Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MindWandererB 11-04-05, 06:58 PM	I'm pretty slow when it comes to buying new books, so I'm out of date about current opinions when a book hits the shelves. I'm looking for feedback on what spells from 3.5 supplements (especially the Complete and Races books) people consider to be too good. I also don't know whether public opinion has changed- I remember a big stink over the Orb of (energy) spells, but not so much anymore. Can I get some input?
green_yawgmoth 11-04-05, 07:06 PM	Honestly, I have to say Shivering Touch (frostburn). 3d6 dex damage out of a 3rd level spell is way too much, even with the melee poke. Throw in sudden maximize, and 95% of all creatures are stiff as a board. Hell, even without it, a dragon (or similarly dexed creature) is screwed unless it's white or silver. If someone can show me how it isn't unbalanced, please tell me. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-04-05, 07:18 PM	Straight from the Core: Mage's Disjunction - infinity dispelling, infinite item destruction, artifact destruction, take yer pick. Three broken spells rolled into one! Polymorph - This is more the fault of the shapechanging rules than the spell. Fix the rules and you fix the whole line. From the splats: Wraithstrike - All your attacks this round are touch attacks? Really? Who okayed that?!
scout989 11-04-05, 08:12 PM	Though there isn't much stink about them anymore, the Orb spells are most definitely not a good idea- the only DD spells (that I know of) that bypass SR. Lets that mage be useful in pretty much every situation ever, so poor lonely fighter doesn't have anything left!
Darksoupgod 11-04-05, 10:35 PM	Huh? Lots of spells have no Spell Resistance. I gamed with a guy who played a mage with only "no save" and/or "no spell resistance" spells. It really ****** off the group, though. Seeing a mage with Widened Blindsight (PGF) firing Scorching Rays and Disintegrates at an enemy stuck in a Solid Fog cloud is just, ugh...
Esponer 11-04-05, 11:30 PM	When combined with an "anything goes" perspective on the item creation guidelines and the mathematic formulae presented therein, Distilled Joy (Book of Exalted Deeds) is the only path I've found to making a "Wish at will" item, by paying off the experience cost of making the item (with a few thousand castings). Though that hardly makes the spell itself broken. I'm in agreement with Vaalingrade Ashland - look no further than Disjunction and Shapechange. Disjunction is just too damn dangerous, and you know that Shapechange has problems when it appears it almost every single character optimisation build in existence (or some derivative of it). Shivering Touch sounds completely unreasonable, but I'd need to see the spell and I don't have Frostburn. And yes, Wraithstrike is more than a little bothersome. It only really steps into its own league of brokenness (well, occupied with True Strike) when you try out an item that casts it, use-activated, on every attack you make. Most of stuff in Complete Arcane seems balanced, though a lot of it is extremely useful. I'd take another look in Complete Adventurer for easily broken spells, and perhaps Complete Divine (though that seems better at breaking prestige classes, in my opinion).
Rhomphaia 11-05-05, 12:08 AM	Strait from core. Enlarge Person. Cast on fighter. Instant +2 Strength (which negates the attack penalty) and now being large size (as well as equipment being large size) has not only reach, but close to doubled damage capacity. The only downside is a -1 to AC. Not that big a deal. It really doesn't end in usefulness for quite a while either. A bit much for a level 1 spell. In reality, there is no way to make this spell both balanced and realistic and keep it as a level one spell. Up it to level two and that is doing better. Augury. Broken for the reason of being too subject to unscrupulous DM whims. Also for the ongoing debate about how it affects or may not affect certain artifacts. Remove the spell or more strictly defining what sorts of actions it can be used with will help, but not totally fix this spell. Spectral Hand. When combined with certain powerful nerfing spells like Bestow Curse or Touch of Idiocy, removes the only balancing factor of these spells, the need for the mage to get close to the target or risk thier familiar to touch the target. No real way of getting around this one other than consistently tossing BBEGs with high Will saves at the party, which is the only time any sane mage will use these combos, (against a BBEG). Edited to add this... Touch of Idiocy. When combined with Maximize Spell, works as a Bestow Curse that hits three ability scores on the short term (though that is often all it takes...). The only real fix is the same as with Spectral Hand. I cannot really think of any from splats right now.
Archtyrant Terevoth 11-05-05, 12:37 AM	Spikes Quill Blast Brambles
BladeDrinker 11-05-05, 12:59 AM	I also don't know whether public opinion has changed- I remember a big stink over the Orb of (energy) spells, but not so much anymore. It's interesting how people focused on the Orb spells and ignored stuff like bands of Steel, Blast of Flame, Enervation or Arc of Lightning. Anyway, good spells depend upon what you are looking for. Are you playing an arcane trickster with ray and battlefield control spells? A sorcerer battlemage? A fighter/mage?
SabianDeMarco 11-05-05, 02:19 AM	From the splats. Almost all the spells with swift or immediate action casting times. A truly unbalancing idea. Lets make incredibly powerful 1st level spells that let you attack with weapons as touch attacks, or let rogues sneak attack constructs, golems and undead, or other such ridiculous things. Then lets cast them as a FREE ACTION! Then lets balance them by only making them last one round..................but since they're only first lvl spells, by 10th level, you've got items with each of those spells as constant effects. I'd like to know who OK'd that nonsense. SabianDeMarco
beaver1024 11-05-05, 05:35 AM	Entangle, Flame Strike, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Fire Seeds, Holy Word and co, Miracle.
Bopple 11-05-05, 05:48 AM	If we disregard BoED & BoVD, I'd say, Assay Resistance Erupt Holy Word Polymorph Quill Blast Shapechange Shivering Touch Wraithstrike in alphabetical order
green_yawgmoth 11-05-05, 01:42 PM	Entangle, Flame Strike, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Fire Seeds, Holy Word and co, Miracle. Wait wait wait. Flamestrike? :uh-huh: What makes flamestrike so broken? It's a cylinder of fire that can hurt things normally resistant/immune to fire (a common immunity). This is a first for me. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Elgonn 11-05-05, 01:51 PM	Because it can't be said enough Quill Blast. It must have taken direct and specific effort to create a spell that bad. No Flamestrike isn't broken.
Reddius 11-05-05, 02:40 PM	What book have Wraithstrike? and the Quill Blast?
Elgonn 11-05-05, 03:00 PM	Complete Adventurer and Complete Divine respectively.
BladeDrinker 11-05-05, 03:02 PM	What book have Wraithstrike? and the Quill Blast? Wraithstrike is from complete adventurer. I can't remember where Quill Blast is from.
scout989 11-05-05, 03:07 PM	Huh? Lots of spells have no Spell Resistance. I gamed with a guy who played a mage with only "no save" and/or "no spell resistance" spells. It really ****** off the group, though. Seeing a mage with Widened Blindsight (PGF) firing Scorching Rays and Disintegrates at an enemy stuck in a Solid Fog cloud is just, ugh... Uh, the point there was that these are direct damage spells that bypass spell resistance, unlike those that you listed. That means that they are quite usable against golems and any other magic-immune monsters. There are other ways for a mage to be very effective in a fight against a golem, but those are the only spells that I know which allow him to do damage to the thing. That's what a fighter/meleeist is supposed to be there for- but not anymore.
Rjo 11-05-05, 04:24 PM	Seeing a mage with Widened Blindsight (PGF) Sorry to go off topic, but how could the mage Widen Blindsight? Widen only affects spells with an area type of burst, emanation, line, or spread.
Elgonn 11-05-05, 04:29 PM	Sorry to go off topic, but how could the mage Widen Blindsight? You can't he must be using a house rule or isn't using the rules. It isn't legal on any of the four versions (Magic of Faerun, Player's Guide to Faerun, Savage Species, Underdark). They all lack an 'area'.
smrtgmp 11-05-05, 05:05 PM	That's what a fighter/meleeist is supposed to be there for- but not anymore.Oh give me a break. The damage from the orb spells doesnt even begin to compete with a well built meleeist.
SabianDeMarco 11-06-05, 01:29 AM	Oh give me a break. The damage from the orb spells doesnt even begin to compete with a well built meleeist. I agree. If you are or have melee players that are continually shown up in the damage department by you party's mage's, then you need to sit down and take a good look at you're character sheet. My wizard is scared as hell of the parties palladin. While chances are that I could get away and stay away long enough to (hopefully) kill him from a distance, the sheer amount of damage he can do in one round is terrifying. And he doesn't have half the damage increasing feats that an actual fighter would.
Getafix 11-06-05, 02:01 AM	So all my big monsters are getting hosed by the players using Ray of Enfeeblement. In 3.0 SR and a fortitude save applied. In 3.5 both are gone. Is this a broken spell or a typo? Also, does Ray of enfeeblement stack? Bull's Strength does not...
Elgonn 11-06-05, 02:22 AM	Not broken. No typo. Doesn't stack.
smrtgmp 11-06-05, 02:29 AM	So all my big monsters are getting hosed by the players using Ray of Enfeeblement. In 3.0 SR and a fortitude save applied. In 3.5 both are gone. Is this a broken spell or a typo? Also, does Ray of enfeeblement stack? Bull's Strength does not...RoE is subject to SR. Ray of Enfeeblement Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: Ray Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes And no they dont stack.
Nightspirit 11-06-05, 02:46 AM	If you are or have melee players that are continually shown up in the damage department by you party's mage's, then you need to sit down and take a good look at you're character sheet. My wizard is scared as hell of the parties palladin. While chances are that I could get away and stay away long enough to (hopefully) kill him from a distance, the sheer amount of damage he can do in one round is terrifying. And he doesn't have half the damage increasing feats that an actual fighter would. or maybe the melee players need to sit down and take a good look at their sheets. Anyway, it depends on the level of the pcs. Remember that a maximized(rod) twinned orb of fire(CL 15) deal something like 180 damage(or 112 average, if you rule that twin and maximize don't stack) not to talk that at 17 level(18 if sorcerer) he can cast it more than once in the same round(w/shapechange)
smrtgmp 11-06-05, 02:57 AM	Big deal. Thats nothing at 15th level. I've seen a 10th level melee guy pump out more than that on each hit.
Nightspirit 11-06-05, 02:59 AM	Big deal. Thats nothing at 15th level. I've seen a 10th level melee guy pump out more than that on each hit. and me too. But it was a limit case, not the norm of tanks.
Sancus 11-06-05, 03:00 AM	hen lets balance them by only making them last one round..................but since they're only first lvl spells, by 10th level, you've got items with each of those spells as constant effects. This is retarded. The entire item system is based on requiring DM approval FOR EVERY SINGLE ITEM CREATED THAT IS NOT IN THE CORE RULES. The item system is not a "point buy" system. Players may not simply use it to create custom items however they like. It's not intended for that, it's intended to _help_ an intelligent DM price items. If you're dumb enough to allow spells that are obviously intended as extremely short boosts to become constant effects, then you deserve the results in your game. Seriously, the argument "this spell is broken because it allows you to make an item that does X" never makes any sense. You don't need to base an item off a spell. You can make whatever items you please. But they still need to be approved by the DM. You should completely ignore the spell prerequisite line when looking at an item, and ask yourself, "should I allow an item with this effect?". Who even cares what spell it's based on, if any?
beaver1024 11-06-05, 04:48 AM	Wait wait wait. Flamestrike? :uh-huh: What makes flamestrike so broken? It's a cylinder of fire that can hurt things normally resistant/immune to fire (a common immunity). This is a first for me. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif Flamestrike is broken because it breaks the divine damage caps and for a druid it even breaks the arcane damage cap for spells of it's level.
Wizard 11-06-05, 04:56 AM	Please explain to me how flamestrike, a 4th level spell, breaks the arcane damage caps when fireball, a 3rd level spell that does the same amount of damage, doesn't.
smrtgmp 11-06-05, 06:53 AM	Flame strike caps out at 15d6, where fireball maxes out at 10d6. Flame strike has a smaller radius, meaning it doesnt have the potential to hit as many foes, but its also easier to use in a melee without endangering your companions. It also does half holy damage, which is not stopped by fire resistance. The damage cap that was referred to limits 3rd and 4th level arcane area effect spells to 10d6 points of damage. The damage cap for arcane spells is supposed to be higher than that of divine spells, yet flamestrike is more damaging than any core 4th level arcane spell. If it followed the chart in the DMG, flame strike would do 10d6 or be a 6th level spell.
Nightspirit 11-06-05, 12:14 PM	look at lahm's finger darts from the BoVD and please, don't say that it isn't broken because of the corrupted cost...limited wish can duplicate restoration... it isn't as broken as shivering touch 'cause a spell turning can turn it back to the caster, but if you don't have access to that spell or you don't have a ring of spell turning, it's better to have an HIGH dex score or be immune to ability damage... from the same book there are also sadism/masochism, power leech
SabianDeMarco 11-06-05, 01:52 PM	look at lahm's finger darts from the BoVD and please, don't say that it isn't broken because of the corrupted cost...limited wish can duplicate restoration... If that's the case, then ALL corrupt spells are broken. All of them were purposfully beefed up for spells of their level. The corruption cost was designed to make them more costly to cast but worth that cost(to some) BECAUSE they broke the mold in power level for spells of their respective levels. To say that one of them is broken because you can burn 300xp to cast limited wish to restore corruption lost ability points implies that all are actually broken for the same reason. I'm not saying they're not broken. I have a lot of experience with these spells. A large number of them are truly ghastly creations that a GM should really contemplate wether he wants them in his game. Maybe the corruption cost should be changed so that damage dealt to abilities can only be healed naturally. One might be more cautious in casting them if they're going to be missing CON or DEX for a few days.
MysteryGilgamesh 11-06-05, 04:47 PM	Flame strike caps out at 15d6, where fireball maxes out at 10d6. Flame strike has a smaller radius, meaning it doesnt have the potential to hit as many foes, but its also easier to use in a melee without endangering your companions. It also does half holy damage, which is not stopped by fire resistance. The damage cap that was referred to limits 3rd and 4th level arcane area effect spells to 10d6 points of damage. The damage cap for arcane spells is supposed to be higher than that of divine spells, yet flamestrike is more damaging than any core 4th level arcane spell. If it followed the chart in the DMG, flame strike would do 10d6 or be a 6th level spell. WotC follows only two rules of PrC/spell/feat/class writing: 1: If it involves divine magic of any sort, it must be at least twice as powerful as any arcane counterpart. 2: If it could ever possibly aid a sorcerer, it must explicitly contain rules that equate to "No sorcerer can use or ever take this". This easily follows rule 1. ^_~
shivafang 11-06-05, 05:06 PM	I still think Creeping Cold (copmplete divine) is bad once you tack on extend or sudden extend. By the litteral reading of the rules it's 21d6 for a 2nd level spell slot.
smrtgmp 11-06-05, 05:10 PM	Over 6 rounds. The fight will probably be over by then anyways.
Nightspirit 11-06-05, 05:18 PM	If that's the case, then ALL corrupt spells are broken. Not true. Not all the corrupted spells are broken if you find a way to avoid the corruption cost. Another easy way to avoid it is shapechange(undead/construct form) or veil of undeath
Fundin Strongarm 11-06-05, 05:40 PM	Big deal. Thats nothing at 15th level. I've seen a 10th level melee guy pump out more than that on each hit. Just curious: With just the Core and Complete books, how does a Meleeist pump out 100 (or 50 or even 30) damage regularly? Sorry for taking this off topic.
Getafix 11-06-05, 05:59 PM	Thanks for pointing out that spell resistance does apply for Ray of Enfeeblement. I missed that. Many have said it doesn't stack- on what basis do you make that claim?
green_yawgmoth 11-06-05, 06:10 PM	Thanks for pointing out that spell resistance does apply for Ray of Enfeeblement. I missed that. Many have said it doesn't stack- on what basis do you make that claim? It's a penalty to str, not ability damage, contrary to what the short version says. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
smrtgmp 11-06-05, 08:10 PM	Just curious: With just the Core and Complete books, how does a Meleeist pump out 100 (or 50 or even 30) damage regularly?You can do it with just core. If you add the complete books its no problem. Basically combine power attack with the various charge related feats and your damage potential goes through the roof. A two handed weapon, in conjuction with power attack, leap attack and shock trooper means you can do a 4:1 power attack ratio on a charge without any penalty to hit. If you're a mounted charger, throw spirited charge into the mix and things really get crazy, as a mounted charging crit with a lance does x5 damage (x3 on a normal charge with spirited charge). With spirited charge and leap attack, your basically getting a 12:1 power attack ratio. On a crit its 20:1. The damage adds up rather quickly at that point, especially when you throw 1.5 your str bonus into the mix. I was working on a dwarven tank the other day *runs to get notes* that, at 13th level, does 1d8+59 damage on a normal a power attack (3d8+172 crit) with his hammer. When charging, its 1d8+83 (3d8+249 on crit). Given that you can pump this out every round (and often more than once per round, if you build it right), its hard for a spell caster to keep up in the damage department for any length of time. This is all with just a modicum of optimising. The chargers on the CO boards make this damage look pathetic.
Poor_Advice 11-06-05, 09:16 PM	Ray of enfeeblement, i'm a relatively new DM, and the party's wizard is getting extreemly out of hand, he keeps zapping empowered or worst... suddenly maximized RoE at the BBEGs and totally nerfing them (think 2 feindish dire wolves and a Half-fiend fighter level 5.... all nerfed.) an because he has Practiced Spellcaster feat which for some reason is WAY better then Spell focus (correct me if im wrong). THere is probably an easy way around this but due to my inexperience it is ruining the game for the tank players.
Votan 11-06-05, 09:39 PM	Ray of enfeeblement, i'm a relatively new DM, and the party's wizard is getting extreemly out of hand, he keeps zapping empowered or worst... suddenly maximized RoE at the BBEGs and totally nerfing them (think 2 feindish dire wolves and a Half-fiend fighter level 5.... all nerfed.) an because he has Practiced Spellcaster feat which for some reason is WAY better then Spell focus (correct me if im wrong). THere is probably an easy way around this but due to my inexperience it is ruining the game for the tank players. Practiced caster can't increase the level of the caster beyond his total character level so it has no effect if he is not multi-classed. He needs to hit these thiongs with a ranged touch attack -- not hard but it shouldn't be automatic. Only the highest value on each creature counts so he is giving them (probably) something like a -2 to all attack rolls -- a Bard is capable of the same sorts of things with bardic music and/or simple spells. Heck, a cleric could do that.
Nightspirit 11-07-05, 05:12 AM	other broken spells: wieldskill, divine insight, voice of the dragon Never allow a pc to use all of them in conjunction, if you don't want to see how broken is the diplomacy skill...
Earthcrosser599 11-07-05, 05:36 AM	other broken spells: wieldskill, divine insight, voice of the dragon Never allow a pc to use all of them in conjunction, if you don't want to see how broken is the diplomacy skill... It's only as broken as the DM allows. Bluff, Diplomacy, Sleight of Hand, and Intimidate can and probably will run rampant if the DM doesn't keep an eye on them and decide when enough is enough. Gate is pretty high up on the power scale, along with most of the other high level spells. Teleport comes to mind as for the most abusable.
smrtgmp 11-07-05, 10:52 AM	Yes, but diplomacy has set DCs rather than opposed rolls. Once you can hit those DC's reliably, you have the potential to end any conflict with a full round action. Still, I agree with you, especially when the skill description includes the cavet that not all situations can be resolved via diplomacy. That basically gives the DM free reign to just say no (not that he ever had to ask permission).
Nightspirit 11-07-05, 11:11 AM	Bluff, Diplomacy, Sleight of Hand, and Intimidate can and probably will run rampant if the DM doesn't keep an eye on them and decide when enough is enough. "The DM has to limits it=broken"
Poor_Advice 11-07-05, 06:21 PM	:D thanks votan for clearing that up. my wizard has been problematic with feats lately.... cant trust him anymore to use them correctly. I knew that I was reading practiced spellcaster wrong. just seemed so redundant to release a feat to replace the other.
Reddius 11-08-05, 05:17 AM	From the splats: Wraithstrike - All your attacks this round are touch attacks? Really? Who okayed that?! This spell with Persistance Metamagic Feat (which let it active 24 hrs) = Broken. x_X
Shatteredtower 11-08-05, 08:09 AM	"The DM has to limits it=broken"That's the kind of thinking that breaks the game. The rules for those skills say that there are limits to how far they'll go, while not defining those limits. Making judgment calls is one of the major duties of DMing.
Nightspirit 11-08-05, 10:37 AM	That's the kind of thinking that breaks the game. The rules for those skills say that there are limits to how far they'll go, while not defining those limits. Making judgment calls is one of the major duties of DMing. How this kind of thinking can breaks the game? :confused:
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-08-05, 01:24 PM	Because expecting the designers to do thier jobs is wrong. Very wrong.
Ash the blackcowl 11-08-05, 04:08 PM	Still, I agree with you, especially when the skill description includes the cavet that not all situations can be resolved via diplomacy. That basically gives the DM free reign to just say no (not that he ever had to ask permission).[/QUOTE] The DM always, always can just say NO!!!!!!!
smrtgmp 11-08-05, 04:30 PM	Which is why I said he never had to ask permission in the first place.
MindWandererB 11-08-05, 09:13 PM	While I'll agree that Polymorph and its spawn still have problems despite WotC's continual efforts, and Disjunction should probably be nerfed a bit, I'm willing to accept the rest of the spells in the PHB as the standard by which other spells should be judged. If we start nerfing PHB spells too badly, we'll get what happened in M:tG and not have any spells worth crap anymore in a couple of editions. (I personally agree with a lot of the other claims--Flamestrike, especially, which does as much damage as a 5th-level Wiz/Sorc spell ought to and bypasses energy resistance besides-- but as a DM, I find it a lot easier to just accept those as the upper limit of power and move on.) So far we have: · Shivering Touch (Frostburn): 3d6 Dex damage for a 3rd level spell. Especially Maximized, that's a bit much. · Wraithstrike (CV): Swift spell that allows melee and natural weapons to be touch attacks for a round. Metamagic makes this awful, but it's also bad because high-level characters get more milage out of it than low-level ones. There are other spells with this problem in CV, but this might be the worst. · Orb of (energy) (CA): 15d6 is standard damage for a 5th-level spell. It's a ranged touch spell that hits 1 target, which is worth the decrease to 4th level, but it bypasses SR and has a bonus status effect as well. Plus there's the uncertain logic of "conjured sound" etc. · Distilled Joy (BoED): If you make magic items, you can use this an unlimited number of times to reduce the XP cost by 2 per casting. There are RP mitigating factors, but still.... · Brambles (CD): For 1 round/level, a wooden bludgeoning weapon gets +1 to hit and +1/level to damage. That's a whole lot of damage for a 2nd-level spell. I understand there are spells from other sources that this balances with, but it's a lot compared to the PHB. · Spikes (CD): Brambles' big sibling, extending the duration to 1 hour/level and increasing the threat range. And it's 3rd level. Anyone who is allowed to but isn't using this- especially a nunchaku-wielding monk- is an idiot. · Quill Blast (CD): Huge or larger creatures are hit with 4d6 quills (that's 14 on average, save for half), each of which does 1d6 damage and imposes a -1 penalty on attacks, saves, and "checks." At any level, a -14 penalty to anything is way too much. And it's an area effect, too, though a small one. And this is nothing compared to when you Maximize this sucker: -24 to everything and 144 damage, no energy type. Outshines anything you can otherwise do with an 8th-level slot. · Arc of Lightning (CA): Even compared to the high-powered Flame Strike, this spell also bypasses SR, plus being very easy to hit multiple targets with. And why is this spell Conjuration? · Blast of Flame (CA): While trading a spell level for the ability to bypass SR doesn't seem grossly imbalanced, the generous 60' cone shape makes it perhaps a bit too good. And again, this doesn't sound remotely like a Conjuration spell. · Bands of Steel (CA): This borders on a save-or-die for Medium or smaller creatures. At 3rd level, this remains a great spell throughout a sorcerer or wizard's career. · Assay Resistance (CA): Basically makes SR a non-issue for one monster. High-level casters will stock up on tons of these if permitted. · Erupt: Can't find this spell. I may not own the book. Info from anyone? · Lahm's Finger Darts (BoVD): While this has been nominated, I don't agree. Throwing your fingers away is a bad thing, even if you get them regenerated later, and the Str damage adds up, too. Saying that "limited wish can fix it" effectively gives the spell an XP cost. · Creeping Cold (CD): As written, it's not broken, since there is no RAW effect to Extending it. DMs should be careful not to extrapolate the damage progression if Extended. · Various spells that add bonuses to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate: Abusable by creative players and lenient DMs, especially if several spells are stacked. Diplomacy especially, since the DC is static. Any other nominations? Keep 'em coming, I'm sure they're out there!
Timlagor 11-08-05, 10:23 PM	Good list. Diplomacy is much more limitted in what it can achieve when I DM: you can make people like you but that doesn't mean they won't kill you. * Brambles+Spikes+GMW: did you catch the FAQ entry claming they all stack for damage? *Orbs: not broken imo but definitely a mistake * Blast of Flame is not *broken* -definitely powerful but not broken. *Unluck is probably more powerful (pick your targets) but still not broken. *Burning Blood tops both of those and is pretty close to broken (especially if you get the Unluck to stick) * Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (d6/level touch attack up to 40d6, round/level, disintergrate effect) is certainly powerful but as a 9th level spell... * Transmute Rock to Lava is another 9th level spell: if you can get a Greater Rod of Sculpting it looks like a guaranteed kill (or lots) on a 20' radius for anything without serious Fire protection -not good for your loot though. *The Mass Buff spells are generally a lower level than they should be (eg 4th Mass Resist Energy: If Chain Spell applied to touch spells it would make Resist Energy 5th level to Chain having spent the Feat on it) Actually broken imo (in addition to the others already mentioned): * Recitation (anything that nasty with no save or roll...) * Illusory Pit -Stun on a MADE save?? * Assay Resistance * Reciprocal Gyre -well maybe it's just nasty * Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability
smrtgmp 11-09-05, 01:05 AM	Orb of (energy) (CA): 15d6 is standard damage for a 5th-level spell. It's a ranged touch spell that hits 1 target, which is worth the decrease to 4th level, but it bypasses SR and has a bonus status effect as well. Plus there's the uncertain logic of "conjured sound" etc.!Just a nitpick, but the orbs dont exceed the damage cap. 15d6 is standard for a 5th level area spell. If you check the damage caps in the DMG, you will see that a single target 4th level arcane spell should have the potential to do 15 dice of damage. The orbs follow that guideline.
Shatteredtower 11-09-05, 04:58 AM	Because expecting the designers to do thier jobs is wrong. Very wrong.It's never been their job to hold your hand and give you details of exactly how every encounter must be handled. That you would expect -- no, that you would demand this, defies belief.
Missing Minds 11-09-05, 08:23 AM	Flame strike caps out at 15d6, where fireball maxes out at 10d6. (snip...) The damage cap that was referred to limits 3rd and 4th level arcane area effect spells to 10d6 points of damage. (snip....) If it followed the chart in the DMG, flame strike would do 10d6 or be a 6th level spell. WotC follows only two rules of PrC/spell/feat/class writing: 1: If it involves divine magic of any sort, it must be at least twice as powerful as any arcane counterpart. 2: If it could ever possibly aid a sorcerer, it must explicitly contain rules that equate to "No sorcerer can use or ever take this". This easily follows rule 1. ^_~ I snipped a bit up there to limit how much would be re posted. Where do most all divine casters get their spells from? Their patron deity! (I say most because Favored Souls are more of a divine sorcerer) Player: I'm taking nothing but Flame Strike for my 5th level spells. :) DM: No you're not. Bob is only granting you two. Player: :confused: :eek: If a divine is getting out of control, have their deity/DM step in to challenge their faith. Yes, I'm for role play more than I am a slaughter house effect.
smrtgmp 11-09-05, 05:53 PM	That doesnt mean WotC should ignore the limitations they created. Rule 0 does not justify the release of unbalanced material. Besides, dropping random houserules on your PCs without warning is never a good idea.
Reddius 11-09-05, 07:56 PM	That doesnt mean WotC should ignore the limitations they created. Rule 0 does not justify the release of unbalanced material. Besides, dropping random houserules on your PCs without warning is never a good idea. Hopefully all those problematic spells will be fixed in the Spell Compedium book coming next month.
Realms of Chaos 11-09-05, 10:09 PM	Spell Compendium?! What is it going to be called? I got to know!
smrtgmp 11-10-05, 01:28 AM	Its called the Spell Compendium (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/885987200).
syrinth 11-10-05, 09:08 AM	Sorry, but that was just priceless :heehee :rofl:
ezreal2001 11-11-05, 04:49 AM	This spell with Persistance Metamagic Feat (which let it active 24 hrs) = Broken. x_X Although I think the real problem here might be Persistance being able to up the duration of any non instanaeous spell, regardless of their actual duration, to 24 hours. All I can say is thank God Persistant Improved Invis is a 10 level spell
Waylander 11-11-05, 07:30 AM	My list of top most broken spells.. 1) Orb of Fire, orb of cold, orb of sonic, orb of acid, orb of lightning (note i didn't say orb of force). 2) Celestial Brilliance. 3) Evard's Black Tentacles 4) Web. 5) Wall of Stone
Wrin777 11-11-05, 10:57 AM	Umm, I know people are going to have a small fit about this but...I think both Mord/Mage's Disjunction and Antimagic Field are far too powerful. At least, they are when compared to the Dispel Magic chain. Greater Dispelling vs Antimagic Field is the most telling example, but this may just indicate that the Dispel Magic chain is underpowered.
malignor 11-11-05, 12:52 PM	Alter Self This spell can replace other spells, as well as some other abilities. - Alter Self - Aquatic Elf (replaces water breathing as you get gills, plus swim speed 40) - Alter Self - Halfling or Kobold (replaces reduce self, plus other bonuses) - Alter Self - Lizardfolk (hold breath, claws, +5 Natural AC like high barkskin) - Alter Self - Locathah/Merfolk (replace water breathing, +8 swim & take 10) - Alter Self - LYCANTHROPE (can basically turn into any lycanthrope-capable animal, or animal hybrid... even in animal form they are considered HUMANOID, but you can't shift between forms as that's a supernatural ability; eat your heart out, druids) - Alter Self - Troglodyte (claw/claw/bite, multiattack, +4/+8 hide bonus and +6 (!!!) Natural Armor) ... now that's if you're humanoid. I dread what an outsider could do with this spell.
Beppo 11-11-05, 01:09 PM	All I can say is thank God Persistant Improved Invis is a 10 level spell If you take enough levels in "Incantatrix" or "Halruaan Elder" it's a 9th level spell. If you take both it will be 8th level :)
malignor 11-11-05, 02:43 PM	Another note on polymorph. If you have a familiar who is within 5' of you, it also can polymorph into the same creature you do (via Share Spells) as long as your critter is next to you! Thus polymorph can be a double-threat! Whoever has the higher initiative (you or familiar) simply holds action to match all movement such that you're both within 5' of each other. This will keep your familiar in that form. EDIT: I just realized that, according to "share spells" it bypasses the different creature type barrier... so Alter Self can also affect your familiar, like if your familiar is a cat and you Alter Self into a small creature, both you and your familiar can change if within 5'; "Small" is within 1 size category for both you and your familiar.
smrtgmp 11-11-05, 07:10 PM	Alter Self This spell can replace other spells, as well as some other abilities. - Alter Self - Aquatic Elf (replaces water breathing as you get gills, plus swim speed 40)Water breating lasts 2 hours per level and can effect multiple targets. Alter self lasts 10min/level and is personal. Obvioulsy the latter doesnt entirely replace the former. - Alter Self - Halfling or Kobold (replaces reduce self, plus other bonuses)Yes, it trumps reduce person. Which is a 1st level spell. - Alter Self - LYCANTHROPE (can basically turn into any lycanthrope-capable animal, or animal hybrid... even in animal form they are considered HUMANOID, but you can't shift between forms as that's a supernatural ability; eat your heart out, druids)Check the spell description. You cannot take the form of anything with a template. Lyncanthrope is a template. You do the math.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-11-05, 08:52 PM	It's never been their job to hold your hand and give you details of exactly how every encounter must be handled. That you would expect -- no, that you would demand this, defies belief. No, what I expect AND demand is the basic sembelence of balance. Why shouldn't I? Otherwise: Look at me, I'm WotC Wiz1 [Transmutation] (Awesome) Target: Self Duration: 1rd/level Effect: You are protected from all of your mistakes by a powerful, fanboyish force Whenever you would be adversely effected by an effect caused by yourself, the effect instead acts on 1 of your allies (determined randomly). Seem balanced? Who cares? I'm absolved of all wrongs because its the DM's responsability! Wheeee! Look, some of us work days on spells and other homebrew things, painstakingly testing and retesting them to make sure they're balanced. So its a slap in the face when they put some crap like Wraithstrike out in a supplement and call it a day.
smrtgmp 11-11-05, 08:54 PM	wraithstrike wouldnt be so bad if it was something like 4th level. 2nd is definately too low, IMO.
syrinth 11-11-05, 08:56 PM	No, what I expect AND demand is the basic sembelence of balance. Why shouldn't I? Otherwise: Look at me, I'm WotC Wiz1 [Transmutation] (Awesome) Target: Self Duration: 1rd/level Effect: You are protected from all of your mistakes by a powerful, fanboyish force Whenever you would be adversely effected by an effect caused by yourself, the effect instead acts on 1 of your allies (determined randomly). Seem balanced? Who cares? I'm absolved of all wrongs because its the DM's responsability! Wheeee! Look, some of us work days on spells and other homebrew things, painstakingly testing and retesting them to make sure they're balanced. So its a slap in the face when they put some crap like Wraithstrike out in a supplement and call it a day. :heehee Personally I always found Gate to be pretty darn scary unless the DM ensures that it comes back and bites the player in the rear. (Would comment about Wraithstrike but don't know enough about it lol)
smrtgmp 11-11-05, 08:59 PM	Its a 2nd level spell with a swift action casting time that allows you to deliver all your melee attacks as touch attacks for 1 round. Very scary when combined with power attack, especially if the individual casting it is a dragon.
syrinth 11-11-05, 09:03 PM	.........nuhr......? :twitch: :twitch: is it self only or can you cast it on other people as well? and that is kinda scary.....
smrtgmp 11-11-05, 09:17 PM	self only. Its also an assassin spell. Sneak attacks galore.
syrinth 11-11-05, 09:37 PM	Oh my dear sweet giddy aunt and Lolth's dear mother.
Shatteredtower 11-12-05, 01:54 AM	No, what I expect AND demand is the basic sembelence of balance. Why shouldn't I?How can you, if you won't accept them when you get them? In other words, you appear to want the designers to hold your hand and leave you entirely to your own devices at the same time. So the designers don't always consider all of the ramifications of a spell like wraithstrike. It happens now and then, even after "painstaking efforts", especially when you're working on something like this in the context of a book called Complete Adventurer. It might seem like it happens more often than not, but that's merely an issue of the sheer volume of material out there. In some games, it even works out as is -- mainly because no one at the table is interesting in figuring out just how far you have to go to break the game with something like this. Was it really so obvious that wraithstrike would be most useful to dragons and other bruisers of that calibre? Hardly. Oh, someone spotted the danger quickly enough once the spell wound up in the hands of people who felt they had nothing better to do than tear apart the work line by line, sometimes in the name of corrective criticism, but when you do this sort of thing for a living... ...life's too short. Really, sooner or later, some wit out here on the boards will break a healthy percentage of anything you introduce, no matter how much "painstaking" effort you put into preventing the breakage. It doesn't, as much as some people desperately need to believe, make the designers idiots. It just means that their priorities are not focused on catering to unreasonable demands. Too many of these complaints really deserve no more response than, "Any problem you've got with that is your problem, and if your players don't approve of your fix, it's still your problem." Of course, it's not "customer friendly" to say such things, not even when they're correct. Nearly all of this is about nothing more than perspective. The stakes, as in most internet debates, are rather insignificant. (Look up what Henry Kissinger had to say about university politics. I'm sure you'll see why it's equally applicable to internet discussion such as this one, particularly in regard to exactly what a game designer should provide in what people generally want to be a adaptable system.) The rules, core and non-core, are all suggestions to be tinkered with (even ignored) as your group deems fit. They may not satisfy you, but accept that most fixes are no more than preferred alternatives, not improvements.
smrtgmp 11-12-05, 02:06 AM	In all fairness, it doesnt take much tinkering to break wraithstrike.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-12-05, 02:29 AM	If they're not expected to perform simple playtests (Which is all it would have taken to catch wraithstike, brambles, etc), then what are they being paid for? Just to slap things together and push it out the door? Wow, have I've got something to say to a lot of WotC material only DMs then. I've seen many, many people defend the designers by deifying them and claiming they can do no wrong... but this is the first time I've been told to flat out ignore glaringly bad work solely on the fact that they're game designers. If I, or you, or anyone else here posted Wraithstrike as written here, we would have been rightfully lambasted for it. Just because a guy has a certain job doesn't make his mistakes okay. Was it really so obvious that wraithstrike would be most useful to dragons and other bruisers of that calibre? Hardly. You really think its that hard to realise that anything that can deal apreciable melee damage would benefit from having a full attack with all attacks being touch attacks? Really?
syrinth 11-12-05, 02:31 AM	Once more I find myself amused by agreeing with Val lol. Playtesting = good. those who don't playtest should get a smack upside the head. ^_^
Shatteredtower 11-12-05, 02:41 AM	I'm not sure I consider a spell that discourages people from taking toe-to-toe melee with a dragon lightly broken. It's still not likely to be considered the most effective strategy for a dragon, unless you create one with the Dire Charge feat and Improved Rapidstrike selected for both wings and claws -- but that's the hazard of mixing non-core material and even that might not be broken. You really wouldn't want to give a dragon an option like that even if it wasn't available, surely? ;) As for assassins, by the time they hit 10th level in the class, most of them should be able to use the spell at least 10 rounds a day. At this point, a surprise round and winning initiative can really pay off -- as long as they can score sneak attack damage. (The lack of true seeing on the spell list means that most forms of concealment are a hassle for them.) It's great when you're trying to get past a lot of natural armor, such as that of an ancient dragon, or magical heavy armor, but the results don't put you ahead of an equal level spellcaster, not in a game where magic armor can sometimes prevent sneak attack damage. I think it could use an adjustment or two, but I can also see why the designers had a blind spot in calculating the balance on this one.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-12-05, 02:44 AM	Playtesting? We don't need no Stinking Playtesting! Wiz 3.5 [Transmutation](Unprofessional) Target: Self Duration: 1 rd Casting time: Swift For the remainder of the round all attacks you make that hit automatically become critical hits as if you just rolled a natural 20. Verbal Component: Balance? Feh. What? You want me to hold your hand? Alternate Verbal Component: I call upon the full might of the Oberoni Fallacy!
syrinth 11-12-05, 02:47 AM	:heehee if only it weren't true!
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-12-05, 02:55 AM	I'm not sure I consider a spell that discourages people from taking toe-to-toe melee with a dragon lightly broken. It's still not likely to be considered the most effective strategy for a dragon, unless you create one with the Dire Charge feat and Improved Rapidstrike selected for both wings and claws -- but that's the hazard of mixing non-core material and even that might not be broken. You really wouldn't want to give a dragon an option like that even if it wasn't available, surely? ;) Screw the dragon. A troll wizard is the back breaker for this spell. Touch, touch, *REND* CR8, deals... 5d6+24 (39 damage) for the cost of a second level spell as long as he doesn't roll (on average) below a 3 (+10 attack). Anything that rends, really. It's not pretty. Its like a fireball for a level lower. It now occurs to me that there are probably intellegent big cats. Rake is not going to be nice either.
malignor 11-12-05, 03:04 AM	Well, that's true about the Lycanthrope thing. However, one 2nd level spell giving +6 to natural AC (stacks with mage armor), natural weapons, multiattack and skill bonuses is pretty sweet, and I think a little overdone for a 2nd level spell. Also, thanks to the text on a familiar's ability to share spells, you can (if you pick the right size) turn your familiar into a combatant/helper (while they remain within 5' of you). If your familiar is tiny (like most) and you're medium (like most), you can use Alter Self to turn both you and your familiar into a small humanoid (halfling, gnome, kobold, goblin)! "Small" is one size category away from both your "medium" and your familiar's "tiny", and the fine print for sharing spells allows a familiar to disregard its creature tpe (magical beast). Now you have someone who can carry stuff, assist defend you, attack (with unfamiliar weapons; has no W.Proficiencies, but still has your base attack) etc. etc. NOW does it look more powerful than a 2nd level spell should be?
Shatteredtower 11-12-05, 03:34 AM	If they're not expected to perform simple playtests (Which is all it would have taken to catch wraithstike, brambles, etc), then what are they being paid for? Just to slap things together and push it out the door?Ah, so now it's not "painstaking", but "simple." No, of course there's more to it than that. I really couldn't say all of what's involved. Maybe they don't use anything more than a dartboard to make their decisions. Maybe they don't spend a lot of time on concept review and in search of mechanical methods to bring such concepts into the game. Maybe it's all press conferences and pizza. I doubt you believe that any more than I do, though. Wow, have I've got something to say to a lot of WotC material only DMs then.This comes as no surprise to anyone. :rolleyes: I've seen many, many people defend the designers by deifying them and claiming they can do no wrong... but this is the first time I've been told to flat out ignore glaringly bad work solely on the fact that they're game designers.I have a hard time believing anyone could actually misread what I wrote that badly unless it was done wilfully. Of course, that would hardly surprise me either. If one spell doesn't work for you, leave it out of your game. No one tore your heart out and used it it as a football. The game still works. It's not "glaringly bad work." It's a target-of-the-month. This also makes it a rallying point for any wannabe professional game designer looking in the wrong place for a chance to create an opening for themselves. Not everyone expressing a problem with this or other spells is that wannabe looking for that chance to push aside a successful competitor, but it's only natural to be suspicious of the ones that never resist the chance to take a shot at them, even one carefully geared to be as indirect as possible. If I, or you, or anyone else here posted Wraithstrike as written here, we would have been rightfully lambasted for it.Yeah, and the difference between that and trolling is? Not that much. Cheap shots do not make the argument. The hyperbole is not constructive. More amusing than most trolling, but about as dishonest. Just because a guy has a certain job doesn't make his mistakes okay.Nor does it make them international crimes for which he deserves to be tarred and feathered. It does not make him incompetent. You really think its that hard to realise that anything that can deal apreciable melee damage would benefit from having a full attack with all attacks being touch attacks? Really?In context? Yes. What's that context? It's a book geared primarily toward roguish or skill-based ideas. Is it a good idea to factor in the capacity of a massive bruiser for such spells? Sure. Is it reasonable to miss such a thing while you're concentrating on something that gives an assassin or arcane trickster (or equivalent) a better chance of cutting down a heavily armored opponent? Yup. It's a lot like what Dr. Siegbert Tarrasch labelled amaurosis scacchistica, better known as chess blindness. Sometimes, you miss even the obvious in your efforts, which may certainly have been considerable up to that point. I don't even consider this one obvious, save in hindsight. By all means, draw attention to the oversight, but stop blowing it out of proportion. We can overlook the spelling mistakes made here, after all, and are those any less deserving of ridicule? No, they're not, but that's not acceptable conduct here for a good reason. Why should it then be any different for how one assesses a designer's efforts?
Shatteredtower 11-12-05, 05:25 AM	Screw the dragon. A troll wizard is the back breaker for this spell. Touch, touch, *REND* CR8Technically, the default assumption is that this would be CR 7, due to the nonassociated class levels. However, in the case of a troll with only a few class levels, it's probably best to calculate CR as you have done. ...deals... 5d6+24 (39 damage) for the cost of a second level spell as long as he doesn't roll (on average) below a 3 (+10 attack). Anything that rends, really. It's not pretty. Its like a fireball for a level lower.There are a few flaws with this example, however: The bite (worth 1d6+3 from that total) is only at +5 on the attack roll, which throws your average off a bit. It's a quibble, and certainly that last 1d6+3 isn't the real issue here, so let's move on. The fireball in question can hit more than one target. However, since the average troll damage listed slightly exceeds the average for a 10 HD fireball on a failed save, you've likely accounted for that. Your troll in question is using its best powers to accomplish this feat. Assuming an average point buy build, it can only do this once, though it's not unreasonable to assume means of performing the task twice a day. A tyrannosaur or an ogre mage. An 8th level wizard with enervation (or several other spells). Circumstances aren't much worse than they'd be against a 3rd level troll fighter with Weapon Focus (claw) and Improved Natural Attack (claw). (Worse, yes, but the first round is down to luck, after which the fighter comes out ahead.) Wraithstrike doesn't overcome concealment, a resource your party should seriously consider employing before engaging a troll in melee. Even if it's a surprise encounter, it is generally a good idea to prepare such measures in any event. Despite this troll's melee reach, it only gains the real edge of the spell by casting it within a 5' step of striking an enemy. Admittedly, this isn't such a problem, since you don't draw an attack of opportunity by casting a spell with a swift action casting time. However, if the risk of a rending attack is such a concern, then the real issue isn't the spell, but the rending action. Increasing its chance of occuring from 25% to 85% is impressive, but you already had to have a strategy in place for dealing with this. Though it goes against current recommendations by many parties, this may be one of those times that the cleric should stand by with healing spells at the ready for use in combat. Wanted to address teh atcs. Computer expericncing lag.. Next time?
LadyCreator 11-12-05, 05:50 AM	If they're not expected to perform simple playtests (Which is all it would have taken to catch wraithstike, brambles, etc), then what are they being paid for? Just to slap things together and push it out the door?Really? Designers write material with diferent power levels in mind. If you're running a low magic campaign, or feel that the spell is too powerful for your setting leave it out. Take a look at Magic of Faerun and the PHB and tell me they are on the same level? I for one like to have the option to have more powerful spells available if I want them, but I'm not going to take it all at face value. The other big thing is that anything the player can break the DM can break better. If there is a tactic that is annoying you and you dont want to flat out ban it, use it against your players!
mane 11-12-05, 10:40 AM	My list of top most broken spells.. 3) Evard's Black Tentacles This is the one we have had most problerms with, to the extent that we now have a deal that neither players nor dm's will use it... at lvl 10 the tentacles have +18 to grapple a lvl 10 barbarian might have about the same (50%/50%) lvl 10 clerick,rogue or bard might have +9 (bab +7 str +2) (14%/86%) lvl 10 sorcs and wizards even less typically +5 -> no chance at all so chances of getting out of there are pretty slim for most of characters classes. The spell has no save, no SR and they automatically hit, thus going around even the normal (very slight) grapple obstacles. For a time everybody that coud was walking around with freedom of movements, and stilled dimdoors. It was silly that everything had to be planned to work around single spell...
JoshuaWilhoyte 11-12-05, 11:44 AM	I'm sorry, your worry about balance is coming from Troll Wizards? Troll Wizards are a common enough occurence that you feel that WotC should be specifically considering them as markers for balance? Dragons I can see as absolutely terrifying with Wraithstrike, sure, but Troll Wizards? With a -4 INT modifier?
Votan 11-12-05, 11:54 AM	By all means, draw attention to the oversight, but stop blowing it out of proportion. We can overlook the spelling mistakes made here, after all, and are those any less deserving of ridicule? No, they're not, but that's not acceptable conduct here for a good reason. Why should it then be any different for how one assesses a designer's efforts? This is a good point. While I occasionally blink twice when I see what a spell can do, one has only a month to do a game book. A book can have 50 or 100 spells. Thinking out all of the ways to abuse these spells isn't obvious when you are trying to make them a little different. If I was looking at true strike as a model, wraithstrike doesn't seem too bad except for the swift action part. But the swift action mechnaic actually created many good spells and made things like ranger spell slots much more useful than they used to be. I think we need to look at the denominator -- there are about 10 bad spells in the Players handbook out of about maybe 300; not a terrible ratio. Even these bad spells often had either a type or an exploit; consider: Blasphemy requires pushing caster level in a way that game deisgners might not have put together and is probably the victim of typo being way better than Holy Word for equal CR Other spells look broken but are debatable. I think that Mage's Disjunction is quite balanced as the pinnacle anti-buffing spell. It is nasty but I've played with previous editions of wish. Oh, and I consider it a game design flaw that losing your stuff can hurt more than death (and wail of the banshee is a very effective killing spell at that level). Now, you have the strange spells like Evard's Black Tentacles. It has the same diagnostic criterion as Miasma had (unerrated). A spell so bad that people develop counterspells entirely based around encountering it. Even these spells, while amazing, rarely dominate BECAUSE people develop standard countermeasures (magic is well known in standard D&D; everybody will expect that they will see uinusually effective spells often). If you have shivering touch then you can expect that no Dragon will ever close to melee again . . .
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-12-05, 02:09 PM	I'm sorry, your worry about balance is coming from Troll Wizards? Troll Wizards are a common enough occurence that you feel that WotC should be specifically considering them as markers for balance? Dragons I can see as absolutely terrifying with Wraithstrike, sure, but Troll Wizards? With a -4 INT modifier? I'm using the troll as an exampleof the Rend mechanic and this spell. See also: Improved Grab, Rake, Impale, Constrict.
Shatteredtower 11-12-05, 06:37 PM	I'm using the troll as an exampleof the Rend mechanic and this spell. See also: Improved Grab, Rake, Impale, Constrict. And I will admit that such things deserve consideration in the spell design process, though I admit that the impale option is not coming to me at the moment. However, these are anomalies, not the rule. The intelligent feline species is an option, though I'd be more concerned with an oversight that neither of us will be surprised at if one should appear: that it will have a raking option and yet nothing will be said of how this interacts with footwear, especially of the magical variety. It should be common sense, but... well, we all know how meaningless that statement can be in discussing the rules, right? But what's the closest thing we have to intelligent felines in the game right now? Sphinxes and dragonnes. The latter even has the pounce ability, but not rake. Oh, wait, sorry. We also have to consider awakened felines. The tiger sorcerer certainly does well with increasing its chances of causing 4d8+18 plus 2d6+3 hp on that charge -- not as good as what the troll example does, but some might rate this only a CR 6 encounter (a CR 4 animal with four non-associated class levels), forgetting that this is a guideline that doesn't take the creature's intelligence into the equation. Pull this with an awakened dire tiger (theoretically a CR 10, but CR 12 is not unreasonable) and you're looking at 8d4+32 plus 2d6+4. But if you were looking at a feline race that played on par with humanoids, you probably wouldn't be looking at such generous Str modifiers or claw damage, not without a changing of the guard among game designers. (They have thus far been reluctant to pair the rake ability with high Strength and decent Intelligence, even taking steps to avoid it in Savage Species.) Improved grab and constriction doesn't work so well with wraithstrike, however, though a kraken isn't going to complain about being able to make that first hit -- or eight hits -- a lot easier. The grapple check itself, however, isn't affected by wraithstrike. The creature will also have a difficult time maintaining more than one grapple against a 13th-15th level party (that -20 on grapple checks is quite inconvenient, even against a wizard). But you know, these things are the freaks. They are most certainly the sort of thing a DM in a PC-killing mood can consider, but the real edge lies in the DM's hands. This is one of the areas in which the rules cannot tell you how to play things: you have to know your players and their characters. I once listened to a DM rage about his party because their rogue had no skill in finding traps -- and he'd based a generous amount of his adventure design around the need (rather than recommendation) that a group always have a trap-finder. It's a good idea, but if no one in the group wants to run that kind of rogue, the DM must adapt to it. That doesn't mean you can't ever use traps, but you have to shift the CR involved and know when something is just more than they can handle. It's the same with wraithstrike. Does anyone doubt that there are 8th level parties out there that would make breakfast out of that troll wizard or tiger sorcerer? If so, consider using this spell for that kind of encounter. Are you dealing with parties that wouldn't stand a chance with that combination? You might want to consider avoiding fights with trolls or tigers altogether at this point, then. Yes, I think the spell is excessive for 2nd level, that it should either be bumped a bit, or restricted to benefiting either a single attack or the use of a single weapon. I base that on how much more useful it is than true strike, which more than a few people have considered a very worthwhile addition to their arsenal, especially when it can be quickened. If the quickened version of true strike is inferior to wraithstrike as written, then I feel the difference between the two should probably be a bit wider than one spell level. Since I feel that difference is present often enough, I'd consider a 3rd level spell slot, possibly 4th, though as a 4th level slot, it's not very useful to anything but a caster built specifically to take advantage of it in the process of dealing massive damage. It's why I'd rather leave it at 2nd level and have it apply to a single attack. Applying it to a single weapon's use probably bumps it to 3rd -- it would still be practically a must-have spell for an assassin. But it's the sort of spell that I'd tinker with based on knowing my group, rather than on whether I consider the spell problematic. I may avoid it, or I might just avoid combining its use with certain creatures or encounters, as I would do with a number of other spells. For example, dispel magic and water breathing are two spells that need to be assessed when there's a chance of them intersecting. Using the former against creatures relying on the latter is practically a basic tactic, but I will give careful consideration before I make it a factor in an adventure where the party is unprepared to survive it -- even if I feel that they should have been.
Nightspirit 11-12-05, 07:06 PM	I'm the only one who think how devastating an eldritch knight become with that spell? :confused: That spell breaks the arcane spellcaster/warrior gish type builds, that is otherwise enough balanced...not to mention that if I'm a wizard of a level high enough to cast a persistent wraithstrike, I don't want and don't really need something like the eldritch knight or similar PrCs to go in melee and deal an insane amount of damage....
MysteryGilgamesh 11-12-05, 07:11 PM	That spell breaks the arcane spellcaster/warrior gish type builds, that is otherwise enough balanced...not to mention that if I'm a wizard of a level high enough to cast a persistent wraithstrike Breaks a warrior/spellcaster build? No. They traditionally have high enough strength and BAB that they'll be hitting you anyway. Breaks Persistant? Well, Persistant seems to be the problem, here. Simply put, Persistant is a feat that is either ultimately useless, or incrediably overpowered, depending how it's utilized. The problem in this case isn't Wraithstrike-It's that Persistant can give you a full day of Wraithstrike.
Nightspirit 11-13-05, 04:11 AM	Breaks a warrior/spellcaster build? No. They traditionally have high enough strength and BAB that they'll be hitting you anyway. It's not the fact that they don't need wraithstrike to hit. With wraithstrike, they can use their full BaB on power attack, and still hit with all their attacks... Breaks Persistant? Well, Persistant seems to be the problem, here. Simply put, Persistant is a feat that is either ultimately useless, or incrediably overpowered, depending how it's utilized. The problem in this case isn't Wraithstrike-It's that Persistant can give you a full day of Wraithstrike. I see it in a different way: persistent spell comes out long before wraithstrike. Those who create this spell would have to think about a persistent wraithstrike, and how broken is it...simply making it a 4th level spell would be MUCH better balanced, than how already is...
smrtgmp 11-13-05, 07:03 AM	at lvl 10 the tentacles have +18 to grapple a lvl 10 barbarian might have about the same (50%/50%)A decent chance of success lvl 10 clerick,rogue or bard might have +9 (bab +7 str +2) (14%/86%)A 10th level cleric also has freedome of movement, and a 10th level rogue should have a decent escape artist check. lvl 10 sorcs and wizards even less typically +5 -> no chance at allYes, no chance at all. Except dimension door. For a time everybody that coud was walking around with freedom of movements, and stilled dimdoors. It was silly that everything had to be planned to work around single spell...What about other grapplers? Its not like those spells are only good against black tentacles. Freedom of Movement is such a good spell there isnt much of a reason not to prepare it if you have access to it. Though I'm not sure why you would still a dimension door, given that it has no somatic components. And since the spell cant pin you, there is no need for a silent dimension door. And I dont know about you, but I always have a dimension door available. Its crucial to survival when you're rolling d4's.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-13-05, 12:53 PM	Breaks a warrior/spellcaster build? No. They traditionally have high enough strength and BAB that they'll be hitting you anyway. Anything that can drop wraithstrike and has more than one attack in a round is broken by wraithstrike. Anything that gets bonuses based on how many times it hits is shattered by wraithstrike. Breaks Persistant? Well, Persistant seems to be the problem, here. Simply put, Persistant is a feat that is either ultimately useless, or incrediably overpowered, depending how it's utilized. The problem in this case isn't Wraithstrike-It's that Persistant can give you a full day of Wraithstrike. Persistant spell is to arcanists what Natural spell is to druids. A feat that should never have existed. Its another example, like wraithstrike, of bad design that should never have made it out of the door.
MysteryGilgamesh 11-13-05, 03:28 PM	Anything that can drop wraithstrike and has more than one attack in a round is broken by wraithstrike. Anything that gets bonuses based on how many times it hits is shattered by wraithstrike. Persistant spell is to arcanists what Natural spell is to druids. A feat that should never have existed. Its another example, like wraithstrike, of bad design that should never have made it out of the door. 1: Wrong. Blanket statements don't make you correct. Wraithstrike could probably stand to be bumped up to 3rd level, but just using it doesn't "break" anything. There are so many ways to stop physical attacks and magic use, it's not even funny. 2: Wrong. Persistant spell is best in a clerics hands, due to Divine Metamagic letting them walk around as veritable Gods. Natural Spell is also a perfectly fine feat. Being able to cast in wildshape is not some giant, uber advantage. It's perfectly in line for a feat, and frankly, too many people cry "broken" at everything these days.
Moon-Lancer 11-13-05, 03:57 PM	oh no... OH GOD i droped my players handbook and IT BROKE!!!! Persistent isnt too broken. the cleric combo is takes 3 feats to get persistent spell. Improved grapple and trip only take two feats. with three feats, one can get Spirited Charge. Not too shabby. what is broken i think, is those night sticks in lib mort that let you get more turning attempts, and lets you gain the benefit merely by owning the night sticks (in your bag) pluse they stack, soo i think its those items that break persistent clerics. Remember, dispel is your best friend. I think any one trick pony that can be ruined for the rest of the day by a single dispel isnt too bad. Now cheater of mysteria is different. That’s broken. So this is about spells right? Um Venom fire with a flesh racker (serpent kingdoms) umm and quill blast (complete divine) Those are BROKEN. With ALL Capps my friends. The writers of those spells obviously don’t know what the word balance means if it hit them with a giant rock (alluding to hulking hurler). most of d&d's writers are good at making the new books useful but not over powered (too much).
Nightspirit 11-13-05, 05:04 PM	Persistent isnt too broken. the cleric combo is takes 3 feats to get persistent spell. 3 feats that a cleric want to take anyway, 'cause are probably the 3 most useful feats for a cleric... I agree, peristent spell isn't broken. It's divine metamagic that is broken, when combined with high cha scores, or those stupid rods of nightstick... Um Venom fire with a flesh racker (serpent kingdoms) umm and quill blast (complete divine) Those are BROKEN. With ALL Capps my friends. The writers of those spells obviously don’t know what the word balance means if it hit them with a giant rock (alluding to hulking hurler). most of d&d's writers are good at making the new books useful but not over powered (too much). Actually I think that the persons who wrote serpent kingdoms are total, ultimate munchkins...just take a look at that book: sarrukh, nagahydra, venofire, spit venom...
LaoKhanWei 11-13-05, 05:55 PM	This is the one we have had most problerms with, to the extent that we now have a deal that neither players nor dm's will use it... at lvl 10 the tentacles have +18 to grapple a lvl 10 barbarian might have about the same (50%/50%) lvl 10 clerick,rogue or bard might have +9 (bab +7 str +2) (14%/86%) lvl 10 sorcs and wizards even less typically +5 -> no chance at all so chances of getting out of there are pretty slim for most of characters classes. The spell has no save, no SR and they automatically hit, thus going around even the normal (very slight) grapple obstacles. For a time everybody that coud was walking around with freedom of movements, and stilled dimdoors. It was silly that everything had to be planned to work around single spell... Same is true of Solid Fog. Except there is no defense against it aside from preparing specific spells. You can't just break out with sheer strength, you're totally at their mercy unless you're a spellcaster with dimension door, teleport or something of the like. So unless they have a specific counteractive spell prepared they automatically win the fight. That's broken in my book.
Shatteredtower 11-13-05, 07:38 PM	Anything that can drop wraithstrike and has more than one attack in a round is broken by wraithstrike.Severe overstatement. A badger with wraithstrike would not be especially terrifying at 3rd level, nor would a 12th level sorcerer's two attacks. Anything that gets bonuses based on how many times it hits is shattered by wraithstrike.This would be a creature capable of raking, such as a housecat or lion, or rending, such as the troll noted earlier. It would also include such recipients of the sadism spell. And, of course, it also includes Power Attack. I believe all of these are overstated. Some of them will become more impressive, no question, but even the troll wizard example remains within the ranks of a CR 8 encounter. Why do I say this? It's because it's doing no more damage than a CR 5 troll is capable of dishing out on a lucky round -- defined as a round in which both claws hit. The best armor in the world at that level, measured in terms of AC bonus, is going to be full plate +1 and heavy shield +1 -- coupled with a 12 Dex and a ring of protection +1, you're looking at AC 24, which means the troll hits you only one time in four with each swing and gets that rend one time in eight. Now if you're a dwarf, said troll is looking at only hitting you one time in ten, and that rending is getting closer to a 1% chance. But a lot of tanks seem to prefer a +1 breastplate and a magic two-handed weapon -- and maybe enough left in the budget for a magic ranged weapon. We're cutting the AC down to around 18 now, when each claw hits 60% of the time, with about a one in three chance of taking rending damage. Now that's at 5th level, but based on the general guidelines for encounters, a troll would make an acceptable major encounter for a 3rd level party, just as that wizard troll with wraithstrike would be an acceptable foe for a 6th level party. Which of those two encounters is more likely to result in a TPK? The majority of 6th level characters have the means of surviving the average damage from a full set of (successful) attacks plus rend from a troll once. Most 3rd level types can't -- and it's pretty iffy for the barbarians and dwarf fighters. Any preparations that might carry the day for the 3rd level group will certainly be just as effective for the 6th level group, but the former otherwise would need luck a lot more than the latter will. But let's go back to the troll wizard. The real concern is that this fellow can increase more than triple its chances of scoring a full set of attacks on an enemy, and no upgrades to armor and natural armor between 6th and 8th level are going to help you. Again, however, fights against bruisers call for more solid defensive tactics, such as concealment, which is something your party has better access to than the 3rd level group did, and should be able to acquire more freely at 8th than 6th level. You've got the option of fighting defensively. What, you don't want to take that -4 attack penalty? What, you don't think you can hit AC 18 (or 22, assuming mage armor) with little effort at 8th level? Maybe it feels like overkill to your heavily armored dwarf with the shield and the waraxe, but he's already looking at a base AC of 16 against the troll -- so it hits him 75% of the time and scores a rend just over half the time. Yeah, that's going to be a shock, but he'll survive it -- and what's the troll got lined up for round 2? Meanwhile, the rogue, fighting defensively and tumbling, he's looking at around... what, AC 18 at least? The troll has just over a 40% chance of rending him, or just over 35% if he's got Dodge, and less if he happens to be the sort to use Combat Expertise with a focus on providing his fighter buddy with a flanking bonus. Now is this going to take up more than a quarter of an 8th level party's resources? Yes, it might very well do that, but I don't see it as a given, even if it's carrying scrolls of resist energy. Really, it's not that much more dangerous than the 3rd level troll fighter that replaces its basic feats with Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave, opts for Combat Reflexes, Improved Sunder, and Weapon Focus (scythe), then gets itself a +1 weapon and a couple of potions to protect it from fire and acid. By the core book recommendations, that's a +16 on the first attack with the scythe, followed up by +11 and +10 for the bite. Damage on a successful strike is 2d6+13 (or 1d6+4 for the bite). Sounds a lot less troubling, doesn't it? Now ask yourself what happens if the troll assigns 2 points to Power Attack, charges, and scores a critical. Yes, there's less than a 5% chance of that happening. Our dwarf only gets hit on a roll of 12 or better anyway, so it's about a 2% chance for him, but he's the extreme end of the scale, so we're looking at a 2-5% chance of someone taking 8d6+68 hp of damage. If that possibility, completely permissisble by the core rules, does not strike you in any way as daunting, I'm not sure you should worry overly much about a troll that can lash out at you with wraithstrike once per melee. Yes, the wizard is nearly certain to put a serious dent in one of your party members, but they've all got a better chance of surviving that dent. Blur is more likely to be a factor against multiple attacks, and wraithstrike is one of those few spells that stands up poorly against a lesser globe of invulnerability. (I admit that the latter spell isn't likely to be cast when you're facing a troll, but if you've got reason to know you'll face a troll spellcaster, it may be a different story. Should this be a random encounter or should the party have had a chance to research this monstrosity they'll be facing?) Persistant spell is to arcanists what Natural spell is to druids. A feat that should never have existed. Its another example, like wraithstrike, of bad design that should never have made it out of the door.Overstated on all counts, despite issues I have with all three. I'll agree that they could all do toning down (to put it mildly for the feats), but the ideas themselves aren't entirely without merit. When it comes to feats, spells, and monsters, I prefer for my designers to be a bit overenthusiastic. It's easier for me to leave things out or adjust them to taste than it is to create it all to the system myself. (Things such as the alignment system, for example.) I've got no issue with solid fog. From inside, you've got total concealment, and a double move carries you 10 feet, which means the exit is always two rounds away. Sure, a sorcerer can keep casting it and keep lobbing other spells in after it, but he's firing blind. The tactic can backfire on you, sometimes even without magic. For example, a rogue or a character with a tower shield is pretty well equipped to endure anything you throw at them while the fog lasts, because you can't target them any more. It costs them nothing to sit and bleed you dry of spells. Rogues and monks might even do okay with firing blindly out of the cloud at you! (It's a slim chance, especially if you keep moving, but even that isn't always proof against counterattack. Unless you're a sorcerer, you're not going to have that many silent spells ready to fire off, and that rogue is going to pinpoint you every once in a while. And if you're a sorcerer, you're burning off higher level spell slots in hope that this barrage of attacks is actually hurting something you can't see.) Black tentacles? Your arcane spellcaster wants to have evasive magic by this level, and doesn't need to move to cast dimension door on adjacent allies. That cleric is looking at two chances to escape each round, each in place of an attack, assuming no free action, while a rogue either gets two opposed grapple checks or two Escape Artist checks (you don't need to take a standard action for this purpose). Warrior types are doing a lot better in this regard. Even so, I'd have preferred for this spell to need to make a melee touch attack to establish a grapple. That one little adjustment would make a world of difference between its usefulness against most higher level opponents. I know people lament the fact that magic nearly always seems to require magic to counter it, but it's hard to believe that a spellcaster will toil to devise greater magical abilities that anyone (including a high level commoner) can eventually overcome by mundane methods. A magic system that doesn't allow for flying just seems a bit off to me, but not as off as the notion that every monster I'll face can either use a composite longbow or fly as well -- even the oozes and hydras.
smrtgmp 11-14-05, 03:29 AM	...and frankly, too many people cry "broken" at everything these days.Here here. Same is true of Solid Fog. Except there is no defense against it aside from preparing specific spells. You can't just break out with sheer strength, you're totally at their mercy unless you're a spellcaster with dimension door, teleport or something of the like. So unless they have a specific counteractive spell prepared they automatically win the fight. That's broken in my book.You can get out of the area with a double move, which means if you focus on escaping you're out in one round. How is that broken? Or are you referring to the contrived scenario you presented in the other thread?
bossloki 11-14-05, 01:21 PM	I can't believe noone has mentioned Kiss of the Vampire. Granted it has a short duration and can't (normally) be made persistent, but it gives you a host of abilities: One of which is Vampiric touch as a supernatural touch attack. A 12th level Sor/Wiz gets two attacks a round and does 6d6 damage with each. Since it is a SU ability SR doesn't apply. And even if the temp HPs don't stack (not sure about that) the caster is constantly renewing them. This can make the frail mage the parties meat shield.
MindWandererB 11-14-05, 05:22 PM	What about the various vigor spells? None of my players have tried using these yet, but they seem pretty dang powerful. Sure, they're not so useful during combat, but as a method of recovering between fights, they're absolutely massive.
smrtgmp 11-14-05, 05:46 PM	Yes, lesser vigor wands are great for inbetween combat healing. However, I dont really see this as a problem, given how easy it is to do this already. After all, the market price for a wand of CLW is only 750gp, which is practically nothing at mid levels and beyond, especially when the party pools their resources.
Rogue Newb 11-14-05, 05:54 PM	You wanna know the best part of wraithstrike goodness? A Sor9/ftr1/EK10 can give up one of his level 9 spell slots and deliver all attacks as touch for ever. Yeah. You may wonder how he gets access to the spell? Extra Spell. A feat that itself allows whole new realms of broken.
smrtgmp 11-14-05, 06:19 PM	You wanna know the best part of wraithstrike goodness? A Sor9/ftr1/EK10 can give up one of his level 9 spell slots and deliver all attacks as touch for ever. Yeah. You may wonder how he gets access to the spell? Extra Spell. A feat that itself allows whole new realms of broken.Um, you realize its a wizard spell to begin with, right? No Extra Spell needed. And Extra Spell is far from broken. Whats so bad about trading a feat for access to a single spell? BTW-thats a crappy gish build, given that the BAB is less than +16
mane 11-15-05, 04:11 PM	Same is true of Solid Fog. Except there is no defense against it aside from preparing specific spells. You can't just break out with sheer strength, you're totally at their mercy unless you're a spellcaster with dimension door, teleport or something of the like. So unless they have a specific counteractive spell prepared they automatically win the fight. That's broken in my book. You can get out of there slowly in any case, and solid fog doesn't deal damage and you can cast spells in it / out of it without having to make grapple check etc. The visibility loss works bothways. So I dont think you are totally at their mercy.
mane 11-15-05, 04:34 PM	A decent chance of success A 10th level cleric also has freedome of movement It doesnt last all day... And if you don't cast it early enough it's too late when you are allready in tentacles. and a 10th level rogue should have a decent escape artist check. Seems like ours didn't have nearly enough... Yes, no chance at all. Except dimension door. yup how many of those have you prepared we started seeing evards 2 - 3 times per day... What about other grapplers? Its not like those spells are only good against black tentacles. Yep now in a different higher level campaign even our fighter doesn't go anywhere near big creatures without freedom of movement... Actually I think the grapple system is a bit brokenish. But maybe i have just been traumatized. ;) Freedom of Movement is such a good spell there isnt much of a reason not to prepare it if you have access to it. Though I'm not sure why you would still a dimension door, given that it has no somatic components. And since the spell cant pin you, there is no need for a silent dimension door. Hey you are correct, I havent been playing mage/sorc so i didn't look that close to it. And I dont know about you, but I always have a dimension door available. Its crucial to survival when you're rolling d4's. Yup but then it comes down to numbers.
smrtgmp 11-15-05, 05:13 PM	It doesnt last all day... And if you don't cast it early enough it's too late when you are allready in tentacles.Not really. All you need to do to cast in a grapple is succeed on a relatively easy concentration check. By the time you're capabel of casting 4th level spells, the check's really not that hard to make. In fact, the DC to cast a 4th level spell in a grapple is 19. At 7th level, you will most likely have 10 ranks, and your average cleric has a decent con, meaning you're probably looking at +12 or higher concentration check, which means you only fail on a 6 or lower. That gives you a 70% chance of getting the spell off, which puts the odds in your favor. Seems like ours didn't have nearly enough... Thats a shame. Hope he learned his lesson. ;) yup how many of those have you prepared we started seeing evards 2 - 3 times per day...What kind of world are you playing in where there are that many spellcasters? Wizards and sorcerers make up only a tiny percentage of the global population. But for the record, I always keep at least one on hand at all times. I also invest heavily in pearls of power, meaning I can recall the spell after a fight. Its not an issue for sorcerers, as they can cast it to their hearts content, assuming they have any 4th level slots still available. Finally, any airborn mage has nothing to fear from this spell provided they are more than 10ft from any surface. Yep now in a different higher level campaign even our fighter doesn't go anywhere near big creatures without freedom of movement... Actually I think the grapple system is a bit brokenish. But maybe i have just been traumatized. ;) Yeah, grappling is nasty. I dont blame your fighter one bit. He might want to invest in some spiked armor as well as something of a deterant. Once I can affor it, I like to add the wounding property to my armor spikes. Con damage will usually make something think twice about grappling you.
mane 11-15-05, 10:38 PM	Not really. All you need to do to cast in a grapple is succeed on a relatively easy concentration check. By the time you're capabel of casting 4th level spells, the check's really not that hard to make. Uhum at least my PHB says that you can only cast spells while grappled if they do not have somatic components, casting time is 1 std action or less and you have the material components at hand... Freedom of movement: V,S,M,DF In fact, the DC to cast a 4th level spell in a grapple is 19. Actually in grapple it is 24... so 45% chance with +12 and you lose the spell if you fail ... So that check is not that easy for the mage with dimdoor, cleric, bards etc can't even try with freedom of movement. Stilled freedom of movement would help cleric. At 7th level, you will most likely have 10 ranks, and your average cleric has a decent con, meaning you're probably looking at +12 or higher concentration check, which means you only fail on a 6 or lower. That gives you a 70% chance of getting the spell off, which puts the odds in your favor. What kind of world are you playing in where there are that many spellcasters? Wizards and sorcerers make up only a tiny percentage of the global population. FR I think there were one sorc and one wizard in the complex we were in. But for the record, I always keep at least one on hand at all times. I also invest heavily in pearls of power, meaning I can recall the spell after a fight. pearls are nice though the 4th level one is quite expensive Finally, any airborn mage has nothing to fear from this spell provided they are more than 10ft from any surface Short duration is quite a drawback for this one.
Alienfreak 11-16-05, 05:41 AM	My canidates are: Burning Blood (CA): 2d8 damage per round and limited to a single action per round (fort save every round; on success no damage that round and not only a single action) That one is really questionable. Okay ... its damage over time and 4th level, so its not that powereful. But especially agains low fort types (wizards) this thing will really rock his butt. And if he cant dispell it on himself it does a maximum of 14d8 damage (at 7th level) Elation (BoED): +2 Dex and Str, +5ft movement for all in 80ft radius. As a morale bonus on 2nd level? Yeah right ... And i agree on Bands of steel and many others ...
Timlagor 11-26-05, 01:46 AM	Burning Blood is certainly one of my favourites -you forgot to mention that it's medium range :). Tag-Team it with Unluck to make sure he never gets to cast that dispel Not sure that it's actually broken though.
FearzThug 11-26-05, 02:31 AM	I think I missed the place where it is explained how the following are broken. Entangle, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Fire Seeds, Holy Word and co, Miracle. Celestial Brilliance. 4) Web. 5) Wall of Stone wieldskill, divine insight, voice of the dragon If someone could take a moment of his time and explains why these are broken, I would really appreciate it.
smrtgmp 11-26-05, 02:37 AM	Holy Word and its derivitives get really ugly when combined with the various methods of boosting CL. If you can get your CL high enough, you'll kill all enemies in the area with no save, which most (myself included) find to be rather broken. I added a save to the spells and havent had a problem with them since.
Timlagor 11-26-05, 03:30 AM	I think I missed the place where it is explained how the following are broken. Entangle, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Fire Seeds, Holy Word and co, Miracle. Celestial Brilliance. 4) Web. 5) Wall of Stone wieldskill, divine insight, voice of the dragon I don't know all of those and some of them simply aren't broken. Entangle is an extremely large are and extremely powerful for it's level. It can and does turn battles even at medium levels. I believe Fire Seeds is lots of damage with no SR and possibly no save: overpowerful perhaps... Righteous Might: well many round/level spells are broken once DM(persistant) gets hold of them. Some of us find it irritating that a Cleric can out-fight a Fighter but... Miracle can do anything the DM lets it. Holy Word has already been explained and that one really is broken because Clerics can boost their CL so many ways.
DMJoe 11-26-05, 04:21 AM	Force Cage No Spell Resistance. No Save. Sure you get one spell resist check to see if you can escape but fail that, and its over. You can use it to make a box with no walls which could imply automatically sufficating your target. It lasts long enough to butcher someone if you use the force bars effect. You can pelt them with long range spells from 800 feet away while they lay in a box and lose. :weep:
Morrowner 11-26-05, 03:20 PM	Ray of Enfeeblement stinks, Cripple from World of Warcraft is where it is at. Its only 1 level higher than Ray of Enfeeblement but no touch attack and it casts Slow on a guy. Hit somebody with a Cripple at early levels(4-6) and its their butt in a sling.
smrtgmp 11-26-05, 04:32 PM	Force cage is rather powerful, but I dont know if I would call it broken. After all, it is a 7th level spell, and a costly one at that.
Alamanther's comeback 11-27-05, 11:36 AM	I've been perusing this thread with much interest... It seems that many of the spells that may be considered overpowered (I hate the term broken) are done so because they can be combined with specific feats, class abilities, and other spells in a particularly advantageous manner... I don't mind the fact that certain combos are more useful than others, even vastly more so, because players should be rewarded for cleverly built characters. However, it has struck me that of all the combos you guys mentioned, the devastating harm has not been mentioned once. The cleric who takes hierophant as his 14th and 15th levels, choosing Spell-like Ability (inflict critical wounds) as his first hierophant power and Divine Reach as his second hierophant power, as well as selecting Quicken Spell-like Ability (inflict critical wounds) at level 15 can wipe out most other level 15 characters in a single round without even having to face them in melee... Sure, a wizard, sorcerer, or bard should be able to make both Will saves, but that just means 75 points of damage (harm) plus 16 points of damage (inflict critical wounds) - and that's a total of 91 hit points, more than most level 15 members of those classes have! The fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian or rogue subjected to the same tactic is likely to fail at least one save, and the rogue will be particularly hard pressed to suck up all that negative energy damage and just say "thank you, sir, may I have another?". As a DM, I never excluded spells because I thought them too powerful (though I only allowed official WotC material in my campaign). I merely plotted around them, so the players wouldn't be able to rely on just one devastating ability. Every class has some strength that can be exploited, and the squishy wizards and sorcerers certainly pay for their super powers, more so than the cleric, who, IMO, doesn't really have any major weaknesses.
Lofnazareth 11-30-05, 12:13 PM	Ok, I understand that some of these spells are broken but often their obscurity or the level of prefabrication required seem to detract from their brokeness for me. My nomination would have to be "Rope Trick." Is this really the second-level "get out of jail free card for you and your entire party", that I think it is? Or am I misinterpreting it? Lofnazareth
MysteryGilgamesh 11-30-05, 01:48 PM	My nomination would have to be "Rope Trick." Is this really the second-level "get out of jail free card for you and your entire party", that I think it is? Or am I misinterpreting it? "Get out of jail free"? If by that, you mean "A safe place to rest", then yes, it is. Which is all it is. A safe resting spot, so those goblins won't CDG you in the night because the guy on watch blew his Spot and Listen checks. Broken? Not at all. Remember: The entire party gets a free rest with this thing, but so do the monsters. Imagine their surprise when they clamber down from the rope the next morning and find themselves surrounded by those industrious, well prepared creatures and all of their buddies they can find.
Lofnazareth 12-06-05, 12:47 AM	Fair enough Gilga, but we have been using it as an uber-flee tactic of last resort, sort of like climbing up a tree that no-one can follow you up. Find yourself severely outnumbered? No healing left? Something went horribly wrong? No worries, up the rope we go. Perhaps our DM is being overly kind but few enemies seem prepared to sit and wait beneath the mysetious patch of sky that those pesky adventrers disappeared to. Or at least not for over an hour with no sight of us. This spell has single-handedly saved our entire party more than once - not bad for a second level spell (especially as it is core and it doesn't rely on obscure feats or arcane combinations). Lofnazareth
Timlagor 12-06-05, 06:57 PM	It should be noted that the only thing preventing your enemies coming right in after you is that there is no rope to erach the 'window' with (and it's invivisble but, if they saw where you went, they could find it by touch in time)
Taliesin52 12-06-05, 07:18 PM	Since it hasn't been said in a few pages: Quill Blast This is especially true when you combine it with a wizard being able to cast it (there are several ways to get it on your spell list). Follow up with save/die spells and it's insane.
MindWandererB 12-06-05, 09:41 PM	With Spell Compendium now out, a lot of these spells are now fixed, Quill Blast among them. Lacking the book, I can't say anything more, but it's time to let this thread die a peaceful death.
GypsyComet 12-06-05, 11:38 PM	Dunno if the Spell Compendium really fixed everything or not. It left Arrow Mind and Hunter's Mercy untouched, after all...
bave 12-07-05, 10:38 AM	Spell compendium broke more than it fixed.
MysteryGilgamesh 12-07-05, 12:45 PM	Spell compendium broke more than it fixed. Wonderful. An opinion with absolutely no fact tacked onto it, throw in completely at random. How about citing some examples of what you find "broken"? The internet be a harsh mistress, yaar. Methinks she should replace Ulistree (sp) as thae ***** o'thae sea! And on the Hunter's Mercy note...Yeah. It wasn't "fixed", because thats how it's supposed to be. You'll note that many pally and ranger spells are usually better for their level than other spells of similar levels. It's how they work, and a single crit (of which you've gotta take a round out to cast the spell, first) won't matter much in the long run.
bave 12-07-05, 01:06 PM	Wonderful. An opinion with absolutely no fact tacked onto it, throw in completely at random. How about citing some examples of what you find "broken"? The internet be a harsh mistress, yaar. Methinks she should replace Ulistree (sp) as thae ***** o'thae sea! And on the Hunter's Mercy note...Yeah. It wasn't "fixed", because thats how it's supposed to be. You'll note that many pally and ranger spells are usually better for their level than other spells of similar levels. It's how they work, and a single crit (of which you've gotta take a round out to cast the spell, first) won't matter much in the long run. Buy the book, get the facts, rather than ask someone to type the whole thing out.
MysteryGilgamesh 12-07-05, 01:13 PM	Buy the book, get the facts, rather than ask someone to type the whole thing out. ...What? I didn't ask anyone to type anything out. o_O
Alienfreak 12-07-05, 01:23 PM	Its not forbidden to say "xxx is forbidden because it deals 10x10^10 d6 of typeless damage and its only 7."
Lofnazareth 12-08-05, 04:52 AM	Ok Gligamesh/Timlagor, but how many low level enemies in your campaign have ranks in spellcraft or knowledge(arcana)? Would you bother getting your entire "industrious" clan together to wait under a patch of sky where some adventurer's disappeared hours ago, in the faint hope that they might miraculously and covieniently re-emerge? I didn't think so. Rope trick is more effective when enemies do not have the advantage of an inexpert DM's (often inadvertent) metagaming. Lofnazareth
fukachu 12-09-05, 01:39 AM	I am a goblin, a group of adventurers disappear into the sky in front of me. I think "they got away those dastardly curs! Ok, collect our dead we're eating well tonight." In the same way that if a high level enemy disappears, do you assume teleport? I sure would and I wouldn't hang about where they last saw me as there is a good chance they'll teleport back with friends. To assume(know) they'll be back or act accordingly is unrealistic. The obvious retort to the above is: anyone who has a teleport spell should murder the goblins, assume the encounter happens in a bad set of circumstances. E.g many wounded party members, low on spells, 7th or 8th encounter for the day(But their should only be 4, mmm I love the smell of linear in the morning) etc. So it is possible for powerful parties to want to escape lowly enemies, and accordingly it is possible for lowly enemies to believe more powerful foes would on occasion flee them. Thus it is more than possible for relatively weak parties to be assumed to be more powerful than they are and using any number of a plethora of spells to escape, and as the spelss manifest in a visual fashion according to the caster they can often look very different. So effectively, short of accidental metagaming the goblins have no way of knowing how powerful a pc or the party is, and thus what course of action to take, beyond that of the logical: least resistence. I am a goblin, a group of adventurers disapear into the sky in front of me. I think "they got away those dastardly curs! Ok, collect our..................."
Broken vacuum 12-09-05, 04:46 AM	I am a goblin, a group of adventurers disappear into the sky in front of me. I think "they got away those dastardly curs! Ok, collect our dead we're eating well tonight." In the same way that if a high level enemy disappears, do you assume teleport? I sure would and I wouldn't hang about where they last saw me as there is a good chance they'll teleport back with friends. To assume(know) they'll be back or act accordingly is unrealistic. The obvious retort to the above is: anyone who has a teleport spell should murder the goblins, assume the encounter happens in a bad set of circumstances. E.g many wounded party members, low on spells, 7th or 8th encounter for the day(But their should only be 4, mmm I love the smell of linear in the morning) etc. So it is possible for powerful parties to want to escape lowly enemies, and accordingly it is possible for lowly enemies to believe more powerful foes would on occasion flee them. Thus it is more than possible for relatively weak parties to be assumed to be more powerful than they are and using any number of a plethora of spells to escape, and as the spelss manifest in a visual fashion according to the caster they can often look very different. So effectively, short of accidental metagaming the goblins have no way of knowing how powerful a pc or the party is, and thus what course of action to take, beyond that of the logical: least resistence. I am a goblin, a group of adventurers disapear into the sky in front of me. I think "they got away those dastardly curs! Ok, collect our..................." This does not really hold up very well. I am not saying that opponents should never reason in this way, but neither should they always do it. If the creature knows about teleport, why not rope trick? It is a lower level spell and as such probably sees much more use. As for considerations in the line of "they might be really powerful, but for some reason they are not right now", that applies before attacking as well as after. Being able to make the party flee can be seen as a confirmation that the party is weak. Your goblin might as well go: "Ok, the dastardly curs got away, when they get back we will concentrate on killing that arm-waving type in a dress first, as those types usually are to blame for these kinds of things." Especially if it happens to have an intelligence point or two above normal, or if it has experienced something alike previously. Again, I am not suggesting that this happens every time and it should never happen with adversaries of no more than animal intelligence, but it remains a possibility with more intelligent opponents.
Jesper 12-09-05, 09:00 AM	My vote goes for magic missle
Raven Dark 12-09-05, 09:38 AM	Spell compendium broke more than it fixed. I beg to differ (I own the book). It's true that there are still a few broken spells therein (after all there are over a thousand spells), but the designers brought so many more spells back into line. At worst, the few (and I stress few) broken spells in Spell Compendium are broken because they weren't changed from their previous versions--not because the new book somehow broke them. Wraithstrike is one example. Insofar as I can tell, it is exactly as it used to be.
sculior 12-09-05, 09:48 AM	Of all the spells printed, and I have no idea how many there are, we can find how many that are truly unbalancing? The spell compendium fixed some of them, and brought in spells from some submitted sources, that is to say people like us on message boards. I'm not saying there arn't any broken spells, but given the total number it really isn't like they are printing crap to ruin your game every time you turn around. Some stuff falls through the cracks, and whoever is responsible should be fired, but DMs can handle the few that get away from wotc. Maybe I'm wrong, but I havn't had any over powered spell casters in all my years DMing, and I've only had to cobash a few spells. If I may add one thing to the list however, it would be "anyspell, lesser" and "anyspell, greater". Both are in the new compendium and available as spells in a new domain, but allows a divine caster to cast any arcane spell of lesser or equal level, INTERCHANGABLE. That is to say they can pick a new arcane spell every day they prepare spells. This gives them access to one (or two if you can't both) arcane spell of their choice. I ruled you would have to pick the spell when obtaining the new domain lvl and stick with that choice for anyspell. *fixed*. All better and I didn't need wotc. Happy gaming
Egres 12-09-05, 10:27 AM	Enlarge Person. Cast on fighter. Instant +2 Strength (which negates the attack penalty) and now being large size (as well as equipment being large size) has not only reach, but close to doubled damage capacity. The only downside is a -1 to AC. Nope. It's a -2 to AC: -1 for the -2 to your Dex score, e -1 for the size increase.
justaworm 12-09-05, 03:53 PM	From the GM's standpoint, the only overpowered spell is the one you fail to use back on the party. ;)
Lord shadow35 12-11-05, 08:43 PM	I think shiverng touch is broken. I know you probobly think i'm crazy but i also think magic missile is broken. Forcecage is awesome but not broken.
Khelvaster 12-11-05, 09:05 PM	Just curious: With just the Core and Complete books, how does a Meleeist pump out 100 (or 50 or even 30) damage regularly? War hulk-need I say more? Dual-wielding greater invisibility rogue-massive sneak attack damage applying to large numbers of attacks
MADMURRAY 12-11-05, 11:00 PM	Shapechange is not broken, its a 9th level spell. Anyone capable of casting it, should enjoy its effects and not be stigmatized as using a cheap spell. Way worse spells include: 1.flame strike (ignoring fire protect spells and its damage for a spell of its level) 2.Destruction (its only 7th level and you make a saving throw or take 10d6 + its not elemental magic so not energy immunities nor protections from elements rings help you. Plus wizards should have better damage dealing spells and there counterpart "finger of death and its 3d6+1 per caster level is a poorman's substitute) 3.mirror image (it should be a level higher as it is awesome and, i believe, better than displacement which is a level higher) 4.THE MOST BROKEN SPELL IS HOLD PERSON THOUGH but it is broken in that it is too weak. In 2nd edition it worked on 4 people, in 3rd only 1 and only 1rd per level which was still good but in 3.5 someone decided that targets should get a save every rd, that is B.S. This spell has been nerfed. 5.color spray (used to be a good spell in 2nd ed now it sucks, why use it over sleep?)
Egres 12-12-05, 07:58 AM	1.flame strike (ignoring fire protect spells and its damage for a spell of its level) Only half damage is ignored.
allenchan 12-12-05, 08:03 AM	I just got the Spell Compendium, and I got to say Heroics seems pretty broken. 2nd level spell, gives you any Fighter feat you qualify for, 10min/level! Cast multiple times to have a whole feat chain. No need to have a Fighter ever again.
Fedifensor 12-15-05, 02:31 AM	Best spell for the level when dealing with the typical storebought D&D adventure? Evard's Black Tentacles. Just dig through your average module and see how many foes have a 50% chance or better to escape. Not many. And it slows people within it to 1/2 movement even if they do escape. And it doesn't block LoS for your arcane spellcaster. And the tentacles are immune to attack, so you can drop fireballs or other damaging AoE spells on your foes without a problem.
Alienfreak 12-15-05, 09:00 AM	Empyreal Ectasy (BoED) is in my eyes the most broken spell ever! It makes you suffer only half damage from ranged and melee attacks ... thats really ill minded.
Vedic Cold 12-15-05, 09:08 AM	5.color spray (used to be a good spell in 2nd ed now it sucks, why use it over sleep?) I tend to prefer color spray, actually, because unlike sleep, it can still affect targets with higher HD. The effect is lessened, in that they're only stunned for a round, but even as high as 10th level, being able to stun an enemey warrior/tank for a round, which makes him drop anything he's holding and vulnerable to a rogue's SA (I think, not sure on that one) as well as losing a full round's actions is very useful for a 1st level spell. And since it's a will save, it's going to have a pretty good chance of being effective against even mid-high level fighter-types. After 5th level or so, sleep does become all but useless.
malignor 12-15-05, 08:20 PM	Mirror Image is not overpowered. Face up against a melee opponent with Whirlwind Attack or Great Cleave, or a caster with any decent damaging area-effect spell (even a well-placed burning hands; a level 2 spell being outdone by a level 1, which still damages the caster) and you've successfully done nothing. Magic Missile isn't overpowered. Doing 10-25 damage, total, at 9th level isn't that bad. Try Burning hands, doing 5-20 to 6 squares at 5th level, potentially dishing out a total of 30-120 damage (if hitting 6 opponents, one in each square). Or Shocking Grasp, which can zap someone for 5-30 damage on a 5th level's touch attack. Take Improved Crit (touch attack) at a higher level and see how pleasant that can get (10% chance of doing lightning bolt damage). Evards Tentacles may seem big but it's not overpowered. It's a great way to take out the ground-bound casters, but Solid Fog (same level, same school) can negate a group, no matter how good the individuals are at grappling. Plus they can't see, which is a nice bonus. It also ignores SR (like Ev's) and works against flying creatures (which Ev's doesn't). My 4th level fave is Illusory wall, because 90% of folk can't tell the diff between that and the other wall spells (wall of ice, wall of stone, wall of iron... pick!) until you cast a ray or projectile spell through it... plus the utility of the spell for fortifications & making traps. Speaking of rays, as a Sorcerer, I might want Enervation instead, which has no save... pop off 1d4 levels per ray until they're just dead. Compared to Solid Fog or Enervation (or a mix of the two... ewwww), Ev's looks pretty useless when facing a group of giants. Plus I need not get into the joys of Polymorph (Hydra's are fun! Especially with Cold Touch! 7+ attacks of opp, each draining strength - convenient that the Hydra's heads increase with levels the same as number of cold touches, no? Don't forget to turn your familiar into a Hydra via share spells, too!), which is also a nice alternative. Heck... let's just throw all the 4th level spells together and call em GOOFY effective. Another one that I'm amazed I haven't seen (but I didn't scan for it that deeply) is Haste. Once you get it at 5th level, you can buff up 5 individuals... doubling their speed, giving them an extra attack and giving a bit of defensive edge to your entire party with one spell can be much more effective than a fireball. If you have a magic poor world and/or the group consists of predominantly fighting classes, this spell is a godsend. Other tasty ones are Ray of Enfeeblement with the Heighten Spell feat, or True Strike for a warrior/arcane mixed class using a 2-handed full-out Power Attack. In short, I think there are no broken spells. There are only nice tactics. Crying "broken" is bes after a careful look at the alternatives in the same level.
Fedifensor 12-15-05, 09:36 PM	Evards Tentacles may seem big but it's not overpowered. It's a great way to take out the ground-bound casters, but Solid Fog (same level, same school) can negate a group, no matter how good the individuals are at grappling. Plus they can't see, which is a nice bonus. It also ignores SR (like Ev's) and works against flying creatures (which Ev's doesn't). It takes out more than just casters, and can hold its targets longer than solid fog. Even with movement reduced to 5' and the target at the center of the cloud, two double moves will get the target out of the fog. That's assuming the targets don't have dimension door or similar transport spells - at least the tentacles force a concentration check. Blocking sight is a two-way street. I'd personally rather have my targets grappled but visible so they can be targeted easier. Also, since Evard's black tentacles can come from any surface and have a 10' reach, a flying creature may be in for quite a surprise. ...and I can't believe you used shocking grasp as an example of a spell more powerful than magic missile. Give me the force effect, automatic hit, and 100'+ range any day of the week. Melee range is a horrible place to be for a spellcaster.
malignor 12-16-05, 01:34 AM	It takes out more than just casters, and can hold its targets longer than solid fog. Even with movement reduced to 5' and the target at the center of the cloud, two double moves will get the target out of the fog. That's assuming the targets don't have dimension door or similar transport spells - at least the tentacles force a concentration check. Blocking sight is a two-way street. I'd personally rather have my targets grappled but visible so they can be targeted easier. Also, since Evard's black tentacles can come from any surface and have a 10' reach, a flying creature may be in for quite a surprise.Being able to target your foes is great, but targetted spells are just one blade in the caster's swiss army knife. Those two rounds you have can do all kinds of things that don't involve blasting the enemy (Polymorph+Chill Touch, for example... or greater invisibiliy), plus 2 movement rounds to get metter positioning. And I hope I don't need to remind you how weak Ev's is against giants or other large/huge creatures who rely on strength (and there are alot of em). Solid fog can incapacitate such foes, as it doesn't rely on trying to out-grapple them. ...and I can't believe you used shocking grasp as an example of a spell more powerful than magic missile. Give me the force effect, automatic hit, and 100'+ range any day of the week. Melee range is a horrible place to be for a spellcaster.I'm just saying that magic missiles do less damage than spells of the same level. In fact, there's a sorcerer in my group who uses shocking grasp all the time (usually while empowered with mirror image, polymorph and mage armor). I've found that you can build an arcane caster who thrives in melee. Next character I'm going to make will be a ranger/sorcerer who goes into eldritch knight after rgr4/src6. After running the numbers, I realized that I had a crazy powerful build. By 20th, he'll be a 15th level arcane caster, 1st level divine caster (ranger), have a +17BAB, a total of 4 extra feats (3 from ranger levels), a familiar and an animal companion. HP won't be stellar, but most of my spells will be powerup spells (and alot of non-somatic spells, so I can wear light armor with minimal problems). There's your counterexample to not wanting to be in melee.
allenchan 12-16-05, 02:06 AM	I'm just saying that magic missiles do less damage than spells of the same level. In fact, there's a sorcerer in my group who uses shocking grasp all the time (usually while empowered with mirror image, polymorph and mage armor). I've found that you can build an arcane caster who thrives in melee. Next character I'm going to make will be a ranger/sorcerer who goes into eldritch knight after rgr4/src6. After running the numbers, I realized that I had a crazy powerful build. By 20th, he'll be a 15th level arcane caster, 1st level divine caster (ranger), have a +17BAB, a total of 4 extra feats (3 from ranger levels), a familiar and an animal companion. HP won't be stellar, but most of my spells will be powerup spells (and alot of non-somatic spells, so I can wear light armor with minimal problems). There's your counterexample to not wanting to be in melee. No offense, but that build is -very- weak. I'd highly recommend heading over to the CO board and checking out some of the Gishes there.
Fedifensor 12-16-05, 02:33 AM	Being able to target your foes is great, but targetted spells are just one blade in the caster's swiss army knife. Those two rounds you have can do all kinds of things that don't involve blasting the enemy (Polymorph+Chill Touch, for example... or greater invisibiliy), plus 2 movement rounds to get metter positioning. Yes, that's a possibility. But unless I'm fighting foes with special defenses, those two rounds could also be used for things like empowered fireball, wall of fire (with the same radius as Evard's), or other spells that can end the combat quickly. Unless I'm fighting a single tough target (in which case AoE spells like Evard's aren't the best choice), few CR-appropriate creatures can stand up to an arcane spellcaster firing two or three rounds worth of his toughest spells (on top of the damage caused by the tentacles). And I hope I don't need to remind you how weak Ev's is against giants or other large/huge creatures who rely on strength (and there are alot of em). Solid fog can incapacitate such foes, as it doesn't rely on trying to out-grapple them. I wouldn't use the word 'incapacitate'. 'Delay' would be better. And no spell is perfect for every situation. My main problem with solid fog is that it hinders the caster as well as the foes, since you can't see through it. Heck, if you roll poorly on your Listen check, the bad guys could escape without you even knowing it. Evard's is very reliable against medium-sized creatures, and even large creatures will have some trouble. For example, an appropriate CR challenge for a small adventuring party at 8th level may be a group of trolls (+14 grapple check). The group's sorcerer will have a +15 grapple check with Evard's, which means a 50% chance for each troll to fail the grapple. Even those that succeed are reduced to half movement and have to get out of the area of effect quick, or else the tentacles will grapple them again. If you're fighting indoors, it's quite possible that the trolls can't get out of the area of effect without either retreating or cutting down your front line fighters. That's enough time to start using fireball or similar spells to take them down. Where Evard's really becomes effective is against medium or smaller creatures (and there's a lot more of them in D&D than large creatures). An equal level creature with an 18 strength and a fighter BAB is still down by 4 against the grapple check of the tentacles. If you're targeting people with cleric or wizard BAB, they're not going to get out without an amazing Escape Artist check or a good Concentration and a verbal-only transport spell like dimension door. I'm just saying that magic missiles do less damage than spells of the same level. In fact, there's a sorcerer in my group who uses shocking grasp all the time (usually while empowered with mirror image, polymorph and mage armor). I've found that you can build an arcane caster who thrives in melee. It's possible, but certainly not optimal - it's more of a specialty build that works due to the power of polymorph (which is another topic entirely). And you're focusing on a narrow level range - by 7th level, magic missile does nearly as much damage as shocking grasp without the host of disadvantages that come with it (melee range, elemental damage instead of force damage, to hit roll required). By 9th level, they have identical average damage, except that magic missile has an incredible 190 foot range. A ranged caster can also have the same defensive spells up that your melee caster has, and doesn't have to worry about fighters power attacking with two-handed weapons.
Fedifensor 12-16-05, 02:36 AM	No offense, but that build is -very- weak. I'd highly recommend heading over to the CO board and checking out some of the Gishes there. No offense, but not everyone uses gishes in their campaign. It's not a bad build for a core rules only game, though I'd rather have access to 9th level spells.
malignor 12-16-05, 09:52 AM	I'm not arguing that Ev's is weak or inferior to Solid Fog. I'm just saying that there are times to use Ev's and times when I would rather have a different spell. Since Evard's is only useful in situations where forcing a grapple check is helpful, there are times when SFog is more useful, or another 4th level spell entirely. With that in mind, I still don't see the evidence that Ev's is "broken". It's worthless against guys with freedom of movement, useless against incorporeal creatures, doesn't touch creatures flying more than 10' from the targetted surfacem and is not very effective against powerful grapplers. I agree that Ev's is useful alot of the time, and I think that's great... not overpowered. The same applied to magic missile. I agree it's a great combat spell; it has many advantages, especially in that it's useful against pretty much anything (unless their SR is too great; and it's useless against inanimate objects, but that's what the tank is for). But it's not the ultimate level 1 spell and certainly not broken. In light of the fact that there are 2 spells that can dish out more damage, magic missile just trades out damage for range. The lack of elemental damage is also a boon, but sometimes elemental damage is preferred (burning hands against fire-vulnerable creatures, for example). Magic missile is not any more broken than other damaging level 1 spells. As for the argument about special builds, I've noticed mentioning of "spell X is broken because you can mix it with with feat Y". Never mind the fact that to get "Feat Y" sometimes requires prereqs, and to get "spell X" also requires prereqs (level of caster, attribute like Int/Cha 14 for 4th arcane spells, etc.). That sounds like criteria for a build to me too... so I thought I'd share mine, which is pretty strong for a core build (and we only use core rules), especially when it has 2 critters that share spells... a familiar and a warhorse animal companion (and I'll take mounted combat feats). Makes spell combos like Polymorph + Mirror Image pretty attractive (3xRealHydraforms + 3xnumber of mirror images = a very busy battlefield). Add shocking grasp (or chill touch, or vampiric touch... etc) in the mix (5d6; can be delivered by self or familiar) and the first round can be pretty destructive.
Fedifensor 12-16-05, 10:53 AM	I'm not arguing that Ev's is weak or inferior to Solid Fog. I'm just saying that there are times to use Ev's and times when I would rather have a different spell. Since Evard's is only useful in situations where forcing a grapple check is helpful, there are times when SFog is more useful, or another 4th level spell entirely. Well, as someone who's currently playing a sorcerer with limited spell choices, I'd rather use my one pick for a 4th level spell on Evard's black tentacles than any other spell available at that level. Yes, it has some foes that are resistant to it. But when it does work, it ends fights really quick. With that in mind, I still don't see the evidence that Ev's is "broken". It's worthless against guys with freedom of movement Basically, people with a 40,000 gp ring or those who cast freedom of movement before Evard's is cast (since it has somantic components and can't be cast when grappled)? Not that common... useless against incorporeal creatures Just like solid fog, since incorporeal creatures will ignore the movement reduction. doesn't touch creatures flying more than 10' from the targetted surface Probably Evard's biggest weakness, though unless you're on an open, featureless plain it can be used as area denial. Heck, at higher levels, you can invest in that ring of freedom of movement and stand right in the middle of it. and is not very effective against powerful grapplers. I agree that Ev's is useful a lot of the time, and I think that's great... not overpowered. What is your definition of overpowered? You point to circumstances where Evard's doesn't work to prove it's not overpowered. But when it does work - and those times are more common than you indicate - it ends fights faster than any other AoE spell of that level or below. In light of the fact that there are 2 spells that can dish out more damage, magic missile just trades out damage for range. Range AND automatic hit AND remains effective against creatures with elemental resistance. Not to mention the special applications, such as negating a mirror image spell (area spells don't destroy the figments, but 5 missiles can destroy up to 5 images) or hitting incorporeal creatures. I'm not saying it's unbalanced...but it's definately better than shocking grasp. Add shocking grasp (or chill touch, or vampiric touch... etc) in the mix (5d6; can be delivered by self or familiar) and the first round can be pretty destructive. Except that if you have to cast three spells (polymorph + mirror image + shocking grasp), it's not the first round...it's the fourth round. All the spells you mention only last 1 minute/level (or for shocking grasp, until you touch something).
malignor 12-16-05, 11:42 AM	Well, as someone who's currently playing a sorcerer with limited spell choices, I'd rather use my one pick for a 4th level spell on Evard's black tentacles than any other spell available at that level. Yes, it has some foes that are resistant to it. But when it does work, it ends fights really quick.I suggest Polymorph. More universal application, both in and out of combat. There are a few more spells that work great against Ev's... - grease (L1; VSM; close range; 1 rnd/level; +10 escape artist) - enlarge person (L1; VSM; close range; 1 min/level; +5 grapples from size & strength) - bull's strength (L2; VSM; touch; 1 min/level; only gives +2 grapples from strength, but doesn't hurt) - gaseous form (L3; SM; touch; 2 min/level; completely negates Ev's) - polymorph (L4; VSM; touch; 1 min/level; a good choice would be Remorhaz, since most casters know about them [magical beast; 7HD], they have +16 to grapple, not including BAB and they can burrow their way out of the area... then swallow the offending caster whole) Interesting that none of these spells work against Solid Fog... except maybe polymorph to burrow under the cloud. Potions of enlarge, bull's strength and gaseous form exist, as would likely oil of grease. Some of these potions are pretty standard fare (enlarge & bull's strength for warriors; gasous form for rogues & casters). =MagicMissile= Magic missile negate a mirror image spell (area spells don't destroy the figments, but 5 missiles can destroy up to 5 images) as good as a well placed burning hands, and doesn't do as much damage to the real caster. If MM is definately better than shocking grasp, why even have SGrasp in L1 list? - totally deadly for sneak attacks (arcane trickster?) - does more damage (when facing creature who don't resist electricity... which is 90% of everything you'll ever fight) - lets your familiar do some damage (cast it, then continue fighting normally with the sacred magic missile; the 1st thing that goes after your familiar is in for a surprise) Except that if you have to cast three spells (polymorph + mirror image + shocking grasp), it's not the first round...it's the fourth round. All the spells you mention only last 1 minute/level (or for shocking grasp, until you touch something).Sorry, I meant first round of actual contact. Currently I'm playing a barbarian... I find the enemy usually has his hands full with me for the 1st round or two (or the druid, with his flam strike or entanglement). The sorcerer (already mage armored; 1 hr/level) casts mirror image round 1 (to survive), polymorph round 2 (usually wyvern, since the form allows spellcasting) and now & then when he has a round (like when closest foe just dropped) he casts shocking grasp so his (or his mage armored, mirror-imaged, wyvern-formed familiar's) next attack is devastating.
Fedifensor 12-16-05, 01:39 PM	I suggest Polymorph. More universal application, both in and out of combat. Only if you want to fight in melee. If you're staying at range, you're better off throwing a different spell at the start of the fight. I won't deny that it's a useful spell, but its benefits are generally either defensive or a boost to single-target offense. I'd rather cover an area with spells to end a fight quickly. There's a reason for the phrase "the best defense is a good offense", especially in D&D. There are a few more spells that work great against Ev's... - grease (L1; VSM; close range; 1 rnd/level; +10 escape artist) - enlarge person (L1; VSM; close range; 1 min/level; +5 grapples from size & strength) - bull's strength (L2; VSM; touch; 1 min/level; only gives +2 grapples from strength, but doesn't hurt) - gaseous form (L3; SM; touch; 2 min/level; completely negates Ev's) - polymorph (L4; VSM; touch; 1 min/level; a good choice would be Remorhaz, since most casters know about them [magical beast; 7HD], they have +16 to grapple, not including BAB and they can burrow their way out of the area... then swallow the offending caster whole) You keep ignoring the fact that you have to cast these spells BEFORE you're grappled by the tentacles. Every one of them has somantic components, which means they can't be cast in a grapple. Magic missile negate a mirror image spell (area spells don't destroy the figments, but 5 missiles can destroy up to 5 images) as good as a well placed burning hands, and doesn't do as much damage to the real caster. Burning hands is an area spell, and thus won't take out images. The figments react the same way the caster does to the damage, so you still can't tell which is which. If MM is definately better than shocking grasp, why even have SGrasp in L1 list? - totally deadly for sneak attacks (arcane trickster?) - does more damage (when facing creature who don't resist electricity... which is 90% of everything you'll ever fight) - lets your familiar do some damage (cast it, then continue fighting normally with the sacred magic missile; the 1st thing that goes after your familiar is in for a surprise) So, shocking grasp is better if a) you're a hybrid instead of a pure caster, b) if you're using loaded dice to roll max damage (since magic missile has identical average damage once you hit 9th, and a higher minimum damage), or c) if you're risking your familiar in melee (a good way to lose 200 XP per class level). Sorry, I'll stick with MM. Shocking grasp might be a good investment for a low-level wizard who is built for melee, but a sorcerer has to pick his spell selection for the long-term, and most wizards prefer to avoid melee range. Sorry, I meant first round of actual contact. Currently I'm playing a barbarian... I find the enemy usually has his hands full with me for the 1st round or two (or the druid, with his flam strike or entanglement). Generally, by the 3rd or 4th round, my group is in 'mop-up' mode. Of course, I also draw fire earlier, since my character is blasting the foes starting in round 1. But that's why I have a fighter front line to protect me.
malignor 12-16-05, 02:22 PM	== Polymorph == This is a matter of playing & building style. Despite our differences, I'm not claiming mine is better, but my "needing a resurrection" count is pretty darn low, as I'm sure yours is. So it's not about better vs. worse, it's about different style, and resulting preference. Other nice tricks for polymorph (for those interested) include turning your warrior friend into a huge monster (I just love hydras; 7+ attacks of opp, 10' reach, huge size, nice natural armor) or using Summon Monster to summon 1d4+1 things of 2 levels lower and keeping on next to you so you can polymorph it next round (just thought of that one; might have to suggest that to my sorc buddy). == Ev's Tentacles == That list of spells aint so bad when you take Eschew Materials, which I do when playing a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer. There's still the 20 concentration check to deal with, though... so yeah Ev's is great against casters with no-too-high concentration. Pretty good against almost any medium creature, and some large creatures. Usefulness really depends on what you're facing. When going up against big monsters (Frost Worms, Elephants and Dragons, oh my!) it's more of a so-so delay tactic. In fact, I think you'll find you run into more stuff that isn't stopped by Ev's more often than you'll run into stuff that resist the electrical damage from shocking grasp or burning hands. ;) If I were to think back to my conjurer-gone-alienist, I would avoid direct combat like the plague. Just "not befitting a scholarly gentleman". He preferred summoning things up to tear his enemies apart. Thus, when playing my conjurer, my mindset would probably be more parallel to yours... plus an alienist conjuring tentacles is "the classic"... turning into a hydra isn't. Being barred from evocation, he didn't even bther with MMissile. Heck, he avoided damaging spells altogether. That's what summoned beasties were for. But, not all arcane casters are like that. Sorcerers can use any simple weapon, and that alone gives a little more credibility toward building for melee range (despite the HP... bless the spells of False Life, Vampiric Touch, Bear's Endurance and all those defensive magicks). My latest hybrid character building experiments are in some ways more effective than pure casters, within combat and out. I argue that there are credible ways to make "less useful spells" just as effective... possibly more effective than these supposed "broken spells" of the same level... all without gimping your character. Therefore, there are no broken spells.