Broken Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
devinmdp
06-11-05, 04:50 AM Sorry if this has been brought up, but the search function isn't working.

I was preparing a light encounter for my PCs. So I work up a necromancer (wizard specialist) and give him the Summon Undead spells from Libris Mortis.

Then I start to craft the stats of some of the undead he might summon. I notice that Summon Undead III, a mere 3rd level spell, allows one to summon any single Huge skeleton.

So, let's see what the MM has for Huge skeletons. Oh. I see. A CR 8 Huge Red Dragon skeleton.

Wow!

So I can have a CR 5 encounter and I can just toss in 3 skeletons with 123 hp and 6 majorly tough physical attacks?!? That cannot be turned?

Nothing in the Monster Summoning III list come close to this level of power.

The largest monsters on the Monster Summoning II list are CR 2 and have 5 HD.

These Summon Undead spells have GOT to be broken!

Opinions?

Devin
RaspK FOG
06-11-05, 04:59 AM I think there was a HD limit based on your caster level on some other version of this spell and they forgot to put it along or something...
devinmdp
06-11-05, 05:01 AM Nope. Even in the old version in Magic if Faerun....no HD limit.

It's just insane!

With a 5th level spell I can get 3 skeletons with 19 HD each!!
RaspK FOG
06-11-05, 05:15 AM Nope. Even in the old version in Magic if Faerun....no HD limit.

It's just insane!

With a 5th level spell I can get 3 skeletons with 19 HD each!!
I think there was errata on it on Player's Guide to Faerūn... You might want to check it out.
devinmdp
06-11-05, 06:23 AM I think there was errata on it on Player's Guide to Faerūn... You might want to check it out.

Excellent! Thanks. It was actually in the errata to the Player's Guide to Faerun. Good memory on your part!

For the record, it limits the HD of an undead summoned to caster level +1.

A very reasonable limit and one they should have errata'd for Libris Mortis!

Devin
RaspK FOG
06-11-05, 06:40 AM Thank you for the kindness of your words; I am just gld I could be of assistance. :)
Caterane
06-11-05, 12:09 PM This spell is still broken beyond anything! Let's say lvl 9 wizard with +2 to CL (craft tattoo and +1 from a PrC), for CL 11. Summon undead 5 allows for four 12 HD skeletons.

12-headed hydra with paragon template
Type:..........Huge Undead
HD:............12d12 +144paragon
HP:............288 (Paragon: Max HP)
Ini:.............+13 (+9dex, +4impIni)
Speed:.......60, Swim60 (Paragon: Tripple)
AC:...........34 (-2size, +9dex, +3natural, +12insight, +12luck),
................. touch 31, flat-footed 25
BAB:.........+6
Grapple:....+28 (+6bab, +14str, +8size)
Attacks:.....12 Bite +43 (+6bab, +14str, +25insight -2size)
Damage:....1d10+34 (+14str, +20luck)
S/R:...........15 / 10
SQ:............ImmunityCold, DR5/bludgeoning
Saves:........F: +14 / R: +23 / W: +18 (+10insight)
Abilities:.....Str 38, Dex 29, Con --,
..................Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills:.........--
Feats:........Imp.Ini
CR:...........6

Damage Comparison in 11 rounds: (assuming all hit)
4 Ancient Black Dragons: 4004 damage
4 paragon 12-H. Hydras: 20856 damage

Suggestion: limit it to those explicitely mentioned in the MM 1
DM Zoc
06-11-05, 05:50 PM Summoned creatures are average members of the specimen, and never have templates.
Caterane
06-11-05, 06:03 PM Summoned creatures are average members of the specimen, and never have templates.

You mean, like "fiendish" and "celestial"? ;)

Even without the paragon, four 12-Headed Hydras are too much at lvl 9. Make them Pyro-Hydras so that they're immune to fire and cold.
Dragonsblood
06-11-05, 08:53 PM I haven't read it myself, but from what I've read on these forums, Libris Mortis seems to have many broken things (such as that negative level spell feat...). Kinda makes me glad my DM only uses the major 3 core books.
Vaelan
06-12-05, 01:18 AM Even without the paragon, four 12-Headed Hydras are too much at lvl 9. Make them Pyro-Hydras so that they're immune to fire and cold.

First of all, you do not get to choose which templates your summoned creatures have. None of the summoning spells allow you to do so. They may allow specific creatures with templates to be summoned, but you don't get to choose.

Second, skeletons lose nearly all of the special qualities of the base creature, such as Fast Healing, Immunities, and, although it is unclear, perhaps even the ability to regrow heads.

Lastly, this isn't the case of a broken spell, this is a case of truly pathetic editing. Take a look at Magic of Faerun. It has the exact same version of Summon Undead in it, right down to the list of creatures. But why is this important? Because Magic of Faerun is a 3.0 book.

In 3.0, skeleton and zombie were creature types, not templates. A Huge skeleton was just that: a really big humanoid skeleton. The definition of what a skeleton is changed with 3.5, but the spell was just re-written into the Player's Guide to Faerun and then into Libris Mortis..

It is clearly not an example of a broken spell, but instead an example of extremely poor editing.

Libris Mortis seems to have many broken things (such as that negative level spell feat...).

That "negative level spell feat", as you called it, is by no means broken. Since you don't seem to be too familiar with the feat, I'll tell you a few things about it.

It is called Fell Drain. It is a metamagic feat that increases the level of the slot used to cast the spell by 2. It inflicts one negative level upon each living creature damaged by the spell it is applied to. It is quite balanced when compared to other spells that inflict negative levels, since inflicting a single negative level upon multiple creatures is far less useful than inflicting multiple negative levels upon a single creature.
Dragonsblood
06-12-05, 05:17 AM Still seems a bit overpowered IMO, but that's not as broken as it seemed when I read another poster describe it. I think he mentioned using it with magic missile to drain 5 levels on a single target (1 for each missile). Max of 1 level per target is a little more balanced - but I think it should take a slot 3 levels higher and not just 2 since it seems to put damage on par with Maximize Spell.
RaspK FOG
06-12-05, 08:24 PM Not to mention that templates should apply their LA on all things you summon; for example, I see nothing with summoning a vampire as long as its LA is included!
Lilt
06-13-05, 02:38 AM Nice catch on the spell... Even with the nerfing it's still scales particularily well with caster-level, something that other summon spells fail to do.

I do disagree with being able to summon creatures with extra templates attached, you may as-well just make every creature summoned with Summon Nature's Ally into a Draconic and Half-Celestial version.

So which are nice creatures to summon at each level of spell? I just posed this question on the CO boards here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6430565#post6430565) as I feel that's a more on-topic forum to ask such a question on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
devinmdp 06-11-05, 04:50 AM	Sorry if this has been brought up, but the search function isn't working. I was preparing a light encounter for my PCs. So I work up a necromancer (wizard specialist) and give him the Summon Undead spells from Libris Mortis. Then I start to craft the stats of some of the undead he might summon. I notice that Summon Undead III, a mere 3rd level spell, allows one to summon any single Huge skeleton. So, let's see what the MM has for Huge skeletons. Oh. I see. A CR 8 Huge Red Dragon skeleton. Wow! So I can have a CR 5 encounter and I can just toss in 3 skeletons with 123 hp and 6 majorly tough physical attacks?!? That cannot be turned? Nothing in the Monster Summoning III list come close to this level of power. The largest monsters on the Monster Summoning II list are CR 2 and have 5 HD. These Summon Undead spells have GOT to be broken! Opinions? Devin
RaspK FOG 06-11-05, 04:59 AM	I think there was a HD limit based on your caster level on some other version of this spell and they forgot to put it along or something...
devinmdp 06-11-05, 05:01 AM	Nope. Even in the old version in Magic if Faerun....no HD limit. It's just insane! With a 5th level spell I can get 3 skeletons with 19 HD each!!
RaspK FOG 06-11-05, 05:15 AM	Nope. Even in the old version in Magic if Faerun....no HD limit. It's just insane! With a 5th level spell I can get 3 skeletons with 19 HD each!! I think there was errata on it on Player's Guide to Faerūn... You might want to check it out.
devinmdp 06-11-05, 06:23 AM	I think there was errata on it on Player's Guide to Faerūn... You might want to check it out. Excellent! Thanks. It was actually in the errata to the Player's Guide to Faerun. Good memory on your part! For the record, it limits the HD of an undead summoned to caster level +1. A very reasonable limit and one they should have errata'd for Libris Mortis! Devin
RaspK FOG 06-11-05, 06:40 AM	Thank you for the kindness of your words; I am just gld I could be of assistance. :)
Caterane 06-11-05, 12:09 PM	This spell is still broken beyond anything! Let's say lvl 9 wizard with +2 to CL (craft tattoo and +1 from a PrC), for CL 11. Summon undead 5 allows for four 12 HD skeletons. 12-headed hydra with paragon template Type:..........Huge Undead HD:............12d12 +144paragon HP:............288 (Paragon: Max HP) Ini:.............+13 (+9dex, +4impIni) Speed:.......60, Swim60 (Paragon: Tripple) AC:...........34 (-2size, +9dex, +3natural, +12insight, +12luck), ................. touch 31, flat-footed 25 BAB:.........+6 Grapple:....+28 (+6bab, +14str, +8size) Attacks:.....12 Bite +43 (+6bab, +14str, +25insight -2size) Damage:....1d10+34 (+14str, +20luck) S/R:...........15 / 10 SQ:............ImmunityCold, DR5/bludgeoning Saves:........F: +14 / R: +23 / W: +18 (+10insight) Abilities:.....Str 38, Dex 29, Con --, ..................Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills:.........-- Feats:........Imp.Ini CR:...........6 Damage Comparison in 11 rounds: (assuming all hit) 4 Ancient Black Dragons: 4004 damage 4 paragon 12-H. Hydras: 20856 damage Suggestion: limit it to those explicitely mentioned in the MM 1
DM Zoc 06-11-05, 05:50 PM	Summoned creatures are average members of the specimen, and never have templates.
Caterane 06-11-05, 06:03 PM	Summoned creatures are average members of the specimen, and never have templates. You mean, like "fiendish" and "celestial"? ;) Even without the paragon, four 12-Headed Hydras are too much at lvl 9. Make them Pyro-Hydras so that they're immune to fire and cold.
Dragonsblood 06-11-05, 08:53 PM	I haven't read it myself, but from what I've read on these forums, Libris Mortis seems to have many broken things (such as that negative level spell feat...). Kinda makes me glad my DM only uses the major 3 core books.
Vaelan 06-12-05, 01:18 AM	Even without the paragon, four 12-Headed Hydras are too much at lvl 9. Make them Pyro-Hydras so that they're immune to fire and cold. First of all, you do not get to choose which templates your summoned creatures have. None of the summoning spells allow you to do so. They may allow specific creatures with templates to be summoned, but you don't get to choose. Second, skeletons lose nearly all of the special qualities of the base creature, such as Fast Healing, Immunities, and, although it is unclear, perhaps even the ability to regrow heads. Lastly, this isn't the case of a broken spell, this is a case of truly pathetic editing. Take a look at Magic of Faerun. It has the exact same version of Summon Undead in it, right down to the list of creatures. But why is this important? Because Magic of Faerun is a 3.0 book. In 3.0, skeleton and zombie were creature types, not templates. A Huge skeleton was just that: a really big humanoid skeleton. The definition of what a skeleton is changed with 3.5, but the spell was just re-written into the Player's Guide to Faerun and then into Libris Mortis.. It is clearly not an example of a broken spell, but instead an example of extremely poor editing. Libris Mortis seems to have many broken things (such as that negative level spell feat...). That "negative level spell feat", as you called it, is by no means broken. Since you don't seem to be too familiar with the feat, I'll tell you a few things about it. It is called Fell Drain. It is a metamagic feat that increases the level of the slot used to cast the spell by 2. It inflicts one negative level upon each living creature damaged by the spell it is applied to. It is quite balanced when compared to other spells that inflict negative levels, since inflicting a single negative level upon multiple creatures is far less useful than inflicting multiple negative levels upon a single creature.
Dragonsblood 06-12-05, 05:17 AM	Still seems a bit overpowered IMO, but that's not as broken as it seemed when I read another poster describe it. I think he mentioned using it with magic missile to drain 5 levels on a single target (1 for each missile). Max of 1 level per target is a little more balanced - but I think it should take a slot 3 levels higher and not just 2 since it seems to put damage on par with Maximize Spell.
RaspK FOG 06-12-05, 08:24 PM	Not to mention that templates should apply their LA on all things you summon; for example, I see nothing with summoning a vampire as long as its LA is included!
Lilt 06-13-05, 02:38 AM	Nice catch on the spell... Even with the nerfing it's still scales particularily well with caster-level, something that other summon spells fail to do. I do disagree with being able to summon creatures with extra templates attached, you may as-well just make every creature summoned with Summon Nature's Ally into a Draconic and Half-Celestial version. So which are nice creatures to summon at each level of spell? I just posed this question on the CO boards here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6430565#post6430565) as I feel that's a more on-topic forum to ask such a question on.