Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aleolus 12-27-07, 01:46 PM	OK, this works best for Bards, since they can use Suggestion on anyone who's been affected by their Fascinate ability, but it's still damn powerful! Use Suggestion on any creature, and your first suggestion is "You will not resist any of my suggestions". If they fail that save, they then no longer get a save against Suggestions from you! And if that is your second one, and the first one is "You don't realize I'm giving you suggestions", then, not only do they not resist your suggestions, they also think it was their idea to do it (if they even know that they're doing it)!
jaelis 12-27-07, 02:53 PM	See for instance... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) But in an actual game, I would rule that each suggestion only works for one course of action. You could suggest that the target fail his next save against one of your spells (assuming you make it sound reasonable, which isn't too hard), but after that he would have fulfilled the request and would no longer be affected.
groveborn 12-27-07, 03:14 PM	I'll second J there. Suggestion isn't a command. It doesn't force people to do things. They will do them if they sound reasonable. Don't resist any of my attempts to control you is a very unlikely suggestion. Don't attack my friends is better.
Loren Pechtel 12-27-07, 04:07 PM	Thirded. The suggested action must be reasonable in the eyes of the spell target. It need not be an action that they would otherwise have done but it must not be an action they would not do. Thus: "A dip in that pool would be refreshing". If the target knows it's really acid and not water, it fails. If the target would not enter a pool of water then it fails. If the pool appears deep and the target can't swim, it fails.
ArcTan 12-27-07, 04:28 PM	Wow! And I think the coolest wish ever would be "I wish for infinite wishes!" I'm so creative! No one has ever thought of this before, especially DMs dealing with aggressively munchkin players! It's not like the rules specifically forbid this kind of thing!
Damned slayer 12-27-07, 04:48 PM	Wow! And I think the coolest wish ever would be "I wish for infinite wishes!" I'm so creative! No one has ever thought of this before, especially DMs dealing with aggressively munchkin players! It's not like the rules specifically forbid this kind of thing! better one wish to be able to call infinite Djinni whenever you want (the one that grant 3 wish) and always appear helpfull to you and that they doesn't try to mess your wishes :) like that your sure not to waste XP and always have some backup wish :) seriously for suggestion you could suggest that you're gonna buff him so he doesn't resist your spells but it will be undone as soon as he can feel something bad going on and hope he doesn't have rank in spell craft
mtbOgre 12-27-07, 09:09 PM	Thirded. The suggested action must be reasonable in the eyes of the spell target. It need not be an action that they would otherwise have done but it must not be an action they would not do. Thus: "A dip in that pool would be refreshing". If the target knows it's really acid and not water, it fails. If the target would not enter a pool of water then it fails. If the pool appears deep and the target can't swim, it fails. An example of a great use for suggestion "These are not the druids you're looking for."
1 ton ghost 12-28-07, 02:19 PM	typical F-U's employed via this spell: -that is a pile of gold, not copper. the price is always right -*afterwards* ;) you're a super girl and all, but ah, look at the time... -that's a skin condition, he not really undead (necropolitan)
ArcTan 12-28-07, 06:36 PM	An example of a great use for suggestion "These are not the druids you're looking for." Still has to be reasonable. (I.e., in the film, it probably only worked because the Stormtroopers were tired, bored, and had carefully and laboriously checked the memory banks of hundreds of droids that day already. It would not have worked if R2-D2 had been merrily broadcasting his hologram of the Death Star plans right in front of the guy, or if the guy had actually been given an accurate photograph saying "These are the droids you're looking for".)
mtbOgre 12-28-07, 07:43 PM	Still has to be reasonable. (I.e., in the film, it probably only worked because the Stormtroopers were tired, bored, and had carefully and laboriously checked the memory banks of hundreds of droids that day already. It would not have worked if R2-D2 had been merrily broadcasting his hologram of the Death Star plans right in front of the guy, or if the guy had actually been given an accurate photograph saying "These are the droids you're looking for".) Well... it wouldn't have worked in D&D anyhow. Another good thought, don't try and use suggestion against a Hut.
Loren Pechtel 12-29-07, 03:27 PM	Still has to be reasonable. (I.e., in the film, it probably only worked because the Stormtroopers were tired, bored, and had carefully and laboriously checked the memory banks of hundreds of droids that day already. It would not have worked if R2-D2 had been merrily broadcasting his hologram of the Death Star plans right in front of the guy, or if the guy had actually been given an accurate photograph saying "These are the droids you're looking for".) I don't think it matters if they were tired and bored or not. They were inspecting droids and concluding they weren't the droids they were looking for. All Obi Wan did is get them to make this judgment without proper inspection. I do agree it would have failed if they had good data on the targets.
Daeva 12-30-07, 12:00 AM	im gonna go with that use of the force was FAR FAR FAR stronger than a simple suggestion spell... seriously it can be use dot make completely and utterly retarted asinine and dangerous suggestions seem completely and utterly logical with out the ability for anyone to convince them it was not so
Daeva 12-30-07, 12:01 AM	im gonna go with that use of the force was FAR FAR FAR stronger than a simple suggestion spell... seriously it can be use dot make completely and utterly retarted asinine and dangerous suggestions seem completely and utterly logical with out the ability for anyone to convince them it was not so. example republic credits are fine.... had watto not been a tydorean he would of happily of taking worthless money in exchange for ship parts and though it was a good idea even when someone tell hims the credits arent worth a breakfast biscuit at mcdonalds.
Cartigan 12-30-07, 12:30 AM	Thirded. The suggested action must be reasonable in the eyes of the spell target. It need not be an action that they would otherwise have done but it must not be an action they would not do. Thus: "A dip in that pool would be refreshing". If the target knows it's really acid and not water, it fails. If the target would not enter a pool of water then it fails. If the pool appears deep and the target can't swim, it fails. You do realize that "hey, that pool [of acid] looks like refreshing water, why don't you take a dip" is an example of a suggestion that works in the spell's description, right?
DarkRhystar 12-30-07, 12:45 AM	You do realize that "hey, that pool [of acid] looks like refreshing water, why don't you take a dip" is an example of a suggestion that works in the spell's description, right? Reminds me of when people ask if Ray of Enfeeblement penalties stack despite the example of magical penalties not stacking in the PhB is Ray of Enfeeblement.
mtbOgre 12-30-07, 01:32 AM	im gonna go with that use of the force was FAR FAR FAR stronger than a simple suggestion spell... seriously it can be use dot make completely and utterly retarted asinine and dangerous suggestions seem completely and utterly logical with out the ability for anyone to convince them it was not so. example republic credits are fine.... had watto not been a tydorean he would of happily of taking worthless money in exchange for ship parts and though it was a good idea even when someone tell hims the credits arent worth a breakfast biscuit at mcdonalds. I don't know about being FAR FAR stronger. Of the three times I recall it being tried it failed twice and the one time it did work was a perfect example of when suggestion would have worked. When did anyone use the Jedi mind powers to achieve anything more significant than that? I guess Luke used it to some small effect to get in to see Jaba and Obi Wan used it on the Death Star to distract some storm troopers when he was shutting down the tractor beam. All subtle effects. If anything I would say it's weaker than the spell.
VengefulGazeofGod 12-30-07, 10:52 AM	I would say that the mind trick is intact stronger then suggestion. Jedi only use it when they have to to limit there enemies abilities to detect them using the force. :cool:
ArcTan 12-30-07, 04:38 PM	You do realize that "hey, that pool [of acid] looks like refreshing water, why don't you take a dip" is an example of a suggestion that works in the spell's description, right? That's why he was using it. Notice that it only works if the acid does, in fact, look like refreshing water. (Most people seem to have this weird misconception that "acid" is identifiable on sight. It isn't -- most of the time it looks just like water.)
groveborn 12-31-07, 02:57 AM	That's why he was using it. Notice that it only works if the acid does, in fact, look like refreshing water. (Most people seem to have this weird misconception that "acid" is identifiable on sight. It isn't -- most of the time it looks just like water.) And often has a very bad odor, though not always.
Banatine 12-31-07, 04:31 AM	There is a greater warlock invocation (and one of my personal faves) called devil's whispers that works as a suggestion. Also, after they have performed the suggestion, they make another will save at -5, and if they fail that, they forget that you made them do it and think it must have been their own idea (even if they can't figure out why they would have done it.) If you want the jedi mind trick, that is it.
mtbOgre 12-31-07, 12:55 PM	That's why he was using it. Notice that it only works if the acid does, in fact, look like refreshing water. (Most people seem to have this weird misconception that "acid" is identifiable on sight. It isn't -- most of the time it looks just like water.) However acid that would be strong enough to burn skin would kill anything in it. It would likely be filled with dead insects. Also, the container this highly corrosive acid is in would likely have to be specially made of glass. It's also likely that even though the acid itself looks like water the edges would show clear signs of corrosion. A glass with acid in it may very well look like a glass of water. The liquid in pool of acid might even look like water, but the pool itself would almost certainly stand out as being unusual at the very least. Maybe a ceramic sided fountain? The real problem is finding fairly inconspicuous looking acid pools.
Llathos 12-31-07, 02:39 PM	There is a greater warlock invocation (and one of my personal faves) called devil's whispers that works as a suggestion. Also, after they have performed the suggestion, they make another will save at -5, and if they fail that, they forget that you made them do it and think it must have been their own idea (even if they can't figure out why they would have done it.) If you want the jedi mind trick, that is it. What's the sourcebook for that invocation? Also, I appear to not be the only one confused about the whole charm school of spells. How do you run a Suggestion spell during combat? If you fail your save vs suggestion in combat, can the caster just tell you to flee and remove you from the combat? Seems mighty powerful for a 3rd level spell.
jaelis 12-31-07, 03:58 PM	Seems mighty powerful for a 3rd level spell. Compare to hold person, deep slumber, or ray of exhaustion. There are a number of 3rd level "save or sit out the fight" spells. Not that it isn't good, its just not out of line good.
ArcTan 12-31-07, 04:01 PM	However acid that would be strong enough to burn skin would kill anything in it. It would likely be filled with dead insects. Also, the container this highly corrosive acid is in would likely have to be specially made of glass. It's also likely that even though the acid itself looks like water the edges would show clear signs of corrosion. A glass with acid in it may very well look like a glass of water. The liquid in pool of acid might even look like water, but the pool itself would almost certainly stand out as being unusual at the very least. Maybe a ceramic sided fountain? The real problem is finding fairly inconspicuous looking acid pools. A "reasonable"-sounding suggestion doesn't have to be able to stand up to extremely demanding scrutiny. People do careless things on their own volition all the time. It just needs to not be predicated on an *obviously false premise*. The acid has to at least *kind of* look like water. It needs to not be *obviously* ridiculous. The acid-pool thing has done a lot of damage, because people think (falsely) that acid is green, bubbling, eeeevil-looking fluid that obviously isn't water, and therefore think suggestion is supposed to be able to make you believe ridiculous false things contrary to your senses. In which case the spell is ridiculously broken right out of the gate. ("That sword is actually a healing potion that only works if you stab it into your ribcage!")
ArcTan 12-31-07, 04:04 PM	How do you run a Suggestion spell during combat? If you fail your save vs suggestion in combat, can the caster just tell you to flee and remove you from the combat? If fleeing seems like a reasonable idea. Fleeing often *is* a reasonable idea against foes that look like serious threats, which any proper-EL encounter should be. However, how reasonable it really is depends on who the guy is (is he a Paladin without fear?) and what his situation is (does he know the penalty for desertion is to be instantly shot in the head by snipers?).
Llathos 12-31-07, 04:52 PM	This sounds like a DM-adjudication nightmare
abyssalmole 12-31-07, 05:00 PM	I'm telling you! There is a whole city of gold in that Tarrasque's Gizzard! just, you know, hop in there and get it out!
mtbOgre 12-31-07, 05:53 PM	A "reasonable"-sounding suggestion doesn't have to be able to stand up to extremely demanding scrutiny. People do careless things on their own volition all the time. It just needs to not be predicated on an *obviously false premise*. The acid has to at least *kind of* look like water. It needs to not be *obviously* ridiculous. The acid-pool thing has done a lot of damage, because people think (falsely) that acid is green, bubbling, eeeevil-looking fluid that obviously isn't water, and therefore think suggestion is supposed to be able to make you believe ridiculous false things contrary to your senses. In which case the spell is ridiculously broken right out of the gate. ("That sword is actually a healing potion that only works if you stab it into your ribcage!") Well in any case the bigger problem is a lack of fairly innocuous looking acid pools in convenient locations. I suppose you stay near an acid pool and wait for your enemies to come near you and cast it. Unfortunately since D&D generally entails breaking in to other peoples homes and killing them, it's more likely that dungeon denizens know that the slightly off smelling pool with the white froth around the edges is filled with acid. It's more likely a DM would be able to effectively use it on the characters than vice-versa.
ArcTan 12-31-07, 07:59 PM	Well in any case the bigger problem is a lack of fairly innocuous looking acid pools in convenient locations. I suppose you stay near an acid pool and wait for your enemies to come near you and cast it. Unfortunately since D&D generally entails breaking in to other peoples homes and killing them, it's more likely that dungeon denizens know that the slightly off smelling pool with the white froth around the edges is filled with acid. It's more likely a DM would be able to effectively use it on the characters than vice-versa. ...It's an obviously contrived example, yes, and I wish they'd put a better one there.
ArcTan 12-31-07, 08:00 PM	This sounds like a DM-adjudication nightmare As long as people can agree that the definition of "reasonable" is subjective and varies from person to person, it's not a big deal. (And that *is* the only reasonable definition of "reasonable" -- that it depends on the person.)