Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wagner_98 09-16-05, 11:38 AM	In CV there is a spell called Wraithstrike and I've been told that the spell is broken. Could someone please explain how it is?
DrMorganes 09-16-05, 11:47 AM	Pulling from memory (which has been proven wrong on many occasions - take the following with a grain of salt), wraithstrike essentially turns all of your melee attacks into melee touch attacks - ignoring armor and shield bonuses to AC. I forget what the limiting factors are...
WombleHunter 09-16-05, 11:51 AM	It takes a swift action to cast, and turns all of your melee attacks for one round into melee touch attacks. As a 2nd level spell, it is considered sufficiently low-level that gish types can Power Attack the hell out of you. If you want an example of how it can go really really wrong, Imagine that your precious high-level tank fighter is being attacked by a big dragon, which has it as one of their sorcerer spells, makes a full attack, and Power Attacks maximum...
Seeker95 09-16-05, 08:23 PM	For it to be broken requires a lot of player rules-lawyering and a lot of DM short-sightedness. However, since most games have plenty of these in abundance, it is sufficiently common enough to elicit the term "broken". The "brokenness" is easily removed if you do not let it be used in conjunction with power attack.
ScipioX 09-16-05, 11:07 PM	I don't think its really that broken in normal games. It's self only, so you have to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Which means that you can power attack for some extra damage, but you have to be a fighter/mage of some sort. And honestly, how many uber fighter/mages have you seen? At the very high levels it might be an issue, where 3 levels of a crappy arcane class doens't impact your 17 levels of fighter too much. But in the 5-15 range its not too bad. Just don't let a wiz make it into an item for the warrior to use.
JBW 09-17-05, 02:38 AM	The "brokenness" is easily removed if you do not let it be used in conjunction with power attack. How exactly, within the RAW, would you do this without unduly penalizing the guy that took the time to properly build a Gish? BTW, this spell is devastating when used by a Grell Philosopher (10 tentacles and 1 bite with a full attack!). Add in Arcane Strike for a really nasty beat-down! Jay
Bopple 09-17-05, 03:58 AM	As it is, it's not really broken(though a bit powerful for its level). However, well-planned gishes(notably with Arcane Strike) or clerics(Extra Spell + Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell), can exploit it to utter brokenness.
PhaedrusXY 09-17-05, 01:33 PM	For it to be broken requires a lot of player rules-lawyering and a lot of DM short-sightedness. However, since most games have plenty of these in abundance, it is sufficiently common enough to elicit the term "broken". The "brokenness" is easily removed if you do not let it be used in conjunction with power attack.First you say that it isn't broken, unless the DM is a moron. Then you say that it is so broken that it requires a house-rule to make it useable. So according to you, something isn't broken if you can fix it with a houserule, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a rules-lawyering munchkin or stupid DM? Did I summarize that well enough?
Seeker95 09-17-05, 03:03 PM	Did I summarize that well enough?Nope. Here's a better summary: Abusive Players plus Gutless DM = broken. Moderate DM plus Respectful Players = not broken. If you allow strict literalist rules application, then this spell is easily abusable, entering into the realm of broken. That plenty of folks can describe a specific build that can break the hell out of this is a perfect example of what I mean. I consider a spell broken when its normal use creates an obvious loophole that every caster who can cast the spell is unwise to avoid exploting. 3.0 haste was an example of one of these. At the same time, I found that removing the ability to use haste to cast a second spell removed *all* the brokenness from it. Similarly, this spell is a minor nuisance for most realistic, not-over-the-top stat builds of relatively core, limitation-on-PrC casters. The uber builds require a DM that allows builds based on mechanics alone, and ignores any of the roleplay / background restrictions that would be inherent in most of them, and certainly ignores the "PrCs are for the DM to use as they are relevant to his or her world" nature of PrCs. "Well-planned gishes" fall significantly outside this criteria. So do most cleric builds that somehow gain access to this.
CryoSilver 09-17-05, 09:38 PM	I never build gish-types, but this spell fairly raped the entire party when my NPC rogue used it with TWF and greater invisibility, casting from a wand and scroll, respectively. Four attacks per round (haste+ BAB +6/+1+TWF) at 1d6+5d6+Str or .5 Str+2, all hitting=88-92 damage/round average while they couldn't touch him.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-17-05, 10:00 PM	Here's a better summary: Abusive Players plus Gutless DM = broken. Moderate DM plus Respectful Players = not broken. That's not really the case though. If I'm a spellcaster using a battle sorc or shinobi build and the DM allows whatever book this is in, and I happen to have Power Attack and use them in conjunction with it, Neither of your 'broken' conditions have been met, and yet the spell is still too powerful in conjunction with Power Attack, wounding weapons, and any of a thousand things that are added to weapon damage. And to fix that over power, you have a houserule to fix it. I'm not being disrespectful for using a good combination when I see one and the DM isn't gutless for not knowing every possible combination I can come up with. I suppose my players are disrespecting me when they use terrain effectively, or toss out a grease spell to trip pursuers. As I see the spell as described here, its too powerful. I don't say broken until a spell is approaching MDJ, but not everyone has the exacting standards I do.
PhaedrusXY 09-18-05, 01:00 AM	Ok, I will say that I don't think the spell is "broken", as Vaalingrade Ashland pointed out. It is overpowered, but not "broken". But it certainly doesn't take any ridiculous or unrealistic circumstances to make it overpowered. All it takes is for anyone to make an intelligently built fighter-mage. I don't mean something with 10 classes and feats from a dozen splatbooks, I mean something as simple as Fighter1/Wizard6/EldritchKnightX with Power Attack, a greatsword, and a Polymorph spell. Throwing in a few Quickend True Strikes and/or Arcane Strikes is just icing on the cake. And fighter-mage is a very common character archtype in both actual games and fantasy literature. So I don't think anything I've described is unrealistic or outrageous at all. It seems like a very typical character to me. And in the hands of this character, this spell is extremely powerful for 2nd level I think. The only thing that comes close in my opinion is Mirror Image, and the usefulness of that spell diminishes greatly with levels, as alot of stuff has True Seeing, Tremorsense, and the like.
Seeker95 09-18-05, 01:33 PM	Which brings us back to: The "brokenness" is easily removed if you do not let it be used in conjunction with power attack.
Derren S. 09-18-05, 01:42 PM	Which brings us back to: The "brokenness" is easily removed if you do not let it be used in conjunction with power attack. Which doesn't changes the fact that the spell as it is is broken.
DungeonMaster 09-18-05, 05:23 PM	I consider a spell broken when its normal use creates an obvious loophole that every caster who can cast the spell is unwise to avoid exploting. 3.0 haste was an example of one of these. I don't understand how having a moderate DM and respectful players you come to the conclusion that 3rd edition haste is broken but wraithstrike isn't? One allows you to cast 2 spells in a round ("ooh ahhh"). The other allows your average power attacking dragon to wipe the floor with the party. This isn't "over the top stat builds of relatively core limited PrC". It's a plain MM dragon. Are dragons "unwise to exploit" wraithstrike? Huge numerical gains are often the hallmark of "broken" in a game based on numbers.
jaelis 09-18-05, 05:45 PM	Well you see, respectful players and a moderate DM would look at the spell and say, hmm, that seems pretty powerful for anyone but a pure arcane caster-- let's not let anyone else use it. And thus it's not broken :) Actually, the sneak attack thing seems very troubling. I could imagine the designers overlooking it's use by monsters and power attacking gishes. But given that it's in CV, it would seem to be intended for use by rogues. But even for them, it seems awfully strong, as cryosilver pointed out. Maybe if it applied to just your next attack only, like truestrike. As it is, it is arguably better than a quickened true strike, which is, of course, 4th level.
Seeker95 09-18-05, 08:43 PM	I don't understand how having a moderate DM and respectful players you come to the conclusion that 3rd edition haste is broken but wraithstrike isn't?Simple. Read the rest of the sentence. "...every caster who can cast the spell..." is the critical part. MOST casters that can cast wraithstrike would not willingly place themselves close enough to an opponent to let this spell be useful in the way that causes others to rule it as broken. Combat that requires a touch attack (meaning the caster is toe-to-toe with the opponent) is less than desirable. Wizards tend to be better in the back line, not up front and face-to-face. Wraithstrike is useful only for those casters willing to get into the front line. 3.0 haste is useful to every caster, period. That's why I can conclude that 3.0 haste is broken and wraithstrike isn't. I am also equally comfortable asserting that if the only people you (the generic "anyone reading this thread" you) play D&D with are like those who frequent the Boards, it is also easy to conclude that wraithstrike is broken, simply because it appears that the majority of players on the Boards are NOT that respectful of game balance, seeking to exploit every option their DMs are willing to allow (and still demand more), and that the majority of DMs who frequent the Boards are unwilling to take control of their own games, allowing just about everything their players might demand. I also acknowledge that the above does not apply to every player and every DM on the Boards.
jaelis 09-18-05, 11:33 PM	Well, let's see. For 4500 gp and a DC 23 Use Magic Device check, any rogue can use a wand of wraithstrike. I think the comment about TWFing runs into trouble unless you have quickdraw and are also willing to drop the wand. So let's stick to just a single weapon full attack. The UMD check starts to be reasonable around level 10. The rogue has three attacks with Sneak Attack +5d6. As a guess, lets say wraithstrike increases his hit probability enough to increase his total damage by +5d6 on average. Can you get a comparable effect with another 2nd level spell? Scorching ray also needs a touch attack, and does 4d6 fire damage with no save but with SR. But of course, you also don't need to be in melee to use it, and it takes only a standard action, not a full round. And you don't need to satisfy the SA conditions. Wraithstrike doesn't seem so bad, then. Although it scales awfully nicely with level. By level 15 or so, the rogue would probably do pretty well to just carry the wand around all the time and cast it whenever he makes a SA. It still seems a bit strong to me, but maybe not as bad as it did at first. Nonetheless Seeker, I don't think it's fair to claim that the player in this case is being abusive; I think this is what the spell was designed for. The thing with dragons is still a problem, though.
JBW 09-18-05, 11:56 PM	Couldn't a fighter have Wraithstrike held in his handy Ring of Spellstoring? Right along with the Spikes spell he keeps for boosting his greatclub? Jay
slade_caizer 09-19-05, 12:25 AM	The spell's great. I love it. It's such a wonderful enabler. But is it broken? Not by itself, no. It's a 2nd level spell. Fine. It comes in no sooner than 3rd level (I don't assume the availability of magic items), possibly later than that. When it does come into play I'll have to decide when that's appropriate vs. other 2nd level spells. For me there are a lot of juicy 2nd level spells that will compete with it. It's a swift action casting time. Wonderful. I can get it off quick and have my normal actions for the turn. That's always good. It only lasts one round. I don't like that so well, but then again I wouldn't want it to last any longer. The player in me is fighting against the DM in me. The DM will win, don't worry. (DMs always win. ;) ) As long as you tell players ahead of time that the spell isn't available, that's fine. If you're afraid of the spell wrecking your game, it's your job to preserve it. Personally, I'd let all my players use it (even if they needed UMD to do it) and make every NPC a high-dex threat. Give them fights with things with high touch ACs, DR, Fast Healing, Regeneration, etc. If Wraith Strike + Power Attack utterly destroys your game, I question its overall stability in the beginning. You can do a load of damage with it, true. What if said character doesn't have a ghost touch weapon or fights someone with Blur/Improved Blur? Even if they beat a touch AC most players are slightly dismayed by Displacement. And then as pointed out, what the PCs can do the NPCs can do.
Moon-Lancer 09-19-05, 01:21 AM	not to be a blugger, but you only have to make a 20 dc for any wand.
DungeonMaster 09-19-05, 07:22 AM	Simple. Read the rest of the sentence. "...every caster who can cast the spell..." is the critical part. Dragons are casters who can cast the spell. MOST casters that can cast wraithstrike would not willingly place themselves close enough to an opponent to let this spell be useful in the way that causes others to rule it as broken. You are assuming game balance for a sorc/wiz spell involves considering uniquely wizards. This is not game balance Seeker. This is exact the opposite of game balance, it's game imbalance. It's turning a blind eye to the system as a whole and only considering a very restricted subset. This game is called dungeons and DRAGONS. It's right in the name. You have to really be scribling in a cave under a rock somewhere on mars to design a spell for game called dungeons and DRAGONS and not take into consideration even for a fleeting moment DRAGONS. Wraithstrike is very very broken for the dungeons and DRAGONS game. It might not be broken for the "wizards that sit at the back and don't use spell storing items or have half a wit" game but sadly, that game doesn't exist. Wraithstrike is useful only for those casters willing to get into the front line. 3.0 haste is useful to every caster, period. I'm currently playing a 6th level wizard and have yet to cast haste even once. I don't even have it scribed in my book but I've got a scroll. I've cast fireball at least 10 times and I'm very fond of stilled silent enchantments. It is as useful as other 3rd level spells, and in many ways not as useful as some 3rd level spells. It's level is appropriate.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-19-05, 07:48 AM	Which brings us back to: The "brokenness" is easily removed if you do not let it be used in conjunction with power attack. Honestly I disagree here. Even without power attack, it's still a 2nd level autoquickened true strike that applies to not one, but all of your attacks. Power attack undoubtably makes this situation worse, but even without PA, as written you'll have way better accuracy as a gish than any straight warrior. At mid to high levels, this spell totally removes any significance of the attack roll unless you roll a natural 1.
jaelis 09-19-05, 07:59 AM	not to be a blugger, but you only have to make a 20 dc for any wand. Oops. Yeah.
Seeker95 09-19-05, 01:55 PM	Even without power attack, it's still a 2nd level autoquickened true strike that applies to not one, but all of your attacks.It is not a power attack. It is not a true strike. It is a wraithstrike. For one round. Requiring a *melee touch attack*. True strike gives you a +20 to your next attack roll. It is useful to even the most frail of wizards, standing in the back line, using a bow, sling, or other ranged weapon. Wraithstrike requires you to get up close and personal with your opponent. Given the higher utility of wraithstrike *and* the greater risk the caster of such a spell must place himself into, I understand why it was made a 2nd level spell instead of a 1st level spell. Everyone arguing that it is broken has to give a specific circumstance in which the user of the spell is somehow better than everyone else. Specific builds are not my criteria for broken. And I laugh at anyone claiming this is broken because a dragon can use it. Dragons are *supposed to be* tough opponents. But I'm done with this debate. Argue amongst yourselves. I'll still read the thread, smiling at some, and laughing at others.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-19-05, 03:32 PM	"Its not broken if you drastically alter it." Sounds sort of like "Guns aren't dangerous if you remove the fireing mechanism" And "Its useful to everyone, therefore broken" Sounds like "People benifit from clean water, therefore its too cheap."
Nephlite 09-19-05, 04:37 PM	"Its not broken if you drastically alter it." Sounds sort of like "Guns aren't dangerous if you remove the fireing mechanism" And "Its useful to everyone, therefore broken" Sounds like "People benifit from clean water, therefore its too cheap." Um, Bottled water costs a lot so the second situation is true. Water was deemed too cheap.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-19-05, 05:15 PM	Um, Bottled water costs a lot so the second situation is true. Water was deemed too cheap. Just because that's what was done doesn't mean it was right.
wagner_98 09-19-05, 05:20 PM	Having been the one who started this thread and having read everyone's opinions about this. I agree with Seekers take. I don't think the spell is broken. It doesn't grant a "huge" bonus to hit like True Strike but it can be sizeable and on all attacks. This spell used against a monk or any light armor high dex AC, is not that big of help. This spell is for killing tanks with the low dex and heavy armor. If a DM allows it in there game and I use it, then he has all the right in the world to use it too.
slade_caizer 09-19-05, 08:28 PM	It is not a power attack. It is not a true strike. It is a wraithstrike. For one round. Requiring a *melee touch attack*. True strike gives you a +20 to your next attack roll. It is useful to even the most frail of wizards, standing in the back line, using a bow, sling, or other ranged weapon. Wraithstrike requires you to get up close and personal with your opponent. Given the higher utility of wraithstrike *and* the greater risk the caster of such a spell must place himself into, I understand why it was made a 2nd level spell instead of a 1st level spell. Everyone arguing that it is broken has to give a specific circumstance in which the user of the spell is somehow better than everyone else. Specific builds are not my criteria for broken. And I laugh at anyone claiming this is broken because a dragon can use it. Dragons are *supposed to be* tough opponents. But I'm done with this debate. Argue amongst yourselves. I'll still read the thread, smiling at some, and laughing at others.It doesn't require a melee touch attack. It makes all your melee attacks resolve as touch attacks. A really great thing for the Barbarian with a greatsword fighting a Dragon.
Lina_Inverse 09-19-05, 09:00 PM	by the RAW wraith strike is broken. every dragon in the game will have it as a second level spell and power attack your pcs into TPKs. Dragons are scary enough, they dont need wraith strike. The only reason any intelligent dragon( ummmm which is all of them) wouldnt be useing this is because he has Anti-magic field up instead.
slade_caizer 09-19-05, 09:22 PM	by the RAW wraith strike is broken. every dragon in the game will have it as a second level spell and power attack your pcs into TPKs. Dragons are scary enough, they dont need wraith strike. The only reason any intelligent dragon( ummmm which is all of them) wouldnt be useing this is because he has Anti-magic field up instead.I agree 100%...and it's scary! :eek:
DungeonMaster 09-19-05, 09:41 PM	Everyone arguing that it is broken has to give a specific circumstance in which the user of the spell is somehow better than everyone else. Specific builds are not my criteria for broken. People are giving examples . Giving examples is a cornerstone of proper argumentation . Your criteria for broken is baffling if not ludicrous. You wish to extract the spell from the game system and analyze it only within some restricted subset (i.e. low hitpoint non-mellee wizards) then claim it functional in the game as a whole. :looloo: And I laugh at anyone claiming this is broken because a dragon can use it. Dragons are *supposed to be* tough opponents. :twitch: So you've ruled out specific examples, flagrantly ignore the patently obvious and so yeah... been great fun talking with you Seeker. What a bloody damn waste of my time. :banghead:
jaelis 09-19-05, 10:10 PM	So casting wraithstrike is more or less equivalent to giving your weapons the brilliant energy property for a round. I don't recall hearing a lot of complaints about brilliant energy being unbalanced at a +4 bonus. So wraithstrike is roughly as powerful as a spell that gives you +4 to hit and +4 to damage with all your melee attacks for one round. To push the analogy further, that's worth about as much as +6 to AC for one round (based on weapon and armor prices). In comparison to, say, mage armor, that doesn't seem out of line. (It's a higher bonus and it stacks with existing bonuses, but it's a higher level spell and only lasts one round.) I'm sure there's about one other person out there that argument will make sense to. But I think it actually is a reasonably well-designed spell for PCs. Nonetheless, it's a problem for monsters like dragons. Because, of course, if dragons could buy brilliant energy bodies, they all would, and their CR would be higher.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-19-05, 11:20 PM	So casting wraithstrike is more or less equivalent to giving your weapons the brilliant energy property for a round. I don't recall hearing a lot of complaints about brilliant energy being unbalanced at a +4 bonus. So wraithstrike is roughly as powerful as a spell that gives you +4 to hit and +4 to damage with all your melee attacks for one round. To push the analogy further, that's worth about as much as +6 to AC for one round (based on weapon and armor prices). In comparison to, say, mage armor, that doesn't seem out of line. (It's a higher bonus and it stacks with existing bonuses, but it's a higher level spell and only lasts one round.) Okay, no. +4 price bonus doesn't mean brilliant energy is equivalent to a +4 bonus on a weapon. It means that that is the price the designers think is fair for the quality. This does not mean a spell that has the effect of +4 enhancements is equivalent in any other way to a spell that confirs brilliant energy. Keen edge grants an effect similar to keen, but the spell is still higher level than MAgic Weapon.
jameswilliamogle 09-19-05, 11:47 PM	Wraithstrike is broken beyond 10th level. Wizards are broken beyond 7th level. Druids are broken beyond 5th level. DnD is broken at 1st level. I still play the game, ergo I'll play with Wraithstrike, since it is less broken than the game that includes it :D.
jaelis 09-20-05, 12:05 AM	Okay, no. +4 price bonus doesn't mean brilliant energy is equivalent to a +4 bonus on a weapon. It means that that is the price the designers think is fair for the quality. This does not mean a spell that has the effect of +4 enhancements is equivalent in any other way to a spell that confirs brilliant energy. Keen edge grants an effect similar to keen, but the spell is still higher level than MAgic Weapon. You could get a +4 bonus, or you could get brilliant energy. Some people choose one, some people choose the other. Obviously that doesn't mean that a +4 bonus is equivalent to brilliant energy, but I think it does mean that they both have about the same value. Keen edge is higher level than magic weapon because the bonus from magic weapon doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses, and because keen edge has a 10 times longer duration. I'm sure there's about one other person out there that argument will make sense to. Eh, so you're not that person.
incubus 09-20-05, 12:18 AM	Well, let's see. For 4500 gp and a DC 23 Use Magic Device check, any rogue can use a wand of wraithstrike. To do nothing. Wands require a minimum of a standard action to work. Scrolls are another matter, but significantly more expensive and difficult to work.
jaelis 09-20-05, 12:28 AM	From the srd: Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise. From the ROTG article: Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If the spell stored in a spell trigger item has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is its activation time. It is poorly written in the rules (I was confused too), but the ROTG article is correct.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-20-05, 12:41 AM	You could get a +4 bonus, or you could get brilliant energy. Some people choose one, some people choose the other. You can have +4 AND Brilliant energy if you pay for it. Obviously that doesn't mean that a +4 bonus is equivalent to brilliant energy, but I think it does mean that they both have about the same value. What?! No. Spellwise, a +4 to attack and damage is not equal to a spell that makes all your attacks touch. Further, just how damn many second level spells do you know that grant +4 to attack and damage? Keen edge is higher level than magic weapon because the bonus from magic weapon doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses, and because keen edge has a 10 times longer duration. In 3.5, keen edge doesn't stack with keening effects either. Your point there?
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-20-05, 12:43 AM	It is poorly written in the rules (I was confused too), but the ROTG article is correct. For a spellcaster, you are correct, but a rogue must UMD, which is a standard action reguardless.
jaelis 09-20-05, 07:42 AM	For a spellcaster, you are correct, but a rogue must UMD, which is a standard action reguardless. From the UMD skill description: Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.
DungeonMaster 09-20-05, 12:57 PM	Brilliant energy does not ignore natural armor. Wraithstrike ignores natural armor. Wraithstrike is far and above better than brilliant energy. Next.
jaelis 09-20-05, 02:37 PM	Dang, why did I get confused about that? That's disappointing, I thought that was a nice way to make sense of it. I am hesitant to dismiss wraithstrike as simply broken, since I think the designers are pretty sharp folks. But this one seems hard to defend. A weapon enchantment that bypassed armor and natural armor would evidently be epic, and letting a second level spell give you an epic ability on all your weapons, even for one round, seems like too much.
Lina_Inverse 09-20-05, 03:35 PM	Dang, why did I get confused about that? That's disappointing, I thought that was a nice way to make sense of it. I am hesitant to dismiss wraithstrike as simply broken, since I think the designers are pretty sharp folks. But this one seems hard to defend. A weapon enchantment that bypassed armor and natural armor would evidently be epic, and letting a second level spell give you an epic ability on all your weapons, even for one round, seems like too much. The designers have no clue what there doing. I point thee to pun-pun, or anything else that comes out of CO. Wizards seriously needs to apoint the CO boards there playtesters :D
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-20-05, 03:57 PM	since I think the designers are pretty sharp folks. I'll let this one go by.
jaelis 09-20-05, 10:03 PM	The designers have no clue what there doing. I point thee to pun-pun, or anything else that comes out of CO. Wizards seriously needs to apoint the CO boards there playtesters :D Saying the designers make mistakes is one thing. Saying they have no clue what they are doing is something else. People on the boards have fun finding the 5% of the game material that has some kind of problem, and then either exploiting it or arguing about it. Doing that is fun for me too. But don't let it blind you to the fact that maybe 95% of what they put out is good. It might not all be to your taste, but most of the material works. Wraithstrike is a case in point. There are 70 spells in CV. This is the only one that I've seen come up often as a problem. Maybe there's a few more, I don't know. But I do know that, in absolute terms, their success rate is pretty good. Could you write 70 spells and have only one of them judged "broken" by the boards community? I sure couldn't. Furthermore, since they only rarely miss a beat, it's worth looking closely at rules that seem bad. Maybe they did make a mistake, but maybe we are making one in our evaluation. Being that they are the professionals and we are amateurs, I think it is a good bet to start with the assumption that their work is sound and to put the burden of proof on us to show it is not. And when we do find a mistake, as wraithstrike may be, to think that means we are better game designers than the writers is just plain childish.
Konphujun 09-20-05, 10:27 PM	Hey, Assuming this spell IS broken, then wouldn't the "Deep Impact" feat from the XPH be broken as it allows the same thing? Just curious. Peace, Konphujun :devil:
Ectoplasmoid 09-20-05, 10:48 PM	No, because Deep Impact can only be used on one attack every other round.
jameswilliamogle 09-20-05, 10:49 PM	Hey, Assuming this spell IS broken, then wouldn't the "Deep Impact" feat from the XPH be broken as it allows the same thing? Just curious. Peace, Konphujun :devil:Nope: since you have to expend psionic focus, then you can only get to do it once, thus its more like a quickened true strike; a very fair trade for 2 feats (Wild Talent and Deep Impact), esp. since you can't have it until level 5 at the earliest. It's the 1 round duration that's the most broken about Wraithstrike (I point to Dervish builds w/ 3 levels of wizard, or the ever popular TWF Rogue / Wizard or Sorcerer).
Konphujun 09-20-05, 11:42 PM	Hey, By 7th level a psychic warrior could be using deep impact every turn. Psionic Meditation + Deep Impact would mean that they could resolve every attack as a melee touch attack. Combine that with power attack and you have some serious power. Notice how I said POWER, not broken-ness. Sure, a dervish could take 3 levels of wizard to do this, but then you are going out of your way just to take advantage of something. Besides, by the time a dervish could actually make use of this spell, you would have to be at least 9th level. Plus you would have to deal with spell failure from any armor that your wearing. That is, unless you choose not to wear armor just to abuse a spell, in which case you would'nt be of much use to your party anyways because you would be either absorbing alot of damage, or possibly fizzling when you tried to cast this spell. Not to mention that a readied action could stop any attempt to cast this spell dead. And seeing as how you are only a third level wizard you would only be able to cast this spell once or twice anyways. Wow, seems like alot of work huh? Just rememeber, things are only as broken as you let them get. Peace, Konphujun :devil:
Lina_Inverse 09-21-05, 02:23 AM	Hey, By 7th level a psychic warrior could be using deep impact every turn. Psionic Meditation + Deep Impact would mean that they could resolve every attack as a melee touch attack. Combine that with power attack and you have some serious power. Notice how I said POWER, not broken-ness. Sure, a dervish could take 3 levels of wizard to do this, but then you are going out of your way just to take advantage of something. Besides, by the time a dervish could actually make use of this spell, you would have to be at least 9th level. Plus you would have to deal with spell failure from any armor that your wearing. That is, unless you choose not to wear armor just to abuse a spell, in which case you would'nt be of much use to your party anyways because you would be either absorbing alot of damage, or possibly fizzling when you tried to cast this spell. Not to mention that a readied action could stop any attempt to cast this spell dead. And seeing as how you are only a third level wizard you would only be able to cast this spell once or twice anyways. Wow, seems like alot of work huh? Just rememeber, things are only as broken as you let them get. Peace, Konphujun :devil: deep impact is one attack/round and you skip full attacking. wraith strike is ALL 4 of your attacks. huge diffrence.
NateNate 09-21-05, 08:18 AM	Regarding Deep Impact, one of the strongest 8th level characters (other than a Druid 8) is a Psychic Warrior 8 with a +1 Keen Falchion. Without being Human, he has enough feats to take Spring Attack, Power Attack, Deep Impact, and Psionic Meditation. He can also take Hustle, which basically enables him to regain psionic focus as a Swift Action. Nothing gets to Full Attack him unless it has Pounce, and he can deal decent damage every round until he runs out of powerpoints. When used properly, the feat is very good, but not broken, especially compared to something of an equivelant level. Add on Psionic Weapon Master and/or Elocator and/or (Illithid) Slayer, and it gets even better. I don't think Wraithstrike is broken. Just because most tank-type characters dump their touch AC doesn't make the spell broken. If the party tank is a Monk, that Wraithstriking Power Attacking Dragon isn't going to hit very often. Anyone who lets a Dragon full-attack them in the first place deserves what they get, since everyone should know that Dragons have an angrier Full Attack and more HPs than they do. Fighting toe-to-toe with a Dragon is a death wish, with or without Wraithstrike. Wraithstrike is good because most PCs/monsters don't have very good touch ACs. What about a Halfling Master Thrower with the Weak Spot trick? I once made one who dealt 50+ damage per round at level 12, and he never missed because the monsters didn't have good touch ACs. Does it make an ability "broken" just because someone uses it the right way? What if a party is dependent on using Wraithstrike/ Weak Spot/ Touch spells, and encounters an opponent with an awesome touch AC? Is that monster "broken" because its abilities were good in a certain situation? Something is "broken" if everyone capable of using it does use it. The only creatures/characters who will get decent use from Wraithstrike are the ones who are good at melee and capable of casting 2nd level Arcane spells. For TWF UMD wand-users, unless they drop the wand and Quick-Draw their off-hand weapon, they won't get as great a use from it as everyone suspects, and definitely can't use it every round. That leaves Gishes and Dragons/other Arcane caster monsters. Not all arcane casters are Gishes, so that doesn't fit the "everyone capable of using it" criteria. Not all melee-capable monsters are capable of casting arcane spells, and not all monsters capable of casting arcane spells have melee attacks worth using. Therefore, this also does not fit the "everyone capable of using it" criteria. Just because something is really good for Gishes, True Dragons, and a select few other monsters doesn't make it "broken" at all. Broken spells are good all on their own. Wraithstrike takes at least a little effort to get the right use out of it, such as making a decent Gish or taking Extra Spell. Even then, good use isn't guaranteed, such as in the case of a smart party fighting the Wraithstriking dragon who never gets to full-attack, or encountering a monster/Monk who has a good touch AC. Even if you use it with Persistent Spell, many opponents would/could/should use Detect Magic or Arcane Sight, and Dispel Magic anyone who has a lot of auras, just because there are many awesome buffing spells which many PCs could constantly be using. Not to mention "Dispelling Breath is so good I almost kicked my mom in the face." Anyone capable of casting the spell Dragon Breath should be capable of using that one, which uses a targeted Dispel Magic on everyone in the area of effect, so no more buffs. The only thing I'd even consider changing about Wraithstrike would be making it count as an Incorporeal Touch, therefore taking Force effects like Mage Armor into account. That's only because it would make more sense based on the spell's description, not because of any mechanical balancing factors. Based on the arguments I've seen, I've come to the conclusion that "Wraithstrike is too good when used right, by the right creatures/characters, in most situations." Many spells can fall into that category, and nobody is complaining about those, so why pick on this one?
Konphujun 09-21-05, 01:51 PM	Hey, OK, so you get to full attack once and resolve them all as touch attacks. Sure, you have a point there. However, that is limited to the number of spells per day that you have, charges left on the wand, scrolls (how much xp do you really want to spend?). Deep impact lets you do it AT WILL. They are both very powerful, but I would say that deep impact wins by a hair. Peace, Konphujun :devil:
solbergb 09-21-05, 02:13 PM	Having been the one who started this thread and having read everyone's opinions about this. I agree with Seekers take. I don't think the spell is broken. It doesn't grant a "huge" bonus to hit like True Strike but it can be sizeable and on all attacks. This spell used against a monk or any light armor high dex AC, is not that big of help. This spell is for killing tanks with the low dex and heavy armor. If a DM allows it in there game and I use it, then he has all the right in the world to use it too. Once you get past level 10, most of your opponents have enough natural armor or physical armor to make the bonus, indeed, up in the truestrike arena. An EL10 fighter will have AC's in the 20s, touch AC of low teens or maybe as low as 10 or 11. That means it is a +10-15 to hit, and on some opponents +20 or more. This is why it scales so badly. Not only are high level fighters better able to translate to-hit into damage (more BAB = more power attack, more toys = higher base strength and attack bennies without the BAB), but their opponents tend to get big boosts in size (less touch AC, more nat armor) or toys (more armor/shield, more to ignore with wraithstrike). Once you get out of the levels where a L2 spell is a combat resource, you're entering the levels where it has a big payoff. There are some complexities in getting wraithstrike to work at full power (somatic component means one hand needs to be off the weapon sometimes) but dragons and other monsterous arcane casters don't even have that issue.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-21-05, 04:15 PM	Something is "broken" if everyone capable of using it does use it. NO. This is the bad trap that came out in 3.5. That is not the definition of broken and leads to all sorts of shenanigans.
smrtgmp 09-21-05, 04:22 PM	I agree. The term is bandied about so much that it has lost all meaning.
Lina_Inverse 09-21-05, 04:25 PM	Saying the designers make mistakes is one thing. Saying they have no clue what they are doing is something else. People on the boards have fun finding the 5% of the game material that has some kind of problem, and then either exploiting it or arguing about it. Doing that is fun for me too. But don't let it blind you to the fact that maybe 95% of what they put out is good. It might not all be to your taste, but most of the material works. Wraithstrike is a case in point. There are 70 spells in CV. This is the only one that I've seen come up often as a problem. Maybe there's a few more, I don't know. But I do know that, in absolute terms, their success rate is pretty good. Could you write 70 spells and have only one of them judged "broken" by the boards community? I sure couldn't. Furthermore, since they only rarely miss a beat, it's worth looking closely at rules that seem bad. Maybe they did make a mistake, but maybe we are making one in our evaluation. Being that they are the professionals and we are amateurs, I think it is a good bet to start with the assumption that their work is sound and to put the burden of proof on us to show it is not. And when we do find a mistake, as wraithstrike may be, to think that means we are better game designers than the writers is just plain childish. How hard would it be to take 10-20 people(or people who think like them) from the CO board and use them as playtesters? Not too hard. Those are the kind of people they should be useing but apparntly not.
Seeker95 09-21-05, 10:21 PM	How hard would it be to take 10-20 people(or people who think like them) from the CO board and use them as playtesters? Not too hard. Those are the kind of people they should be useing but apparntly not.Yeah, 'cause I want all of the rules based on the extreme examples instead of the mainstream. :rolleyes: Saying this spell is "broken" because a dragon, or a gestalt barbarian wizard Prestige Class X can use it to practically auto hit all four attacks in a single round --> lame and sad. Lame that your game seems to have every PC twinked to the max. Sad that you think a dragon hitting four times in a full attack is the definition of broken. In 28 years of playing D&D, I and the vast majority of the close to ahundred people I played with in that time had not found more than one or two of the "broken" rules of past editions. In five years of playing 3e, I have not had a single player try to do the abusive crap you folks spout on about when providing the majority of examples of "broken" this or "broken" that. The only thing broken is the spirit of fun in a lot of the Boards population. If "broken" is any spell the Boards population can abuse, then the entire 3rd edition is broken.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-21-05, 10:34 PM	Saying this spell is "broken" because a dragon, or a gestalt barbarian wizard Prestige Class X can use it to practically auto hit all four attacks in a single round --> lame and sad. How about the fact that if the spell is allowed, any monkey can get four attacks as touch?
JBW 09-21-05, 10:42 PM	Yeah, Rings of Spell Storing are pretty sweet on the hands of beaters. Make sure your beater has Spikes boosting up his Greatclub too! Jay
ScipioX 09-21-05, 11:22 PM	The spell is only so powerful in a very small part of the game. I.E. only at very high level or with certain very powerful monstors. So just rule 0 it for those few areas where it gets out of hand. But a spell that works as intended for most players most of the time hardly qualifies as broken. Theres a difference between a broken spell, and one that CAN be broken by a determined player.
Seeker95 09-22-05, 09:32 AM	How about the fact that if the spell is allowed, any monkey can get four attacks as touch?If your DM is allowing awakened spellcasting monkeys dual-classed as spellcaster / fighter gestalt combinations in high level play, wraithstike is not likely to be any more of a game-breaker than the other things the DM has placed in the game.
Moon-Lancer 09-22-05, 12:08 PM	in fact it would be the least of your problems. omg. if I grapple someone i can do automatic damage... ahhh sorry just jesting.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-22-05, 02:17 PM	If your DM is allowing awakened spellcasting monkeys dual-classed as spellcaster / fighter gestalt combinations in high level play, wraithstike is not likely to be any more of a game-breaker than the other things the DM has placed in the game. Not a big believer in evolution then? ;)