Buff Limit??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buff Limit??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Taureus_Drakken
02-09-07, 03:26 AM Has anyone come up with a limit to the number of buffs that can be in place on a single character?

The reason being, that if it is possible, my current character will be using a combination of 12 buffs (from a wand, potions, and cast spells) that will have him dealing 2x 3d8+4d6+21 19-20/x3 damage when charging...he will have a +23 to confirm the crit. He will also be Large, and have a base land speed of 50 ft.

Is this too much for a 8th level character to be able to do?
CantripN
02-09-07, 03:31 AM No limit, and nothing special, either. You'll run out of those buffs, cash and HP rather quickly if you act so brashly. Also: I'd love to Dispel that.
Taureus_Drakken
02-09-07, 03:33 AM Ok, just want to be sure.

And only 5 of the buffs will be gone after the first round...I will still be doing 2d8+12 /x3 after that...but the battle will be over shortly following the first round, as I am one party member of 6 going against a couple of Barbarians...no Dispel in sight from the other guys.
runestar
02-09-07, 08:20 AM There is no way you can maintain that degree of buffing for long without severely draining your resources. It sounds like the sort of luxury I would indulge in only if I knew the BBEG was ahead. And even then, stuff like dispel magic can easily screw around with you.

I would say allow it.
Matthew77
02-09-07, 08:28 AM The sorcerer in my high-level campaign casts 17 spells on herself as soon as she wakes up in the morning. Gotta love persistent spell.

It was kind of funny when a Dragon cast Reaving Dispel on her though :)
RellenMarn
02-09-07, 09:17 AM Can anyone else say Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil's dream? Kaleidoscopic Doom, baby!
Nezkrul
02-09-07, 10:41 AM The sorcerer in my high-level campaign casts 17 spells on herself as soon as she wakes up in the morning. Gotta love persistent spell.:)

How high? wowsers.
tarkin
02-09-07, 01:27 PM He is almost certainly using some of the more 'questionable' means of Persistenting a spell.

Unless he is an Epic character wasting epic slots to get +4 to ac.
Zherog
02-09-07, 01:33 PM You can cast as many buff spells as you want, through any combo of potions, magic items, spell slots, and spell-like abilities.

However, be careful. Make sure all the bonuses stack. For example, if two spells give you an enhancement bonus on your Strength only the best one applies (and that includes gauntlets of ogre power and belt of giant Strength).
TheCobra
02-09-07, 01:54 PM I don't think 17 spells is so many.

Extended shapechange, mindblank, moment of prescience, elemental body, energy immunity x 5, persistent shield, greater anticipate teleportation, superior resistance, heart of fire, heart of earth, heart of water, heart of air, nondetection, false life, and see invisibility.

That's 19 spells right there.
Matthew77
02-09-07, 02:04 PM How high? wowsers.

Character was level 20. Full sorcerer spell progression and high CHA means lots of spell slots to burn.

Handful of high-level buffs like mindblank, energy immunity, moment of presience.

Handful of low-level spells with 1 hour per level durations like mage armor, greater resistance, false life

The rest were high level slots used on persistent low-level spells... detect magic, see invisibility, protection from evil, cat's grace, that sort of thing.

It's a good use of resources until you start hitting opponents that can do greater dispel at will :)
TheCobra
02-09-07, 02:17 PM It's a good use of resources until you start hitting opponents that can do greater dispel at will

Eh, eventually +20 ain't gonna cut it. And a simple ring of counterspells stops the first one. Spell turning also stops one. And having your buffs dispelled isn't fatal. If they didn't have to dispel the buffs, they'd probably be doing more dangerous things to you.
Kimokeo
02-09-07, 03:56 PM Where's the resist poison and suffocation?
tyrecian
02-09-07, 07:30 PM lol this sounds like the arena against pitchblade. You get 10 rounds to buff yourself and party. yes in this setting every member of our full party got buffed to hell and back. We had 3 casters casting/using a wand charge, ever round of the 10. One can never be too sure.

and dont listen to the naysayers who tell you that you are wasting resources, if your character survives because of buffs that make you stronger so be it. That is several thousand not used on a Rez.

Just make sure that you have enough to last, and dont underestimate situations. If you can get high bonuses so can your opponents. It can also be a good idea to get higher caster level potions of low level spells. A Shield of Faith at 1st level is +2 for 10 rounds, but created by a 10th level caster, it changes drastically, and is harder to dispel. Sometimes you have to get creative with your buffs, otherwise you will be dispelled fairly fast.

I always assume 1 dispel will take as many as 3 of my low level buffs at any given time.
Kradlo
02-09-07, 08:12 PM If the party has virtually unlimited time to prepare for a battle, they're going to employ every possible buff spell they beforehand. Zherog is correct, though; check the type of bonuses, so you know which ones stack.

If the BBEG blithely waits for the party to pop in buffed to the hilt so he can expire at their feet, he deserves to die. A good villain has contingencies prepared, and buffs are often vulnerable to dispelling.

Another thing to recall is that many of those buffs have limited duration, so the first encounter may drain their resources.
primemover003
02-09-07, 09:13 PM Forget Dispel... you're ripe for a Reciprocal Gyre! Even the SpC one is gonna do some nice damage to you, 17d12 anyone! That's 110 damage average! Ouch! Unless your wiz/sor got like a 18 con he's toast!
TheCobra
02-09-07, 10:43 PM Forget Dispel... you're ripe for a Reciprocal Gyre! Even the SpC one is gonna do some nice damage to you, 17d12 anyone! That's 110 damage average! Ouch! Unless your wiz/sor got like a 18 con he's toast!

Yeah, that spell is pretty good against high-level casters. Watch out for spell turning, though.
runestar
02-09-07, 11:05 PM The nice thing about extended mindblank is that it lasts for 2 days, meaning that you can cast extended mindblank on your whole party, then rest to regain all your spell slots, then go adventuring. Same goes for any other spells with duration of 24 hours, such as extended greater magic weapon(at high enough caster lv). Or use persistant+extend spell combo to make any spell of 2nd lv or lower last for 2 days. Then sleep...:)
Taureus_Drakken
02-11-07, 08:14 PM Thanks everyone for your feedback.

My only question is why does everyone keep talking about
dispels?

For this fight, the only spellcasters are the ones in the party.
runestar
02-11-07, 11:31 PM Because dispels are the most effective in punishing players for their over-reliance on buffing. That and there is no other way of getting around this. Another way is simply to allow the players to buff themselves, seeking solace in the fact that buffs represent resources expended regardless.:)
Yokomohoyo
02-12-07, 04:43 AM Two words for you.
Anti-Magic field

Ok, ok three if you say that a word divided by a hyphon is two lol
CaoSlayer
02-12-07, 08:09 AM Note that you ever can have the same spell affecting you over and over many times ever if only one can affect you.

Once, in a munchkin tournament I developed my "onion knight" named that way because I went into battle with about 50 buffs including 11 mage armors. Having replicates of your spells helps to make them harder to dispell since if they dispell the active one, other will be activated.

For a normal campaign you must be crazy for spending as much duplicated buffs on yourself.
runestar
02-12-07, 09:20 AM Well, it does make sense for warlocks to overlap their personal buffs multiple times to resist dispelling...

Dispelling fell flight alone is easy. Trying to punch through 500 castings of fell flight?:D
CaoSlayer
02-12-07, 10:41 AM Well, it does make sense for warlocks to overlap their personal buffs multiple times to resist dispelling...

Dispelling fell flight alone is easy. Trying to punch through 500 castings of fell flight?:D

of course if someone casts Spc on him wait to take about 200d6 damage or more.
Taureus_Drakken
02-12-07, 11:46 AM I still dont see why I would have to worry about it in this case.

The battle consists of the party against two barbs, yes, as someone already guessed it is against Pitch Blade. How exactly are two barbs going to utilize Dispel Magic? They can't use a scroll, and no one is going to intervene otherwise...and as far as i know, they don't have AMF.
runestar
02-12-07, 11:55 PM Trap of AMF or greater dispelling, or one of them might have a wand with a few charges of dispel magic, perhaps with the arcane schooling regional feat or a lv of sorc to activate it?...:cool:
Taureus_Drakken
02-13-07, 12:00 AM Ok, for starters, they are just straight barbs...nothing special that would allow any use of any sort of magical devices other than potions.

This isn't my first time playing through this campaign, and after the last time through I read up a little on some of the key encounters. Pitch Blade is just two really tough, Dwarf Barbarians...that is it...and there's no AMF trap.

Thanks though.
runestar
02-13-07, 09:15 AM Or just give it to them. Parity conditions suggests that each buff spell they cast would be 1 less attack spell to use against the barb, so it would supposedly all even out. That haste on the whole party could have been a preemptive fireball and the like. :) Stoneskin might have been an enervation or orb spell.

If they do both, it just means that they are overextending themselves and would have less resources to deal with the next encounter.
primemover003
02-13-07, 04:10 PM Well Taureus as you are a PC the Dispels and Recip. Gyres would be tactics for your DM to use against you if you consistantly use the mega buff routine you're asking about.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Taureus_Drakken 02-09-07, 03:26 AM	Has anyone come up with a limit to the number of buffs that can be in place on a single character? The reason being, that if it is possible, my current character will be using a combination of 12 buffs (from a wand, potions, and cast spells) that will have him dealing 2x 3d8+4d6+21 19-20/x3 damage when charging...he will have a +23 to confirm the crit. He will also be Large, and have a base land speed of 50 ft. Is this too much for a 8th level character to be able to do?
CantripN 02-09-07, 03:31 AM	No limit, and nothing special, either. You'll run out of those buffs, cash and HP rather quickly if you act so brashly. Also: I'd love to Dispel that.
Taureus_Drakken 02-09-07, 03:33 AM	Ok, just want to be sure. And only 5 of the buffs will be gone after the first round...I will still be doing 2d8+12 /x3 after that...but the battle will be over shortly following the first round, as I am one party member of 6 going against a couple of Barbarians...no Dispel in sight from the other guys.
runestar 02-09-07, 08:20 AM	There is no way you can maintain that degree of buffing for long without severely draining your resources. It sounds like the sort of luxury I would indulge in only if I knew the BBEG was ahead. And even then, stuff like dispel magic can easily screw around with you. I would say allow it.
Matthew77 02-09-07, 08:28 AM	The sorcerer in my high-level campaign casts 17 spells on herself as soon as she wakes up in the morning. Gotta love persistent spell. It was kind of funny when a Dragon cast Reaving Dispel on her though :)
RellenMarn 02-09-07, 09:17 AM	Can anyone else say Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil's dream? Kaleidoscopic Doom, baby!
Nezkrul 02-09-07, 10:41 AM	The sorcerer in my high-level campaign casts 17 spells on herself as soon as she wakes up in the morning. Gotta love persistent spell.:) How high? wowsers.
tarkin 02-09-07, 01:27 PM	He is almost certainly using some of the more 'questionable' means of Persistenting a spell. Unless he is an Epic character wasting epic slots to get +4 to ac.
Zherog 02-09-07, 01:33 PM	You can cast as many buff spells as you want, through any combo of potions, magic items, spell slots, and spell-like abilities. However, be careful. Make sure all the bonuses stack. For example, if two spells give you an enhancement bonus on your Strength only the best one applies (and that includes gauntlets of ogre power and belt of giant Strength).
TheCobra 02-09-07, 01:54 PM	I don't think 17 spells is so many. Extended shapechange, mindblank, moment of prescience, elemental body, energy immunity x 5, persistent shield, greater anticipate teleportation, superior resistance, heart of fire, heart of earth, heart of water, heart of air, nondetection, false life, and see invisibility. That's 19 spells right there.
Matthew77 02-09-07, 02:04 PM	How high? wowsers. Character was level 20. Full sorcerer spell progression and high CHA means lots of spell slots to burn. Handful of high-level buffs like mindblank, energy immunity, moment of presience. Handful of low-level spells with 1 hour per level durations like mage armor, greater resistance, false life The rest were high level slots used on persistent low-level spells... detect magic, see invisibility, protection from evil, cat's grace, that sort of thing. It's a good use of resources until you start hitting opponents that can do greater dispel at will :)
TheCobra 02-09-07, 02:17 PM	It's a good use of resources until you start hitting opponents that can do greater dispel at will Eh, eventually +20 ain't gonna cut it. And a simple ring of counterspells stops the first one. Spell turning also stops one. And having your buffs dispelled isn't fatal. If they didn't have to dispel the buffs, they'd probably be doing more dangerous things to you.
Kimokeo 02-09-07, 03:56 PM	Where's the resist poison and suffocation?
tyrecian 02-09-07, 07:30 PM	lol this sounds like the arena against pitchblade. You get 10 rounds to buff yourself and party. yes in this setting every member of our full party got buffed to hell and back. We had 3 casters casting/using a wand charge, ever round of the 10. One can never be too sure. and dont listen to the naysayers who tell you that you are wasting resources, if your character survives because of buffs that make you stronger so be it. That is several thousand not used on a Rez. Just make sure that you have enough to last, and dont underestimate situations. If you can get high bonuses so can your opponents. It can also be a good idea to get higher caster level potions of low level spells. A Shield of Faith at 1st level is +2 for 10 rounds, but created by a 10th level caster, it changes drastically, and is harder to dispel. Sometimes you have to get creative with your buffs, otherwise you will be dispelled fairly fast. I always assume 1 dispel will take as many as 3 of my low level buffs at any given time.
Kradlo 02-09-07, 08:12 PM	If the party has virtually unlimited time to prepare for a battle, they're going to employ every possible buff spell they beforehand. Zherog is correct, though; check the type of bonuses, so you know which ones stack. If the BBEG blithely waits for the party to pop in buffed to the hilt so he can expire at their feet, he deserves to die. A good villain has contingencies prepared, and buffs are often vulnerable to dispelling. Another thing to recall is that many of those buffs have limited duration, so the first encounter may drain their resources.
primemover003 02-09-07, 09:13 PM	Forget Dispel... you're ripe for a Reciprocal Gyre! Even the SpC one is gonna do some nice damage to you, 17d12 anyone! That's 110 damage average! Ouch! Unless your wiz/sor got like a 18 con he's toast!
TheCobra 02-09-07, 10:43 PM	Forget Dispel... you're ripe for a Reciprocal Gyre! Even the SpC one is gonna do some nice damage to you, 17d12 anyone! That's 110 damage average! Ouch! Unless your wiz/sor got like a 18 con he's toast! Yeah, that spell is pretty good against high-level casters. Watch out for spell turning, though.
runestar 02-09-07, 11:05 PM	The nice thing about extended mindblank is that it lasts for 2 days, meaning that you can cast extended mindblank on your whole party, then rest to regain all your spell slots, then go adventuring. Same goes for any other spells with duration of 24 hours, such as extended greater magic weapon(at high enough caster lv). Or use persistant+extend spell combo to make any spell of 2nd lv or lower last for 2 days. Then sleep...:)
Taureus_Drakken 02-11-07, 08:14 PM	Thanks everyone for your feedback. My only question is why does everyone keep talking about dispels? For this fight, the only spellcasters are the ones in the party.
runestar 02-11-07, 11:31 PM	Because dispels are the most effective in punishing players for their over-reliance on buffing. That and there is no other way of getting around this. Another way is simply to allow the players to buff themselves, seeking solace in the fact that buffs represent resources expended regardless.:)
Yokomohoyo 02-12-07, 04:43 AM	Two words for you. Anti-Magic field Ok, ok three if you say that a word divided by a hyphon is two lol
CaoSlayer 02-12-07, 08:09 AM	Note that you ever can have the same spell affecting you over and over many times ever if only one can affect you. Once, in a munchkin tournament I developed my "onion knight" named that way because I went into battle with about 50 buffs including 11 mage armors. Having replicates of your spells helps to make them harder to dispell since if they dispell the active one, other will be activated. For a normal campaign you must be crazy for spending as much duplicated buffs on yourself.
runestar 02-12-07, 09:20 AM	Well, it does make sense for warlocks to overlap their personal buffs multiple times to resist dispelling... Dispelling fell flight alone is easy. Trying to punch through 500 castings of fell flight?:D
CaoSlayer 02-12-07, 10:41 AM	Well, it does make sense for warlocks to overlap their personal buffs multiple times to resist dispelling... Dispelling fell flight alone is easy. Trying to punch through 500 castings of fell flight?:D of course if someone casts Spc on him wait to take about 200d6 damage or more.
Taureus_Drakken 02-12-07, 11:46 AM	I still dont see why I would have to worry about it in this case. The battle consists of the party against two barbs, yes, as someone already guessed it is against Pitch Blade. How exactly are two barbs going to utilize Dispel Magic? They can't use a scroll, and no one is going to intervene otherwise...and as far as i know, they don't have AMF.
runestar 02-12-07, 11:55 PM	Trap of AMF or greater dispelling, or one of them might have a wand with a few charges of dispel magic, perhaps with the arcane schooling regional feat or a lv of sorc to activate it?...:cool:
Taureus_Drakken 02-13-07, 12:00 AM	Ok, for starters, they are just straight barbs...nothing special that would allow any use of any sort of magical devices other than potions. This isn't my first time playing through this campaign, and after the last time through I read up a little on some of the key encounters. Pitch Blade is just two really tough, Dwarf Barbarians...that is it...and there's no AMF trap. Thanks though.
runestar 02-13-07, 09:15 AM	Or just give it to them. Parity conditions suggests that each buff spell they cast would be 1 less attack spell to use against the barb, so it would supposedly all even out. That haste on the whole party could have been a preemptive fireball and the like. :) Stoneskin might have been an enervation or orb spell. If they do both, it just means that they are overextending themselves and would have less resources to deal with the next encounter.
primemover003 02-13-07, 04:10 PM	Well Taureus as you are a PC the Dispels and Recip. Gyres would be tactics for your DM to use against you if you consistantly use the mega buff routine you're asking about.