Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jolly Josh 08-12-05, 10:35 AM	my group(including the DM) think magic is overpowered some what... and especially spells from the complete books and BoED, BoVD... I want you guys to help us weed out the broken spells. We can compile a big list on this thread of spells that are broken and say why. I'll start with a few off the top of my head... Quillblast - 5th level druid spell better than energydrain in some cases... gives negative d12 IIRC levels from spikes being shoved in you... broke! Wraithstrike - for the very reason there is a huge discussion. click here to read about it (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=478428)
tarkin 08-12-05, 11:21 AM	Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictim/etc. No Save, target of your level can't take any action for at least one round. And creatures that have the ability to use Blasphemy also have the ability to summon a friend that has the same ability. One such creature surprises you, summons an ally. Then each round, one of the two creature uses the ability while the other does damage. Party killed before the creatures run out of uses/day.
jameswilliamogle 08-12-05, 03:06 PM	here's some that'll cause some controversy, i'm sure: acid splash: no save, no sr, can be combined w/ sneak attack, fell drain, fell animate (as a finishing move). too powerful for a level 0 spell ray of enfeeblement: no save, d6 str damage, and is useful at every level. too powerful for a level 1 spell.
Derren S. 08-12-05, 03:09 PM	Assay Resistance: Swift self buff which in the end automatically lets you succed in SR checks against equal CR enemies. Orb of X: Energy damage with no save and SR. Steals the show from the Evocation school which should handle direct energy damage. Gate: For 1k xp coupled with plainshift) is a 100% free kill (best used on the BBEG). Alternativly you can use it for free wishes or extreme strong combat support.
Seeker95 08-12-05, 03:54 PM	I'm not disagreeing with any of the above (which will come as a surprise to some folks) but bring in a request for a caveat in reading the reasons some may offer for defining a spell as "broken". One controversy in many "broken spells" lies in the manner in which the spell is assumed to be usable. Derren's listing of gate as a "free wish" element is one such controversy. Whether you can get a creature that can cast wish for you is one element under dispute (is noble djinn something you can gate?). Another is whether the creature you can get has to grant it (why would the efreet bother?). Another controversy lies in the assumption that a spell is broken because of how it can interact with another spell. The same gate concern for a free kill involves the use of this spell in conjunction with plane shift. That you can use two spells together to create a very powerful combination does not mean either spell is broken, but rather the combination is broken. When you have to establish very specific criteria before a spell breaks, it is less likely to be a broken spell and more likely to be a broken combination, or simply an abusable one. It is the responsibility of the DM to prevent this.
Derren S. 08-12-05, 04:02 PM	why would the efreet bother?. Because the Effreti is under complete controll of the caster and can't refuse to cast the spell nor can it twist it.
jameswilliamogle 08-12-05, 04:02 PM	i agree, define "broken", lest every n00b who just got smoked by a magic missile say magic missile is teh broke.
Arklich 08-12-05, 04:04 PM	acid splash: [snip], arcane strike. too powerful for a level 0 spell.[snip] Wait, can arcane strike be used with a spell?
Derren S. 08-12-05, 04:07 PM	No, Arcane Strike only works with melee weapons but you can sneak attack with the spell.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-12-05, 04:07 PM	Disjunction. - Auto-drops all spells except AMF - dispels infinite spells - disjoins infinite items - dispells cast by Gods. - can destroy and artifiact - can strip a character of almost all of his class features.
jameswilliamogle 08-12-05, 04:09 PM	No, Arcane Strike only works with melee weapons but you can sneak attack with the spell.my bad; at work, don't have books-will edit post. still think it's too powerful.
Seeker95 08-12-05, 04:38 PM	Because the Effreti is under complete controll of the caster and can't refuse to cast the spell nor can it twist it.And herein lies the controversy. Derren is absolutely certain this statement is true. I am not.A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.Here's the kicker. The efreet is evil. It wants to twist in any way it can. You ask for the wish. It casts the spell. The efreet gets to word the wish. A very powerful evil being gets to make the wish for you. You say what you want. It casts wish. It asks for what you want. It goes home. You get what you wished for. "Twisting" a wish is inherent in the wish if you are involving an efreet. It's the risk you take.
Derren S. 08-12-05, 04:43 PM	When the caster dictates the wish the effreti can't change the wording and as the alignment of the wish is independant from the caster to "twisting" happens.
jameswilliamogle 08-12-05, 04:56 PM	heh, the DM could decide that the creature might stall until the "immediate" time is up. that would be a crappy way out of it... but granting a single wish and immidiately gaining an adventure hook (vengeful efreeti) isn't that bad of a tradeoff, really. after all, wishes aren't anywhere near as powerful as they were in previous editions. the real problem comes from casting 5 gates and then getting the +5 inherent bonuses from multiple wishes (legality aside, some dm's may allow it) and only spending 5000 xp, but i don't think even this is really that bad considering the repurcusions of all those efreeti after you, and the fact that it takes a LONG time before you can do it.
was_fired 08-12-05, 05:02 PM	The polymorph line of spells used as the ultimate defense buffs, and often potent offensive buffs as well.
Derren S. 08-12-05, 05:03 PM	Wishes are powerfull enough to let the efreti forget what happened which is a logical use for the thrid one. Bye bye plot hook. But lets not escalate this into a wish/gate discussion. Its about broken spells in general. Another broken Spell Shivering Touch, No save 3w6 dex damage on a touch. Can immobilize nearly anything the party faces as it even stacks. Basically the 3.5 Harm.
Centauri 08-12-05, 05:16 PM	Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictim/etc. All brought to a screeching halt by Silence. Or by staying 40 feet away from whatever can cast it. No Save, target of your level can't take any action for at least one round. Only Blasphemy causes the subject to be dazed. The others cause deafness. Makes me wonder if Blasphemy has a typo.
Nephlite 08-12-05, 05:28 PM	Powerful spells: Book of Exalted Deed: 1) Armageddon (9th level spell but whoa): You sarcifice 1 character level to cast though. 2d4 avorals, 2 rounds later summons a ghaele eladrin, and 2 rounds after that an astral Deva. They only attack evil but still strong. Complete Adventurer: 1) Foebane (ranger 4th spell) Dur 1 rd/lv, but makes one weapon +5 magic (+2d6 extra damage like bane) against one creature type chosen. You also gain +4 resistance to saves against that type while weilding weapon. Im not sure about: 1) Nightstalker's transmation (5th level Sorc/Wiz): makes you gain evasion, rogue proficincies, +3d6 sneak attack damage, weapon finiesis, +5 reflex, +3 luck bonus AC, +4 dex, and +5 spot/listen/hide,and move silent. You lose casting like Tensar's. Dur 1 rd/level. These are the major issues I have.
Lord shadow35 08-12-05, 05:28 PM	repusion- is semi broken! Trap the soul- well it isn't broken but it's a good spell Gate- Is broken Planar Binding spells-Broken Magic circle Against ?- Semi broken Time stop- Broken Mind Blank- Broken But in the end i suppose it's all up to your DM. Because alot of DM's apperently like to nuter spells for the spellcaster. You know a bad dm when he can't take the rules and turn them against you.
Nagol 08-12-05, 05:43 PM	Spikes (Complete Divine) 3rd level spell providing the equivalent of Keen Edge, +2 enhancement bonus to hit and untyped damage bonus equal to caster level (max +10). The whole package lasts 1 hour/level. The sage has also ruled that the untyped damage stacks with its lesser cousin, Brambles.
Derren S. 08-12-05, 05:46 PM	You know a bad dm when he can't take the rules and turn them against you. What a great reasoning. So a DM who allows a broken spell and then uses it to slaughter the party resulting in an TPK (or just multiple deaths) is a good DM? Broken spell: Miasma (Without errata. With errata the spell is ok)
green_yawgmoth 08-12-05, 05:52 PM	here's some that'll cause some controversy, i'm sure: acid splash: no save, no sr, can be combined w/ sneak attack, fell drain, fell animate (as a finishing move). too powerful for a level 0 spell ray of enfeeblement: no save, d6 str damage, and is useful at every level. too powerful for a level 1 spell. Acid splash: Metamagic feat raise the spell's level. One negative level for a level 3 spell is not broken, and if you can make someone end up between -2 and -9 consistently for Fell animate, you have some very friendly dice. As for SA, you get a bad excuse for an arrow to SA with a limited number of times per day. Big deal. RoE: 1. It's not damage, it's a str penalty. Meaning the highest number among multiple hits is all you use. 2. Just because it's useful for longer than 4 levels does not make it broken. The 45 str dragon is not going to care that you just took him down to 34 str (at the most); he's still going to tear you apart, it'll just take one more claw/bite/tail/wing hit. Any more? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Derren S. 08-12-05, 06:00 PM	As for SA, you get a bad excuse for an arrow to SA with a limited number of times per day. Big deal. So arrows in your game are always touch attacks? The 45 str dragon is not going to care that you just took him down to 34 str (at the most); he's still going to tear you apart, it'll just take one more claw/bite/tail/wing hit. Any more? But the Str 10 wizard will notice it when you take him down to 1 Str which leaves him lying helplessly on the floor unable to carry his own equipment. Ditto for most rogues. All that without a save of course. It are not the one with high strength which are hurt most by that spell.
Earthcrosser599 08-12-05, 06:07 PM	The only spell I think is a little too strong is Scholar's Touch. Anything else is fair game. IIRC Armageddon makes you lose a level. Instead of all those small celestials I'd just gate in a Solar or something. The whole efreet wish thing is something I'll have to use in my next game lol
green_yawgmoth 08-12-05, 06:08 PM	But the Str 30 fighter will notice it when you take him down to 19 Str which is a big disadvantage for him not to speak of the Wizard or Rogue who, when hit by this spell, can't even lift his their equipment anymore and lies helplessly on the floor. All that without a save of course. It are not the one with high strength which are hurt most by that spell. But if your DM is sending you against creatures with no SR to speak of, that are consistently loaded down with equipment that NEEDS to be carried around with them and cannot be dropped, AND that have a low str, then yes, it'll be broken. If your DM sends you up against nothing but fire elementals, then Cone of Cold is broken. If your DM sends nothing but hordes of undead at you, then a Cleric with the Sun domain would be broken. There's nothing in this spell that could be inherently broken, unless the DM has a massive hardon for 30 str fighters and 12 str rogues and nothing else. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Derren S. 08-12-05, 06:15 PM	Green, have you ever considered what would happen if the spell is casted against the party? Any humanoid who depends on equipment and has no phenomenal strength (so every non melee fighter) is rendered helpless by the spell unless he abandons most of his equipment which is now unprotected and the weapon and armor alone he carries will put him in medium load. A Str 10 wizard (which is realistic even at higher level) reduced to 1 Str who only carries normal clothing, a rod his spell component pouch and a single spellbook would already be at his maximum carrying capacity. But of course as your game your PCs apparently don't seem to meet anything but non equipment using monsters which also have no capability to use the spell against the party then yes, it is a bad spell as is charm person.
smrtgmp 08-12-05, 06:17 PM	IMO the term broken is thrown around far too often on these boards. I really disagree with some of the above spells. Yawgmoth already touched on two of them, so I wont repeat what he said (though I do agree with his take on the matter). The other one(s) mentioned above which I feel are in no way broken are the orb of x spells. Sure, they have the wonky flavor problem of being conjuration rather than evocation, but the damage they inflict is so mediocre that there is simply no way they will break a game. If you can't deal with an average of 24.5 damage at 7th level (or 52.5 damage at 15th level) to a single target once per round then you have no buisness being a DM. If the flavor bothers you than change it, but don't say the spells are broken when they clearly arent. In my game they are evocation spells, but I also have a house rule where elemental damage is not subject to SR (only energy resistance), so that whole aspect of conjuration vs. evocation is moot IMC. In case you're wondering, I did this to give evocation back its bite, and I havent had any balance issues with it as of yet (several years and running). Orb of force, however, is still subject to SR. The concept of non-magical magical force makes my head hurt. :uh-huh:
smrtgmp 08-12-05, 06:28 PM	Green, have you ever considered what would happen if the spell is casted against the party? Any humanoid who depends on equipment and has no phenomenal strength (so every non melee fighter) is rendered helpless by the spell unless he abandons most of his equipment which is now unprotected and the weapon and armor alone he carries will put him in medium load.By the time RoE is that effective you're capable of casting 4th-5th level spells. In that case, why would you spend your actions casting a 1st level spells at one target at a time? Especially when faced with multiple enemies? IMO, RoE is far more effective against a single big brawler than against multiple enemies. But then, that goes for any spell that only effects a single target. There's also the attack roll, which is hardly a given for your average arcane caster. Poor BAB, an average to mediocre dex score, probable multiclassing into poor BAB PrCs, and the lack of precise shot all make ranged touch attacks less than guaranteed. I cant even begin to count the times I've botched an attack roll with a ray (bye bye enervation :(). This is especially true when using them against enemy NPCs (such as the "helpless" rogue mentioned above), which generally have touch ACs that are much higher than those of the foes found in the MM. Throw concealment into the mix (which is VERY easy to get), and you're probably better off casting another spell and saving your RoE for the next giant you stumble across.
Derren S. 08-12-05, 06:33 PM	Single big brawler? You didn't actually read what I have written, did you? The spell is most devestating when casted against the big wizard, not the big brawler. The brawler gets only a reduction in attack and damage (still a big disadvantage) but the wizard is heavily encumbred or even helpless unless he abandons a majority of his equipment which possibly also includes things he could use in the combat. And even the big brawler might be forced to abandon his equipment at lower levels especially the ones who go full plate.
Centauri 08-12-05, 06:45 PM	52.5 damage at 15th level This constitutes Massive Damage and requires a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid instant death. Any character will fail the save at least 5% of the time.
Manyfist 08-12-05, 07:06 PM	I say all arcane and Divine. Yet that's just me. The most is, - Scorching Ray - Gate - Limited Wish - Wish - Miracle - Tons of others I can't think of right now.
Seeker95 08-12-05, 07:17 PM	Looks like Derren's idea of broken is anything that can effectively hinder his character in combat. And if a spell works the way it is supposed to (ray of enfeeblement), it is broken. And if you disagree with the way he thinks a spell is supposed to work (gate), you must obviously be wrong.
Seeker95 08-12-05, 07:20 PM	This constitutes Massive Damage and requires a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid instant death. Any character will fail the save at least 5% of the time.Oooh... such risky odds.
tiercel 08-12-05, 07:20 PM	In any situation where you can actually use it: web Even if you make your Reflex save, you are entangled, and have to hit Strength DC 15 to even move five feet (by spending a round devoted to moving). Breaking out entirely in a single round, if the web is centered on you, would require a Strength check of DC 30 (impossible unless you have a Strength of at least 30, and only a 5% chance at Str 30). Also ignores SR. Unless your victim can burn his way through, web always buys you some time in any situation where you can actually cast it (two solid, diametrically opposed points, which means most indoor/underground/city settings).
smrtgmp 08-12-05, 07:27 PM	Single big brawler? You didn't actually read what I have written, did you? The spell is most devestating when casted against the big wizard, not the big brawler. The brawler gets only a reduction in attack and damage (still a big disadvantage) but the wizard is heavily encumbred or even helpless unless he abandons a majority of his equipment which possibly also includes things he could use in the combat. And even the big brawler might be forced to abandon his equipment at lower levels especially the ones who go full plate.Yes, I read what you wrote, I just disagree with it. Rogues and wizards are bad targets for rays, as they have easy access to defense against it. Rogues have high touch ACs, and wizards have concealment/misdirection up the ass. And no wizard will be helpless, as they can still cast their spells, and are likely not carrying much to begin with. Furthermore, except at the lowest levels, chances are a wizard wont be moving under his own power. Thats what spells are for. This constitutes Massive Damage and requires a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid instant death. Any character will fail the save at least 5% of the time.And thats supposed to impress me? How does that make the spell broken? First of all, it precisely follows the reccomended damage cap for a single target 4th level arcane spell. Secondly, just about anything you do at 15th level is going to force a save that will screw you sideways. High level play is deadly.
jameswilliamogle 08-12-05, 07:46 PM	geez, well what is the definition of broken? i don't think any spell is broken given the right DM to counter it. as discussed in a different thread, a broken effect is an effect that every single character has to take into account otherwise is at a severe disadvantage (like 3.0 haste). if that's the case, then every spell is broken b/c every character has to worry about spells at some point. but then again, that's the nature of magic. how about if we give the spell we think is broken and explain why? like i said: acid splash is just too powerful for a 0 level spell, and RoE too powerful for a 1st level spell. do i really think they're broken? no, just overpowered for their level, but enough to warrant a mention. i really didn't mean to start a bonfire here.
Lord shadow35 08-12-05, 08:42 PM	More less i have to agree with smrtgmp. I don't think the orb spells are broken but they are very useful. Not much is accually broken. (But there are a few things that are) It is not always a dead lock(ROE) on wizards and certianly not rouges.
was_fired 08-12-05, 08:47 PM	A spell is broken if it: 1. Is a must have because it is so much better than any alternative. 2. If adding or removing it from the game fundementially alters how the world functions to the point that everyone MUST have X defense or else they WILL be destroyed by this attack. Polymorph for instance falls into the first catagory as it is the single best line of buffs out there to the point of blowing all other physical buffs out of the water. In the first cataogy we find spells like alter self which grants +5 natural armor at level 3 with lizard folk form and a strength boost. This can only be equalled by a 20th level druid casting barkskin... which stacks with the boost alter self gives. In the second catagory we find spells like the 3.0 haste where you had to have it to defeat a wizard with it. Likewise we find shapechange since once you have it foes must have dispel magic before they can harm you (see adding an amazing boost to AC, hp, and abilities like regeneration).
smrtgmp 08-12-05, 09:34 PM	I agree polymorph is a bit much for a 4th level spell. It should probably be 5th. However, it should be noted that alter self does not change your physical stats, so you wont get a str increase by turning into a lizard man. You can, however, get a +6 natural armor from the trogeldyte. However, Barkskin gives you an enhancement bonus to natural armor, which means it stacks with previously existing natural armor. It also has a range of touch, rather than personal, so it it better in that regards.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-12-05, 10:47 PM	A spell is broken if it: 1. Is a must have because it is so much better than any alternative. No. No, no,no,no,no. This is a very bad precident. A spell is good if its a must have, but not broken. A spell is broken when it does something on par with the guidlines, or existing spells of a higher level than itself. Magic Missile is a must have, but it is not broken. Polymorph isn't even a must have, but it is broken because of bad rules.
green_yawgmoth 08-12-05, 11:20 PM	Green, have you ever considered what would happen if the spell is casted against the party? Any humanoid who depends on equipment and has no phenomenal strength (so every non melee fighter) is rendered helpless by the spell unless he abandons most of his equipment which is now unprotected and the weapon and armor alone he carries will put him in medium load. A Str 10 wizard (which is realistic even at higher level) reduced to 1 Str who only carries normal clothing, a rod his spell component pouch and a single spellbook would already be at his maximum carrying capacity. But of course as your game your PCs apparently don't seem to meet anything but non equipment using monsters which also have no capability to use the spell against the party then yes, it is a bad spell as is charm person. Considering that clothing doesn't count against encumberance, and a spellbook can be dropped on the ground, it's not going to hinder him too much. But I think smrtgmp and seeker pretty much summed up anything else I was going to say. RoE is good, this is sure; but it is far, far away from broken. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-13-05, 12:00 AM	Considering that clothing doesn't count against encumberance, It would be awesome if they did though 'I have removed my pants -- prepare to die.'
green_yawgmoth 08-13-05, 12:19 AM	'I have removed my pants -- prepare to die.' Now one of my BBEGs has to say that in game. I'm thinking evil monk. :cool: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Epic Commoner 08-13-05, 02:11 AM	True Seeing makes 90% of all illusions useless, no matter what level they are. It single-handedly eliminates the threat of an entire school of magic.
Caros 08-13-05, 02:44 AM	Otto's Irresistable Dance is one of the main ones I find can be a killer at high level. Touch attack or be useless the remainder of the combat. That said, about ray of enfeeblement. 6th level spells gives you access to maximized empowered knock a lot of stuff out combat. 14 str damage will drop anything that isn't a primary fighter. Wizard, He has 1 str and can no longer lift his arms to cast spells. Rogue can't draw his bow, lift his swords or advance on you. Monk is at maybe 2-4 str. So much for all his abilities cuz he's now carrying at least a medium load. Cleric with an 18 starting strength is at 4, he buckles under the weight of his own 50lbs fullplate that he can't take off. Bard is useless anyways. Sorc, same as the wizard. Druid might still be viable as a charachter, maybe. Melee fighters just take penalties. The point is that at level 11, ray of enfeeblement can knock all but two of the base charachter classes (Fighter and bard) on their backsides unless those charachters added quite a bit to strength. Its a 1st level spell. (Most of this can apply at level 5 (6-11 damage) In that it disables most of the party members anyways.)
smrtgmp 08-13-05, 04:55 AM	Except what you're describing isnt a 1st level spell. Its a 6th level spell. You cant add a ton of metamagic and then still call it 1st level. True Seeing makes 90% of all illusions useless, no matter what level they are. It single-handedly eliminates the threat of an entire school of magic.Does it now? Last I checked it didn't do a thing against phantasms (which directly assault the mind), and even if you know a shadow spell is illusion you still take a partial effect. Furthermore, trueseeing's range of effect is only 120ft, which means anyone casting spells from medium range or further would still be protected by their illusionary defenses. If thats not enough, there's always Nondetection, which will force anyone using trueseeing to make a CL check. Granted, there is some debate over whether or not nondetection will protect against trueseeing, but I remember seeing an official response somewhere (either in the FAQ or a sage ruling or something) that indicated that it was a valid defense. So. There you go. Care to present any other blanket hyperboles that can be easily debunked?
Derren S. 08-13-05, 05:10 AM	Considering that clothing doesn't count against encumberance, and a spellbook can be dropped on the ground, it's not going to hinder him too much. But I think smrtgmp and seeker pretty much summed up anything else I was going to say. RoE is good, this is sure; but it is far, far away from broken. Dropping a spellbook. Smart idea and when the next fireball comes it is destroyed. Also the wizard doesn't have time to selectivly drop things, he has to abandon his whole backpack with all the money, spellbooks, mundane equipment and not readied magical equipment and all of it will be lost when an area attack follows or the wizard has to rethreat. Oh and for the concealment and high AC rogue, the wizard can always use true strike which trumps it all. And I don't give much about seekers opinion as he always tries to twist spell descriptions so that they look not broken when they obviously are not only here but also in the wraithstrike discussion. For him every spell which doesn't kill every creature in every situation at every time is not broken. But what should I expect when people argue with "Wizards always have low dex, multiclass into poor BAB classes and never bother to improve their ranged touch spells so the spell is not broken"
smrtgmp 08-13-05, 05:53 AM	And how many high stats do you have? Unless you play with some crazy point buy system or have the best dice ever, chances are you dont have a lot of high stats to throw around. I assume we can all agree that a wizard's highest stat will go into INT. From there, con or dex is probably the 2nd choice, with whatever's left over is 3rd. So, that gives you your 2nd or 3rd best stat into dex, which will probably put it somewhere between a 12 and a 16. Assuming you never take any spellcasting based PrCs (a rarity in this day and age), your BAB will stay at 1/2 your level. At 11th level (when RoE reaches its peak), you'll have a BAB of +5, and a ranged attack bonus of +6 to +8. Not too shabby at first glance. Factor in the penalty for firing into melee and the soft cover bonus provided by allies and your enemy's touch AC was just effectively raised 8 points. Granted, you could spend two feats on point blank shot and precise shot, but unless you're a gish, you probably dont have the feats to spare, given that you have to spend character level feats to get them. As far as truestrike and concealment go, woopty do. You just spent two rounds (or a 5th level slot if you want it quickened) to nail the rogue with one spell that might disable him. If you want to guarantee he takes the full penalty, then you'll have to maximize it, at which point its no longer a 1st level spell. Why not cast a few targeted fort/will save spells instead? You'll have a better chance of success. And I don't give much about seekers opinion...Thats a great way to get people to give a rat's ass about your opinion. From my time on the boards it seems like Seeker generally errs on the side of caution. Every time I've posted a spell he has been the one to suggest limiting factors to bring them into balance. I think the reason he doesnt crap his pants at the mere sight of a lot of supposedly (note: its NOT supposobly :rant: that wasnt directed at anyone in particular, BTW) "broken" spells is that he has been DMing for a long time and therefor is comfortable in his ability to adjucate a game so that it doesnt get out of control. If you are familiar/comfortable with the rules, then nothing as minor as RoE is going to break anything. It simply cant be done with a compotent DM at the helm.
Derren S. 08-13-05, 07:08 AM	Seeker has good suggestions how to unbreak spells, but that should be left to the individual DM. On a forum discussion, unless asked to provide your houserules/suggestion which was not done here stick to the RAW. I have overreacted, I apologice, but I really hate this behaviour when someone posts his houserules instead of the RAW when not asked, even if the houserules are good.
Seeker95 08-13-05, 01:41 PM	I really hate this behaviour when someone posts his houserules instead of the RAW when not asked, even if the houserules are good.As long as houserules are presented as houserules, it's fine. Offering house rules is a perfect way to assist in adjudicating a situation. The dispute you and I get into is that we disagree on what is RAW often enough that you are quick to charge "that's a fine house rule" as frequently as I am quick to charge "that's not how I see it". One major difference I see in our approach to these disagreements is that (I feel) I am less likely to turn such a disagreement into a "you're wrong and I'm right" argument. Nor am I (as I see it) as likely to take a disagreement with my opinion as some kind of personal crusade against me. (Turn such a disagreement into a personal crusade, and I respond much differently. We have a few no-longer-with-us Screen Names who did not quickly enough learn the difference between an attack on an idea and an attack against an idea-giver.) I find in many of these "broken spell" threads that I am also less likely to use emptional language in an attempt to make my opinion sound more important than it is. My hyperbole language is present, but it is usually offered in a way that is clearly intended as over-exaggeration. Lastly, in just about all of these opinion discussions, I am equally comfortable changing my opinion in light of exposure to a perspective that I had not considered as I am with holding onto my opinion because my experiences in my game are sufficiently different from your own that your perspective just doesn't seem to have a basis in game-table reality. This could just as easily be because our gaming experiences are different, but when placed into the context of the above discussion history observations, is more likely to be a reflection of discussion style.
jameswilliamogle 08-13-05, 02:59 PM	i think you guys should pm each other such things. anyways, why not just write what you feel is broken, and put a sentance why you think it is? there's no reason to debate about it - this thread is purely opinion. for example: acid splash- i think this is too powerful as a 0 level spell b/c of no SR. RoE- i think this is also too powerful as a level 1 spell b/c of metamagic effects making it capable of eliminating lots of opponents. poly- this one seems too powerful b/c of the level and the mechanics that make it work gate- probably is too powerful as written b/c of the "wish" creatures you can summon blasphemy- the example given on p.1 is a very potent combination shapechange- too powerful b/c of some of the SU abilities you can gain i also agree that many other spells listed here are broken as is, but you get the drift. most spells w/ no save no sr are overpowered.
green_yawgmoth 08-13-05, 03:27 PM	Why debate/discuss it? Because that's what you do on a forum. Also, most spells with both no save and sr are VERY weak. You cannot tell me that 1d3 damage, at most 6 times a day as a standard action, is anything NEAR broken. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
jameswilliamogle 08-13-05, 04:04 PM	yes i can. it's broken. b.r.o.k.e.n. i just said it. it's broken b/c it deserves a higher level than 0. and i'm right. this whole thread is opinion: nobody is wrong here, since it's about what people "feel" is broken. nobody defined what broken is, so i get to define it for myself as anything too powerful for it's level. what do you think is broken, by your own definition? this is just like the "shrink item" thread - it looked like funny reading until everyone just started posting "that wouldnt work b/c..." and then it was like reading court dictation.
green_yawgmoth 08-13-05, 04:19 PM	yes i can. it's broken. b.r.o.k.e.n. i just said it. it's broken b/c it deserves a higher level than 0. and i'm right. this whole thread is opinion: nobody is wrong here, since it's about what people "feel" is broken. nobody defined what broken is, so i get to define it for myself as anything too powerful for it's level. what do you think is broken, by your own definition? this is just like the "shrink item" thread - it looked like funny reading until everyone just started posting "that wouldnt work b/c..." and then it was like reading court dictation. You can say it, but that doesn't make you correct, or any less of a dick. I'd suggest you find this thing called "tact" before posting again. You are not right, the spell is not broken, and guess what! You have just joined my ignore list for being so obviously pretentious. Good job. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Derren S. 08-13-05, 04:22 PM	Wow, not even I manage it to get ignored so fast....
jameswilliamogle 08-13-05, 04:27 PM	you're overreacting. but whatever. i wanted to see what you considered broken, since you obviously think what i think is broken isn't, and to see if you think any spell is broken. if he wants to lurk and just debase other people's posts instead of putting his own thoughts up for analysis then i'm glad he's ignoring me.
bjorntfh 08-13-05, 04:54 PM	Personally, I'd say that Wraithstrike isn't broken, but it is overpowered for a 2nd level spell. If it were a 4rd level Wiz/sorc spell I could see it being balanced, but at 2nd it's VERY overpowered. My Gish grafted Fighter/Wizard/EK is insane when he goes off with the spell. (The more attacks you have, the more damage it does. This gets messy VERY quickly. Take Deep Spawn (gives 2 tentacle attacks at 1d6+str) TWF, ITWF, and oversized TWF (5 feats including Aberration blood) and at level 13 you've got 6 attacks 2 at -2, 2 at -7 (tentacles) and 2 secondary attacks that are getting +10 to damage each. That's trading a 2nd level spell for a possible +60 damage, usually around +50 since you're hitting on what often amounts to a 2+. It's a VERY dangerous spell, but would probably be balanced by disallowing PA with it.
smrtgmp 08-13-05, 06:54 PM	yes i can. it's broken. b.r.o.k.e.n. i just said it. it's broken b/c it deserves a higher level than 0. OK, I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, but how does it deserve to be higher than level 0? It is clearly inferior to every 1st level spell in the book, so what level should it be placed at? .5? I mean really. The only cantrip its really better than is ray of frost, but that sucks ass. I would prepare a prestidigitation or read or detect magic over acid splash any day. It is good for a sorcerer because its a nice MM delivery system, but at that point its no longer a 0 level spell.
smrtgmp 08-13-05, 06:57 PM	I have overreacted, I apologice...We all over react from time to time. Lord knows I'm guilty of it on a regular basis. :) I still think you make a lot of valid points, even if I disagree with many of them. At least you take the time to explain your position.
jameswilliamogle 08-13-05, 07:20 PM	I mean really. The only cantrip its really better than is ray of frost, but that sucks ass. I would prepare a prestidigitation or read or detect magic over acid splash any day. It is good for a sorcerer because its a nice MM delivery system, but at that point its no longer a 0 level spell.thanks for being clear and precise and not just screaming "your wrong". yes, i agree that it's worse than most 1st level spells as written - but how many 1st level spells can get past both saves and SR? that plus the fact that it can be combined w/ sneak attack alone make it better than a level 0 spell. again, that's just my opinion, and opinions are like (you-know-what) - everybody has one.
smrtgmp 08-13-05, 08:19 PM	Quite a few, actually. The lesser orb spells from CA all bypass saves and sr, and do up to 5d8 damage in the process. One thing to keep in mind is that these spells require an attack roll. This is a pretty big balancing factor at low levels when your ranged attack roll is nearly non existant as a spell caster. At that point its pretty much up to fate weather or not you hit. Granted, a UMD rogue wont have a hard time hitting for a sneak attack, but that means that he's only getting one per round. I'd be a lot more scared of a TWF rogue, but that could just be me.
jameswilliamogle 08-13-05, 08:38 PM	Quite a few, actually. The lesser orb spells from CA all bypass saves and sr, and do up to 5d8 damage in the process. One thing to keep in mind is that these spells require an attack roll. This is a pretty big balancing factor at low levels when your ranged attack roll is nearly non existant as a spell caster. At that point its pretty much up to fate weather or not you hit. Granted, a UMD rogue wont have a hard time hitting for a sneak attack, but that means that he's only getting one per round. I'd be a lot more scared of a TWF rogue, but that could just be me.ok, i can agree with this (i never look at the orb spells since i don't like the flavor of them). thanks for a civilized discussion.
smrtgmp 08-13-05, 09:09 PM	Any time. :)
jaelis 08-13-05, 09:39 PM	The only spells that consistently bug me are the ones where you can use them to do things that don't seem like they were really intended. The gate/wish cheese is a good example, as is the awaken cheese, the shapechange/vorpal sword cheese, the gate/plane shift cheese, several of the things you can do with polymorph any object, and maybe some things you can do with polymorph. But basically all of these can be overruled with some justice by a fair DM, so I wouldn't really say they were "broken." Just written in such a way that they are subject to abuse. As far as broken, meaning, "this spell is just way to good for its level", I don't think there really are any, at least core. If I had to pick one, though, I'd probably go with polymorph any object.
Derren S. 08-13-05, 09:41 PM	But basically all of these can be overruled with some justice by a fair DM So they are broken (Too powerfull unless houseruled by the DM) And the whole point of this thread is to identify those spells which should be houseruled.
jaelis 08-13-05, 10:28 PM	I guess I see a difference between "houseruled" and "interpreted in a sensible way." But we can call these broken if you want. I do agree they should be fixed. I just think they need to be fixed because they were written poorly, not because they are intrinsically overpowered.
Edymnion 08-13-05, 10:44 PM	Horribly overpowered world shattering results from using a single spell in an intelligent manner? Hypnotize and Astral Projection are the most broken spells in the game. The first one lets a lvl 1 sorcerer take over the world without ever shedding a single drop of blood, the other gives immortality, infinite wishes, and unlimited money. Most broken when used in conjunction with something else? Augury and the Deck of Many Things.
smrtgmp 08-13-05, 10:59 PM	Augury and the Deck of Many Things. Oooh. Thats a good one.
dark_muki 08-13-05, 11:00 PM	Yes, spells are powerful. That is way you kill spellcasters first and run away when you cant win. Their is always a way you can over come these odds. Find it, and your victory will be all the greater!
dark_muki 08-13-05, 11:01 PM	Oh, and one more thing. Your enemies are looking for ways to push the odds in their favor as well.
mr.unknown 08-13-05, 11:10 PM	Hypnotize and Astral Projection are the most broken spells in the game. The first one lets a lvl 1 sorcerer take over the world without ever shedding a single drop of blood, the other gives immortality, infinite wishes, and unlimited money. i'm certainly not that creative with the use of some spells. but how exactly do those two spells allow "taking over the world" & gaining unlimited wishes & money, respectively? i'm not ridiculing your suggestion, but can you elaborate on this claim a little more? 'cause just from the spell description of astral projection, it certainly doesn't suggest infinite wishes or money, immortality maybe... i'd certainly like to know how its done though.
Votan 08-13-05, 11:36 PM	RoE- i think this is also too powerful as a level 1 spell b/c of metamagic effects making it capable of eliminating lots of opponents. Many spells can be very effective when metamagic is applied. However, Ray of Enfeeblement is: a) Affected by SR b) Very short range c) requires a touch attack roll An empowered, maximized version of the spell does 11+1d3 points of strength reduction (the maximize does not maximize the empowered version). This requires 2 feats (which duplicate each other pretty closely) or expensive magic items. It only affects living beings. It can be dispelled. Then you use a 6th level slot. That includes gems like: Disintegrate Flesh to Stone (save or die, fort save) Circle of Death (area effect save or die, fort save) Mass Suggestion (area effect save or bad, will save) Repulsion Not bad for the company that it is keeping. Characters of this level may very well have strength items or spells or counters. Heck, contingency is a 6th level spell and could easily counter this. Good, yes. Amazing, possibily. Broken, hardly.
jameswilliamogle 08-14-05, 12:45 AM	RoE is bad b/c of this: it's insidious - it looks ok on the surface, then before you know it the wizard is using a lesser empower rod to drain 9 str a round(assuming memorized as maximized already), all as soon as 7th level (i'm not including the sudden feats - these don't even raise the level, and sudden maximized RoE are available at 1st for humans, and sudden max'd emp'd RoE are available at 3rd, before applying rods). it isn't as obviously broken as the gate / wish possibilities, but it's too powerful for a level 1 spell. there's been alot said about this already, but those 9 str will almost certainly eliminate any humanoid threats (save giant-types) within 2-3 turns. that's my contention anyway. wouldn't it make much more sense as a slightly higher level spell? i don't really think any spell is broken, except under the right circumstances (a DM who doesn't keep the lid on the power levels, or certain combinations of magical items). i've yet to play dnd with a dm that didn't know when to disallow certain power combos (and they can almost always do this in some way besides blatantly saying "no").
smrtgmp 08-14-05, 12:54 AM	With the addition of MM its no longer a 1st level spell. Furthermore, multiple castings do not stack, because the spell inflicts a str penalty rather than doing str damage. If RoE did str damage, then yes, it would be broken at 1st level. In other words, no matter how many times you cast it, a single target will never end up with more than a -11 to their str (assuming the base, non-MM'd spell).
Jolly Josh 08-14-05, 02:45 AM	wow... i forgot i started this thread.. glad for all the response... and about the argueing... its good to get these matters out in the air for others to see. :cool:
jameswilliamogle 08-14-05, 09:40 AM	If RoE did str damage, then yes, it would be broken at 1st level.omg. we've been playing it as str damage. no wonder. thanks again. btw, the particular metamagic feats Sudden Maximize and Sudden Empower don't raise the level past 1st, unless house-ruled otherwise (which my group has done - we've house ruled it to be identical to the incanatrix' instant metamagic ability post-errata, greatly nerfing these feats).
Jolly Josh 10-03-05, 06:48 PM	Would it be mean of me to pull this combo on my DM... Divine Metamagic Contingent Spell on a True Resurrection. Buff up to about 300 HP and cast Exalted Fury on his monsters? What about Armageddon with a thought bottle? Damn i'm mean
Seeker95 10-03-05, 07:10 PM	Would it be mean of me to pull this combo on my DM... Divine Metamagic Contingent Spell on a True Resurrection. Buff up to about 300 HP and cast Exalted Fury on his monsters?The first one is not exactly impressive. So you get resurrected when you die. You're not circumventing the system , just skipping the delay time. Combining it with the second is not impressive either. After all, by the time you can do any of this, the creatures you're fighting will probably make you wish you had considered something wiser than allowing yourself to be dead in front of them for ten minutes. If you have access to spells from the BoED, I bet they have acces to BoVD. Leaving your body in the hands of the enemy for ten minutes is a good way to make it impossible for true resurrection to work. Also, I hope you solo, or your party is going to be ticked off.
LordHell 10-03-05, 09:11 PM	Broken Core Spells off the top of my head: Polymorph. Shapechange. Gate [Mostly because of the fact you a 17th level caster can summon a CR23 Solar which has 20th level Cleric abilities, and arrows of slaying]. The Orb spells are not broken. They require a ranged touch attack roll and they only effect ONE target. Unless you're Wizard has invested feats in point blank shot, precise shot [Orb], then they are likely looking at a -8 penalty. Ray of Enfeeblement again is not broken. It is a ranged touch attack, again meaning you're likely looking at a -8 penalty in a lot of cases, and it does a STR PENALTY (not damage). It is a good spell to have, but a well placed grease can me much more devistating. Frostburn has a billion broken spells in it. Complete Divine has a few that make you think twice.
rat_bastard 10-03-05, 09:49 PM	so um, what is the awaken cheese? or the shrink item problem? I am very interested.
jaelis 10-03-05, 11:02 PM	Let's see if I can get the awaken cheese right. Assume you're a sorcerer. Cast/have someone cast polymorph on you to turn you into a rabbit. Since polymorph grants type, now you're an animal. So your friendly druid can cast awaken on you, which changes your mental stats. You pick up 3d6 intelligence, fine, but also get +1d3 charisma! You're also now a magical beast. Dismiss polymorph, and you're back to humanoid with a new intelligence and a nice charisma bonus. Now, repeat twenty times, stopping maybe sometime when you get a high int roll (if you even care). You pick up about +40 to your charisma score, which is worth way more than whatever it takes to pay off the 5000 XP the druid burned to do it for you. Not sure about the shrink item thing, maybe it's the trick of shrinking a boulder and then throwing it at your opponent and expanding it in flight. But that really doesn't work out legally with the actions involved (you can't dismiss the spell in the middle of your attack).
jaelis 10-03-05, 11:08 PM	Also, I just wanted to bring up a point about the gate/wish thing discussed earlier. Maybe you can make the efreeti grant your wishes and maybe you can't. But the fundamentally broken thing here is the efreeti. Three wishes is just way too much treasure value for a CR 8 creature. Forget about gate ... why wouldn't high level characters be hunting down and capturing every efreeti they could find? And if you play it so that, no matter what, you can't get a legitimate wish out of them, then basically you're just taking the ability away anyway.
Wrin777 10-04-05, 02:31 PM	RoE: 1. It's not damage, it's a str penalty. Meaning the highest number among multiple hits is all you use. 2. Just because it's useful for longer than 4 levels does not make it broken. The 45 str dragon is not going to care that you just took him down to 34 str (at the most); he's still going to tear you apart, it'll just take one more claw/bite/tail/wing hit. Any more? Yes. All penalties stack, even with themselves. It's even in the Does it Stack? RotG if I remember correctly. This means that you can make that dragon into a shrivelled worm with a few 1st level spells. Now personally, I just houserule that stacking penalties thing out and it works fine, but it's there in the RAW. Even if they don't stack, you can metamagic the darn thing. Pre-epic, this means you can empower it for a max of 14 str penalty for a level 3 spell, or maximize to always hit for 11 str, and at epic you can actually pull of an Intensify, so you get either 17 or 22 str penalty depending on your DM's interpretation of Intensify Spell. (The intensify use is actually kind of under-powered, though)
Seeker95 10-04-05, 02:45 PM	Yes. All penalties stack, even with themselves. [...] it's there in the RAW.Reference? Book/Page/Paragraph?
arbanafal 10-04-05, 04:38 PM	and at epic you can actually pull of an Intensify, so you get either 17 or 22 str penalty depending on your DM's interpretation of Intensify Spell. (The intensify use is actually kind of under-powered, though) OOOooohohohh, I'm shaking. Elminster can make one creature do up to 10 points less damage per hit, with a minus 10 to hit. :P Don't want to rock you're world, but anything that is boosted by epic feats becomes a little broken...which is no problem, because all epic monsters seem to originate from the quasi-elemental plane of munchkinny whoop-ass. Low level spells boosted by multiple MM feats aren't broken just because they are suddenly useful at that higher level. They are just...usefull. Monsers grow with the party, remember. At those levels casters have better spells to cast most of the time...there has to be SOME reason to still cast lower level spells. Broken spells function well enough on their own. A good example of an obviously broken spell was haste. This 3rd level spell, not only gave an extra attack (yawn), but was a very, very, very cheap way of emulating the quicken spell feat, without the +4 lvl adj. RoE isn't broken just because it remains usefull at higher levels. As someone pointed out earlier, at higher levels your monsters won't care for your first level spell. MM-Boostin it to 6th lvl (as someone also mentioned) makes it a 6th lvl spell choice...it better be usefull! As a 6th lvl spell it is not broken at all. Gate's place in the broken-hierarchy is debatable, because it is clearly so much better than summon monster IX. The xp price compensates for this...but it can be argued that this remains insufficient. Whether gate is overpowered, or summon monster IX is severely underpowered is left up to each individual DM to decide. If I had to choose a spell I'd consider broken, it would be simbul's spell matrix. To many spells to be released instantly. It almost resulted in a TPK, every time we came accross it. We eliminated it from our game.
Wrin777 10-05-05, 10:57 AM	Reference? Book/Page/Paragraph? Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus works (see Combining Magical Effects, below). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one. I was mistaken. I seemed to remember having looked that up near the end of an argument in a campaign I was in once, and I'm glad that either I remembered wrong or it has been fixed. ~ Wrin
tiercel 10-05-05, 05:11 PM	Let's see if I can get the awaken cheese right. Assume you're a sorcerer. Cast/have someone cast polymorph on you to turn you into a rabbit. Since polymorph grants type, now you're an animal. So your friendly druid can cast awaken on you, which changes your mental stats. You pick up 3d6 intelligence, fine, but also get +1d3 charisma! You're also now a magical beast. Dismiss polymorph, and you're back to humanoid with a new intelligence and a nice charisma bonus. Oh, it's worse than this. For one, you don't go back to humanoid -- awaken changes your type to magical beast, and has a duration of Instantaneous instead of Permanent. Awaken doesn't wear off in any way because polymorph does. The other fun part about awaken is that it gives you +2 HD. Since generally PC races advance by class levels, presumably this means you gain two levels. The only downside is that this probably eventually stops the infinite recursion, since awaken only works if the caster can make a Will save of (DC 10 + current HD). The other fun thing is that if your local druid is getting all granola-Zen about "not upsetting the balance" with awaken cheese, you can just do it yourself with limited wish. I don't think any DM in their right mind would actually allow this, but it's sitting there in the rules. As for the Deck of Many Things/augury combo, well, 1) a DM who introduces the DoMT probably deserves whatever happens and 2) if a player is going to argue "the DoMT never says it isn't affected by divinations" then the DM can argue "the DoMT never says that the cards are in any way randomized/shuffled."
Seeker95 10-05-05, 05:23 PM	The other fun part about awaken is that it gives you +2 HD. Since generally PC races advance by class levels, presumably this means you gain two levels.You gain two Racial HD, just like HD advancement with any other creature..
Mystyc 10-05-05, 05:31 PM	You gain two Racial HD, just like HD advancement with any other creature.. What is a Human's hit die? What good saves does a Human have? What are a Human's class skills, and how many skill points does it get?
Purkake 10-05-05, 06:13 PM	Here you go: (from the SRD) Humanoid Type A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype. Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws. Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type. Features A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). * 8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class. * Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric). * Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies). * Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class. Traits A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). * Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. * Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. * Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.
Seeker95 10-05-05, 06:29 PM	Thanks Purkake!
Kyuketsukiouji 10-05-05, 06:49 PM	Oh, it's worse than this. For one, you don't go back to humanoid -- awaken changes your type to magical beast, and has a duration of Instantaneous instead of Permanent. Awaken doesn't wear off in any way because polymorph does. The other fun part about awaken is that it gives you +2 HD. Since generally PC races advance by class levels, presumably this means you gain two levels. The only downside is that this probably eventually stops the infinite recursion, since awaken only works if the caster can make a Will save of (DC 10 + current HD). Uhh..."the only downside"? Are we forgetting the small, minor detail that you're spending the rest of your life as a rabbit now? You're a rabbit! A rabbit! A small furry animal considered food by most wild animals, humanoids, and civilised races! Not a powerful sorcerer, stew ingredient! What's the penalty to bluff for being a cute furry critter? Diplomacy? Prices at the store? You are spending the rest of your mortal life as a talking rabbit. Can you imagine the slew of penalties associated with that? You'll have to throw away every magic item you own, for starters, since your "cloak of charisma" is now a "tent of charisma". Whatever meager combat ability you had is now utterly gone. You don't even have opposable thumbs anymore. You'll have to polymorph back into a humanoid for any kind of civilised interaction, and anyone with True Sight is going to wonder exactly why a rabit is posing as a human. The kind of mindset that considers spending the rest of it's life as an animal for a 1-3 point boost to Charisma a good thing staggers me.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-05-05, 07:37 PM	You said it yourself: Polymorph. How many people have True Seeing up all the time and won't understand the concept of sacrificing your human form to become more powerful. RP restrictions do nothing for balance.
Seeker95 10-05-05, 08:23 PM	RP restrictions do nothing for balance.Them's fightin' words. :P
Purkake 10-05-05, 08:35 PM	Thanks Purkake! You're welcome :)
Alekzandr 10-05-05, 11:06 PM	Lessser Globe of Invulnerability. Its greater version is better in that it stops spells that are two levels below it, but this spell just ruins all the best 1st-3ed level spells: Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Charm Person, Fireball, Ray of Enfeeblement, the Lesser Orb of (blank) spells, ect. Pain in the ass. One 7th level wizard can utterly shut down an equivalent level sorcerer with this spell, not to mention a party; because even if your pary has a wizard, he has only one 4th level spell slot that can be used against a so warded creature. The only way around this is the Heighten Spell metamagic, but that totaly screws with the metamagic Sorcerers depend on for versilitility. On further examination, Meta Magic(ed) spells count as a spell of the slot used to cast it for determining wether or not (Lessser) Globe of Invulnerability affects it. So an Empowered Scorching Ray would penetrate the abjuration. Targeted Dispell could work too, but it is still a crap-shoot at best, and the ONLY counter. It is a must have spell, and, if not broke, extreamly powerful and potent.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-05-05, 11:26 PM	On further examination, Meta Magic(ed) spells count as a spell of the slot used to cast it for determining wether or not (Lessser) Globe of Invulnerability affects it. So an Empowered Scorching Ray would penetrate the abjuration. No. The only metamagic feat this is true with is Heighten. None of the others change the spell level.
Alekzandr 10-06-05, 12:55 AM	If a given spell has more than one level depending on which character class is casting it, use the level appropriate to the caster to determine whether lesser globe of invulnerability stops it. Forgive me, but I was confused by the last two lines above the material component blurb. Evedently it is talking about how a specific bard spell could be 3ed level, but that same spell is also available to wizards as a fourth level spell; and how cleric domain spell are ofter of higher level than the same spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. Still screws the Sorcerer, and the Wizard, and the Bard (or any partial caster class) at level 7, and cuts off a third of the sorcerer's casting power (no more Empowered-Twinned-Energy Sub(Electricity) Fireballs, because it STILL counts as a 3ed level spell). The Bard is toast. Half his spellcasting is gone, not to mention glibness (which has a chance to function in a Zone of Truth) is shut down. Remember kids: (sneak attack) Acid Splash, (Empowered-Twinned) Magic Missile, Suggestion, (Empowered-Twinned) Scorching Ray, Ray of Enfeeblement, and any other (so called broke/uber/)powerful 0-3ed level spell or spell combination is stopped cold. You DMs just have to remember to set up the Uber Abjurations before hand (Time Stop + Globe of Invunrability + x1-x3 castings of Spell Turning + Gate/Mind Blank/Sphere of ultimate destruction/Ready action: Teleport if hp falls below 1/2/Ready Action: Disjunction when Time Stop ends) and your players are screwed. There is no combo a player can put off that a DM can't out do. just read the rules and shudder at what magic can actually do. Case in point: Pun-Pun the 12th level God was origionally designed as an psionic egoist. what few people remember though is that later in the thread it was discovered that a correctly built wizard can duplicate Pun-Pun's trick (and ascention to godhood) at level 7.
belewda 10-06-05, 03:48 PM	Green, have you ever considered what would happen if the spell is casted against the party? Any humanoid who depends on equipment and has no phenomenal strength (so every non melee fighter) is rendered helpless by the spell unless he abandons most of his equipment which is now unprotected and the weapon and armor alone he carries will put him in medium load. A Str 10 wizard (which is realistic even at higher level) reduced to 1 Str who only carries normal clothing, a rod his spell component pouch and a single spellbook would already be at his maximum carrying capacity. But of course as your game your PCs apparently don't seem to meet anything but non equipment using monsters which also have no capability to use the spell against the party then yes, it is a bad spell as is charm person. What would happen is a quick dispel magic and a continuation of the fight. Any wizard who is crippled by a ray of enfeeblement doesn't deserve to be a wizard anyway. If your wizard isn't high enough level for a dispel magic, he probably wasn't doing much in the fight but hoping that a random raindrop or strong gust of wind didn't squish him. :P
Derren S. 10-06-05, 03:52 PM	A stilled dispell I hope as the wizard is so encumbered that he can't move.
Vaelan 10-06-05, 04:29 PM	A stilled dispell I hope as the wizard is so encumbered that he can't move. I'm not seeing the rule that states a Wizard that is encumbered can't move his arms well enough to cast a spell with somatic components. Would you like to point it out to me? One would imagine that the Wizard would be unable to remain standing and would fall over. The likelyhood that both of his arms are pinned down by his equipment, the only reason why he would be unable to cast spells, seems rather small.
Derren S. 10-06-05, 05:30 PM	There is no rule for this except common sense. So, this probably means in your opinion that you suffer no consequences of carrying over your maximum load at all. At the same time lets remove Arcane spell failure for armor. When you can cast freely when your clothing weights more than you can carry, why should a full plate prevent you from casting. Do a little experiment, ok? Lay down on the floor, get someone to sit on you (representing the encumbrance from clothing and equipment, bind 10-20 lb weights to your arms (also representing clothing) and then try to do complicated arm movements.
Seeker95 10-06-05, 06:14 PM	Derren: You start your reply with a reference to common sense, and then ignore it for the remainder of the post. You are creating artificial conditions that defy common sense. Encumbered is not "too much weight to breathe". It is simply "too much wiehg to walk". Encumbrance affects your ability to engage in walking, flying, etc. Nothing in the rules indicate you lose your ability to make a Reflex saving through when encumbered. Unless you intend to place all of your encumbrance on your forearms, it is unlikely that your ability to gesture wildly or dramatically is imposed in the least. Your comparison to arcane spell failure for armor is equally faulty. Wearing plates of metal on your arms is likely to result in some impediment to arm movement. Placing too many coins in your backpack is not going to prevent you from scratching your nose or doing anything else that requires arm and hand movements. Just don't try to take a steady step when you do so. Vaelan: Nothing in the rules prevents you from casting spells when encumbered. Houseruling that it does, as it appears Derren has done in his campaign, is certainly reasonable, but it is a houserule nonetheless.
Moon-Lancer 10-06-05, 06:29 PM	"RP restrictions do nothing for balance." only if someone doesent care about roleplaying. Anyway i feel that vop does a good job at rp restrictions. May I ask, does anyone think kelpstrand, salt ray, and splinter bolt are alittle too powerfull for a level 2 spells. Does anyone think they are broken. Can anyone give me an argument that they are just fine? These spells are in the retired articles under far conners of the world.
tiercel 10-06-05, 06:40 PM	Uhh..."the only downside"? Are we forgetting the small, minor detail that you're spending the rest of your life as a rabbit now?I misspoke a bit here. It's not that your shape doesn't revert to normal at the end of the polymorph spell; it does. Awaken has no effect on your shape, so when polymorph ends, so does its shapechanging. I should not have said "you don't revert to humanoid," I should have said "you don't revert to humanoid type." You get to keep your humanoid shape and ability scores, only your type is now [Magical Beast]. I think this is really, really stupid, but there it is.
Derren S. 10-06-05, 06:41 PM	You are probably right but at least there should be some ASF as the normal clothing weights, when enfeebled to str 1, as much to the wizard as fullplate normally would. The encumbrance isn't concentrated on the arms, but neither are the muscles. But this issue is a big hole in the rule which should be clarified by Rules of the Game articles. At least it is not as bad as starving rules...
Xavier_of_Cormyr 10-07-05, 12:55 PM	a lot of the spells being mentioned aren't "broken" at all. most have a major drawback (XP loss for the caster, special material components, etc) or require an attack roll, (spellcasters suck at attack rolls in case anyone forgot) and some have saves or a very limited range or area of effect. Things seem pretty balanced to me overall. now, there are SOME spells that are flirting with being "broken", but all of those spells are from OPTIONAL rulebooks (BoVD, BoED, etc), and should be up to your DM to allow or exclude that spell- or make it a very, very hard spell to come by. So don't have every evil mage walking around with the "Apocolypse from the Sky" spell handy on a scroll.
allencon 10-07-05, 01:34 PM	I have seen much debate and ranting about certain spells not functioning properly, but in most cases all I have seen is less to do with the spell as it is written achieving an improper effect in terms of ratio to level, cost, and time, as to people engineering fiendish and outright repulsive manipulation of rules to achieve various results that grossly violate the spirit of the rule governing how the designers saw the spell being used. Let's look at this way. If anyone who has ever played Magic the Gathering card game knows, over many editions, numerous cards have come in and out of legitimacy because combinations have happened that made what seemed balance to be utterly overpowered and inappropriately disproportionate. The big challenge facing the designers of DnD is that there will always be those gamers and Dm's who rather than forgetting the primary function of the game - STORYTELLING - and use it as an over the table version of a video game without the benefit of a monitor or controllers. This doesn't mean that sound character concpet design and optimizing what the classes do best is wrong, rather it is when maximizing every possible leveragable advantadge granted by a class feature, or as to the topic of this discussion spells and magic, goes to such extreme and inproper means, the normal balancing mechanics within the game fail. DnD cannot realistically reprint themselves every other week to counter the latest legal lunatic who devises a diabolical manipulation of rules to the point they contort in circles. Some of the scenarios presented here do clearly show how X spell can be abused. Guess what? Selfish people and meglamanics at the table on either side of the screen aren't going to care or stop if all the allegedly "broken spells" are gutted, removed or "fixed." So let us say we "fix" the current situation for which a spell is broken in a bizarre manipulation or improper combination, what do we do when the munchkinites find another method to "break" the same spell again? Taken to its extreme end one might as well get rid of magic, magic items, magical beasts, non-humans, extraordinary abilities, special abilities, and anything that doesn't genuinely reflect reality as somehow someway a munchkin will find a way to break it. All I'm saying is rather than tossing the baby out with the wash water because the infant peed in the tub, it might be better for Dm's to remember they can simply say NO to these absurd manipulation of spells. To be fair to the game designers there is no way they could honestly expect to think of every twisted permutation from the munchkin league. So let's not despair and abandon spells, but adhere closesly to how they are ruled. The spirit of the law and rule governing these spells should be axiomatic and counter unorthodox or unsound manipulations of what they can do to achieve results not intended by the designers.
arbanafal 10-07-05, 02:34 PM	I agree with you. DnD should be played as a game with the rules being applied in its spirit, rather than its letter. Having said that even our group, and even I have sometimes fallen into the trap of exploiting a hole in the laws of DnD. Not out of malice, or egotism, but because of enthousiasm gone too far. I think this might be the case for a lot of other players as well. Sometimes my DM makes a logical point with which I can find no quarrel, sometimes not. This will mostly determine whether I or another group member persist, or not. I also think, judging by a lot of discussions on this board, that the discussion about game mechanics tend to be hypothetical more than that they are bugging people in play. The second largest majority seems to be DMs surprised by a player's decission and explanation of the rules. 9 out of 10 times, these apparently broken rules were misunderstanding of the rules, or overblown fears of game-balance issues. Sucks, but it will always be there.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 10-08-05, 01:56 PM	Amen! Down with rules-lawyers!
jaelis 10-09-05, 12:39 AM	You know, people always pick on the lawyers, but without them, we wouldn't have law.
Dioxin 10-09-05, 02:00 AM	At the same time lets remove Arcane spell failure for armor. When you can cast freely when your clothing weights more than you can carry, why should a full plate prevent you from casting. I totally agree. Cloth is pound for pound far more restricting to movement than rigid interlocking steel plates.
Dioxin 10-09-05, 02:01 AM	You know, people always pick on the lawyers, but without them, we wouldn't have law. The day when lawyers are the ones writing all the laws is the day I swear off laws for good.
Seeker95 10-09-05, 09:41 AM	The day when lawyers are the ones writing all the laws is the day I swear off laws for good.I hope you don't live in the United States. Check out the pre-election professions of the majority of the 535 members of Congress!
Father Tim 10-10-05, 08:29 AM	Mass Fire Shield (Complete Arcane) - It's only one level higher than regular Fire Shield, which is 'Personal' and can't even be cast on other people. So for plus one level we get ten times the number of benificiaries, at close range, for a single standard action. Mass Resists Energy (Complete Arcane) - At caster level 7 it's 20 points of eneregy resistance for the entire party, of a type chosen at the moment of casting. Encounter a pile of Kuo-toa or arrowhawks? Poof, instant electrical resist. Jumped by Azer & salamanders? Poof, instant fire resist. Enemy sorceror? Ready an action and a Spellcraft check to cast MRE as soon as you identify what spell he's casting. Guy with wand? Same thing. Dispel Magic can't be the answer; all else being equal it's only 50% effective and requiring two 3rd level spells to counter a single one just isn't right.
tiercel 10-10-05, 05:49 PM	...it might be better for Dm's to remember they can simply say NO to these absurd manipulation of spells. To be fair to the game designers there is no way they could honestly expect to think of every twisted permutation from the munchkin league. So let's not despair and abandon spells, but adhere closesly to how they are ruled. The spirit of the law and rule governing these spells should be axiomatic and counter unorthodox or unsound manipulations of what they can do to achieve results not intended by the designers. Well, what I see are at least two kinds of "broken" that get thrown around: 1) The spell seems intrinsically overpowered or problematic, even when used as intended. For example, you could potentially argue that the benefits of polymorph: troll are very, very strong for a spell of its level; and troll-form is a straightforward, non-munchkin choice right within the spirit of the spell. Disjunction is another controversial Core spell, just used straight-up (without any fancy rules twisting or combos). 2) The spell might be OK, except that there are specific uses, abuses, choices, or combos that could be problematic. For example, the awaken cheese, or the shapechange: balor cheese, using iron body to greatly increase your mass and then trying to inflict massive falling damage due to weight, etc. DM common sense should be able to deal with either of these scenarios (though usually the second scenario is easier to deal with than the first -- if you find a particular application to be cheese, you can just say NO, find another way to use the spell; if you find a spell to be problematic in and of itself, then you are faced with changing it or banning it or specifically working around it, which is a trickier decision). Threads like this aren't here necessarily to say "OMG THEEZ SPELZ R SO BROKEN I WILL N00K THEM ALL" but as warning flags to say, hey, heads up DMs -- you could have a problem here, you might want to think about this before it comes up in the game. This way you don't unwittingly agree to cheese, or don't get caught having to make a ruling on a spell you hadn't thought about before.
Seeker95 10-10-05, 07:53 PM	tiercel, why'd you have to go and get all reasonable on us? :P
Moon-Lancer 10-10-05, 08:10 PM	Seeker95 I do live in the united stats, and I know all to well the Mortality of My Country. It’s depressing and fightining. Anyway. Did anyone check out splinter bolt, salt ray and kept strand? are they Too powerful? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040131a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a They SEEM powerfull but i love them as spells but i dont want to be to overpowerd.
Votan 10-10-05, 09:22 PM	Seeker95 I do live in the united stats, and I know all to well the Mortality My Country. It’s depressing and fighting. Anyway. Did anyone check out splinter bolt, salt ray and kept strand? are they Too powerful? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040131a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a They SEEM powerfull but i love them as spells but i dont want to be to overpowerd. Splinter bolt requires a to hit roll for a ranged (not ranged touch) attack. It is less powerful overall than Scorching ray as far as I can tell which is another 2nd level wizard spell. It's a bit rough for a druid to have as it really does nice thigns for a level 3 druid. Salt ray is okay except for the second ray near water stuff. Otherwise it is a perfectly okay attack spell. Again, some concern with a druid having it. The palalyzing isn't anything special compared to orb spells. Kelp strand appears a little too good for taking out arcane casters and such. It allows you to grapple a few too many opponents for my taste. It ends up being better than hold person -- if not by a huge amount -- by virtueof multiple targets. Good spells for a low level druid and perhaps they augment that class a bit too much as part of the balance of a druid is having a weaker spell list than clerics or arcane casters.
Link182 10-10-05, 09:40 PM	Alot of spells from Frostburn had to be nerfed for my game. That one drops the temp down 3 levels and turns everyone to ice for example. Is it called Frostburn? Not sure. Its rough.
Bossrocket 10-14-05, 06:40 PM	Can I get peoples opinions on the proper use and brokenness of the following three spells? Fire Seeds (PHB) The hollyberry bombs seem to be capable of incredible damage when You can create up to 8 bombs, each of which does 1d8 + caster level of damage. A 12th level caster is thus doing, on average, 4.5X8+8*12 damage = 132 pts of damage (failed save). This seems out of whack to me. Hammer of Righteousness (BoED): IF the target is evil, this third level spell can do 1d8 per caster level, with no cap on the caster level. Compared to Fireball this seems out of whack. Superior Resistance (Savage Species): +6 to all saving throws for hours at a time? Where to begin? I'm using the term "broken" to mean unbalanced when compared to similiar-type spells of the same level. I'm not even going in the cheese-when-you-think-of-this-clever-way-to-use-the-spell arena of which these spells do not qualify. Also, Can somebody PLEASE tell me if Hammer of Righteousness can damage undead? I know It requires a fort. save, and undead are immune to all damaging spells that require fort saves (unless objects are also affected), but the spell description goes to great lengths to say that the damage is a force effect and is of positive energy....which seems to me to be right up the incorporeal undead damaging alley. Are there any incoporeal creatures that are NOT undead? And last, but not least, be gentle if I'm not 100% accurate with the above information, I don't have the books in front of me right now, and won't for a while.....but I believe the gist of the information I provided above is correct. Thanks Friends
Rurikmage 10-17-05, 03:50 PM	Most descriptions of "broken-ness" include mis-reading of some rules and applying a backwards interpretation of "common sense" for the rest of the argument. If your DM allows you to get away with that then find a new group. RP restrictions balance everything out in some campaigns, not in others. It depends upon the players and the DM. Ray of Enfeeblement: Penalty does not equal damage It is easy to dispel or retreat and wait a few minutes or have lesser restoration cast (or use a potion of lesser restoration). Requires ranged touch attack & SR (an issue by the time you get 1d6+5) Hammer of Rightousness: Many dismiss BoED outright as being broken. I think they are forgetting the part about it being used only in campaigns that also use BoVD. BALANCE RESTORED. As for the force effect, affecting only evil, and it being a BoED spell, YES IT SHOULD WORK ON UNDEAD, AND SPECIFICALLY INCORPORAL UNDEAD. After re-reading it, I believe that the spell should be usable against objects as well (you can have evil-aligned weapons, intelligent magic items, etc.). A cap on the damage would make sense, and/or maybe making it 4th level instead of 3rd level. But it is difficult to judge as you give up quite a bit to be able to cast it. Fire Seeds: The druid does seem to have the most effective offensive spell in the group. Don't know what to say, except that there should either be a cap (1d8+ 1 per caster level (max 15) per seed) or slower progression (1d8+ 1 per two caster levels per seed). Thoughts? Superior Resistance: +6 to all saves for many hours is pretty good, and a must have 5th level spell (usually an indication that it is too powerful for that level). I have not seen an erata on Savage Species, but I could see modifying the duration (10 minutes per level instead of 1 hour per level), the bonus (+4 instead of +6), or the spell level (6th instead of 5th). Remember that a cloak of resistance +5 is relatively cheap, lasts 24/7, and does not stack with the spell.
green_yawgmoth 10-17-05, 04:31 PM	BoED is broken with or without the BoVD. The only thing taking the BoVD away does to the BoED is make a gnome's handful of spells useless, because they specifically counter certain BoVD spells. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
tiercel 10-17-05, 05:43 PM	Superior Resistance (Savage Species): +6 to all saving throws for hours at a time? Where to begin? Well, for comparison, there is protection from spells. It gives a +8 resistance bonus to saves, but only against spells and spell-like abilities. It can target multiple creatures (1 per four caster levels) but involves an expensive material component as well as expensive foci. It lasts 10 min/level. It is an 8th level spell. I can understand why they had the idea of a superior resistance spell in Savage Species (after all, many monstrous races might not be able to easily wear a cloak of resistance, though probably most could wear some kind of specially-tailored vest of resistance or something) -- but the bonus given should probably start at +3 or so and scale up with level. Also, wasn't Savage Species 3.0? 3.0 buffing spells typically had longer durations than their 3.5 equivalents.
Bossrocket 10-17-05, 06:03 PM	Does anyone know when/if there will be a 3.0 to 3.5 FAQ/Errata for BoED? Or if there is not one coming, why? Also, Ruikmage.... I think Fireseeds has a typo and should be 1d8+1 per seed, 1 seed per caster level, max number of seeds = 8. That seems perfectly balance to me. An average of 5.5 pts of damage per caster level is quite potent. I, myself, do not understand the huge debate over ROE. I see it as a powerful 1st level spell, but not a spell that is game-changing or unbalanced. Also, which book is "protection from spells" found in? Is it arcane or divine. I profess, embarassingly, that I am MUCH more familiar with divine spells than arcane....so if this spell is found in the PHB, let me scamper off to my little corner and cry by myself in peace.....thanks. Bossrocket
Rurikmage 10-17-05, 06:39 PM	Protection from Spells: Abjuration Level: Magic 8, Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S, M, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Targets: Up to one creature touched per four levels Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) PHB page 266. Material component is 500 gp diamond dust. Focus is 1000 gp diamond per target. It gives +8 resistance save bonus vs. spells and spell like abilities (not supernatural and extraordinary abilities). Superior Resistance: I agree that it could be scaled... +1 resistance bonus plus an additional +1 per four levels to a maximum of +6 at 20th level... or simply +1 per three levels to a maximum of +6 at 18th level. The other thought is to make the material component costly. At some point, it becomes more economical to get/craft a cloak of resistance +5 (25,000 gp for +5 bonus to all saves all the time) BTW: Savage Species was released in February 2003. 3.5 Core books were released in July 2003. Savage Species is one of the last 3.0 books. Fire Seeds: I think Fireseeds has a typo and should be 1d8+1 per seed, 1 seed per caster level, max number of seeds = 8. That seems perfectly balance to me. An average of 5.5 pts of damage per caster level is quite potent. That sounds reasonable, but the text is very clear. I keep waiting for an errata on that spell, but none has come.
MysteryGilgamesh 10-17-05, 06:55 PM	I keep waiting for an errata on that spell, but none has come. And it never will. WotC is pretty unapologetic in it's blatent overpowering of divine spells. I was honestly surprised that Harm actually got errata'd in 3.5, and even then, it's still one of the best "You die!" spells in the game.
JBW 10-19-05, 02:01 PM	It has already been mentioned, but Spikes from Complete Divine almost ruined my game. At 9th level, every damn character felt compelled to "upgrade" to a wooden weapon to keep up with the massive damage ouput that an Extended Spikes spell provided. I'd really have no problem with this spell if the duration was reduced to 1 round/level (maybe 1 minute/level). Quill Blast, also from Complete Divine, is silly for a number of reasons: 1) Big creatures take more from the spell than smaller creatures. 2) The damage can be as high as 24d6 to a huge or bigger creature at CL 7. 3) The penalties are insane - even if you make the save. 4) More damage when you take the quills out, and it takes several actions to get them all. I simply banned this spell outright as it would take far too much work to fix it. Jay
MysteryGilgamesh 10-20-05, 12:06 PM	It has already been mentioned, but Spikes from Complete Divine almost ruined my game. At 9th level, every damn character felt compelled to "upgrade" to a wooden weapon to keep up with the massive damage ouput that an Extended Spikes spell provided. I'd really have no problem with this spell if the duration was reduced to 1 round/level (maybe 1 minute/level). Quill Blast, also from Complete Divine, is silly for a number of reasons: 1) Big creatures take more from the spell than smaller creatures. On Spikes: Does no foe have access to Dispel Magic? An area dispel will ruin all of their Spiked wooden weapon using days, as will sundering, disarming, grappling...Basically anything that denies melee use will mess with them. Even a simple Web spell will screw up most anyone using melee stuff. On Quill Blast: It makes perfect sense that bigger creatures take more damage from it. You're basically firing a wall of spikes at someone. It's fairly logical bigger targets would take more quills, and thus more damage. But yeah. Divine magic is hideously unbalanced compared to arcane...
JBW 10-20-05, 12:47 PM	On Quill Blast: It makes perfect sense that bigger creatures take more damage from it. You're basically firing a wall of spikes at someone. It's fairly logical bigger targets would take more quills, and thus more damage. No, it doesn't. Fireball doesn't do more damage to larger targets despite the fact that they have a larger area exposed to the flames. Cone of Cold doesn't either. In fact, the only other spell I know of that uses "the bigger they are the more damage they take" foolishness is Slime Wave, another Complete Divine spell that I feel is poorly made. Step back from your supposed 'logic' and look at existing game mechanics when checking to see if something is broken or not. On Spikes: Does no foe have access to Dispel Magic? An area dispel will ruin all of their Spiked wooden weapon using days, as will sundering, disarming, grappling...Basically anything that denies melee use will mess with them. Even a simple Web spell will screw up most anyone using melee stuff. Many foes do not have access to Dispel Magic. Several types of giants, many undead, and a wide variety of other creatures often have no spellcasting capacity. As for the rest, it doesn't deny the fact that when they can use weapons, the Spikes-enhanced weapons are better. Your argument is like saying that it doesn't matter whether you drive a Dodge Viper or a Dodge Colt...both are useless without gasoline. This misses the point because there are many times when you'll have gas and be able to go out for a drive. For this point, there are still many times when melee combat will be a big part of an adventure, and Spikes has too much of an effect on these encounters to be balanced. Jay
tiercel 10-20-05, 02:44 PM	JBW makes a good point that can also be made more generally: a spell isn't necessarily balanced just because you can dispel it. It's true that many spells aren't as bad used against PCs as by PCs, because most parties of PCs will have ways to dispel, whereas many PC foes will not. I think you could argue that if dispel is the primary or only real defense for a given spell's effects, you've got a pretty good argument that the spell is somehow broken. As for spikes, one can argue that it is just intrinsically bad because spikes on a club is frighteningly more powerful than greater magic weapon on a longsword. GMW overlaps with an existing enhancement bonus on a weapon, whereas the damage bonus from spikes is so large that it far supersedes any existing enhancement bonus. Worse, the damage bonus from spikes is technically untyped, which means arguably it stacks with enhancement bonuses to damage, and worse, with the damage bonus from brambles (though I can't imagine many DMs would allow this). If a single spell is causing everyone to put away their magical weapons in favor of normal clubs, I think something is a bit wrong.
unusualsuspect 10-20-05, 03:59 PM	2 things, neither dealing with specifically BROKEN spells per se. 1. Did anyone else catch one example of the person saying RoE was overpowered where he explained how much strength a MONK would have left? A monk. Monks have, in general, the BEST touch AC in the game. If RoE was useless against any character class more then any other, it would be the monk. 2. Feeblemind, shown to me by my DM one day, strikes me as an extremely, EXTREMELY powerful spell. Medium Range, Will negates, and suddenly the target loses all spellcasting abilities and is reduced to 1 int and cha. I seem to remember there being a spell in the Draconomicon that reduced will saves and SR to one target... Combined with this spell, its an insta-death for any mage. With Heighten and Spell Focus, even without the Draconomicon spell, its what I'd call a very decent save-or-die spell for a wizard or sorceror, neither of which are likely to have high wisdom. Even worse, I just reread the spell. Targets who can cast arcane spells (wizards and sorcerers, but also warmages, wujen, and others) take a -4 penalty to their saving throws. At 9th level, a feeblemind is likely to have a DC of at least 19 (10 + 5 spell level +4 ability mod), while a 9th level sorceror or wizard is going to have a base save of 6, -4 from the spell, plus their wisdom modifier and other random bonuses... likely nothing more then a total of +5. 3/4 of a chance of losing all spellcasting abilities, your intelligence, and your charisma instantaneously is pretty damn impressive, I'd say. Is it broken? Well, not really... A fighter, for example, won't really need to worry about it as long as he has someone to remove the curse later on. Fine, he says, my intelligence is now 1... I attack the standing thing that did that magic thingie to me an' made me dumberer. It explodie reeeeeeal good.
Reddius 10-21-05, 01:27 PM	I, myself, do not understand the huge debate over ROE. I see it as a powerful 1st level spell, but not a spell that is game-changing or unbalanced. Bossrocket Its simple. Its not as powerful as most people think. Players Handbook Page 172 Same effect more than once in different strengths There you will see a concrete example with Ray of Enfeeblement. Which state that dont stack each RoE you just use the best. Complete Arcane P.86 Critical Hits (upper part of the page) Will clear all the doubts about RoE not working double in criticals. Its a penalty not a damage. The example give is specifically with RoE spell. :)
Semper 10-21-05, 05:23 PM	I myself enjoy the Ghost Form in ToB. lvl 5 spell.... so many uses /drool