind you: closs-class!) ranks in hide. Good to know, isn't it? :D Agreed. Have you read the challenge-based prerequisites variant in Unearthed Arcana? Why not simply make it "new Constitution modifier times 5 temp HPs for as long as he's raging or until they are used up"? Maybe. There's a lot that could be done with the barb, we needn't clutter up this thread with that. Ohh... I get it. Shouldn't be that hard to come by? I mean, the Spellsword is pretty much the basic design from which to build this variant, isn't it? Yeah, good place to start. I'd use bits from the AA and the Order of the Bow Initiate too though. Maybe a Havoc Mage-like feature where you can make a single ranged attack and a cast a spell requiring a standard action at the same time as a single full round action. Good tactic, just pray the opponent doesn't have Energy immunity running and your party keeps his friends at bay, otherwise you're standing there for a round and playing sitting duck... err... standing dragon... you know what I mean. No (non-broken) tactic is perfect. But isn't the Soulknife class basically built around 1 hefty SUPA POWAFUL attack per round? I mean: 3/4 attack bonus, psionic feats like deep impact and greater psionic weapon and the psychic strike class ability? SUPA POWAFUL my foot. Try actually calculating the SK's damage output per round. You'll be using Knife to the Soul whenever you can, as Psychic Strike is just too weak. Well, all other classes must buy that flexibility with a hefty gold cost, but the soulknife is a bit relieved from that pressure. It can just compensate a bit with its class abilities, but shouldn't have the ultimate flexibility. No class has that, and that's good so. If it wasn't so, you as a DM would have a REALLY hard time surprising your players. I'd agree with you, and do agree that in theory unlimited flexibility is bad, but this is the soulknife we're talking about. You mean: just as it is now, but with a little expanded list? ;) I mean you choose the list, but that list is limited in size. Does that read: "I like your suggestion" or more like: "Naaahhh!"? I like your suggestion, but I'm still not convinced it's necessary... But it seems that WotC just puts out feats that allow each class to overcome every single of their weaknesses with relatively few expended resources. And you know that IMHO, a classes weaknesses shouldn't be easy to overcome - otherwise they wouldn't have been weaknesses at the first place. And it also furthers that "I simply need that feat, otherwise my character is useless"-syndrome some players seem to have constantly. True, true. (don't think that NSpellcasting is one of those feats though, check it out) Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 06-10-05, 04:52 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: I bolded a very interesting idea indeed. "If you have at least 12 levels in fighter, this [tactical] feat also grants the following manuver:"...the possibilities... Ironically, more powerful high level racial sub levels for fighter would help balance it too. A good idea. So every class that gets the feats for the combo together gets something, but only high level fighters get the whipped cream with a cherry and strawberry sauce on top of it. Hmm.... whipped cream and strawberries :drool: --- Tank in question only got half efficiency from [healing] spells anyways, and can heal himself with a Craft check. And if the party's got an artificer...not to mention that for charges and bull rushes, the Juggernaut is pretty cool. Best of both worlds: juggernaut5/reforged2. I'm nonmagically immune to all this stuff, but can be healed normally! Bite me, changelings! But the wizard cannot simply swap spells out for the repairing, while a cleric can do so for healing. And what is better? Spontaneous healing at 1/2 efficiency or no healing at full efficiency? Additionally, the "repair damage" spells are too focused for a sorcerer that they're worth taking it. What if the warforged dies and the player comes back with a non-warforged character? Then you've just wasted 2, 3 or even more spells on something you'd probably never ever need again in your adventuring carreer. And the reforged, more accurately that :censored: pile of :censored: of a feat called "unarmored body" is the most :censored: :censored: I've seen the last few years! I take off my plating and suddenly I have internal organs, critical blood vessels and a nervous system? :uh-huh:??? :twitch:!!! I can understand that you loose your AC bonus and the accompanying penalties and ASF, but the fortification? Sorry, but: WTF?!?!?! :nonono: :noway: :thumbsdow @WotC. Sometimes I get the impression that the designers just write down things without giving a single thought about them. --- Hey, Improved Fortification is available for those who don't want to become Juggernauts. Is that in RoEberron? Must have missed it. But a changeling rogue with all 3 sub levels has an - IMHO unfair - advantage over the warforged fighter with all 3 sub levels. And this should not be so. --- Then we disagree. Although you do have a point as to "why for the rogue?". Maybe it should go to the changeling egoist. Hell, that in place of the normal Egoist5 sub level. Getting a few powers that you would have taken anyway is nice, but 50% fortification is something psions wouldn't normally have, and fits the "I control the way my body is put together" idea like a glove. Perhaps the egoist fits that role better, but I think that 50% is too much. Warforged don't have any internal organs at all and only get 25% fortification. I could see the point if the egoist got 25% at his 3rd sub level. But as it is written now it gets a big :noway: from me (and my Eberron DM). --- +1 bonus for absolutely free, and way more in the way of options to improve this than the changleling. It does not irk me so. If you like it, that's fine. But me and the group I play Eberron with think it just steps too much on the warforged's toes. --- But this is justified with flavor. Shapeshifters moving furniture around indoors, so to speak. And what about the warshaper PrC? Doesn't that PrC represent the pinnacle of "indoor architecture"? --- "Why the rogue?" is a good argument. Maybe this should be a feat available to all changelings (but some prereqs, first). Hmmm.... and the prerequisites should rather be a bit hefty. Hey, 50% fortification (which you cannot even replicate with the armor enhancements as they are 25%, 75% and 100%) all the times with no chance of taking the bonus away is extremely good. What about: Fortified Bodycontrol Prerequisites: changeling race, base fortitude save +4, great fortitude, diehard Benefit: You gain a 50% fortification. This fortification does not stack with fortification provided by armor (so this bonus and wearing a light fortification armor does not stack to a 75% chance). --- Agreed. Have you read the challenge-based prerequisites variant in Unearthed Arcana? I know these event-based prerequisites, and me and my DM rather like them. But we haven't had the opportunity to test them yet. --- Maybe. There's a lot that could be done with the barb, we needn't clutter up this thread with that. Agreed. It's just.... playing a barbarian doesn't suite me very well... I simply cannot identify with that role. --- Yeah, good place to start. I'd use bits from the AA and the Order of the Bow Initiate too though. Maybe a Havoc Mage-like feature where you can make a single ranged attack and a cast a spell requiring a standard action at the same time as a single full round action. Yes, but just not too much from the Arcane Archer. I'd go with a design almost identical with the spellsword, but give it imbue arrows (an ability the AA already has almost no use for) instead of that spellstoring like ability I fail to recall the name now. --- No (non-broken) tactic is perfect. I hope so. If there was a perfect tactic for every situation, what fun would the game be any longer? --- SUPA POWAFUL my foot. Try actually calculating the SK's damage output per round. You'll be using Knife to the Soul whenever you can, as Psychic Strike is just too weak. I know that Psychic Strike is too weak, with that restriction to only non-mindless living being. An interesting homebrew feat I saw either in the feats forum or psionics forum (can't remember right now) was to make the damage from Psychic Strike psionic damage, so that the soulknife could use it against undead, plants, constructs,... IIRC, the prerequisites were quite step, and the character needed to be a level 12 soulknife, or something in that level range. IMHO, this would not be overpowered, compared to what the combo of the Power Throw feat and the Master Thrower PrC can do in synergy with "Bumerang Stun" or what that feat from RoEberron is called. --- I'd agree with you, and do agree that in theory unlimited flexibility is bad, but this is the soulknife we're talking about. Sorry, but I don't get it. Is the very design of the soulknife class enough to justify perfect flexibility? I don't think so. --- I mean you choose the list, but that list is limited in size. Ahh.... perhaps according to your emotional state, with a varying list of enhancements available (eg like being angry you get vicious and great cleaving to your list, while with a fearful emotion you get defending and parrying)? Is that the idea you had in mind? --- I like your suggestion, but I'm still not convinced it's necessary... Well, in one of your earlier posts you mentioned how gish characters need something to become closer in power to full casters as the current multiclass system is a real pain in the :censored:. Or what if your fighter just wants a few sorcerer/wizard levels for things like true strike or mirror image. If you allowed to full benefit for full casters, you wouldn't change the power gap at all since: "a << b" -> "a+c << b+c" But if you divided the bonus from PSC, then gishes would have a little advantage. So the equation would be "a << b" -> "a+c < b+c-x" Notice the difference between "<<" and "<". The power gap would be closed by a small gap. --- True, true. (don't think that NSpellcasting is one of those feats though, check it out) I guess so, didn't have the opportunity to check it yet, but from how you presented the feat in that previous post... well, it just seemed so... you know what I mean? --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist Being a little tired... only had 5h of sleep today (but my wilder is now level 9 :D). === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 06-16-05, 01:09 PM	Forgive my lateness. Hmm.... whipped cream and strawberries Good metaphor, lol. But the wizard cannot simply swap spells out for the repairing, while a cleric can do so for healing. And what is better? Spontaneous healing at 1/2 efficiency or no healing at full efficiency? Additionally, the "repair damage" spells are too focused for a sorcerer that they're worth taking it. What if the warforged dies and the player comes back with a non-warforged character? Then you've just wasted 2, 3 or even more spells on something you'd probably never ever need again in your adventuring carreer. How about a wand of that stuff that the artificer and UMD rogue or bard can use. No party with a warforged shouldn't have a wand of some repair or another. The warforged, with Craft [repair] has exchanged in-combat healing for, simply put, the best out-of-combat healing in the game. This is all in addition to all the cool tricks an artificer can pull with constructs. They need a Heal equivalent for repair, though. And the reforged, more accurately that :censored: pile of :censored: of a feat called "unarmored body" is the most :censored: :censored: I've seen the last few years! I take off my plating and suddenly I have internal organs, critical blood vessels and a nervous system? Whoa, now you seem to have the idea that just because warforged have a different anatomy they have no internal vulnerabilities. Vital parts, you know? If I go in a car and take out the spark plug or put a hole in the right place, it's shot. Same concept with warforged, because of their organic parts (likely most of it's wood anyway, but I can imagine them having a 'life core' or something) still have areas that are more vulnerable to attack than is normally the case for constructs. Is that in RoEberron? Must have missed it. But a changeling rogue with all 3 sub levels has an - IMHO unfair - advantage over the warforged fighter with all 3 sub levels. And this should not be so. I believe it's in the ECS. The changeling doesn't get this advantage before level 6. It's only a few levels before a Juggernaut or a Warforged spending money on enhancements passes by. Perhaps the egoist fits that role better, but I think that 50% is too much. Warforged don't have any internal organs at all and only get 25% fortification. I could see the point if the egoist got 25% at his 3rd sub level. But as it is written now it gets a big :noway: from me (and my Eberron DM). Naw, 50% at level 5 is fine. In exchange for the normal psion bonus feat. And see above for my view on no internal organs. And what about the warshaper PrC? Doesn't that PrC represent the pinnacle of "indoor architecture"? Yup. Which is why it gets perfect fortification. Hmmm.... and the prerequisites should rather be a bit hefty. Hey, 50% fortification (which you cannot even replicate with the armor enhancements as they are 25%, 75% and 100%) all the times with no chance of taking the bonus away is extremely good. What about: Prereqs sounds good to me. Egoist can take the sub level at 5 and gets that feat in place of the normal psion bonus feat, seems about right. Yes, but just not too much from the Arcane Archer. I'd go with a design almost identical with the spellsword, but give it imbue arrows (an ability the AA already has almost no use for) instead of that spellstoring like ability I fail to recall the name now. Imbue Arrows instead of Channel Spell. Sounds good. SS is an easy PrC to copy. I know that Psychic Strike is too weak, with that restriction to only non-mindless living being. An interesting homebrew feat I saw either in the feats forum or psionics forum (can't remember right now) was to make the damage from Psychic Strike psionic damage, so that the soulknife could use it against undead, plants, constructs,... IIRC, the prerequisites were quite step, and the character needed to be a level 12 soulknife, or something in that level range. IMHO, this would not be overpowered, compared to what the combo of the Power Throw feat and the Master Thrower PrC can do in synergy with "Bumerang Stun" or what that feat from RoEberron is called. Oh, did you see my thread about that on the Character Optimization boards? Stun DCs in the 40s, hitting 4 foes with every thrown attack, it was pretty nasty. AviLazar playtested it, his DM banned it from the game after one session I think. Sorry, but I don't get it. Is the very design of the soulknife class enough to justify perfect flexibility? I don't think so. Nope, but it can certainly justify more flexibility than it has now. Ahh.... perhaps according to your emotional state, with a varying list of enhancements available (eg like being angry you get vicious and great cleaving to your list, while with a fearful emotion you get defending and parrying)? Is that the idea you had in mind? Uh...no. Where you get that complicated idea from? I meant that a soulknife learns enhancements like a psywar learns powers. Say you learn 1 enhancement per level, starting at 4 when your mind blade first gets its enhancement bonus. Switch between enhancements as normal Your total enhancement on your mind blade at any one time cannot exceed half your soulknife level (plus levels in classes that state they are equivalent, like the atavist). You cannot learn an enhancement if it's bonus exceeds your mindblade's normal bonus (until you get to level 8 and a +2 mindblade, no bane enhancement for you, for example). How's that? Well, in one of your earlier posts you mentioned how gish characters need something to become closer in power to full casters as the current multiclass system is a real pain in the :censored:. Or what if your fighter just wants a few sorcerer/wizard levels for things like true strike or mirror image. If you allowed to full benefit for full casters, you wouldn't change the power gap at all since: "a << b" -> "a+c << b+c" But if you divided the bonus from PSC, then gishes would have a little advantage. So the equation would be "a << b" -> "a+c < b+c-x" Notice the difference between "<<" and "<". The power gap would be closed by a small gap. :confused: That's complicated...but you've convinced me. I think. I guess so, didn't have the opportunity to check it yet, but from how you presented the feat in that previous post... well, it just seemed so... you know what I mean? Something tells me I'm not good at ruleslawyerly wording. :weep: Being a little tired... only had 5h of sleep today (but my wilder is now level 9 :D). Good to see you know your priorities.;) Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist.
Ra-Tiel 06-16-05, 06:48 PM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Forgive my lateness. No problem. :) --- Good metaphor, lol. Thanks. I really like strawberries...... :D --- How about a wand of that stuff that the artificer and UMD rogue or bard can use. No party with a warforged shouldn't have a wand of some repair or another. The warforged, with Craft [repair] has exchanged in-combat healing for, simply put, the best out-of-combat healing in the game. This is all in addition to all the cool tricks an artificer can pull with constructs. They need a Heal equivalent for repair, though. Well, to the party in which I played my warforged fighter/paladin (who was 1-shot critted by the minotaur zombie in WotVB), this was a real pain. I had an average craft(armorsmithing) skill for my level (the total skill modifier was at ~+6 or so at level 5 - I only had Int 12), but only on a roll of 10 or higher I did heal one single freaking HP in the same time the other characters healed 5 HPs. Man was I :censored: about that. And by the way: our party consisted of a human rogue, a human wizard, and my warforged. So more often than not I was repairing myself for 1 or 2 HPs per night. And sometimes, my check result was too low to yield any healing at all for my character. --- Whoa, now you seem to have the idea that just because warforged have a different anatomy they have no internal vulnerabilities. Vital parts, you know? If I go in a car and take out the spark plug or put a hole in the right place, it's shot. Same concept with warforged, because of their organic parts (likely most of it's wood anyway, but I can imagine them having a 'life core' or something) still have areas that are more vulnerable to attack than is normally the case for constructs. Well, they are living constructs after all, aren't they? If they didn't possess a striking similarity to real constructs, why would they have the construct [living construct] type? If they had vital organs in the same quantity as humans, dwarves and elves, wouldn't have been aberration or magical beast a better type for them? I simply fail to see the reason why they loose the fortification. So, for warforged the fortification is a function of their armor plates? If that is so, why must my human fighter pay for that stupid armor enhancement? I want my human fighter in breastplate also to have fortification without the magic. Me want me want me want! If fortification is a function of the armor, why doesn't a normal character gain that benefit from mundane armor? What if I rip the armor plating from a dead warforged and craft a suite of armor for me from it? Do I then get 25% fortification? Because the armor is made of warforged plating? Do I? :bigeyes: Seriously, can you see why I think that this feat as written is just crap? It is an interesting option for warforged arcane casters, but nothing more than that. And if in doubt, you could always walk around with Still Spell and non-somatic components spells, saving enough money to get "twilight" added to your mithril plating. Which would bring us back to the topic of ASF for arcane casters... ;) My FR DM told me that if he ever allowed that feat (and the accompanying race) in one of his campaigns, he'd treat the feat as a flaw, thus giving the character a bonus feat if he took the feat as written. My Eberron DM told me that he'd either rule the loss of the fortification out of the feat or treat it as a flaw. :thinks: Striking similarity, isn't it? --- I believe it's in the ECS. The changeling doesn't get this advantage before level 6. It's only a few levels before a Juggernaut or a Warforged spending money on enhancements passes by. But if you take only a changeling rogue with all 3 sub levels and a warforged fighter with all 3 sub levels, both without any feats, equipment or PrCs that grant fortification, the rogue has an unjustified advantage over the fighter. And that shouldn't be so. If the changeling got the same bonus (25%) as the warforged, I'd not complain about it. But with the changeling having the better bonus, despite the very nature of the warforged, to me this is just horribly wrong. It would be similar to creating a dwarven sub level for some class and it gave a better flight ability earlier than what a raptorian got at higher levels. Simply wrong in some way. --- Naw, 50% at level 5 is fine. In exchange for the normal psion bonus feat. And see above for my view on no internal organs. See my post above, also. I simply fail to see the reason why it has to be the rogue. The egoist would fit the theme much better, especially since the changeling rogue IIRC almost exclusively specializes in social abilities. "Oh, of course. I'm the master bluffer, diplomat, seducer, and I can shift around my internal organs as I like just in case someone tries to cut out my lung even if I know a crap about combat and the special abilities and physical secrets of my race." :rolleyes: --- Yup. Which is why it gets perfect fortification. And that's perfectly fine. And AFAIK every changeling is supposed to fullfill that "shapechanger" prerequisite for this PrC. If a character wanted to deep-delve into the shapechanging aspects of his race, he could simply take the 3 levels of that PrC to gain that benefit. But sorry, in addition to what the changeling rogue already gets the 50% fortification just seems too much. --- Prereqs sounds good to me. Egoist can take the sub level at 5 and gets that feat in place of the normal psion bonus feat, seems about right. I agree. That'd be ok. And just give the 3rd changeling rogue sub level a different option but make this feat available as a "special ability, even if the character doesn't meet the prerequisites". That would be almost perfectly ok for me (and I guess my Eberron DM also). --- Imbue Arrows instead of Channel Spell. Sounds good. SS is an easy PrC to copy. Yes, Channel Spell was what I was looking for. Giving Imbue Arrow instead for it seems pretty good, especially since "normal" arcane archers don't have the casterlevel to really benefit from that ability, because of how poorly it is worded. What? Only area effects? WTF? :confused: ... --- Oh, did you see my thread about that on the Character Optimization boards? Stun DCs in the 40s, hitting 4 foes with every thrown attack, it was pretty nasty. AviLazar playtested it, his DM banned it from the game after one session I think. It was you? I didn't remember who posted it, I just knew that it was crazy - but alas - legal according to the RAW. Pretty insane built... but congrats on finding that loophole... now I know yet another thing to warn my fellow friends of. But what do you think about the feat idea I mentioned? A high level feat that changed the nature of Psychic Strike, so that it did psionic damage and would affect undead, plants, mind-blanked targets,...? Too good? Too weak for a feat? Broken? --- Nope, but it can certainly justify more flexibility than it has now. Agreed. Nothing more to add. --- Uh...no. Where you get that complicated idea from? I meant that a soulknife learns enhancements like a psywar learns powers. Say you learn 1 enhancement per level, starting at 4 when your mind blade first gets its enhancement bonus. Switch between enhancements as normal Your total enhancement on your mind blade at any one time cannot exceed half your soulknife level (plus levels in classes that state they are equivalent, like the atavist). You cannot learn an enhancement if it's bonus exceeds your mindblade's normal bonus (until you get to level 8 and a +2 mindblade, no bane enhancement for you, for example). How's that? Well, you said something like "learning the list", so I assumed that the list was fixed but the entries on the list would depend on something. Hmm... nevermind, ok? But your idea is very sound, just a little nitpick: Bane is a +1 enhancement. --- :confused: That's complicated...but you've convinced me. I think. Complicated? Hmm... perhaps I could have formulated it without the CODEs, but I thought that was more clearly. But did you get what I wanted to say? --- Something tells me I'm not good at ruleslawyerly wording. :weep: Aww... come on. It wasn't that bad. It just seemed that to whatever "weakness" or restriction to your tactics I mentioned WotC already had the perfect counterpart. That just ticked me a bit off. Sorry if I came off rude or something. No hard feelings, ok? --- Good to see you know your priorities.;) I know, I know. :D :D :D --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 06-20-05, 09:47 PM	We're running out of stuff to talk about, and most of it's off-topic from the OP... Well, to the party in which I played my warforged fighter/paladin (who was 1-shot critted by the minotaur zombie in WotVB), this was a real pain. I had an average craft(armorsmithing) skill for my level (the total skill modifier was at ~+6 or so at level 5 - I only had Int 12), but only on a roll of 10 or higher I did heal one single freaking HP in the same time the other characters healed 5 HPs. Man was I :censored: about that. And by the way: our party consisted of a human rogue, a human wizard, and my warforged. So more often than not I was repairing myself for 1 or 2 HPs per night. And sometimes, my check result was too low to yield any healing at all for my character. I'll bet you were mad. What was the party doing without scrolls and wands of repair? You didn't max the skill? You're a warforged paladin - you didn't take the sub level for repairs with lay on hands? Forgive my min/max perspective, but I think you were the victim of not enough powergaming. :schemes: Well, they are living constructs after all, aren't they? If they didn't possess a striking similarity to real constructs, why would they have the construct [living construct] type? If they had vital organs in the same quantity as humans, dwarves and elves, wouldn't have been aberration or magical beast a better type for them? I simply fail to see the reason why they loose the fortification. So, for warforged the fortification is a function of their armor plates? If that is so, why must my human fighter pay for that stupid armor enhancement? I want my human fighter in breastplate also to have fortification without the magic. Me want me want me want! If fortification is a function of the armor, why doesn't a normal character gain that benefit from mundane armor? What if I rip the armor plating from a dead warforged and craft a suite of armor for me from it? Do I then get 25% fortification? Because the armor is made of warforged plating? Do I? :bigeyes: Seriously, can you see why I think that this feat as written is just crap? It is an interesting option for warforged arcane casters, but nothing more than that. And if in doubt, you could always walk around with Still Spell and non-somatic components spells, saving enough money to get "twilight" added to your mithril plating. Which would bring us back to the topic of ASF for arcane casters... ;) My FR DM told me that if he ever allowed that feat (and the accompanying race) in one of his campaigns, he'd treat the feat as a flaw, thus giving the character a bonus feat if he took the feat as written. My Eberron DM told me that he'd either rule the loss of the fortification out of the feat or treat it as a flaw. :thinks: Striking similarity, isn't it? Makes perfect sense, and you've certainly convinced me that Unarmored Body shouldn't remove the fortification. There should be a feat that removes fortification - but that's the cost for giving you full healing efficiency. Call it Embrace Healing or sth. But if you take only a changeling rogue with all 3 sub levels and a warforged fighter with all 3 sub levels, both without any feats, equipment or PrCs that grant fortification, the rogue has an unjustified advantage over the fighter. And that shouldn't be so. If the changeling got the same bonus (25%) as the warforged, I'd not complain about it. But with the changeling having the better bonus, despite the very nature of the warforged, to me this is just horribly wrong. It would be similar to creating a dwarven sub level for some class and it gave a better flight ability earlier than what a raptorian got at higher levels. Simply wrong in some way.Well of course if you leave warforged racial feats and equipment out the changeling has an advantage, the warforged's advantage lies in his racial feats and the armor that can't be lost or removed. Frankly, my only problem with this 50% fortification is that it's a class feature on the rogue at level 6 instead of a bonus feat on the egoist at level 5. That's it. And most of that is because I'd rather have a cool, social-focused class feature on the rogue at level 6 instead like the flavor implies. It's just not irking me as much. See my post above, also. I simply fail to see the reason why it has to be the rogue. The egoist would fit the theme much better, especially since the changeling rogue IIRC almost exclusively specializes in social abilities. "Oh, of course. I'm the master bluffer, diplomat, seducer, and I can shift around my internal organs as I like just in case someone tries to cut out my lung even if I know a crap about combat and the special abilities and physical secrets of my race." :rolleyes: Precisely. Although if you call him a master seducer, then internal organ control makes sense for *pre-emptively edited by time traveling WizOs; RadicalTaoist banished to Mature boards for a while*. I agree. That'd be ok. And just give the 3rd changeling rogue sub level a different option but make this feat available as a "special ability, even if the character doesn't meet the prerequisites". That would be almost perfectly ok for me (and I guess my Eberron DM also). Agreed, just wanted to catch a typo - it's the 6th level rogue SL that's irritating you. It was you? I didn't remember who posted it, I just knew that it was crazy - but alas - legal according to the RAW. Pretty insane built... but congrats on finding that loophole... now I know yet another thing to warn my fellow friends of. Well, several builds were kicked around on that thread. The problem with it is was it was one of those perfectly flavored synergies that will go under most DM's radars because it fits a character type like a glove. My Talenta halfling barbarian wants to throw stuff really hard. So he takes Power Throw. And he wants to have all sorts of sick tricks, so he goes into Master Thrower. Makes sense, doesn't it? But what do you think about the feat idea I mentioned? A high level feat that changed the nature of Psychic Strike, so that it did psionic damage and would affect undead, plants, mind-blanked targets,...? Too good? Too weak for a feat? Broken? Make it a different feat for each type of foes in question and it should be fine. Maybe a high level feat to give Soulknives shatter mind blank as a psi-like ability every 1d4 rounds. But your idea is very sound, just a little nitpick: Bane is a +1 enhancement. It is? :doh: But did you get what I wanted to say? Yeah, more or less. Aww... come on. It wasn't that bad. It just seemed that to whatever "weakness" or restriction to your tactics I mentioned WotC already had the perfect counterpart. That just ticked me a bit off. Sorry if I came off rude or something. No hard feelings, ok? lol, it's fine. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 06-21-05, 02:38 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: We're running out of stuff to talk about, and most of it's off-topic from the OP... I know... :( So, what is our conclusion on ASF? That it somewhat makes sense? That it should be streamlined into a more usable form? That there should be some feat or other method of casters being allowed to reduce it somehow, but gishes being able to reduce it a bit further? --- I'll bet you were mad. What was the party doing without scrolls and wands of repair? You didn't max the skill? You're a warforged paladin - you didn't take the sub level for repairs with lay on hands? Forgive my min/max perspective, but I think you were the victim of not enough powergaming. :schemes: We played before RoEberron was out, so no racial sub levels for me. And the problem was: I was a level 4 fighter level 2 paladin with a mighty Cha of 12 :waits:. I didn't plan on becoming a paladin from the start, it just evolved that way ingame. It was extremely cool and stuff, but my iconic paladin abilities really sucked. And the rest of the party, well........ the rogue didn't even have a single rank in UMD (even when the player owned his own PHb) or forgery, and the wizard was - as always - being played as a walking artillery plattform (in my opinion, the player is a victim of the "ars magica-syndrom"). So I had pretty much look out for myself. I didn't have maxed my craft skill because, you know... I wanted to have some other skills as well (a little climb here, a little jump there,...). And the paladin skill points went into sense motive and heal. I know that I could have done better if I had planned it from the beginning and was focusing on that, but it just went this way ingame, and it wouldn't have made much sense to contradict the events that happened ingame with a "munched" selection of skills and feats. --- Just as another example... I have planned the power developement of my FR wilder pretty much in advance. Last session we were attacked by a group of invisible enemies (they were level 7, a cleric, a rogue and a wizard; the wizard finally teleported away with a scroll) and they've killed our NPC cleric (she failed her saves against a hold person and was coup-de-graced in the next round) with which my half-drow had a rather intimate relationship. But the splitted wild surged crystal shard against the rogue who killed my wilder's lover pretty much took care of him (the DM rolled both miss chances open and both shards hit; she took him out with ~70 damage in a single round) Then we finished of the rest, and the enemy wizard fled. We were pretty surprised when our dead cleric came back to life (she had a Death pact running, slightly modified by our DM; that spell was cast on her by her temple in Belprintalar, where we started). But what I really wanted to say: my next power at level 10 is psionic true seeing, and I just appreciated so much the fact that now I have an ingame justification to develope that power (so that never again someone can move around invisible in my proximity and kill my friends). That is so much more fun than "I just have learned that, even when I have absolutely no reason to do so... it's just in case...". --- Makes perfect sense, and you've certainly convinced me that Unarmored Body shouldn't remove the fortification. There should be a feat that removes fortification - but that's the cost for giving you full healing efficiency. Call it Embrace Healing or sth. Ok, but if I give away my fortification, I want something more than simply full healing from spells. Perhaps in addition give "only half effect from repair spells and craft checks, but natural healing" like other characters? I don't think that would be too much. --- Well of course if you leave warforged racial feats and equipment out the changeling has an advantage, the warforged's advantage lies in his racial feats and the armor that can't be lost or removed. Frankly, my only problem with this 50% fortification is that it's a class feature on the rogue at level 6 instead of a bonus feat on the egoist at level 5. That's it. And most of that is because I'd rather have a cool, social-focused class feature on the rogue at level 6 instead like the flavor implies. It's just not irking me as much. It simply stings me that a changeling rogue gets this for free, while a warforged fighter has to takes feats for it, even with both using racial sub levels. But the idea of giving the rogue something else and give this ability (perhaps as the feat I've suggested) to the egoist at 5th (or even 10th) level (it's a very powerful ability after all) instead of the normal bonus feat would be fine with me. --- Precisely. Although if you call him a master seducer, then internal organ control makes sense for *pre-emptively edited by time traveling WizOs; RadicalTaoist banished to Mature boards for a while*. You mean: exactly as much sense it makes that a male changeling can get pregnant if in a female shape by using an effect that is merely a cosmetical change according to the description? There is no :censored: way in all the :censored: 9 :censored: hells (damn, I love that smiley) that a disguise self like effect can do something like that. And it absolutely makes no sense! If I can grow a ******, uterus, and other female organs neccessary for procreation, why the :censored: can't I grow some other useful things, like swim skins between my fingers (bonus to swim checks, perhaps even a swim speed), or that fish-waterbreathing-lungs (sorry, don't know the proper English word right now; to get a waterbreathing effect), suction cups (bonus to climb checks, perhaps even a climb speed), the ears of a bat (blindsense), or the eyes of an orc or hobgoblin (darkvision),...??? :confused: In my opinion Keith Baker has just screwed that up. If at all, this ability should be based on alter self, but in no way there would be a way that an basically "alter self at will" race was LA+0. So they just based it on disguise self, but gave it many effects that are only possible with alter self and just didn't mention it, hoping nobody would notice. Or so it seems. :thumbsdow And please don't get me started on his opinion on clerics. A lawful good deity/church that sponsors a chaotic evil cleric? And the cleric even has the Law and Good domains? WTF??? :rant:!!! --- Agreed, just wanted to catch a typo - it's the 6th level rogue SL that's irritating you. Yes, but it's the 3rd sub level for the changeling rogue. ;) --- Well, several builds were kicked around on that thread. The problem with it is was it was one of those perfectly flavored synergies that will go under most DM's radars because it fits a character type like a glove. My Talenta halfling barbarian wants to throw stuff really hard. So he takes Power Throw. And he wants to have all sorts of sick tricks, so he goes into Master Thrower. Makes sense, doesn't it? Yep. Makes perfect sense. Until the moment you use that combo against the DM's BBEG mastermind and totally waste him! :D And then the DM most likely looses it... --- Make it a different feat for each type of foes in question and it should be fine. Maybe a high level feat to give Soulknives shatter mind blank as a psi-like ability every 1d4 rounds. That'd be nice... perhaps something like Psychic Shatter Prerequisites: Psychic strike +3d8, psionic meditation Benefit: If you expend your focus when you hit an enemy with a charged psychic strike or knife to the soul attack, you can try to remove any mind blank spell or power from him. This works like the power shatter mind blank. The save DC against this effect is equal to 10+1/2 your soulknife level+your charisma modifier. The bonus you have on the manifester check is equal to 1d20+your soulknife level. Special: This effect is resolved before you apply your psychic strike damage. If you fail to remove the mind blank from the target, the target makes its save, or the target is immune to [mind-affecting] effects for other reasons, you have still expended your focus and the extra damage is not applied. I think it is balanced, just because you have to expend your focus for it. Considering that normally a soulknife doesn't have the 3 manifester level neccessary for psicrystal containment - and therefore can only spend 1 focus per round - the character cannot use this ability and any other psionic feat that requires focus (as most psionic feats that are useful for the soulknife do like psionic weapon, or fell shot), this shouldn't be too strong. After all, you can get it only at level 12 or higher, and then your save DC/level check isn't that good. --- It is? :doh: Yes. Yet another reason why I personally find the list from which you can choose the mindblade special abilities in BlainTog's fix FAR over the top. Come on, bane, the alignment specific ones, brilliant energy, and coup de grace? All that [possibly] on a weapon that - effectively - cannot be removed from the character or even sundered for more than 1 round? :noway: That's the kind of flexibility we've talked about earlier, and BlainTog's list is IMHO too much for the soulknife, especially since with his fix you can have a +1 x y z mindblade of u v w. An undestroyable +1 bane[whatever I want after 8h of mediation] [whatever alignment I want to screw today] keen flaming frost shock lucky mindblade? Where to have to put my signature? I have yet to meet the DM that would allow this in his campaign. Thinking about this even more as the Kensai or OA Samurai have to spend XPs/gold to get their special abilities and even then the weapon can get destroyed/stolen/... . --- Yeah, more or less. Ok... sometimes.... I just botch my Int check... --- lol, it's fine. Or my Cha check... --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 06-29-05, 08:52 PM	Gah! I posted a response to this before they did board maintenance and it's GONE!So, what is our conclusion on ASF? That it somewhat makes sense? That it should be streamlined into a more usable form? That there should be some feat or other method of casters being allowed to reduce it somehow, but gishes being able to reduce it a bit further? That it somewhat makes sense but should be streamlined into a more useable form. There are already lots of ways to get around ASF, but they are complicated and use a million splatbooks and most work differently. Streamlining fixes this. Makes the game more elegant. We played before RoEberron was out, so no racial sub levels for me. And the problem was: I was a level 4 fighter level 2 paladin with a mighty Cha of 12 :waits:. I didn't plan on becoming a paladin from the start, it just evolved that way ingame. It was extremely cool and stuff, but my iconic paladin abilities really sucked. Ouch. Yeah, optimizing on a message board ahead of time is a lot harder than optimizing mid-game. And the rest of the party, well........ the rogue didn't even have a single rank in UMD (even when the player owned his own PHb) or forgery, and the wizard was - as always - being played as a walking artillery plattform (in my opinion, the player is a victim of the "ars magica-syndrom"). So I had pretty much look out for myself. I didn't have maxed my craft skill because, you know... I wanted to have some other skills as well (a little climb here, a little jump there,...). And the paladin skill points went into sense motive and heal. I know that I could have done better if I had planned it from the beginning and was focusing on that, but it just went this way ingame, and it wouldn't have made much sense to contradict the events that happened ingame with a "munched" selection of skills and feats. I still say you were a victim of not enough powergaming on the part of your party. But that's all right, a lot of parties are, most of the time it's not a problem, in your case it was. :( And doesn't he know wizards are poor artillery platforms? But the splitted wild surged crystal shard against the rogue who killed my wilder's lover pretty much took care of him (the DM rolled both miss chances open and both shards hit; she took him out with ~70 damage in a single round) Forgive my outburst, but: HAH! OWN'D, SUCKAH! OWN'D!!! Couldn't help myself. I guess you had a similar response? But what I really wanted to say: my next power at level 10 is psionic true seeing, and I just appreciated so much the fact that now I have an ingame justification to develope that power (so that never again someone can move around invisible in my proximity and kill my friends). That is so much more fun than "I just have learned that, even when I have absolutely no reason to do so... it's just in case...". Nice! Ok, but if I give away my fortification, I want something more than simply full healing from spells. Perhaps in addition give "only half effect from repair spells and craft checks, but natural healing" like other characters? I don't think that would be too much. Well, I'd make that a second feat requiring the first as a prerequisite. It simply stings me that a changeling rogue gets this for free, while a warforged fighter has to takes feats for it, even with both using racial sub levels. But the idea of giving the rogue something else and give this ability (perhaps as the feat I've suggested) to the egoist at 5th (or even 10th) level (it's a very powerful ability after all) instead of the normal bonus feat would be fine with me. Well, we sit where we sit then. :censored: :rant: :headexplo I was just trying to make a low-key sexual joke...:mymy: But to clarify, it is an Alter Self. It just is limited to Disguise Self mileage (except when it comes to genitalia). I think that a changeling does grow, say, lizard folk claws and the like - just that it's cosmetic and not strong enough to provide real benefit. And please don't get me started on his opinion on clerics. A lawful good deity/church that sponsors a chaotic evil cleric? And the cleric even has the Law and Good domains? Oh hold on now, that's part of what makes Eberron cool. And if the cleric wants a +1 bonus on caster level to spells he can't cast, and the ability to Holy Word himself into oblivion if he figures out a way to, more power to him. I think it is balanced, just because you have to expend your focus for it. Considering that normally a soulknife doesn't have the 3 manifester level neccessary for psicrystal containment - and therefore can only spend 1 focus per round - the character cannot use this ability and any other psionic feat that requires focus (as most psionic feats that are useful for the soulknife do like psionic weapon, or fell shot), this shouldn't be too strong. After all, you can get it only at level 12 or higher, and then your save DC/level check isn't that good. That's an awesome feat. Suggest it on the Psionics board. Yes. Yet another reason why I personally find the list from which you can choose the mindblade special abilities in BlainTog's fix FAR over the top. Come on, bane, the alignment specific ones, brilliant energy, and coup de grace? All that [possibly] on a weapon that - effectively - cannot be removed from the character or even sundered for more than 1 round? :noway: That's the kind of flexibility we've talked about earlier, and BlainTog's list is IMHO too much for the soulknife, especially since with his fix you can have a +1 x y z mindblade of u v w. An undestroyable +1 bane[whatever I want after 8h of mediation] [whatever alignment I want to screw today] keen flaming frost shock lucky mindblade? Where to have to put my signature? I have yet to meet the DM that would allow this in his campaign. Thinking about this even more as the Kensai or OA Samurai have to spend XPs/gold to get their special abilities and even then the weapon can get destroyed/stolen/... . You're talking to the DM that would right now. In my opinion that's one of the best Soulknife fixes to be found, right next to Szatany's (he calls it the Ultimate Mentalist I believe). He can't have all those enhancements at the same time, mind you. Ok... sometimes.... I just botch my Int check... Or my Cha check... LOL, now you remind me of Order of the Stick. "HEY GUYS! I JUST FAILED MY MOVE SILENTLY CHECK! CAN YOU HEAR ME? I JUST FAILED MY MOVE SILENTLY CHECK!" Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 06-30-05, 07:16 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Gah! I posted a response to this before they did board maintenance and it's GONE! No problem. Don't worry about that... and if you're sad about it... here, take a :cookie: --- That it somewhat makes sense but should be streamlined into a more useable form. There are already lots of ways to get around ASF, but they are complicated and use a million splatbooks and most work differently. Streamlining fixes this. Makes the game more elegant. Wholeheartedly agreed. Just something to add: I think that ASF is insufficiently explained in the PHb what it stands for. Perhaps you do know the rpg "The Black Eye"? In that system, magicians could not cast in armor (and if they wore even the lightest metal armor the difficulty to successfully cast a spell increased by almost 66%) because worked metal disrupted the flow of the magical energies in/on/around them. That means that you could fail to cast a spells because you're hauling around too many coins in your backback. That was just an example of how ASF could be worked into a flavorful element of the campaign setting, and not just be used as a way to [mildly] screw arcane casters. --- Ouch. Yeah, optimizing on a message board ahead of time is a lot harder than optimizing mid-game. :confused: I guess you mean: "Ouch. Yeah, optimizing on a message board ahead of time is a lot easier than optimizing mid-game."? Or you switched "on a message board ahead of time" with "mid-game"? But I know what you mean. I think this is a bad side effect of the "LEGO-Syndrom" as I prefer to call it. In v3.x characters look like LEGO buildings. A stone of color x here, another stone of color y there. Until you've applied every stone (read: 20 levels) you can hardly see what you're getting. A character that has started being played at a certain level will always look different from a character has has been played to that level right from the start. I really miss things like the BG2 kits. :weep: To make a long story short: That's why I'm so :inlove: with the EverQuestII d20 rpg. You start with 4 archetypes (fighter, scout, priest, mage; each has 10 levels) and as you increase in levels you can select/buy different talents that represent "class abilities" like sneak attack, increased unarmed damage, flurry, and such. After some levels you can (but in no way need to or have to) enter one class. These classes represent rather specialized archertypes ("brawler" for unarmed fighting, "predator" for tracking/hunting, and so on; each has 5 levels). Also, each class has again its own list of talents you can choose from or buy, so you can further customize your character. After that you can (if you qualifiy for it) enter a so called advanced class. These classes are the real specialists ("assassin" for.. well.. assassinations, "monk" for mastery of unarmed combat, "swashbuckler" for stylish light armored mobile fighting, and so on; each has 15 levels). Again, each class grants a specific list of talents that you can choose to round out or even further customize/specialize your character. The point is: you don't need prestige classes at all. For example from the fighter archetype you could develope the typical "tank": think skin, thicker armor, even thicker damage reduction. Or a light armored, highly mobile, rapier using swashbuckler type. Or a leadership focused "general" type that inspires his allies and protects them with his own life. Each by selecting the appropriate talents and buying the suitable feats. All that (almost) right from the start, and most importantly: without having to pick x feats from x different splat books while dipping into y PrCs from y other books. :ayyyy!: The disadvantage is: the Player's Guide only contains the non-magical classes and advanced classes. The magic-using ones are detailed in the Spell Guide, but that book has been delayed now for almost 3 months beyond schedule, and as it seems it won't be out till October. That's really sad, and many people are already retreating from the setting. The reasons for this are unknown, and from SSS no official statement has been made yet. :weep: :allalone: --- I still say you were a victim of not enough powergaming on the part of your party. But that's all right, a lot of parties are, most of the time it's not a problem, in your case it was. :( And doesn't he know wizards are poor artillery platforms? As I've said: victim of the "Ars Magica"-Syndrom. In that system mages are just K.E.W.L. and U.B.E.R. and the most 1.3.3.7. characters E.V.A.R. that can accomplish anything and more. And obviously the player tried to apply the same to DnD. We've also played the adventure from Hyperconscious and :rimshot: the wizard being played by the same player. In the fight with the fire giant we had to almost hit him with the PHb that he gave a stoneskin to the dwarven fighter and used slow on the opponent and haste on us instead of trying to kill the giant all alone with his spells. --- Forgive my outburst, but: HAH! OWN'D, SUCKAH! OWN'D!!! Couldn't help myself. I guess you had a similar response? Almost correct: my reaction was more like "YES! DIE SUCKER!! SON OF A *****!!! sssssttttrrrrIIIKKKEEE!!!!" I really needed that element of success! --- Nice! Actually, I've changed my selection to touchsight instead of psionic true seeing. My character's theme is crystals: My powers as planned are now: Level Power 1 Vigor 2 Crystal Shard 4 Swarm of Crystals 6 Body Adjustment 8 Energy Adaption 10 Touchsight 12 Psionic Disintegrate 14 Personal Mind Blank 16 Crystal Body 18 Psionic Greater Teleport 20 Timeless Body I try to explain every power with my character's connection to crystals. Vigor: My body harders and just under the skin developes a thin layer of crystalline webbing. Crystal Shard and Swarm of Crystals: obvious. Body Adjustment: My body slowly regenerates itself, just as damaged crystals can regrow lost or destroyed parts with time, but this one augmented and accelerated by psionics. Energy Adaption: I change my body's structure slightly, making it resistant to non-physical forms of attacks, similar in the same way as some crystalline structures are almost invulnerable to fire, others to acid, and again others to cold. Touchsight: I attune my metaphysical self to the subtle psionic disturbances and vibrations everything creates in my own mental weave around me (we're playing in Faerun, and my DM took the explanation from tPGtF that each manifester creates sort of his own weave around him). Psionic Disintegrate: I shoot a thin ray of crystals at my target and if I hit, change the target itself into crystal that almost immediately dusts into nothingness. Personal Mind Blank: Have you ever seen a block of quarz or so getting charmed? Also, quite obvious as I adjust my mind to the mind set of a crystal, creating a cold and rational shield over my untamable emotions and thoughts. Crystal Body: A slight variation of oak body. Just changed it the following ways: the DR to 10/bludgeoning, half damage from electricity, vulnerability to sonic, natural weapons as short swords for my size. Psionic Greater Teleport: My mind transmutes myself and everything I want to take along into fine crystalline dust that travels through the astral plane to my intended destination and then reassembles itself into the various creatures and objects. Timeless Body: I hide my body under a layer of indestructable and unbreachable crystal, just like a second skin protecting my being. My feats are planned as: Level Feat 1 Psicrystal Affinity 3 Extend Power 6 Split Psionic Ray 9 Maximize Power 12 Expanded Knowledge (Hail of Crystals) 15 Expanded Knowledge (Crystallize) 18 Psicrystal Containment --- Well, I'd make that a second feat requiring the first as a prerequisite. Perhaps that'd do the trick for me. But only perhaps. ;) --- Well, we sit where we sit then. And that's not that bad, is it? How boring would the world be if we agreed on each and every topic? Especially this thread would have been over since post #2 with me saying: "Agreed." --- I was just trying to make a low-key sexual joke...:mymy: But to clarify, it is an Alter Self. It just is limited to Disguise Self mileage (except when it comes to genitalia). I think that a changeling does grow, say, lizard folk claws and the like - just that it's cosmetic and not strong enough to provide real benefit. I'm just a bit sensitive to changelings, as you might have guessed already. Mechanically they are SO poorly designed, with SO huge illogical bits. ARGH!!! --- Oh hold on now, that's part of what makes Eberron cool. And if the cleric wants a +1 bonus on caster level to spells he can't cast, and the ability to Holy Word himself into oblivion if he figures out a way to, more power to him. The problem is: IIRC, Mr. Baker has declared that the cleric is able to cast every single spell he has on that domain lists. That reads: a CE cleric possibly can cast a spell with the [good] descriptor a TN cleric cannot cast. And that is just and simple stupid. Why in all the nine hells should a CE cleric follow a LG - or rather: any good aligned - deity/church if the principles for what that organization stands completely opposes his view of the world? In my opinion you can't be evil without doing evil, just as you can't be good without doing good. It would be the same thing as Gandalf saying: "AH! F*** you all, Saruman is sooooo Kewl with his uruk army and has much better siege engines and stuff! I also like his tower much more than this stupid white city here. I'm off to join him! Byebye you loosers!!" Somehow I have the impression that Keith wants to differ Eberron from other settings at all costs, consequences be damned. Even if he - as it seems - doesn't fully understand the principles of alignment and alignment specific domains. --- That's an awesome feat. Suggest it on the Psionics board. Done! :D --- You're talking to the DM that would right now. In my opinion that's one of the best Soulknife fixes to be found, right next to Szatany's (he calls it the Ultimate Mentalist I believe). He can't have all those enhancements at the same time, mind you. Really? But you would allow me to run around with an indestructable +1 bane[whatever I want] alignment[whatever I want] psychokinetic collision wounding mind blade? That's cool! --- LOL, now you remind me of Order of the Stick. "HEY GUYS! I JUST FAILED MY MOVE SILENTLY CHECK! CAN YOU HEAR ME? I JUST FAILED MY MOVE SILENTLY CHECK!" "I think I've just failed a listen check!" ;) --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 07-18-05, 03:44 PM	Sorry for forgetting this thread for so long! Just something to add: I think that ASF is insufficiently explained in the PHb what it stands for. Perhaps you do know the rpg "The Black Eye"? In that system, magicians could not cast in armor (and if they wore even the lightest metal armor the difficulty to successfully cast a spell increased by almost 66%) because worked metal disrupted the flow of the magical energies in/on/around them. That means that you could fail to cast a spells because you're hauling around too many coins in your backback. That was just an example of how ASF could be worked into a flavorful element of the campaign setting, and not just be used as a way to [mildly] screw arcane casters. Hmmm. Since it's not related to the movements, that would be tricky putting into D&D (it would also presumably mean no penalties for nonmetal armor - hellooooo dragonhide!). But yeah, that's a very good example. What other flavorful explanations could there be? *thinks* :confused: I guess you mean: "Ouch. Yeah, optimizing on a message board ahead of time is a lot easier than optimizing mid-game."? Or you switched "on a message board ahead of time" with "mid-game"? But I know what you mean. I think this is a bad side effect of the "LEGO-Syndrom" as I prefer to call it. In v3.x characters look like LEGO buildings. A stone of color x here, another stone of color y there. Until you've applied every stone (read: 20 levels) you can hardly see what you're getting. A character that has started being played at a certain level will always look different from a character has has been played to that level right from the start. Whoops, typo! Yeah you read me right. That's a good way of putting it. As a matter of fact, you've a knack for naming good 'syndromes', lol. Ars Magica-syndrome and so on. I really miss things like the BG2 kits. :weep: To make a long story short: That's why I'm so :inlove: with the EverQuestII d20 rpg. You start with 4 archetypes (fighter, scout, priest, mage; each has 10 levels) and as you increase in levels you can select/buy different talents that represent "class abilities" like sneak attack, increased unarmed damage, flurry, and such. After some levels you can (but in no way need to or have to) enter one class. These classes represent rather specialized archertypes ("brawler" for unarmed fighting, "predator" for tracking/hunting, and so on; each has 5 levels). Also, each class has again its own list of talents you can choose from or buy, so you can further customize your character. After that you can (if you qualifiy for it) enter a so called advanced class. These classes are the real specialists ("assassin" for.. well.. assassinations, "monk" for mastery of unarmed combat, "swashbuckler" for stylish light armored mobile fighting, and so on; each has 15 levels). Again, each class grants a specific list of talents that you can choose to round out or even further customize/specialize your character. The point is: you don't need prestige classes at all. For example from the fighter archetype you could develope the typical "tank": think skin, thicker armor, even thicker damage reduction. Or a light armored, highly mobile, rapier using swashbuckler type. Or a leadership focused "general" type that inspires his allies and protects them with his own life. Each by selecting the appropriate talents and buying the suitable feats. All that (almost) right from the start, and most importantly: without having to pick x feats from x different splat books while dipping into y PrCs from y other books. :ayyyy!: The disadvantage is: the Player's Guide only contains the non-magical classes and advanced classes. The magic-using ones are detailed in the Spell Guide, but that book has been delayed now for almost 3 months beyond schedule, and as it seems it won't be out till October. That's really sad, and many people are already retreating from the setting. The reasons for this are unknown, and from SSS no official statement has been made yet. :weep: :allalone: Sorry to hear about the delay. Actually, what they're doing is examining the effects PrCs (which is what these 'advanced' classes and such effectively are) have on character design and planning accordingly. You could say that they're learning from the LEGO-syndrome mistakes in game design that WotC made as it put out PrCs by the bucketful. Sounds like a very cool idea. I had a similar idea involving certain classes (some I would turn into feat chains, and others I would turn into pairs of 15-level prestige classes and 5-level 'initiate' classes. This would be to represent people who had been training since childhood to be monks or paladins or druids or whatever. So instead of being a Paladin20, say, you'd have to be a Squire5/Paladin15. The requirements of the prestige classes (in this case, Paladin) should be so that you can only enter as quickly as possible through the 5 level limited class that matches that PrC. As such, to explore other options of entering that class will take longer and thus characters who weren't early paladins will have to wait till later in the career to qualify. This fixes multiclassing nonsense like 'after a few weeks of adventuring, my sorceror is a full fledged Templar of Pelor!' :uh-huh:) As I've said: victim of the "Ars Magica"-Syndrom. In that system mages are just K.E.W.L. and U.B.E.R. and the most 1.3.3.7. characters E.V.A.R. that can accomplish anything and more. And obviously the player tried to apply the same to DnD. We've also played the adventure from Hyperconscious and :rimshot: the wizard being played by the same player. In the fight with the fire giant we had to almost hit him with the PHb that he gave a stoneskin to the dwarven fighter and used slow on the opponent and haste on us instead of trying to kill the giant all alone with his spells. This guy's gonna get you TPKed in the later levels. Almost correct: my reaction was more like "YES! DIE SUCKER!! SON OF A *****!!! sssssttttrrrrIIIKKKEEE!!!!" I really needed that element of success! lol, bowling for rogues. Actually, I've changed my selection to touchsight instead of psionic true seeing. My character's theme is crystals: Have you considered True Metabolism? That seems to fit the crystals growing back theme. And that's not that bad, is it? How boring would the world be if we agreed on each and every topic? Especially this thread would have been over since post #2 with me saying: "Agreed." Of course. Now this thread has run out a useful life. I'm just a bit sensitive to changelings, as you might have guessed already. Mechanically they are SO poorly designed, with SO huge illogical bits. ARGH!!! --- The problem is: IIRC, Mr. Baker has declared that the cleric is able to cast every single spell he has on that domain lists. That reads: a CE cleric possibly can cast a spell with the [good] descriptor a TN cleric cannot cast. And that is just and simple stupid. Why in all the nine hells should a CE cleric follow a LG - or rather: any good aligned - deity/church if the principles for what that organization stands completely opposes his view of the world? In my opinion you can't be evil without doing evil, just as you can't be good without doing good. It would be the same thing as Gandalf saying: "AH! F*** you all, Saruman is sooooo Kewl with his uruk army and has much better siege engines and stuff! I also like his tower much more than this stupid white city here. I'm off to join him! Byebye you loosers!!" Somehow I have the impression that Keith wants to differ Eberron from other settings at all costs, consequences be damned. Even if he - as it seems - doesn't fully understand the principles of alignment and alignment specific domains. I have a lot to respond to with this. But I remember: last time we were this off topic, we made a whole new thread. Really? But you would allow me to run around with an indestructable +1 bane[whatever I want] alignment[whatever I want] psychokinetic collision wounding mind blade? That's cool! Sure you can have that leet weapon. Just like the Wilder can have his sick MLs, and the Rogue his awesome skills, and the Barbarian his ability to turn into a roaring critical injury dispenser. It's your thing. The weapon is your class. By extension, if that's what you invest in, an uber weapon is your reward. You're giving up full BAB progression for it, y'know. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 07-19-05, 07:17 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Sorry for forgetting this thread for so long! No problem. --- Hmmm. Since it's not related to the movements, that would be tricky putting into D&D (it would also presumably mean no penalties for nonmetal armor - hellooooo dragonhide!). But yeah, that's a very good example. What other flavorful explanations could there be? *thinks* Hmm... what about this: To cast your spell you must weave the Magical Weave into the form you desire it to have to make the effect of your spell happen. This is normally done with the usual procedure of casting a spell. But the Weave is a delicate thing, and the slightest disturbances can render your efforts null and void. The Weave reacts extremely towards worked materials, like wood, leather and especially metal. Whenever you cast a spell while wearing armor, there is a chance that one of the Weave's strands accidentally connects to your armor and disrupts the Weaving of your spell, causing it to go to waste. This is represented by the spell failure ratings of the different armors. Note that normal clothing is still natural and "innocent" enough to not disrupt the Magical Weave, even if one of its strands should connect to it. or Whenever you cast a spell, you send a prayer to the Gods of Magic (GoM), praying to her for allowing you to work the fabric of reality to your wishes. But the Gods of Magic are a strict bureaucracy of divine beings, each dedicated to one of the schools known to mortal men. They have a very strict code that they require each wizard to follow. Failure in this code takes the form of the GoM rejecting the caster's plea for access to the fabric of the worlds and his spell failing. As it is prohibited by the Arcane Code for casters to wear armor (as armor focuses too much on the things mundane, instead of things transcendent and arcane), each armor has a spell failure rating that represents the chance of the responsible GoM to be offended by a caster wearing it. Just some quick ideas. --- Whoops, typo! Yeah you read me right. That's a good way of putting it. As a matter of fact, you've a knack for naming good 'syndromes', lol. Ars Magica-syndrome and so on. No problem... I also sometimes confuse that what I think with that what I write. And how can I know what I think, bevor I can see what I write? ;) --- Sorry to hear about the delay. Actually, what they're doing is examining the effects PrCs (which is what these 'advanced' classes and such effectively are) have on character design and planning accordingly. You could say that they're learning from the LEGO-syndrome mistakes in game design that WotC made as it put out PrCs by the bucketful. Sounds like a very cool idea. The system of the EQ2 rpg is extremely cool! It really negates the need for prestige classes. The most closest thing for DnD would be "Crave's Uber Gestalt" character system. I really like his idea, as it is very balanced and checked. Alas, I cannot find it right now as it is off the list in the Unearthed Arcana and House Rules forum. :weep: Perhaps you can PM him so that you can also take a look at it. --- I had a similar idea involving certain classes (some I would turn into feat chains, and others I would turn into pairs of 15-level prestige classes and 5-level 'initiate' classes. This would be to represent people who had been training since childhood to be monks or paladins or druids or whatever. So instead of being a Paladin20, say, you'd have to be a Squire5/Paladin15. The requirements of the prestige classes (in this case, Paladin) should be so that you can only enter as quickly as possible through the 5 level limited class that matches that PrC. I know that you don't want to 1-to-1 copy the EQ2 system, but there it's 10/5/15 (archetype/class/advanced class). You can enter a class with as much as 5 archetype levels and to enter any advanced class, you need the corresponding class at level 5. So your first "advanced" class level could be character level 11 (archetype 5, class 5). Just as a note: once you have one level in any class, you cannot gain levels in any other class even if you met the prerequisites. But I like your idea really very much! Perhaps you could go with something like the following, making all of the 11 PHb classes into "advanced classes" and add some fitting basic classes: Basic Class Available Advanced Classes Apprentice Sorcerer, Wizard Acolyte Cleric, Druid Squire Fighter, Paladin Student Bard, Rogue, Monk Wanderer Barbarian, Ranger --- As such, to explore other options of entering that class will take longer and thus characters who weren't early paladins will have to wait till later in the career to qualify. This fixes multiclassing nonsense like 'after a few weeks of adventuring, my sorceror is a full fledged Templar of Pelor!' :uh-huh: ) I know exactly what you mean: TOotS (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=126) :D It exactly describes what you are meaning. --- This guy's gonna get you TPKed in the later levels. <<<Campaing Update Campaign Update Campaign Update>>> In our last session, Belprintalar was under attack by the Red Wizards and their vile servents. Our scout was killed by DM fiat (as the player approached the DM 10min bevor we wanted to play that he wanted a new character, and with his character creation delayed our game by over 2 hours; as a note: we wanted to start at 18:00, as I and the I-want-a-new-character player had to leave at latest at 23:00... but in the end we started at something like 20:15). The attacker was an improved invisible Red Wizard on his griffon mount. Surprise Round: The Red Wizard opened up with the classic: fireball on me and our wizard (we both got away relatively unhurt, thanks to false life and vigor/energy adaption).The new character (druid 1, sorcerer 7... don't ask me about that class distribution... *shrug*) was the lucky one who got voluntarily into melee with the griffon (just don't ask me why). Round 1: The Red Wizard lets his mount shred at the sorcerer while he casts the other classic: solid fog at my wilder and our wizard. As I don't have any means of dispelling anything, I trusted the party wizard to get us out of that freaking fog. But he casts see invisibility to be able to target the wizard with his spells. Round 2: Finally, our wizard dispels the fog in this round. But guess what? Before I could act because I went after both arcane casters, (as the group rolls initative every round which I find extremely stupid ) the Red Wizard casts black tentacles at us, while his mount claws at the sorcerer (who still didn't try to get away from the griffon...). Of course I failed the grapple check and was held by the tentacles. Round 3: With a +6 Fort save mod I didn't make the save vs the cloudkill that followed in this round very often. Our wizard luckily got away from the tentacles in that round (and as the cloudkill slowly moves away from its caster he only had to make one save, while my poor wilder was on the other end of the cloud... :weep: ) and takes a move action towards the Red Wizard. The sorcerer is still in melee with the griffon, blasting at it with highly effective 7d6 lightning bolts :rolleyes:. Round 4: Instead of dispelling that :censored: spells that are laying the hurt on my (at this time I already had taken 4 points of con damage from the 14 total I have in this attribute so far), he casts feeblemind on the Reddie. Of course, the Red Wizard makes his save. I take another 2 points of con damage. Round 5: Again, our wizard casts feeblemind, but this time the Red Wizard blows his save with a nat1, becoming intelectual vegetable. The sorcerer then blasts the griffon into grilled beef. I take yet another 3 points of con damage. Round 6: I take another point of con damage, being dropped down to a con of 4. Finally, our wizard in his incredible generocity uses dispel magic to free me from the cloud as well as the tentacles. I have a HP max of 16 and the grapple damage from the tentacles did a total of 68 points of damage over all the rounds to me, having totally eaten away my vigor. I have only 8 HPs left. I'm vomitting parts of my lung and cursing the wizard for being such a :censored:... You know, if he had used glitterdust to make the Red Wizard visible for all of us, and not just for him only, and freed me from the tentacles in the 4th round the battle would have been over in the 5th round as I would have moved up to the Reddie and crystal sharded him into oblivion. But so my character almost had died (again from a cloudkill) just so that our wizard can himself take on the enemy. Man am I ******! I am so ******** with him... the next time I'm going to address my powerstone, borrow timehop from it and then manifest it with wild surge and extended and leave them alone for ~20 rounds so that they can see how it is to be left off to die. GRRRRrrrr!!! But the best thing was: our wizard didn't have a single spell prepared that allowed him to get free of a grapple. No dimension door, no stilled hold person or stilled dispel magic. Nothing. Not at all. And the player of the sorcerer... *shrug* I'm not that big into druids, but after taking a short look at the class and its spells it was clear that had he been a level 8 druid, he could have wasted the Red Wizard all alone. And I make a prediction that I'm sure I will be right with: it at most 4 levels the player is fed up with his most inefficient (as he didn't even bother to read the sorcerer spells he took just "from a feeling") character and again wants a new character. One thing I know for sure: It is really sad as I like my wilder character very much, but when she dies I'll get a new character. I have three character ideas racing through my mind right now, thou I prefer #1 or #2: A male cleric of Jergal, with a good old adamantine Fullplate and a big badass scythe. A male druid. Enough said. "Greenbound Summoning" + "Augmented Summoning" + "Natural Spell" = dead enemies in round 2. A female bard/cleric/hearthwarden. Hold and Charm spells are your friends. :plotting: --- lol, bowling for rogues. :w00t: --- Have you considered True Metabolism? That seems to fit the crystals growing back theme. Hmm... interesting idea... but it's so difficult to decide which other power to throw out. Perhaps true metabolism instead of the crystal-themed oak body? So difficult a choice it is... --- Of course. Now this thread has run out a useful life. Agreed. It was a very pleasant discussion and a real pleasure having it with you. :) --- I have a lot to respond to with this. But I remember: last time we were this off topic, we made a whole new thread. Anything against it? If you want to engage in such a discussion, go ahead! :) --- Sure you can have that leet weapon. Just like the Wilder can have his sick MLs, and the Rogue his awesome skills, and the Barbarian his ability to turn into a roaring critical injury dispenser. It's your thing. The weapon is your class. By extension, if that's what you invest in, an uber weapon is your reward. You're giving up full BAB progression for it, y'know. Hmm... haven't seen it in this light. Perhaps you're right and the flexibility of the soulknife having more options for his mindblade wouldn't hurt too much. But IMHO at least the alignment specific ones and the elemental ones should be out. There are no powers that deal with alignments, so why should the soulknife. And I simply cannot see a soulknife suddenly manifesting a "frost" mindblade, sorry. It really doesn't fit the theme for my taste. --- Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 08-06-05, 09:18 PM	Just some quick ideas. Not bad. How about: Scorn Mundane Protection The belief system and mindset of any arcane spellcaster is, in a large part, responsible for their ability to see beyond the restrictions imposed on lesser beings. An important part of this is self confidence - to wield power matching the gods, you must first believe that you can. As a result, any kind of material protection such as shields or armor has a negative effect upon a wizard or sorceror's casting ability - to admit that he requires this is a subconscious admission on the mage's part that magic is not enough, that protection is beyond their eldritch grasp. Protection of similar sorts that comes from magical creation - such as a mage armor spell or bracers of armor - naturally does not create such a penalty. Likewise, natural armor that is a part of the mage's body does not have sufficient effect on a mage's paradigm of confidence in magic to cause such a penalty. No problem... I also sometimes confuse that what I think with that what I write. And how can I know what I think, bevor I can see what I write? ;) I'm sure that makes sense. :):twitch:...somehow... The system of the EQ2 rpg is extremely cool! It really negates the need for prestige classes. The most closest thing for DnD would be "Crave's Uber Gestalt" character system. I really like his idea, as it is very balanced and checked. Alas, I cannot find it right now as it is off the list in the Unearthed Arcana and House Rules forum. :weep: Perhaps you can PM him so that you can also take a look at it. Another thing on the forums to look into. I know that you don't want to 1-to-1 copy the EQ2 system, but there it's 10/5/15 (archetype/class/advanced class). You can enter a class with as much as 5 archetype levels and to enter any advanced class, you need the corresponding class at level 5. So your first "advanced" class level could be character level 11 (archetype 5, class 5). Just as a note: once you have one level in any class, you cannot gain levels in any other class even if you met the prerequisites. Hmm...can you take levels in other archetypes? or advanced classes? But I like your idea really very much! Perhaps you could go with something like the following, making all of the 11 PHb classes into "advanced classes" and add some fitting basic classes: Whoah, not that far. What I want the basic class to do is represent special training from a young age. Which is why you must take your 1st level of any basic class at character level 1, or not at all. It also makes the class applicable only to classes like Paladin and Monk, and not to more general class types like Fighter and Rogue, or classes based on inborn ability like the Sorceror. Frankly, Paladin, Monk, Druid, and Wizard are the only classes I feel need the basic class/prestige class division (in fact, I'd like Druid and Wizard to share a basic class). The other classes I don't feel need any early training, or only have early training as optional (like the cleric, I can see a character with mechanics reflecting being trained in the faith since birth, but that would be better represented with a feat taking only at 1st level). <<<Campaing Update Campaign Update Campaign Update>>> In our last session, Belprintalar was under attack by the Red Wizards and their vile servents. Our scout was killed by DM fiat (as the player approached the DM 10min bevor we wanted to play that he wanted a new character, and with his character creation delayed our game by over 2 hours; as a note: we wanted to start at 18:00, as I and the I-want-a-new-character player had to leave at latest at 23:00... but in the end we started at something like 20:15). The attacker was an improved invisible Red Wizard on his griffon mount. You know, if he had used glitterdust to make the Red Wizard visible for all of us, and not just for him only, and freed me from the tentacles in the 4th round the battle would have been over in the 5th round as I would have moved up to the Reddie and crystal sharded him into oblivion. But so my character almost had died (again from a cloudkill) just so that our wizard can himself take on the enemy. Man am I ******! I am so ******** with him... the next time I'm going to address my powerstone, borrow timehop from it and then manifest it with wild surge and extended and leave them alone for ~20 rounds so that they can see how it is to be left off to die. GRRRRrrrr!!! But the best thing was: our wizard didn't have a single spell prepared that allowed him to get free of a grapple. No dimension door, no stilled hold person or stilled dispel magic. Nothing. Not at all. And the player of the sorcerer... *shrug* I'm not that big into druids, but after taking a short look at the class and its spells it was clear that had he been a level 8 druid, he could have wasted the Red Wizard all alone. And I make a prediction that I'm sure I will be right with: it at most 4 levels the player is fed up with his most inefficient (as he didn't even bother to read the sorcerer spells he took just "from a feeling") character and again wants a new character. One thing I know for sure: It is really sad as I like my wilder character very much, but when she dies I'll get a new character. I have three character ideas racing through my mind right now, thou I prefer #1 or #2: A male cleric of Jergal, with a good old adamantine Fullplate and a big badass scythe. A male druid. Enough said. "Greenbound Summoning" + "Augmented Summoning" + "Natural Spell" = dead enemies in round 2. A female bard/cleric/hearthwarden. Hold and Charm spells are your friends. :plotting: Moron. What's your alignment, CN? Pull of that Time Hop thing as soon as you're sure you can get away with it. Then start a thread on the CO boards asking "My party wizard is a moron - how do I keep my wilder from dying because he's not doing his job?" We can get self-sufficiency. Or ask how to optimize a battle cleric :schemes: or a druid :evillaugh:. I recommend half-orc as a druid race - they've got a racial sub level that gives a benefit that's better than the Augmented Summoning feat, and doesn't require the deadweight feat Spell Focus: Conjuration (the feat and the sub level don't stack, though). Hmm... interesting idea... but it's so difficult to decide which other power to throw out. Perhaps true metabolism instead of the crystal-themed oak body? So difficult a choice it is... It depends on your DM. Do you have the chance to prepare your defenses ahead of time? Then the crystal body thing is better. Does your DM give you the time in rounds for fast healing to actually save your neck? In that case True Metabolism is quite pleasant, especially extended. Gotta love Wilder MLs. Agreed. It was a very pleasant discussion and a real pleasure having it with you. :) Likewise. :tiphat: Anything against it? If you want to engage in such a discussion, go ahead! :) A few complicating factors. Since my summer job kicked up, I don't have the chance to check up on the boards like I used to, as you may have noticed. :weep: My posting is sporadic. The bigger thing is, which forum to put it on? If we start a thread with some of your comments on the Eberron Races forum, for example, the WizOs may think "Ah, another Eberron-bashing troll." *click* And I need to clean out my PM box big time. I'm in two RealAdventures games right now and have a lot of party members to communique with. Hmm... haven't seen it in this light. Perhaps you're right and the flexibility of the soulknife having more options for his mindblade wouldn't hurt too much. But IMHO at least the alignment specific ones and the elemental ones should be out. There are no powers that deal with alignments, so why should the soulknife. And I simply cannot see a soulknife suddenly manifesting a "frost" mindblade, sorry. It really doesn't fit the theme for my taste. Alignment specific ones are out, they can take the Aligned Strike feat if they want to pull that off. But I don't see the problem with the elemental variants. A soulknife yelling something dramatic like "summoning the spirit of thunder!" and then pulling out a blade of electric asskicking from nowhere seems very anime-esque to me. I like it. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Ra-Tiel 08-12-05, 10:39 AM	Hi. === @RadicalTaoist: Not bad. How about: Scorn Mundane Protection The belief system and mindset of any arcane spellcaster is, in a large part, responsible for their ability to see beyond the restrictions imposed on lesser beings. An important part of this is self confidence - to wield power matching the gods, you must first believe that you can. As a result, any kind of material protection such as shields or armor has a negative effect upon a wizard or sorceror's casting ability - to admit that he requires this is a subconscious admission on the mage's part that magic is not enough, that protection is beyond their eldritch grasp. Protection of similar sorts that comes from magical creation - such as a mage armor spell or bracers of armor - naturally does not create such a penalty. Likewise, natural armor that is a part of the mage's body does not have sufficient effect on a mage's paradigm of confidence in magic to cause such a penalty. Nice! Obviously, there ARE some ways to make this mechanic into a flavorful part of the campaignworld. But I can understand WotC why they didn't incorporate something like this into the PHb: as to not shortcut or restrict DMs who want to create their own world with its own "rules behind the scenes" - which seems to be most of WotC's customers. --- I'm sure that makes sense. :):twitch:...somehow... :D Someday, I'll get all of you! ;) --- Hmm...can you take levels in other archetypes? or advanced classes? You can only take levels in different archetypes, but NOT in different classes or advanced classes. The reason is simple: to prevent unintended double-piling and possibly gamebreaking effects. Just as an example: both the classes "warrior" and "brawler" (both building on the "fighter" archetype) get access to the talents "Smash", "Improved Smash", "Damage Reduction", and "Improved Damage Reduction". Each talent of the "Smash" line gives a +1 bonus on melee damage rolls and each talent of the "DR" line gives DR +1/-. If a character could take levels in both classes, he could have +4 on all melee damage rolls and DR 4/-, which is much better than what a character with only a single class could ever hope to achieve with the same ECL. --- Whoah, not that far. What I want the basic class to do is represent special training from a young age. Which is why you must take your 1st level of any basic class at character level 1, or not at all. It also makes the class applicable only to classes like Paladin and Monk, and not to more general class types like Fighter and Rogue, or classes based on inborn ability like the Sorceror. Frankly, Paladin, Monk, Druid, and Wizard are the only classes I feel need the basic class/prestige class division (in fact, I'd like Druid and Wizard to share a basic class). The other classes I don't feel need any early training, or only have early training as optional (like the cleric, I can see a character with mechanics reflecting being trained in the faith since birth, but that would be better represented with a feat taking only at 1st level). Ok, then I've clearly misunderstood your intentions. I thought you wanted to redesign the whole class system. But I can see your point and really like the idea! Perhaps we are going to see some kind of "student/teacher/master" class system in 4e? ;) --- Moron. What's your alignment, CN? Pull of that Time Hop thing as soon as you're sure you can get away with it. Then start a thread on the CO boards asking "My party wizard is a moron - how do I keep my wilder from dying because he's not doing his job?" We can get self-sufficiency. Or ask how to optimize a battle cleric :schemes: or a druid :evillaugh:. I recommend half-orc as a druid race - they've got a racial sub level that gives a benefit that's better than the Augmented Summoning feat, and doesn't require the deadweight feat Spell Focus: Conjuration (the feat and the sub level don't stack, though). My wilder is CG... and that could lead to some problems. But the problem has already solved itself: the player doesn't have time any more as he changed his job and now works in his parents' motel. Just something I've recalculated: his wizard has at least 26k gp more than my wilder because he didn't share the costs of a true resurrection for another PC (a one time player, but that doesn't matter in the game world). So I've paid the share of 17k alone (and the other 3k came from the dead PC). just grapped all the loot and didn't share it with the party. The red wizard that almost TPKed us (the event with the cloudkill...) had a Cloak of Resistance +4, a Headband of Intellect +4, and Gloves of Dexterity +4. Well... our wizard kept the gloves and the cloak, kept the Reddie's spellbook and sold the headband. God... I'm so glad that I don't have to "suffer" this character any longer. Just for the protocoll: his wizard was also CG - at least on the char sheet. --- It depends on your DM. Do you have the chance to prepare your defenses ahead of time? Then the crystal body thing is better. Does your DM give you the time in rounds for fast healing to actually save your neck? In that case True Metabolism is quite pleasant, especially extended. Gotta love Wilder MLs. Sometimes we can "see it coming" for a few rounds, sometimes we're already in the midst of it in the surprise round alone. I tend to my oak body variant because it grants some immunities and DR I wouldn't have the chance to acquire with other means. But I guess... "that my friend, time will show". :) --- A few complicating factors. Since my summer job kicked up, I don't have the chance to check up on the boards like I used to, as you may have noticed. :weep: My posting is sporadic. The bigger thing is, which forum to put it on? If we start a thread with some of your comments on the Eberron Races forum, for example, the WizOs may think "Ah, another Eberron-bashing troll." *click* And I need to clean out my PM box big time. I'm in two RealAdventures games right now and have a lot of party members to communique with. Hmm... ok. I also will get to start the next week or such (hopefully) so I'll also be a bit low on time. No problem. --- Alignment specific ones are out, they can take the Aligned Strike feat if they want to pull that off. But I don't see the problem with the elemental variants. A soulknife yelling something dramatic like "summoning the spirit of thunder!" and then pulling out a blade of electric asskicking from nowhere seems very anime-esque to me. I like it. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist Well, I'm not that big an anime fan. Things like "Princess Mononoke" or "Record of Lodoss War" are ok, but when watching things like "Bastard" I can feel my brain cancer growing. :rolleyes: === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 08-16-05, 12:08 PM	Nice! Obviously, there ARE some ways to make this mechanic into a flavorful part of the campaignworld. But I can understand WotC why they didn't incorporate something like this into the PHb: as to not shortcut or restrict DMs who want to create their own world with its own "rules behind the scenes" - which seems to be most of WotC's customers. Naturally. The game without houserules doesn't exist. You can only take levels in different archetypes, but NOT in different classes or advanced classes. The reason is simple: to prevent unintended double-piling and possibly gamebreaking effects. Just as an example: both the classes "warrior" and "brawler" (both building on the "fighter" archetype) get access to the talents "Smash", "Improved Smash", "Damage Reduction", and "Improved Damage Reduction". Each talent of the "Smash" line gives a +1 bonus on melee damage rolls and each talent of the "DR" line gives DR +1/-. If a character could take levels in both classes, he could have +4 on all melee damage rolls and DR 4/-, which is much better than what a character with only a single class could ever hope to achieve with the same ECL. Smart restrictions! Perhaps we are going to see some kind of "student/teacher/master" class system in 4e? ;) Frankly, I wonder if they even have a 4e in mind. They could make money off of this edition for another ten years without going to all the effort of reinventing the game again. My wilder is CG... and that could lead to some problems. But the problem has already solved itself: the player doesn't have time any more as he changed his job and now works in his parents' motel. Just something I've recalculated: his wizard has at least 26k gp more than my wilder because he didn't share the costs of a true resurrection for another PC (a one time player, but that doesn't matter in the game world). So I've paid the share of 17k alone (and the other 3k came from the dead PC). just grapped all the loot and didn't share it with the party. The red wizard that almost TPKed us (the event with the cloudkill...) had a Cloak of Resistance +4, a Headband of Intellect +4, and Gloves of Dexterity +4. Well... our wizard kept the gloves and the cloak, kept the Reddie's spellbook and sold the headband. God... I'm so glad that I don't have to "suffer" this character any longer. Just for the protocoll: his wizard was also CG - at least on the char sheet. Good to see it worked out. Hasta la vista tacanuelo, y no regresas porfavor! Sometimes we can "see it coming" for a few rounds, sometimes we're already in the midst of it in the surprise round alone. I tend to my oak body variant because it grants some immunities and DR I wouldn't have the chance to acquire with other means. But I guess... "that my friend, time will show". :) *shrugs* It's your call. You know which boards to ask this question to. Well, I'm not that big an anime fan. Things like "Princess Mononoke" or "Record of Lodoss War" are ok, but when watching things like "Bastard" I can feel my brain cancer growing. :rolleyes: :rofl: "My cognitive functions! They die!" :eek: :headexplo :ghosted: Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
nihility 12-01-05, 10:02 AM	:dancin:
RaspK FOG 01-29-06, 05:28 AM	The idea of armour lowering your caster level sounds interesting, until you realise how much variance the varius armours have when it comes to ASF: it always is a percentile number equal to (ACP + [0..2]) × 5%. Having read the Codex Mysterium (a very interesting read), one could always say that wearing armour imposes that you make a Spellcraft check with a DC 10 + spell level in order to successfully cast one, but the armour's ACP applies on the roll. How does that sound? ;)
Ra-Tiel 01-29-06, 09:17 AM	Hi. === @RaspK FOG: The idea of armour lowering your caster level sounds interesting, until you realise how much variance the varius armours have when it comes to ASF: it always is a percentile number equal to (ACP + [0..2]) × 5%. Having read the Codex Mysterium (a very interesting read), one could always say that wearing armour imposes that you make a Spellcraft check with a DC 10 + spell level in order to successfully cast one, but the armour's ACP applies on the roll. How does that sound? ;) Did you read through the whole thread? :blink: :crazy: I personally haven't spent much attention on ASF in my games, as I either play non-arcane characters, or wear robes. :P As to your suggestion witht the Spellcraft check... I'd find that too easy, and too too complex at the same time. Too easy, because a wizard past level 5 or 6 could wear full-plate almost without any hindrance. At level 5 a maximized Spellcraft check would be 8(ranks) + 2(synergy) + 4(Int mod) = +14. Full plate imposes a -6 penalty. So you'd have a DC of 10(base) + 3(spellevel) + 6(ACP) = 19, which in my opinion is too easy to make. At a base difficulty of 20(base) + 2*spell level I could agree, but your suggestion strikes me as too forgiving, sorry. Too complicated because the roll you have to make is dependend on too many factors. The classical ASF you can just add together from the armor and shield you're wearing and be done with it. With your variant, not only do those flow into the calculation, but also the spell level. So you have basically a seperate value for each spell level you can cast. But if this is what get's your campaign running, go for it! :) I personally will stay with my robed nosy gold elven wizard/geometer/olin gisir and won't touch armor with a 10ft pole. :D === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RadicalTaoist 03-13-06, 12:12 PM	Wow. This actually got attention. I remember this, good times, good times...
UMiskatonic 03-29-06, 05:20 PM	Hey, Are you sure that you are asking the right questions? I read most of the thread, and here is what occured to me. 1) In 2e, the rule was this: Wizards can't use armor. Too bad, it's totally impossible. It always seemed arbitrary. In response, ASF looks like a brilliant response. Easy to calculate, and a tradeoff that you can decide for yourself. Do I want better armor, or more reliability? Should I cast mage armor, or have one more first level spell? 2) Your suggestion, which you call amazingly different, looks very much the same to me. More armor = Less casting. Does it really matter how we micro-manage this? There are a lot of ways we could make casting less effective, and as long as we balance it vs. the gain from the armor, all is right in the world. 3) the REAL problem, is the poor design of the classes. Low level wizards are crappy, and sorceror is one of the worst classes in the game. At high levels, they both become frighteningly powerful, especially given time to prepare. Better balance would be something that kept them closer to a fighter of their level, from 1-20. The model of "protect me now, so that when we're high level I can return the favor" isn't so hot.
tarkin 03-29-06, 05:25 PM	I think you are exaggerating the worthlessness at low levels. A first level Sorceror/Wizard with Sleep Person is a combat master. And a low level mage type with just Charm Person may not be great after the combat has already started, but he makes it worth your while in non-combat.
smrtgmp 03-29-06, 08:31 PM	I agree with tarkin. My 3rd level sorcerer is an extreamly useful member of his party, and all he has at his disposal (other than his cantrips) are charm person, power word fatigue, and a cold-flavored derivative of grease. Sure, I dont do any damage, but I make things a lot easier for my team mates.