Broken stuff with Permanancy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken stuff with Permanancy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Telathidar_Mhaelin
11-14-05, 10:59 AM Once upon a time I had a Dm who decided that the idea of only certain spells working with Permanancy was stupid- that if the spell could fuel a spell forever, it could fuel any spell forever. now, I may have a chance to game with this Dm again. I'd like to show him the error of his ways by playing a permanacy-loaded freek of a mage. So what does everybody think the most broken spells to use with permanancy are?

I'll be a wizard/acm in the upper 20's in terms of level, so don't worry about spell choise- I'll find a way to access the spell if you can find it.

Try to go for best in catagory:

Offensive Power
Defensive Power
Utility
Versatility
Shutdowns (stuff that F**ks a whole catagory of things, like undead, constructs, spells etc..)

Feel free to state the obvious, and porvide examples of the MOST broken way to use your suggestion.

I'll get the ball rolling by stating my top choice: Shapechange.
Offensive power- change to something big, dumb, and powerful (such as a half-fiend colossal troll)
Defensive- change to a fine, Incorporeal, Invisible Undead (a flea ghost or something). Also since you change as a free action once per round, you can prep. to change to a form that has immunity to the kind of damage of the first attack you take in any given round.
utility- there are forms that are well suited to accomplish almost any task, and most you can get great racial bonuses to most skilss if you think hard enough.
Versatility- see above.
Shutdowns- see above.
Tricks- do it ten times to get ten changes/round as a free action. Yay1 lets shift to become immune to all attacks.

This alone should prove my point, but let us see what else we can come up with, shall we?

:)
Tommy04
11-14-05, 11:13 AM I think "True Strike" and "Haste" are still the best examples. They are low-level and should thus cost you ~1000 XP. You get +20 to all attacks for true strike and one additional attack for haste. Why do we need fighters? ;)
masterofmayhem
11-14-05, 11:43 AM I have a question.

Why are you doing this? To "show him the error of his ways"? If he has been DMing for a while, and there have not yet been any problems, why are you going out of your way to ruin a campaign/adventure? Obviously his players (other than you, I guess) aren't abusing the rule, so there's no harm done.

Besides, as the DM, he can still set the XP cost for a certain spell. True strike for example, would be . . . oh, 80,000 experience or so, and declare that the minimum caster level for the spell has to be 25th (?) (per the costs in the spell's description). So, honestly, there isn't THAT big a balance problem with it, unless he is giving you free experience. And obviously that would be the problem, not permanency.

Really, the only problem I see here is you. Are you seriously going to create a broken character and screw up his game? That's pretty messed up, man.

Besides, as an epic level caster, you are already going to be annihilating the competition. If you do it right, you can take down creatures of a CR 5 or more higher than you with ease.

Plus, shapechange is bad choice, since it already lasts for 200+ minutes. Just extend it, and prepare two.
Tristan
11-14-05, 11:53 AM There is nothing wrong with that rule, I believe Permanancy states that the DM may allow other spells. When players choose to exploit it the I think it can be handled well with a good DM

DM ruling:The listed spells in the Permanancy description are the only ones listed because using permanancy on other spells often has unexpected effects.

Here is an example
Permanant True Strike:Grants target Spell like ability to use true strike 1/day
Permanant Shapechange:like true strike, OR the first thing they change to is a a permanant change, for better or for worse
PermanantTrue Reserection: Next time subejct dies, he is subject to a true reserection spell. The full effect occurs in that round and the creature can act on his next turn
green_yawgmoth
11-14-05, 11:57 AM I second the "don't be a dick" motion. Sure, it can be broken, but why should you? Prove that you're a little more mature than a 6 year old playing WoW or Diablo and just deal with it. But if you're dead set on breaking this guy's game over this houserule, head on over to the CO boards; they'll no doubt show you how to be able to kill everything you want within 600 ft as a free action every round, or something.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Telathidar_Mhaelin
11-14-05, 12:04 PM Sorry- my bad. i should have explained the context of this plan first.

This is a longstanding tradition in our group- if someone supports a rule that is by and large considered Broken, we nominate one person to show them the error of their ways. We find the first excuse in the session to take a sidequest, perform the "brokenness" over and over again till the point is proven, then reconstruct the character to write out the broken mechanic, and move on. In no way has this ever ruined our games- it's expected, acknowledged by our entire group as our way of dealing with these issues, and leads to some fun, relaxed times. Its a better way then arguing- its proof. Its been done to each of us at least once at this point. It is not going to ruin the game.

Now that you know the context, any thoughts?
Rhomphaia
11-14-05, 12:24 PM ...I believe Permanancy states that the DM may allow other spells...
emphasis mine

This statement is entirely correct. The spells listed with the Permancy description are the spells that are recommended to be able to be made permanent. Nowhere in the description does it say anything like 'all spells can be made permanent'. The DM is well with his/her rights to say that the spells on the lists in the Permancy description are the only ones allowed.

The description says that the player may research other spells, but the DM is free to simply say 'nope, not possible' and make the character waste time and money on research.

Your DM is not following a house rule. He is exercizing his options as stated in the Permancy description. I suggest you read the spell a bit better.
masterofmayhem
11-14-05, 12:35 PM Sorry- my bad. i should have explained the context of this plan first.

This is a longstanding tradition in our group- if someone supports a rule that is by and large considered Broken, we nominate one person to show them the error of their ways. We find the first excuse in the session to take a sidequest, perform the "brokenness" over and over again till the point is proven, then reconstruct the character to write out the broken mechanic, and move on. In no way has this ever ruined our games- it's expected, acknowledged by our entire group as our way of dealing with these issues, and leads to some fun, relaxed times. Its a better way then arguing- its proof. Its been done to each of us at least once at this point. It is not going to ruin the game.

Now that you know the context, any thoughts?
Oh, OK, I understand, then.

Still, I honestly don't see this as being broken, since he sets the experience requirement. You will not be able to get true strike and haste permanencied, since those would carry a hefty experience penalty. Although, I suppose, if you are willing to forego six or seven levels, you could go ahead and do it . . .

Haste, though. No way would you want that quickened. You would lose a third of your life (from that point). You're basically funcitoning as if you are half again as fast as normal, or maybe eve twice as fast. Would you want to be permanently stuck like that?
Dionon
11-14-05, 12:42 PM Didn't read the replies, but I have run into the same.... advantage? ****? either way.... I've reigned myself in, and havent gone crazy, but here are some things you can do...

Haste
Fly
True Strike
If you have Divine Levels: Divine Power
Tounges
Don't do Wizard...or do a Wizard Sorcerer.... get a short spear for this one...
Greater Magic Weapon
Keen Edge
Bull's Strength
Bear's Endurance
Cat's Grace
Eagle's Splendor
God... the other two increasers.... you know them.....

Anything like that..... Yeah
cere
11-14-05, 12:45 PM Not broken at all really. Permancy in my opinion is actually underpowered. You go and spend all that xp and gold and then your DM shall laugh as one little Dispel Magic ruins your day.
bossloki
11-14-05, 01:05 PM Kiss of the vampire from Libris Mortis.
One of its options gives you vampiric touch as a supernatural touch attack.

That should allow even the most frail of mages to hold his own (or overpower) in just about any melee.

Couple that with a permanent spectral hand for a +2 to the attack roll and you don't have to get that close.

This should fit the bill for BROKEN use of permanency.
Jaid
11-14-05, 01:35 PM well, since you're gonna be epic, tenacious spell... how does that interact with permanency? if it does what i think it does, you're gonna want it.

anyways, true strike is a terrible option. 500 XP for +20 to hit on the next attack you make is not worth it, even if it does ignore concealment.

i would say stuff like:

mind blank
free action
protection from <alignment>
death ward
regeneration

the kind of things that are absolutes, but usually aren't a problem because they can be dispelled and/or they don't last forever.

also, i recommend the druid spell lightning storm. iirc, that would be infinite bolts, right?
ninja1
11-14-05, 01:37 PM Wraithstrike...

Could you try permanency on a Wish that emulates a Divine spell?

If yes, dig up any Divine Persistant threads you can find in the Character Optimization boards.....

About the dispel magic, I recommend contingency dimension door vs. dispel. However, you could benefit from Craft Contingent Spell from Complete Arcane to protect from greater dispel and disjunction.
mvincent
11-14-05, 01:56 PM Alter self wouldn't work as you think it does (lots of things wrong with your example). It would not be a good example of permanency abuse.

You could maybe try:
Transformation
Sunbeam
Call lightning
Globe of Invulnerability
Displacement
etc.

... but I've heard of worse abuses than these that were unrelated to permanency. Many of the abuseable spells could just be made into a magic item anyway (for less XP even).
Ozymandias V.
11-14-05, 02:03 PM ******

Permanency can be dispelled.

******

As previously stated by various posters, this counters most brokenness.
Beppo
11-14-05, 02:12 PM take a look at the "Starmantle" spell from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's 6th level, when I remember correct. And it will make you immun versus all non magical melee attacks (including arrows, too).
Ha, allowing a Reflex Save for half damage from magical weapons.
Telathidar_Mhaelin
11-14-05, 02:17 PM not alter self, shapechange
moto
11-14-05, 02:22 PM Any thing?
Well first you want to make yourself immune to as many things as possible I would go wiz 20 for this,
Ok then grab tenacious spell like the above poster told you to.
Then
death ward( death effects are no longer a problem.)
Mind Blank ( enchantment school no longer a problem)
Prot form both Law and Evil, takes care of some contingency’s
Haste ( it no longer ages you, )
Regeneration ( even better)
Fly ( a lot of things can’t fly)
Improved invisibility (awesome 50% miss chance, and your immune to targeted spells.)
Mirror image ( even more miss chance, )
Grease ( + 20 against grapple, not to great be nice)
Non detection ( along with the mind blank your invisibility is virtually guaranteed )
Fire shield+ melfs acid sheaf + the cold variant of fire shield+
Comprehend Languages: (who needs to use skill points)
Detect Secret Doors ( what secret door?)
Feather Fall ( falling hurt people?)
False Life ( at least + 23 hp at your level)
Repulsion ( many lesser enemy will fail the save)
Heroism, Greater ( a lot of plus’s)
Arcane Sight, Greater: ( knowing is halve the battle)
Globe of Invulnerability ( immune to entire levels of spells)
Remember, this is not broken, because of dispels unless you use tenacious spell met magic, also have a couple of protection spells that you can put up if the protections get repressed, wait for them to go back up, then kill them.
There must be others, but thats still costly. And you want items right?
Buy as a many + res item as you can, and add Star mantle and and an item that grants evasion.
Dionon
11-14-05, 03:26 PM If you Permanancy True Strike, it's always ready to make your next attack +20... so in effect you always have a +20 to hit....
tarkin
11-14-05, 03:30 PM Even WITHOUT Tenancious, they are still broken, just less so. All you have to do is hire a high level Mage to make them permanent.

In general, I have found there are two reasons why people want Permancy.

1) They can't have/use magic items because of role plaing/body issues (I am a prisoner, how am I supposed to have kept my Helm of Brilliance? I am a snake, I can't buy the Boots of Haste.

2) I am too cheap to buy a magic item and my DM is too stupid to understand how I can cheat him out of it.

---------
But DM's being DMs can abuse the rules easier than you can. For this reason, it is VERY hard to convince a DM that his rule is a munchkin abuse, because he will use it just as much, if not more than you are, so in his game it will seem fair and balanced cause everyone is doing it. (If everyone is doing steroids, then no one complains about it being unfair).

To convince him you may have to insist that he try going up against your players WITHOUT his own monsters/NPCs using Permancy. If it really is fair, they should be fine. If it is not...

That said, just take all the lower level stuff, cast by a higher level mage.

My advice to you is to make a list of magic items you want, then simply get spells that duplicate them.

Shield
True Strike (if you can convince him that the +20 stays for all attacks, instead of simply increasing the time till you can use it)
Mage Armor
Protection From Evil
Enlarge
Any spell that lets you regenerate.
Barkskin
Stat booster spells (Cat's Grace, etc.)

Most short duration spells, being made permanent makes them abusive.
worst_player_ever
11-14-05, 04:28 PM This is very interesting...
True strike +permanancy=+20 in every attack roll

So if I make a scorching ray spell on lvl 11, I have +20 in all 3 rays??? :eek:
Ozymandias V.
11-14-05, 04:31 PM If you Permanancy True Strike, it's always ready to make your next attack +20... so in effect you always have a +20 to hit....

Actually, it applies to your first attack. The duration is basically one round. The effect is a +20 to your next attack roll. So making it permanent would mean it lasts forever...until you make your next melee attack roll.
Dionon
11-14-05, 05:18 PM Wouldn't it technically reset once you have used it? So it would be like the hammer of a gun... It clicks, but it goes back into position once you let loose the trigger.
Ozymandias V.
11-14-05, 05:48 PM It wouldn't reset. The effect is not ongoing. Permanency affects the DURATION, no the EFFECT. If True Strike becomes permanent, then that means I can cast Fireball and make it permanent since it's using the same train of thought. After it goes off and inflicts its damage and ends, won't it reset?

Now, you COULD make a permanent Prismatic Sphere...but that would just be evil.

...and I know my previous posts may have created the impression that I agree with the "any spell plus permanency cannot be abused" thing. I don't. I'm just saying that anyone trying to abuse it can be Dispel'd or, if it gets truly out of hand, Disjunction'd. Or stuck in an AM field. Or any semi-plausible reason the DM can give to stop the abuse of his beloved houserule.
masterofmayhem
11-15-05, 02:09 PM Keep in mind that in order to dispel permanency you must be twice the caster level of the caster that used permanency. In other words, if the original poster is at level 25, you would need about a 58th level caster (there are several magic items that give caster level) to dispel it. If a level 25 party comes up against that, they're dead anyway; it won't matter if the mage suddenly loses effectiveness.
mvincent
11-15-05, 02:55 PM in order to dispel permanency you must be twice the caster level of the caster that used permanency. Where did you read that? The rules (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/SpellsP-R.rtf) say that permanent spells "can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell." (for spells that you cast on yourself only... other permanent spells can be dispelled normally)
jameswilliamogle
11-15-05, 04:23 PM You should have Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and MDK Contingencied on your body such that if someone casts one on you, it is counterspelled. Just a thought.

Permanancy Wraithstrike will probably be better than True Strike above level 20.

Permanancy Lim Wish Divine Power would be my top choice.
Permanancy Magic Jar w/ (use your imagination).
Permanancy Expeditious Retreat.

Is there a limit to what you can and can't make Permanant?

I thought the Permanant Symbol of Death neglecting allies was broken enough...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Telathidar_Mhaelin 11-14-05, 10:59 AM	Once upon a time I had a Dm who decided that the idea of only certain spells working with Permanancy was stupid- that if the spell could fuel a spell forever, it could fuel any spell forever. now, I may have a chance to game with this Dm again. I'd like to show him the error of his ways by playing a permanacy-loaded freek of a mage. So what does everybody think the most broken spells to use with permanancy are? I'll be a wizard/acm in the upper 20's in terms of level, so don't worry about spell choise- I'll find a way to access the spell if you can find it. Try to go for best in catagory: Offensive Power Defensive Power Utility Versatility Shutdowns (stuff that F**ks a whole catagory of things, like undead, constructs, spells etc..) Feel free to state the obvious, and porvide examples of the MOST broken way to use your suggestion. I'll get the ball rolling by stating my top choice: Shapechange. Offensive power- change to something big, dumb, and powerful (such as a half-fiend colossal troll) Defensive- change to a fine, Incorporeal, Invisible Undead (a flea ghost or something). Also since you change as a free action once per round, you can prep. to change to a form that has immunity to the kind of damage of the first attack you take in any given round. utility- there are forms that are well suited to accomplish almost any task, and most you can get great racial bonuses to most skilss if you think hard enough. Versatility- see above. Shutdowns- see above. Tricks- do it ten times to get ten changes/round as a free action. Yay1 lets shift to become immune to all attacks. This alone should prove my point, but let us see what else we can come up with, shall we? :)
Tommy04 11-14-05, 11:13 AM	I think "True Strike" and "Haste" are still the best examples. They are low-level and should thus cost you ~1000 XP. You get +20 to all attacks for true strike and one additional attack for haste. Why do we need fighters? ;)
masterofmayhem 11-14-05, 11:43 AM	I have a question. Why are you doing this? To "show him the error of his ways"? If he has been DMing for a while, and there have not yet been any problems, why are you going out of your way to ruin a campaign/adventure? Obviously his players (other than you, I guess) aren't abusing the rule, so there's no harm done. Besides, as the DM, he can still set the XP cost for a certain spell. True strike for example, would be . . . oh, 80,000 experience or so, and declare that the minimum caster level for the spell has to be 25th (?) (per the costs in the spell's description). So, honestly, there isn't THAT big a balance problem with it, unless he is giving you free experience. And obviously that would be the problem, not permanency. Really, the only problem I see here is you. Are you seriously going to create a broken character and screw up his game? That's pretty messed up, man. Besides, as an epic level caster, you are already going to be annihilating the competition. If you do it right, you can take down creatures of a CR 5 or more higher than you with ease. Plus, shapechange is bad choice, since it already lasts for 200+ minutes. Just extend it, and prepare two.
Tristan 11-14-05, 11:53 AM	There is nothing wrong with that rule, I believe Permanancy states that the DM may allow other spells. When players choose to exploit it the I think it can be handled well with a good DM DM ruling:The listed spells in the Permanancy description are the only ones listed because using permanancy on other spells often has unexpected effects. Here is an example Permanant True Strike:Grants target Spell like ability to use true strike 1/day Permanant Shapechange:like true strike, OR the first thing they change to is a a permanant change, for better or for worse PermanantTrue Reserection: Next time subejct dies, he is subject to a true reserection spell. The full effect occurs in that round and the creature can act on his next turn
green_yawgmoth 11-14-05, 11:57 AM	I second the "don't be a dick" motion. Sure, it can be broken, but why should you? Prove that you're a little more mature than a 6 year old playing WoW or Diablo and just deal with it. But if you're dead set on breaking this guy's game over this houserule, head on over to the CO boards; they'll no doubt show you how to be able to kill everything you want within 600 ft as a free action every round, or something. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Telathidar_Mhaelin 11-14-05, 12:04 PM	Sorry- my bad. i should have explained the context of this plan first. This is a longstanding tradition in our group- if someone supports a rule that is by and large considered Broken, we nominate one person to show them the error of their ways. We find the first excuse in the session to take a sidequest, perform the "brokenness" over and over again till the point is proven, then reconstruct the character to write out the broken mechanic, and move on. In no way has this ever ruined our games- it's expected, acknowledged by our entire group as our way of dealing with these issues, and leads to some fun, relaxed times. Its a better way then arguing- its proof. Its been done to each of us at least once at this point. It is not going to ruin the game. Now that you know the context, any thoughts?
Rhomphaia 11-14-05, 12:24 PM	...I believe Permanancy states that the DM may allow other spells... emphasis mine This statement is entirely correct. The spells listed with the Permancy description are the spells that are recommended to be able to be made permanent. Nowhere in the description does it say anything like 'all spells can be made permanent'. The DM is well with his/her rights to say that the spells on the lists in the Permancy description are the only ones allowed. The description says that the player may research other spells, but the DM is free to simply say 'nope, not possible' and make the character waste time and money on research. Your DM is not following a house rule. He is exercizing his options as stated in the Permancy description. I suggest you read the spell a bit better.
masterofmayhem 11-14-05, 12:35 PM	Sorry- my bad. i should have explained the context of this plan first. This is a longstanding tradition in our group- if someone supports a rule that is by and large considered Broken, we nominate one person to show them the error of their ways. We find the first excuse in the session to take a sidequest, perform the "brokenness" over and over again till the point is proven, then reconstruct the character to write out the broken mechanic, and move on. In no way has this ever ruined our games- it's expected, acknowledged by our entire group as our way of dealing with these issues, and leads to some fun, relaxed times. Its a better way then arguing- its proof. Its been done to each of us at least once at this point. It is not going to ruin the game. Now that you know the context, any thoughts? Oh, OK, I understand, then. Still, I honestly don't see this as being broken, since he sets the experience requirement. You will not be able to get true strike and haste permanencied, since those would carry a hefty experience penalty. Although, I suppose, if you are willing to forego six or seven levels, you could go ahead and do it . . . Haste, though. No way would you want that quickened. You would lose a third of your life (from that point). You're basically funcitoning as if you are half again as fast as normal, or maybe eve twice as fast. Would you want to be permanently stuck like that?
Dionon 11-14-05, 12:42 PM	Didn't read the replies, but I have run into the same.... advantage? ****? either way.... I've reigned myself in, and havent gone crazy, but here are some things you can do... Haste Fly True Strike If you have Divine Levels: Divine Power Tounges Don't do Wizard...or do a Wizard Sorcerer.... get a short spear for this one... Greater Magic Weapon Keen Edge Bull's Strength Bear's Endurance Cat's Grace Eagle's Splendor God... the other two increasers.... you know them..... Anything like that..... Yeah
cere 11-14-05, 12:45 PM	Not broken at all really. Permancy in my opinion is actually underpowered. You go and spend all that xp and gold and then your DM shall laugh as one little Dispel Magic ruins your day.
bossloki 11-14-05, 01:05 PM	Kiss of the vampire from Libris Mortis. One of its options gives you vampiric touch as a supernatural touch attack. That should allow even the most frail of mages to hold his own (or overpower) in just about any melee. Couple that with a permanent spectral hand for a +2 to the attack roll and you don't have to get that close. This should fit the bill for BROKEN use of permanency.
Jaid 11-14-05, 01:35 PM	well, since you're gonna be epic, tenacious spell... how does that interact with permanency? if it does what i think it does, you're gonna want it. anyways, true strike is a terrible option. 500 XP for +20 to hit on the next attack you make is not worth it, even if it does ignore concealment. i would say stuff like: mind blank free action protection from <alignment> death ward regeneration the kind of things that are absolutes, but usually aren't a problem because they can be dispelled and/or they don't last forever. also, i recommend the druid spell lightning storm. iirc, that would be infinite bolts, right?
ninja1 11-14-05, 01:37 PM	Wraithstrike... Could you try permanency on a Wish that emulates a Divine spell? If yes, dig up any Divine Persistant threads you can find in the Character Optimization boards..... About the dispel magic, I recommend contingency dimension door vs. dispel. However, you could benefit from Craft Contingent Spell from Complete Arcane to protect from greater dispel and disjunction.
mvincent 11-14-05, 01:56 PM	Alter self wouldn't work as you think it does (lots of things wrong with your example). It would not be a good example of permanency abuse. You could maybe try: Transformation Sunbeam Call lightning Globe of Invulnerability Displacement etc. ... but I've heard of worse abuses than these that were unrelated to permanency. Many of the abuseable spells could just be made into a magic item anyway (for less XP even).
Ozymandias V. 11-14-05, 02:03 PM	**** Permanency can be dispelled. **** As previously stated by various posters, this counters most brokenness.
Beppo 11-14-05, 02:12 PM	take a look at the "Starmantle" spell from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's 6th level, when I remember correct. And it will make you immun versus all non magical melee attacks (including arrows, too). Ha, allowing a Reflex Save for half damage from magical weapons.
Telathidar_Mhaelin 11-14-05, 02:17 PM	not alter self, shapechange
moto 11-14-05, 02:22 PM	Any thing? Well first you want to make yourself immune to as many things as possible I would go wiz 20 for this, Ok then grab tenacious spell like the above poster told you to. Then death ward( death effects are no longer a problem.) Mind Blank ( enchantment school no longer a problem) Prot form both Law and Evil, takes care of some contingency’s Haste ( it no longer ages you, ) Regeneration ( even better) Fly ( a lot of things can’t fly) Improved invisibility (awesome 50% miss chance, and your immune to targeted spells.) Mirror image ( even more miss chance, ) Grease ( + 20 against grapple, not to great be nice) Non detection ( along with the mind blank your invisibility is virtually guaranteed ) Fire shield+ melfs acid sheaf + the cold variant of fire shield+ Comprehend Languages: (who needs to use skill points) Detect Secret Doors ( what secret door?) Feather Fall ( falling hurt people?) False Life ( at least + 23 hp at your level) Repulsion ( many lesser enemy will fail the save) Heroism, Greater ( a lot of plus’s) Arcane Sight, Greater: ( knowing is halve the battle) Globe of Invulnerability ( immune to entire levels of spells) Remember, this is not broken, because of dispels unless you use tenacious spell met magic, also have a couple of protection spells that you can put up if the protections get repressed, wait for them to go back up, then kill them. There must be others, but thats still costly. And you want items right? Buy as a many + res item as you can, and add Star mantle and and an item that grants evasion.
Dionon 11-14-05, 03:26 PM	If you Permanancy True Strike, it's always ready to make your next attack +20... so in effect you always have a +20 to hit....
tarkin 11-14-05, 03:30 PM	Even WITHOUT Tenancious, they are still broken, just less so. All you have to do is hire a high level Mage to make them permanent. In general, I have found there are two reasons why people want Permancy. 1) They can't have/use magic items because of role plaing/body issues (I am a prisoner, how am I supposed to have kept my Helm of Brilliance? I am a snake, I can't buy the Boots of Haste. 2) I am too cheap to buy a magic item and my DM is too stupid to understand how I can cheat him out of it. --------- But DM's being DMs can abuse the rules easier than you can. For this reason, it is VERY hard to convince a DM that his rule is a munchkin abuse, because he will use it just as much, if not more than you are, so in his game it will seem fair and balanced cause everyone is doing it. (If everyone is doing steroids, then no one complains about it being unfair). To convince him you may have to insist that he try going up against your players WITHOUT his own monsters/NPCs using Permancy. If it really is fair, they should be fine. If it is not... That said, just take all the lower level stuff, cast by a higher level mage. My advice to you is to make a list of magic items you want, then simply get spells that duplicate them. Shield True Strike (if you can convince him that the +20 stays for all attacks, instead of simply increasing the time till you can use it) Mage Armor Protection From Evil Enlarge Any spell that lets you regenerate. Barkskin Stat booster spells (Cat's Grace, etc.) Most short duration spells, being made permanent makes them abusive.
worst_player_ever 11-14-05, 04:28 PM	This is very interesting... True strike +permanancy=+20 in every attack roll So if I make a scorching ray spell on lvl 11, I have +20 in all 3 rays??? :eek:
Ozymandias V. 11-14-05, 04:31 PM	If you Permanancy True Strike, it's always ready to make your next attack +20... so in effect you always have a +20 to hit.... Actually, it applies to your first attack. The duration is basically one round. The effect is a +20 to your next attack roll. So making it permanent would mean it lasts forever...until you make your next melee attack roll.
Dionon 11-14-05, 05:18 PM	Wouldn't it technically reset once you have used it? So it would be like the hammer of a gun... It clicks, but it goes back into position once you let loose the trigger.
Ozymandias V. 11-14-05, 05:48 PM	It wouldn't reset. The effect is not ongoing. Permanency affects the DURATION, no the EFFECT. If True Strike becomes permanent, then that means I can cast Fireball and make it permanent since it's using the same train of thought. After it goes off and inflicts its damage and ends, won't it reset? Now, you COULD make a permanent Prismatic Sphere...but that would just be evil. ...and I know my previous posts may have created the impression that I agree with the "any spell plus permanency cannot be abused" thing. I don't. I'm just saying that anyone trying to abuse it can be Dispel'd or, if it gets truly out of hand, Disjunction'd. Or stuck in an AM field. Or any semi-plausible reason the DM can give to stop the abuse of his beloved houserule.
masterofmayhem 11-15-05, 02:09 PM	Keep in mind that in order to dispel permanency you must be twice the caster level of the caster that used permanency. In other words, if the original poster is at level 25, you would need about a 58th level caster (there are several magic items that give caster level) to dispel it. If a level 25 party comes up against that, they're dead anyway; it won't matter if the mage suddenly loses effectiveness.
mvincent 11-15-05, 02:55 PM	in order to dispel permanency you must be twice the caster level of the caster that used permanency. Where did you read that? The rules (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/SpellsP-R.rtf) say that permanent spells "can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell." (for spells that you cast on yourself only... other permanent spells can be dispelled normally)
jameswilliamogle 11-15-05, 04:23 PM	You should have Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and MDK Contingencied on your body such that if someone casts one on you, it is counterspelled. Just a thought. Permanancy Wraithstrike will probably be better than True Strike above level 20. Permanancy Lim Wish Divine Power would be my top choice. Permanancy Magic Jar w/ (use your imagination). Permanancy Expeditious Retreat. Is there a limit to what you can and can't make Permanant? I thought the Permanant Symbol of Death neglecting allies was broken enough...