Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pickles78RSA 07-03-04, 09:19 AM	ok so i have a little bit of a problem we are 16th level... there is a bugbear with no racial HD...(We made the character without realizing the LA would include the monstrous levels as well...so we dropped those...and weakened some of the characters other abilities...) but he is 7/5/3 cleric barbarian assassin... he has a high strength and a decent enough dexterity... he has the following feats monkey grip greataxe, monkeygrip falchion... he then took improved critical on both and then TWF and ITWF... my problem is this in barbarian rage he does (he has paid for permenancy enlarge) 3d6(base damage for large)+2d6(vicious)+1d6(fire)+1d6(lightn ing) +15 then the falcion does 2d6+1d6 (Fire)+7 that makes 7d6 per attack with the great axe...he gets 3 a round So he deals on a full attack 27d6+59!!!!! then he could sneak attack as well... um...that kicks ass...it also seems wrong... the thing is the axe is only +1 keen vicius shock flame...for a +5 weapon... that really kicks ass
TheGnomishWizard 07-03-04, 09:45 AM	I'm curious how a cleric 5/barb 5 got enough ranks in hide and move silently to meet the requirements for assassin. Other than that what is the question you have? Do you want us to tell you that something is wrong?
pickles78RSA 07-03-04, 09:48 AM	cleric level 7 so max cross class is 5...barbarian 5 so that gives him an additional max of 4 to play with so he has max 9 in hide and MS...he took those skills... tom it is unfair because me the poor DM really has a hard time when the player picks up 21d6 and says this is plus 45 and then he says i have two more attaks to come...
BlackSmith 07-03-04, 10:07 AM	we got 7th lvl orc ftr that does absolutely min 60 damage with charge. on crit around 180. bard:"look dragon!" pal: "to battle and glory and blaa blaa blaa" and other jada jada jada orc: "me kill!" *charge* *splat* orc: "me eat dragon!" dm: "huoh..." and the papers go to trashcan you realy should play that bugbear by the rules and use those level adjsutments and racial HDs...
Egres 07-03-04, 10:17 AM	Isn't this the Spells and Magic items forum?
pickles78RSA 07-03-04, 10:19 AM	yeah and the fact that a vicious keen lightning and flame weapon kicks ass and does too much damage... vicious is far too powerful for just a +1 weapon bonus
BlackSmith 07-03-04, 10:41 AM	well if you hitwith it and can get your self disabled... i think it is just nice. and in balance
Seeker95 07-03-04, 11:16 AM	Targeted dispel magic his sorry hide until he looks like a normal bugbear again. Or use an anti-magic field generated by a battle cleric. Then kill him 'til it hurts. Or hit him with a ghost.
Endless Dave 07-03-04, 01:40 PM	Aye, after he tears through the first few tens of opponents, someone is going to muster up a Dispel Magic for him. Furthermore, dual-wielding monkey-gripped weapons carries penalties of -6/-6 :eek: say goodbye to any chance to hit with your iterative attacks! Finally... yeah that weapon is really powerful.
Moonstonedragon 07-03-04, 01:51 PM	We got a player in one of the games that we play, thats a monk that does a MIN of over 300 damage, and we are freaking 9th level. Course its because dm was to generous with wealth and all. But still 300 dang. So I feel your pain pickles, I aint the DM, but none of the other chars can hold a candle to this guy lol.
Tehril 07-03-04, 01:58 PM	jumping jimmy haversacks! My 9th level half orc, barb/ranger/rogue does 1d12+10 or so before raging... +2d6 SA. And he's only around 10K under the wealth rating. No buffs. How is it, disgusting +5 enhancement weapons aside, you guys manage such huge damage outputs?
Seeker95 07-03-04, 03:42 PM	Originally posted by Tehril How is it, disgusting +5 enhancement weapons aside, you guys manage such huge damage outputs? Munchkin herder for a DM.
masterofmayhem 07-03-04, 03:50 PM	Originally posted by Moonstonedragon We got a player in one of the games that we play, thats a monk that does a MIN of over 300 damage, and we are freaking 9th level. Course its because dm was to generous with wealth and all. But still 300 dang. So I feel your pain pickles, I aint the DM, but none of the other chars can hold a candle to this guy lol. :OMG! Errr . . . may I ask how he achieves such incredible damage?
Dire Celestial Bonobo 07-03-04, 04:32 PM	Originally posted by pickles78RSA cleric level 7 so max cross class is 5...barbarian 5 so that gives him an additional max of 4 to play with so he has max 9 in hide and MS Incorrect. Cleric 7/Barb 5 is a 12th-level character, meaning he has max ranks of 15 in class skills, and 7 in cross-class skills. An Assassin requires Hide and MS of 8 ranks to join, meaning a Cleric/Barb could not take Assassin until at least 14th level. In particular, your character would need to be level 8/5/2 or 7/6/2, since he couldn't have taken Assassin as early as he did. (C/B/A 7/6/2 would also be good, since then the character wouldn't be taking XP penalties from unbalanced multiclassing.) it is unfair because me the poor DM really has a hard time when the player picks up 21d6 and says this is plus 45 and then he says i have two more attaks to come... Assuming you're playing 3.5, there's plenty a DM could do. First, your bugbear won't have the best attack bonus. He's lost 3 points of BAB by multiclassing, and he takes -4 to all attacks due to TWF, he takes another -2 to all attacks due to Monkey Grip, and another -1 due to Large size, for a total penalty of -4-2-1 = -7. Against that, he has BAB +13, raging Str +12 (based on offhand damage), and a +1 weapon. In total, the character has only +19 to hit with his best attack, ranging down to +11 with his third axe. Since a CR 16 monster typically has an AC of about 30, the character will - on average - only hit with 0.8 axe strikes and 0.75 falchion strikes per full attack, for an average of ((3d6+15)*1.2 + 4d6)*0.8 + ((2d6+7)*1.3 + 1d6)*0.75 = 52 damage/round (taking into account criticals and assuming no elemental resistances). Nice, but not over-the-top. In other words, if he wants to challenge you your DM should look into adversaries with appropriate Armour Classes. Second, your bugbear isn't going to be doing too well for AC himself. -2 (raging) -1 (Large) -1 (Enlarge Dex penalty) with no shield (TWF) is going to mean an AC in the 20-25 range, most likely, which means pretty much everything should be hitting the bugbear pretty much all the time, and often with Power Attack. A particular problem would be missile weapons. In other words, if he wants to challenge you, your DM should keep in mind your low AC. Third, TWF relies on full attacks. The DM could challenge you easily enough by making you fight mobile enemies who don't wait around to be mangled in melee slugfests.
Heron_Marked_Blade 07-03-04, 07:31 PM	By your description, it looks like you're playing 3.0 (bugbear had to take Monkey Grip twice and can use a Falchion [not a light weapon] in his off-hand). First piece of advice: 3.0 is much more easily abused than 3.5. I don't mean to start an argument about this (so please don't derail this thread with one), but the fact remains that 3.5 patched a lot more abusable situations than it broke. Dire Celestial Bonobo is correct regarding cross class skills. You use the total character levels, NOT individual class skills, to determine maximum cross class skill ranks. His points on possible counters are also well thought out and are pretty standard solutions to any over-the-top melee character. After the first encounter, enemies are certainly going to try to level the playing field, which means dispel, dispel, dispel until the bugbear is no longer enLarged. That also means the bugbear'd be trying to dual-wield weapons that are suddenly too large for him to dual-wield. He'd have to switch to one weapon and use it two-handed. The viscious property also means that he's doing 1d6 damage to himself per hit. A 16th-level character with such low AC can't afford to deal damage to himself every time he hits an enemy, no matter how many HP he has. This character has obviously tried to min/max the character for sheer melee damage output, rather ineffectively I must add. Let him have his moment of glory. If it's longer than a moment, the DM (you, did you say?) isn't giving appropriate 16th-level challenges. For example, CR 16 creature = Pit Fiend. Notice the "DR 25/+2" entry. The bugbear immediately does 25 less points of damage per hit since his weapons only have +1 enhancements (you don't count the extra abilities). And that's if he even hits. The 1d6 damage per hit against himself still applies, even if the Pit Fiend's DR absorbs all the damage. With his low AC, he will get jacked in only a few rounds. Oh, by the way -- make him roll his attacks out in the open where you can see them. :D
Bulabase 07-03-04, 08:00 PM	Originally posted by Dire Celestial Bonobo In total, the character has only +19 to hit with his best attack, ranging down to +11 with his third axe. Since a CR 16 monster typically has an AC of about 30, the character will - on average - only hit with 0.8 axe strikes and 0.75 falchion strikes per full attack, for an average of ((3d6+15)*1.2 + 4d6)*0.8 + ((2d6+7)*1.3 + 1d6)*0.75 = 52 damage/round (taking into account criticals and assuming no elemental resistances). Nice, but not over-the-top. You make that look so easy. :bow:
glenw77 07-03-04, 08:07 PM	The other thing to do attack with ranged attack fliers. Arrowhawks are great examples. They have prefect flight and a ranged touch attack that does 2d6 to 2d8 electric damage. Another strategy is to use a LOT of low hit point creatures. If any one of his attacks will take out ANY creature, then just use 5 creatures with low hit points, then he needs 5 attacks to take them out. Each creature has a minimum of 5% to hit him anyway (natural 20), give them ranged weapons or ones with good reach. Creatures with low HP are also severly going to reduce the impact of the visious against them (he would have killed them anyway) making the visious more of a damaging effect on him. Don't ignore the Awsome nature of Kobolds. Little and sneaky and trap heavy. They come in packs of up to 100. Two Words: Arrow SLITS. Use a Shambling Mound, they are immune to criticals, they have Fire Resistance 10, they are not only immune to electricity but gain 1d4 con every time they are hit with it. If they know about Shamblers, hook one up with a Gnome who casts Seeming on it to make it appear like something else, or uses Dust of Illusion. Use an Advanced Shambler if you need too. Use a rust monster, again, team it with a smart mage who maybe casts stone skin on it and dust of illusion to make it look like a bullettee or some such. An Advanced Grey Ooze would also be good. Advanced to increase the required saving throw with the weapon hits. They are immune to criticals and fire. Black Pudding is even better, its Acid resist saves for the destruction of weapons is even higher (21) and they get no damage from slashing and pierceing weapons, instead splitting. Remember every time you hit a rust monster or a grey ooze with ANY metal weapon there is always a chance of rolling a 1 on the save. That means a 5% chance that the item will be destroyed. Use the improved invisible, flying mage strategy. USE DISARM ATTEMPTS! Mages with Telekenesis are really good at this. Dispell magic on the weapon followed by a shatter works well. Remember, permanent spells can be DISPELLED permanently. A first level mage with a wand of dispell magic could end his permanet enlargement. If he is shrunk back down then his weapons will be too big for him (note that if you actually allowed him to enlarge permanently his regular sized weapons that was a mistake because any item that leaves the enlarged character's possession returns to normal size independent of the duration of the spell. ) Also, make sure he always has to deal with his enlarges status, He is to big for mounts, he is too heavy for a lot of support structures, He gets -4 to hide checks, he is much easier to flank, he will have trouble getting through small openings ( ADD a LOT of small opennings). He needs armor and cloths and equipment to be specially made. He needs to deal with a society that is not designed for Large creatures and might not take kindly to them. When all else fails: MIRROR OF OPPOSITION
Seeker95 07-03-04, 08:58 PM	Suddenly this big bad bugbear is more a really big bad idea!
Dire Celestial Bonobo 07-03-04, 10:27 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Suddenly this big bad bugbear is more a really big bad idea! FWIW, I think it's a bad idea for the DM to do anything that'll target the bugbear's weaknesses too efficiently, for the same reason it's a bad idea for a DM to keep stealing a Wizard's spellbook - it's no fun for the player. It's a 16th-level character, and should be allowed (and encouraged) to lay down a 16th-level-sized can of whoopass on a regular basis. IMHO, the various methods people have suggested for exploiting or playing up the character's weaknesses should only be used sparingly and judiciously to ensure that the bugbear doesn't steal anyone else's thunder. So long as there's plenty of thunder to go 'round, the bugbear can do 150 damage/round all day as far as I'm concerned. (Although I would suggest a character being built like that look into a double weapon instead. Although he'll do 2d6 base at large size, it'll cost him two fewer feats and he'll be at +4 to hit compared to where he is now. He could arguably Weapon Focus and Monkey Grip a larger double weapon and get 3d6 damage for all attacks, at +3 to hit over where he is now, and with 1.5 Str on rounds he can only make a single attack - should give him about a 50% bonus to damage, I think.)
glenw77 07-03-04, 11:38 PM	True, a DM sould not specifically target PCs unless they are A) Leaving behind people who want to hunt down and kill them or B) are really asking for it. Anyway, I don't think the DM would be asking for help unless he realized that this character is causing problems for the group (steeling thunder) or if he is not providing a challenge to the player (no fun for DM or PCs). Also, I find that many DMs get stuck in a rut of not diversly challenging the PCs. Many just throw in a slugfest whenever there is a required encounter, with the concept of high "tactics" being using basic spell effects or thowing in a creature with damage resistance. They leave the craftiness to the PCs. Classicly these situations tend to favor the guys with high hit points, high AC, and that can deal out a lot of raw damage, basically your fighter. Every now and then you gotta throw in a Shambling Mound living with a pack of Shock Lizards. Or a Troll with a ring of Fire Resistance. A pit trap filled with water (Really hard to swim in that Plate Male) Or an invisible rogue holding his action right next to the PC mage, waiting for the Mage to cast his high level uber spell provoking a sneak attack to the spleen disrupting the spell, then the rogue takes his action and twacks him again. This was possible because the party was stuck in a "dungeon" with another party who was actually sent to kill them. The group of Bards and Rogues had the party pretty much convinced that they were pretty weak (even though they didn't trust them). Anyway, the party was observed for several days and the rogues learned the battle tactics of the PCs. It was a Hard fought combat but the PCs pulled it off in the end and the battle was spectacular. I'm really rambling now, but the point is that when you challenge the PCs with intelligent situations you make memerable games. And it tends to lead to the PCs getting craftier too.
pickles78RSA 07-04-04, 06:37 AM	yeah the thing is we did not know about the LA for Monstrous humanoid levels...so the bugbear had the skills to get into assassin... and in the last dungeon we were playing i took a break and played a paladin8/wizard3/mystic theruge3 it was not metagamed at all and i loved my character...he had a +2 demonbane holy short spear and a hefty AC... he had a simple air of 1st and second edition about him... it was another one of our group that wanted to DM...he did not throw any of the big DR's against us so his monsters were obliterated... I as the paladin managed to convert the assassins alignment...throug roleplaying...so he has now exchanged his 3 assassin levels for some of my bounty hunter class...see sig...i need a few more abilities so help is needed!>??!!? when i next DM they will feel the wrath...our last DM did not use his spells well...i will... Plus i will throw pit fiends at them?!?!?!?!?!? anyway tom
Zhen 07-04-04, 09:24 AM	Originally posted by pickles78RSA it is unfair because me the poor DM really has a hard time when the player picks up 21d6 and says this is plus 45 and then he says i have two more attaks to come... So he always hits?:confused: Well then, does it matter? Cause if he always hits with that attack bonus of his, the creatures would go down in an instant anyways?:D
pickles78RSA 07-04-04, 10:12 AM	of course he dosent hit all the time but he has like +25 or so on his attack in rage...so it is quite likley... but the main part of this thread is that weapons can be overpowered just in game sence... like flaming it is a +1 bonus enchantment...so you have a +1 flaming axe...that deals 1d12+1d6+1...thats too good if you ask me... i remember the good old days when people just had a +3 sword...none of this +1 vicious flaming shocking, ice, acid great axe dealing 1d12+6d6+1... thats whats wrong with D&D
BlackSmith 07-04-04, 11:05 AM	bah, you havent seen nothing... image a fighter with all the feats pumped in TWF and to weapon specialication trees. image him having two light weapons. image both of them being +1 Acid, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Vicious, Merciful, Wounding, True Striking. its +6d6 and -1 Con per hit plus what the weapon ever does. ..and if you got 8 attacks (10 hasted) per round. well, you imagine the results. and no, it is not wrong. it is a trade of to get more hits. there is no joy making ~100 damage if you cant hit your enemy. so the bugbears weapon choices dont seem to-hit wise even if they do little more damage than his fellow party members +2 longsword. you can play that LA thing so that he/it is treated this point on being +2 levels higher according to the LA. that way he/it descents nicely to his right level. side of that. tom, are you drunk when posting? or realy young? because the text is realy ....not so fluent or ...smart/efficient (can't put it in better words). having lots of dots does not make it any better.
Heron_Marked_Blade 07-04-04, 11:06 AM	Originally posted by pickles78RSA thats whats wrong with D&D Who says you as the DM have to allow access to every weapon enchantment in the DMG? Don't be afraid as a DM to take a hard line and hold it. The reason +3 weapons were so much more valued in previous editions is because most DMs didn't hand out custom-built weapons with all sorts of effects unless characters really worked for it. If you wanted sweet weapons, you had to gain access to a moonblade, which usually involved a series of major quests, or do some other major services/quests to gain access to other weapons. Of course, I don't assume all DMs were this way, considering some very Monty Haul campaigns I had the unfortunate privilege of witnessing in 2E. My point is, the only reason this bugbear does what he does is because the DM allowed him to. ("But it's in the DMG so I can do it!" is not a valid reason to allow something in a campaign.) And if the DM allows him to build a cheesy character, the DM had better be prepared to keep him in line.
Count Arioch the 28th 07-04-04, 11:15 AM	That's what's wrong with D&D, huh? You DO realize that sword is VERY vulnerable to sundering, right? And he can't sunder anything that's +1 or less? Piling on enhancements is a good way to get your weapon broken. Sunder is something that anyone can do, and with two feats, they can do it very well. If you as a DM don't like weapons like that, then go ahead and break it. Have them spend 25,000 gp to have it repaired every adventure, and if they try to ineffectively sunder their better equipped opponent's weapons, tell them why. After the first or second time, they'll get the hint. The only thing that's wrong with D&D is inexperience DMs making comments about things they don't really understand.:smirk: (Note that doesn't only apply to the thread starter, this thread in particular sems chock full of incorrect information and bad advice, until a few people jumped in and set things straight.)
BlackSmith 07-04-04, 12:27 PM	i stand corrected
Egres 07-04-04, 02:03 PM	Count means "he can't sunder anything that's +2 or more" (you can sunder items that are nonmagical or have same enhancement bonus) Wrong. Check the DMG errata.
Seeker95 07-04-04, 03:17 PM	Egres, I've checked the DMG Errata, and the word "sunder" isn't to be found anywhere. Might you be thinking of a different source?
Seeker95 07-04-04, 03:22 PM	Ahhh... found the reference Egres was thinking of. It is not in the errata. It is in the FAQ. Here is the relevant section: From the FAQ: The Dungeon Master’s Guide says that only a magic weapon with the same or higher enhancement bonus can sunder another magic weapon or a magic shield, but the text for the sunder attack in the Player’s Handbook doesn’t mention this. You can sunder a magic item with any kind of weapon; you don’t need something with an equal or higher enhancement bonus. Text to the contrary (found on page 222 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide) is erroneous.
paradoxmage 07-04-04, 03:40 PM	correct the only thing a magical + does is add to the hardness of weapon( a +2 weapon has a +2 hardness). Bugbears have hide and move silent as a racial skill and in useing race skill points can make the required 8 ranks for assasin PrC. so with 12 class levels and race skills could possibly have 10 ranks in each.
Egres 07-04-04, 05:04 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Ahhh... found the reference Egres was thinking of. It is not in the errata. It is in the FAQ. Here is the relevant section: Flurry of posts!AH!
Egres 07-04-04, 05:06 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Ahhh... found the reference Egres was thinking of. It is not in the errata. It is in the FAQ. Here is the relevant section: You can find it even in the DMG 3.5 errata,in the Hardness and Hit points paragraph. Check it out!;)
BlackSmith 07-04-04, 05:30 PM	Haaa! my memory served me right. i did remeber right that in 3,5 they fixed this fool "my sword has bigger dic.. enhacnement bonus than yours!" but i checked SRD to be sure and thats why i gave wrong info. thanks for the exact fact data location. have to write it down.
Seeker95 07-04-04, 09:19 PM	Originally posted by Egres You can find it even in the DMG 3.5 errata,in the Hardness and Hit points paragraph.Here is the entry in the DMG errata.From the DMG Errata: Hardness and Hit Points Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 222 Problem: The first paragraph is not consistent with similar information for shields on page 217. Solution: Delete the first sentence after the boldface header. Change the next sentence to read as follows: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.No mention of sundering. You might be able to infer the sundering impact, but it is not explicit.
Egres 07-04-04, 09:45 PM	No mention of sundering. You might be able to infer the sundering impact, but it is not explicit. IMHO it was clear. However,no problemo.:D
Seeker95 07-04-04, 09:59 PM	Originally posted by Egres IMHO it was clear. However,no problemo.No biggie. I think I was just feeling kinda ornery today, so I was being more literal than normal (if that is possible!) :D
[GSV] Kirstar 07-05-04, 03:52 AM	ah one of those characters. other than the skill points thing (mentioned above) and nopt allowing stacking of certain feats...... when you score a hit with a critical its only the base damage + damage bonus that is affected. so a 2d6 + 2d6 v (x3 crit) weapon does 6d6 + 2d6 v get a mage to fly over him invisible. dominate him and get him to kill the rest of the party. then get him to attack the local city by himself and you have a dead PC party. then next time dont let such stackers exist.
Hypersmurf 07-05-04, 06:40 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Here is the entry in the DMG errata.No mention of sundering. You might be able to infer the sundering impact, but it is not explicit. Um? Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points. What do you think "Delete the first sentence after the boldface header" means? None of that's relevant anyway, of course, since the Monkey Grip evidence (as noted earlier) suggests he's playing 3E, not 3.5. Which means, naturally, that Enlarge doesn't increase him a size category, so either way he's got problems :) -Hyp.
BlackSmith 07-05-04, 06:49 AM	LOL for whole this bugbear! he is breaking so many rules that you can't say he is playing DnD anymore.
pickles78RSA 07-05-04, 07:07 AM	but the thing is we are playing 3.5 with some of the other old edition books, I personally don't like the complete warrior, but we have used some of the weapons, feats and some classes that i deam not overpowered... I will definatly be sundering that weapon...or even stealing it... the party is basically evil so i will be throwing a couple of very high level paladins and maybe a titan when they go up a couple of levels... tom
Seeker95 07-05-04, 08:32 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf Um? What do you think "Delete the first sentence after the boldface header" means?Hyp, you've done it again. Ignored the trees for the forest. Or more specifically, ignored the rest of the words written in the same post you quoted. I said you could infer that it allows sundering regardless of relative enhancements. The words in the errata do not mention sunder. In fact, if you do what the errata says, you lose all reference to sunder. So, like I said, the errata does not say that you can sunder any weapon. It only removes the line that limits what you can sunder. It is the FAQ that clarifies what you can do.
Egres 07-05-04, 08:51 AM	So, like I said, the errata does not say that you can sunder any weapon. It only removes the line that limits what you can sunder. With this explanation you are giving Hypersmurf an easy reply. If you remove the limits to what i can do,i don't need to know what i can do. If i can do A,B and C,but not D,and you remove the D limit,well...you have understood. Please,don't see this as flaming!:angel:
Seeker95 07-05-04, 10:59 AM	Originally posted by Egres Please,don't see this as flaming!I don't view it as flaming. Here's my line of reasoning for questioning Hyp's assumption (and your initial claim) that the answer is in the errata. The answer to the question is in the FAQ. The question is both asked and answered in the FAQ. But your pointed to the errata. Hyp pointed to the errata. Neither of you is wrong in pointing to the errata. I do not deny that the errata removes the necessity for asking the question, but it carries no explanation. The errata does not clarify or explain or answer. It requires that you adjust the text and then re-interpret the text. Quoting the errata does not answer the question. Quoting the FAQ does.
Hypersmurf 07-05-04, 03:31 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 So, like I said, the errata does not say that you can sunder any weapon. It only removes the line that limits what you can sunder. ... riii-ight? It is the FAQ that clarifies what you can do. The FAQ is an unnecessary clarification. It's perfectly clarified by the errata. There was confusion because passages in two books conflicted. The errata changed one book so the passages agreed. Voila - clarification. -Hyp.
Seeker95 07-05-04, 07:37 PM	Hyp. There's a tree or two in the forest. Stop and pay attention to them from time to time. You'll sound redundant a lot less, and will create fewer arguments where there was no disagreement to begin with.
Azzedar 07-05-04, 07:37 PM	I think 95% of PCs that want to be permanently enlarged are like a box of "Dunkin Donuts" brand donut holes....(munchkins) Its probably a weird experience...being so much bigger...he has difficulty indoors at any civilized society (assuming the party doesn't leave him at the gates...being a massive bugbear)...although I suppose in those terms it can be countered with temporary transmutation spells. Have you ever asked the character why he wanted to be enlarged?... my suggestion would be to stock Dispel Magic in a lot of adventures until he can't afford his largeness anymore... its stupid....theres always ways to bend the rules in DnD...and theres always been plenty of room for munchkins... you are the DM remember....and if a character is doing that much damage at that level, something is clearly wrong and needs to be fixed... permanency enlarged.....make your own errata and make it so that cant be permanized....if the player complains...start rolling all encouinters with complete randomness (during their trek in the woods, the PCs encounter Mephistopheles, Archdevil of the 8th layer of hell) or even better....make your own PCs that are munchkins... I know this is a rambling post...but when you play 3.0, and allow such weird characters...things happen
BlackSmith 07-06-04, 01:01 PM	Originally posted by Azzedar permanency enlarged.....make your own errata and make it so that cant be permanized....if the player complains...start rolling all encouinters with complete randomness (during their trek in the woods, the PCs encounter Mephistopheles, Archdevil of the 8th layer of hell) or even better....make your own PCs that are munchkins... well...... no.... need....... for... own... errata... just... keep... dropping... couple... of... dispell... magics... now... and... then. they... ggt... the... point... in... some... point... while... using... their... exp... for... beeing... big... as... the... mage... is... couple... levels... head... of... them. also... remeber... that... bigger... things...need... more... food.
Thraxious 07-06-04, 01:35 PM	Ok, Blacksmith making fun of someone else's english? Shouldn't you at least be a native speaker of a language before you do that? Bah, I am probably just annoyed because I do that same "...." thing from time to time. It is typing what you think, instead of breaking it down into proper format. Sort of a stream of thought approach. I use it all the time when I am chatting online and typing as I think. Maybe he honestly misunderstood what he meant due to some language barrier? If so, then I hope he gets it now. If not, then stop being a jerk for no good reason.... other then natural proficiency.
BlackFiend 07-06-04, 01:37 PM	Yeah...the bugbear is sunder-bait. Tap the heck out of his weapon and then drop some will saves on him. Make him dance for his breakfast the next day over a bed of coals. This world needs more evil DMs to keep stuff like this from dominating the gaming table. Any fighter type that sees him cutting down his allies will immediately seek to destroy his weapons and him. An intelligence of 2 will tell a creature to destroy the pointy thing sticking me and my friends. Sunder...Sunder...Sunder...
pickles78RSA 07-06-04, 03:39 PM	as the party is 16th level and they do have above average equipment...i will throw a nightwalker at them... very nasty creatures and they like to kill weapons! and if that dosen't work then i will just kill him somehow... he did draw from the deck of manythings at the end of last session and drew the an outsider wants to kill you card and so i could use that...obviously i don;t want to just kill him because he bought an axe but i as the DM will use my exprience and deal with him in the correct way but one basis of this huge damage is his large size. When he was medium he had a great axe...then he was enlarged with permenancy, does that make the weapon permenantly large or only if he holds it? if he drops it and picks it up again is it still large? going on from this 1d12 up one step is 3d6?? that makes no sence 1-12 to 3-18!!!!! at best it should have been 2d8!!(2-16) oh well! tom
Egres 07-06-04, 04:10 PM	From the SRD: All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size Since Permanency modifies only the spell duration,IMHO the spell description shown above still works.
Seeker95 07-06-04, 06:24 PM	Originally posted by Egres From the SRD: Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size Since Permanency modifies only the spell duration,IMHO the spell description shown above still works. Yup. Until he tries to go to bed, takes off his armor and lays down his weapon.
Egres 07-06-04, 06:26 PM	Yup. Until he tries to go to bed, takes off his armor and lays down his weapon. :rofl:
pickles78RSA 07-07-04, 09:04 AM	i will definatly remember that about his weapons and armour... any thoughts on the damage increaces bit? any also in the good old days of 1st edition we used to play that if you were wearing metal armour then you basically could not move silently!! now you just wear breastplae and have like a -4 to move silently...does that really represent realistic negative for wearing metal armour...i know i have worn chainmail before and it is a ***** to keep quite even standing still... tom
aktion 07-07-04, 02:40 PM	Let me clear up this BugBear! a) As for the skill point problem, the PrC he is trying to take requires: As a 13th lvl char, his max ranks is 16. The character in question had 7 levels in cleric and 5 in barbarian. Even without any int modifier, he has 12 from cleric and 32 from barbarian (he took barbarian first!) Along with the 4 ranks in Move Silently he gets as a racial bonus, that leaves him with plenty! Just to educate you all, he also has a cloak and boots of Elvenkind (which for triple the price, we made +10). Along with that, his armor is silent and shadowed, so his modifier on Move silently is 34 and his modifier for hide is 30. If that doesn't qualify for Assasin, what the h**l will? And yes, he does still have skill points to put towards Disguise! b) Then y'all tried to tear apart the fact that the Monkey Grip and Improved Crit. cant stack! Well, color me dumb, but I cant find anything that says I cant do that! Anyways, in the DnD group we play in, its never been a problem and we've always allowed it! Surely its the same as saying that a character can't take Improved Weapon Focus and Improved Critical on the same weapon? It seems perfectly fine, it just means that the character focuses immensely on one weapon. He is using 2 feats on one particular weapon, so it seems perfectly balamced to me! c) Third problem I can see is the fact that we screwed up a bit on the Level Adjustment thing! I admit that is true, but we all make mistakes! Our Dm ( or actually tom) told me that I could either lose my class levels or lose my racial HD levels. Believe it or not, I actually wanted to lose the class levels because I would then avoid the XP penalties. However, I was swayed into losing the racial stuff and therefore also lost my extra feats and skill points and HP and... We stuffed up, but we corrected it! d) Someone complained about why a BugBear would take assassin levels but the way I had been playing the character certainly allowed for it to be like that. I spent the 26k + on shadowing and silenting my armor, bought dusts of dissappearance and generally like to hit my opponents flat footed! Why not !?! e) How do I use the weapons so effectively? Well, as a ECL 16 char I had 6 feats! 1) Monkey grip - Great axe 2) Improved crit. - Great axe Then I lost my Racial feats so: 3) Two weapon fighting 4) Improved two weapon fighting Then I ditched my light melee weapon and got: 5) Monkey grip - Scythe 6) Improved crit. - Scythe What is wrong with that? I take penalties with Two weapon fighting (-2/-2) and with Monkey Grip, but with barbarian rage, and a +6 Belt of Giant Strength and racial +4 on str. and an Ioun stone (which we allow as a miscellaneous bonus that stacks) and some other stuff, that brings my AB to around 25/20/25 for the Great Axe and 23/18 for the scythe. I dont see why this should be shunned upon. The dungeon was (to be completely honest) quite overpowered and although there were ability score losses, the BugBear came out the better! The fact is that he is very powerful, because he was allowed to get overpowered, but he has been 'built up' very well and he DEFINITELY DOESN'T INFRINGE ON RULES! f) Now the last problem was this whole thing about being large! One of you said that only a stupid desperate PC would want to be large! Hello, can you not see that this character is not desperate (although I admit that he is a BugBear and therefore wuite stupid!). He had a permanency Enlarge Person cast on himself which I agree with you, as did the rest of our group, that wears off for my armour when I take it off! Why cant I just go out and buy it again for a large character? An average 16lvl character has 260 000gp and we are definitely more than an average party! After the recent dungeon, I had over 95k to spend and along with selling some of my magical items I'd have plenty! Playing my character as I have been for the entire game, I would of let the BugBear take it off and then realise that it doesn't fit again. If it had come to that, he would of then gone through the rest of the dungeon with weapons that feel 'small-diminutive' to him (remembering he has monkey grip) and he would have most probably died! g) As for the damage dealt, heres how it works: +1 Keen, Shocking, Flaming, Vicious Great Axe Where we play, we let the 3.ed rules slide so Keen and Improved Crit stack! Therefore, the weapon line looks like this (without his sneak attack ablility: 25/20/15 (that'll hit an average creature against a 16th lvl party once or twice) and then 23/18 (that'll probably only hit once!) The axe deals 3d6 base + 2d6 vicious + 2d6 elemental + 16 str... On a critical hit (17-20/X3) it deals 9d6 base + 2d6 vicious + 2d6 elem. + 48 str. I agree "THATZ INSANE"!! It might slide for a 18-19th level character but for the BugBear itz mad! Then me, (the player) could gleefully say, "Ok, so that's 13d6 +48 on my first attack and 7d6 +16 from my second and the third misses and there are still two from my off-hand weapon!" I agree it's a DM's nightmare so then it obviously leaves open two options: Sunder it and be gone with the stupid Weapon, although for another 26k I'll just repair it! OR Kill the BugBear outright! His sword is the equivalent of a red target on his chest saying shoot me! Kill him, he IS the biggest threat in the party so kill him first! Its obvious he has got out of hand so you gotta do what you gotta do! Because of the problems this character has caused (by merely using the rules to my advantage) I've decided to retire him, however the Monster Manual says that for every adult the is a kid. (or something to that effect)... So the BugBear's gonna have a kid with a dragon-like prostitute and make a Half BugBear Dragon and I'll take the Level adjustment and become a Psion cross Soulknife! Thaz playing the BugBear like a rogue (like its intended to be) and also staying neutrally powerful, by using Psionics! I'm not sure why everyone hates BugBears soooo much, but you all gotta grow up and realise that this character isn't illeagal or meta-gamed or played by a screwed up player! Its just created to be powerful... May Clemlock rest in peace after all of you have got your pound of flesh! Cheers Ben
aktion 07-07-04, 03:09 PM	After re-reading the thread I would also like to comment that "Sir. Blacksmith, king of the flippin flies," is totally wrong and shouldn't be making alligations about stuff he hasn't got a clue about. The whole point about these forums is to make constructive criticism about ideas that need tweaking or for experienced players to provide help for more in-experienced players. The way you're going Blacksmith, is aiming straight towards the moderators: BlackSmith: LOL for whole this bugbear! He's breaking so many rules, you cant say he's still playing DnD What about that fits into the above two catorgories? If you cant play nice don't play at all! \ ben
masterofmayhem 07-07-04, 03:17 PM	Originally posted by aktion Along with the 4 ranks in Move Silently he gets as a racial bonus, that leaves him with plenty! Just to educate you all, he also has a cloak and boots of Elvenkind (which for triple the price, we made +10). Along with that, his armor is silent and shadowed, so his modifier on Move silently is 34 and his modifier for hide is 30. If that doesn't qualify for Assasin, what the h**l will? You need a certain amount of ranks to qualify for a PrC, not a good enough modifier. You could have +60 to hide, and not qualify for the assassin PrC if you don't have anough ranks in hide and move silently. I belive that is what people were talking about earlier.
aktion 07-07-04, 03:26 PM	The BugBear gets +/- 44 ranks to spend! I created the character to work around the favoured class (rogue) by taking hide and move silently as my prime skills, after I maxed them out, I took a few in sense motive, bluff and disguise. Obviously enough of them! I thought that was sort of obvious enough. With what I said, I couldn't get +34 with less than 12 ranks! nuff said! Ben
masterofmayhem 07-07-04, 03:36 PM	I’m afraid you misunderstand, friend. The bugbear, as a level 16 character, currently has 7 levels of cleric, 5 levels of barbarian, and 3 levels of assassin. To qualify to become an assassin, you need a total of 8 ranks in hide, and 8 in move silently. You became an assassin after you had 7 levels of cleric and 5 levels of barbarian, with a total character level of 12. Your max number of ranks for a given skill is 15 (total class levels+3), however, hide and move silently or cross class for both cleric and barbarian, so your max cross-class is a mere 7.5, not quite good enough to qualify for assassin (regardless of your modifier in hide and move silently, you need a number of ranks). You would have needed to take another level in either of your classes (I would suggest barbarian, so you don’t have to deal with XP penalties) in order to qualify for the assassin PrC. So the problem was not your total number of skill points, just that you could not use those skill points to buy the requisite number of ranks in the given skills. To quote some previous posters: Originally posted by Dire Celestial Bonobo Cleric 7/Barb 5 is a 12th-level character, meaning he has max ranks of 15 in class skills, and 7 in cross-class skills. An Assassin requires Hide and MS of 8 ranks to join, meaning a Cleric/Barb could not take Assassin until at least 14th level. Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade Dire Celestial Bonobo is correct regarding cross class skills. You use the total character levels, NOT individual class skills, to determine maximum cross class skill ranks. EDIT: Originally posted by aktion Along with the 4 ranks in Move Silently he gets as a racial bonus, that leaves him with plenty! Also, those are not ranks, they go under the "miscellaneous" category.
aktion 07-07-04, 03:46 PM	Go to pg 29 of the Monster Manual in the second column lines 23-24 and look at the skills stated. Move Silently and Hide are BugBear class skills...
Beamup 07-07-04, 03:49 PM	If you don't have the levels, you don't have the skills. Period. The character is decidedly illegal. Also, complaining that not getting extra goodies that let you do illegal things "loses your entire character idea" is nonsensical. That character can easily be constructed in an entirely legal manner. But you didn't do that, and in fact didn't come terribly close.
aktion 07-07-04, 03:51 PM	I'm missing it by half a rank, you can hardly say that is 'decidedly illegal', if I were honestly DMing a game like that I would let it slide. The bugbear would be 1/2 a skill point off for 1 level! Thats hardly what I call decidedly illegal.
masterofmayhem 07-07-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by aktion Go to pg 29 of the Monster Manual in the second column lines 23-24 and look at the skills stated. Move Silently and Hide are BugBear class skills... You said you took out your bugbear HD, so you don't get any of the benefits from them (they are gone, after all). Originally posted by aktion It's only missing it by half a level! \ Doesn't matter. Unless the DM says it's OK, and judging by the creation of this thread, I would say he doesn't think it is.
aktion 07-07-04, 04:02 PM	This thread was created by a DM who had a problem with my magical weapon, in my damage estimates, I didn't even include any sneak attack damage. The point is that the DM wants a way to beat my weapon, not tear my character apart. Its not the worlds most divine sin to let a character take a class when he is missing the prerequisites by half a skill point. Thats really ridiculous... I reckon my DM would let it slide and besides, does it really make such a difference to my character. It just decreases my maximum damage from 1010 to 1004. WOW.
masterofmayhem 07-07-04, 04:11 PM	If the replies to the beginning post of this thread are no big deal and will not harm your character in the slightest, then why were you so upset and peeved when you posted your first reply here? From the tone of your message, you seemed like you were in a big hurry to post it so that you could prove everyone wrong, and tell them that they have no right to give your DM multiple ways to kill off your character. Anyway, my point was that the DM apparently has a problem with your character, otherwise he would not have made this thread. Again, that's only what it seems to me, now I could be wrong, and your DM may love your character. He may love that your character concept makes perfect sense, and that you RP him perfectly during every session. However, if he doesn't have a problem, then why did he post it here? pickles78RSA: I've played in the type of campaign you seem to be playing in, and I'll tell you right now, the only way you're going to challenge the PCs is to make your own, equally min/maxxed NPC's to fight the PCs. When one of the PCs can take out a Tarrasque in a single turn, you're obviously either too high a level, or are bending the rules too much to help out the PCs. Anyway, just MHO.
Beamup 07-07-04, 04:20 PM	There's also the fact that your attack bonus is quite low for ECL 16. BAB +12 -4 for TWF, no light weapon -2 for Monkey Grip -1 for Large +1 for enhancement = +6+Str I'll assume you started with an 18 Str. +4 from bugbear. Rage gives +4. Belt of Giant Strength +6. Level up bonus +3, for a total of 35 Str, you have a +12 bonus. So your real attack routine is +18/+13/+8 +18/+13 And maybe another +2 from Pale Green Ioun Stone and Luckstone. Not very good for your level. There's no way you're anywhere close to the +25 you claim.
masterofmayhem 07-07-04, 04:22 PM	Along with an additional +2 strength from an Ioun Stone (they house ruled that it stacks with enhancement bonuses).
Beamup 07-07-04, 04:26 PM	Originally posted by masterofmayhem Along with an additional +2 strength from an Ioun Stone (they house ruled that it stacks with enhancement bonuses). I'd assumed that the ioun stone referred to was the Pale Green. If not, then the numbers come out the same anyway - either gives a +1.
masterofmayhem 07-07-04, 04:34 PM	Um. . . I think he has both. And most likely any item he wants. When you're extremely powerful, the DM has no choice but to throw extremely powerful stuff at you, which nets you more treasure than normal. Trust me. I know :rolleyes: .
pickles78RSA 07-07-04, 05:35 PM	ok i will attempt a reply but this may be long and there may be lots of "..." ben calm down...we are not out to kill your bugbear just his axe!!! first off i made this tread to address the weapon...i don't like new weapons that deal 45d6 damage...with the flaming, frost, vicious etc!!!! i remember the good old days of 1st and 2nd ed where we had good old +3 weapons... moving on to the second point...he is large...nothing wrong with that and my other point was to argue that a d12 goes up to 3d6...it should be 2d6 or at best 2d8... ben you need to think about your attack bonus i agree it seems too high... BAB +13, +12 str, +1 weapon, -1 size, -4 TWF, -2 monkeygrip that makes +19 so you need to explain that... as far as his skills go...i made his character with him not knowing that the 3 racial HD counted for the LA...so he had the required skills when he leveled up in assassin...than i realized the errors of my ways and corrected this by asking him to loose 3 levels...either his Racial HD or 3 class levels... he chose the Racial HD so he now has no levels in monstrous humanoid...but he still retains that subtype...so he retains the skill familiarity...he has class skills in move silently and the others...i played that they added to his current list of class skills...he just had no racial skill points to spend in them...so as far as i am concerned as the DM he fits the requirements for the PRC he is not all that powerful...ben your elemental damage is not multiplied on a critical hit and as others have stated you will not get many attacks against mobile targets...rory just threw golems at you...they just sit there and get hit! you cannot be a half dragon just like that i am afraid say...you are welcome to take levels in the Dragon diciple PRC...leading you to the template at Lvl 10 of that class...but you cannot pick it up like that right now... ben just be calm we are not here to butcher your bugbear and i do not have that much of a problem with it...Rory (our last DM...he ended up giving out +10 weapons...i kept them and as i was playing a Paladin i gave them to charity!!!! i think i gave 200,000gp away last time we played...but that was a once off...)too much treasure last time and when i DM next time there will be a lot less treasure than when we started the game...trust me... we will finninsh with a big bang...don't you worry before i leave the county i will have decimated all of your characters... tom
Beamup 07-07-04, 06:39 PM	Well, if your problem is how much the elemental enhancements do, they really aren't that much better than straight +1s. Consider the following intangible benefits of plusses: - Don't require a standard action to activate them. This can be a biggie - all the elemental damage dice can be activated with one action, but it takes an action! - Provide resistance to sundering. - Most DMs I know of rule that the elemental enhancements are not stealthy sorts of things... flaming weapons emit light, etc. Now, let's look at how much the damage differs by. I'll be neglecting crits in this discussion, as well as hit-on-2 and miss-on-19 situations. Let's suppose that, in 20 attacks, you get H hits each doing an average of D damage before the enhancement, and calculate the damage increase over those 20 attacks for each enhancement. The elemental damage die will do 3.5*H damage. A +1 increases damage per hit AND results in one more hit, so H + (D+1) extra. Therefore, the difference (elemental - plus) is 2.5H - D - 1 Prior to elemental enhancements, the axe would be doing 3d6+15 per hit, so D is 25.5 and we get 2.5H - 26.5 Now, if we assume that half of all attacks hit, H would be 10 and the result becomes -1.5, indicating that the plus does more damage... 0.075 damage per attack, in fact. If we boost H up to 15, we would get 11... 0.55 damage per attack difference. (Note that the average damage per attack would be 21.75, this is an increase of 2.5%.) So we see that, under favorable assumptions for the elemental damage (lots of hits despite low attack bonus, keep in mind iterative attacks will be even lower!), they do somewhat better - by an amount that's pretty much negligible compared to the damage already being done. Conversely, additional plusses do better under what I would consider to be more realistic assumptions, though the difference is again pretty negligible - and they have those intangible benefits. Now, let's look at the simplifying assumptions I made. Adding crits to the consideration will favor plusses, since elemental dice are unaffected by crits and plusses both confirm more crits and do more damage on crits. Hit-on-2 and miss-on-19 situations favor elemental dice, since the plusses won't get their increased hit chance, but such situations are relatively rare. AC would have to be below 22 or above 28, 17 and 33 if you want more than one iterative attack to be affected - a quick perusal of CRs near 16 reveals that most have ACs around 25. Of course, the fact that elemental enhancements do energy damage cannot be ignored. This is an advantage on their side, though it doesn't affect that many situations. To sum up - the elemental damage dice are hardly that big a deal. You're overestimating their impact.
Hypersmurf 07-07-04, 06:47 PM	Originally posted by Beamup - Most DMs I know of rule that the elemental enhancements are not stealthy sorts of things... flaming weapons emit light, etc. "I activate my Screaming Shortsword of Subtlety, and sneak up behind him, stealthily." -Hyp.
masterofmayhem 07-07-04, 08:08 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf "I activate my Screaming Shortsword of Subtlety, and sneak up behind him, stealthily." "What do you mean he noticed me?? My move silently is +30!!" :rolleyes:
Thraxious 07-08-04, 12:41 AM	Along with the 4 ranks in Move Silently he gets as a racial bonus, that leaves him with plenty! Just to educate you all, he also has a cloak and boots of Elvenkind (which for triple the price, we made +10). Along with that, his armor is silent and shadowed, so his modifier on Move silently is 34 and his modifier for hide is 30. If that doesn't qualify for Assasin, what the h**l will? Ok, a possible problem with this is the fact that boots/cloak of elvenkind do not stack with the silent and shadowed armour. They are bonuses of the same kind and therefore do not stack. You may want to look over the characters in the game for things like that, if one player has done it others might have as well.
aktion 07-08-04, 02:55 AM	Ok, I checked my actual char sheet and would like to revise something... a) The AB that was stated was infact incorrect. I had it written down as 23/18.13. When I said in my earlier reply, that I had some other stuff adding to my strength, I meant a +4 tome fo str. Although, alas, I must admit, I am still wrong because I overlooked the penalty for TWF. Just because it is monkey-gripped, it is still essentially a two-handed melee weapon. That means that even with the feat, it still counts as a -4 penalty. That means that the actual AB for the main weapon is 21/16/11. Which should be enough to hit most opponent's flat-footed AC. Sorry about that; you guys were actually right, but I didn't say that the character had read the tomes. b) Secondly, I would say that the Racial skills are actually related to the BugBear's race and not the humanoid levels. It is definitely not in the rules, but it would seem that the BugBear's favoured class is rogue and therefore the skills are actually the BugBear's. Although on this, I can't stand on more than one foot because it isn't actually in the rules. I think we're probably done with this BugBear. So far we've spent three pages of posts fighting about the skill points and the AB. Both of those problems have been discussed and as far as I'm concerned, the real point was that the BugBear's weapon was overpwered. But then again, we also discussed the ways to destroy it and that seemed easy enough as it was. The point was not to pull my character to bits, it was to discuss his weapon. Just leave it alone now. I think the bugbear problem is done with! Cheers Ben
Nick Soapdish 07-08-04, 05:52 AM	Originally posted by aktion b) Secondly, I would say that the Racial skills are actually related to the BugBear's race and not the humanoid levels. It is definitely not in the rules, but it would seem that the BugBear's favoured class is rogue and therefore the skills are actually the BugBear's. Although on this, I can't stand on more than one foot because it isn't actually in the rules. I think we're probably done with this BugBear. So far we've spent three pages of posts fighting about the skill points and the AB. Both of those problems have been discussed and as far as I'm concerned, the real point was that the BugBear's weapon was overpwered. But then again, we also discussed the ways to destroy it and that seemed easy enough as it was. The point was not to pull my character to bits, it was to discuss his weapon. Just leave it alone now. I think the bugbear problem is done with! Ignoring your last sentence ... after all, it's not fair to just concede the last word to you ;) ... those skills would be tied to the racial HD. They're listed under building the bugbear as a character and its racial levels. Would you argue that Move Silently would be a class skill for a halfling single classed wizard. After all, a halfling's favored class is rogue and he also gets a racial bonus to Move Silently.
pickles78RSA 07-08-04, 08:10 AM	to be fair the bugbears class skills would then only have (with the 3 racial HD) a maximum of 6 ranks...but i deemed that bugbears did not need the levels to make them have those class skills because they would be as a race naturally sneaky!!! All that said i can see where you are coming from...they are class skills for the levels in monstrous humanoid...not for being a bugbear...but those 2 are related!!! so i ruled that they would stay... and as far as the halfling wizard goes...the halfling gets a bonus...it dosent say as per the bugbears that the skills are considered class skills for that race...so nick your example is flawed! tom
Beamup 07-08-04, 11:28 AM	There is no such thing as class skills for a race, only class skills for a level. Granting the Monstrous Humanoid class skills as class skills without levels in it is identical to granting somebody all the Rogue class skill list as class skills without any levels of Rogue.
pickles78RSA 07-08-04, 11:38 AM	no its not...a bugbear is naturally stealthy...so is say a goblin...an ogre is not naturally stealthy...it makes more sence to have certain class skills for races...does a bugbear get formal training in hiding and moving silently?!?!?! no he picks it up as he goes along therefore he has class skills in stealth just for being naturally stealthy...the halfling on the other hand has no formal training but can hide well because he is small and move silently because he can be light on his feet... what i am doing is not handing out class skills willy nilly...the ogre should have intimidate and other such skills naturally because he is a big fat ugly scary ogre...he needs no levels in monstrous humanoid to become scary... likewise rogues have formal training to avoid being seen and to tiptoe around...the bugbear does this automatically... tom
Beamup 07-08-04, 11:40 AM	A bugbear's natural stealthiness is reflected in the racial bonus. You are just giving out class skills willy-nilly when the rules are absolutely 100% specific that the character does not get them. Which is something that you have the power to do, but you need to recognize that it is a house rule, NOT justified at all by the written rules.
pickles78RSA 07-08-04, 01:00 PM	agreed but this is a house rule based on logic...it makes more sence than saying that juvinile bugbears that have no levels in monstrous humanoid are not very stealthy... it just makes more realistic sence to me... and i am not saying that i disagree with the skills system...i love it...far more than the old non-weapon proficiencies and the Thief skills of old... tom
Beamup 07-08-04, 01:30 PM	Originally posted by pickles78RSA agreed but this is a house rule based on logic...it makes more sence than saying that juvinile bugbears that have no levels in monstrous humanoid are not very stealthy... They're still stealthy - they have the racial bonus. They just don't have ranks. Juveniles generally don't have ranks in anything, so class skills are irrelevant to them.
BlackSmith 07-08-04, 05:11 PM	Originally posted by aktion After re-reading the thread I would also like to comment that "Sir. Blacksmith, king of the flippin flies," is totally wrong and shouldn't be making alligations about stuff he hasn't got a clue about. What about that fits into the above two catorgories? If you cant play nice don't play at all! first WotC stated "3rd edition is thing of the past" so if you think realy twisted 3rd things are not supported in these formus. secondly, the bugbear IS breaking so many rules, you can't define in what game it belongs. youself stated that it use 3rd edition rules partly and 3,5 in some parts. so in fact it does not use any rules as it use any rule it sees fit to its own purpose. 3rd. skills modifies are NOT counted for prequisetes to get in class. only ranks and with those levels he CAN'T cualify to the assasin class. all PrC prequisetes say RANKS, NOT modifier. here is a little quote from SRD to you. SKILLS SUMMARY If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get 1/2 rank per skill point. Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3. Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down). Using Skills: To make a skill check, roll: 1d20 + skill modifier (Skill modifier = skill rank + ability modifier + miscellaneous modifiers) This roll works just like an attack roll or a saving throw— the higher the roll, the better. Either you’re trying to match or exceed a certain Difficulty Class (DC), or you’re trying to beat another character’s check result. Skill Ranks: A character’s number of ranks in a skill is based on how many skill points a character has invested in a skill. Many skills can be used even if the character has no ranks in them; doing this is called making an untrained skill check. Ability Modifier: The ability modifier used in a skill check is the modifier for the skill’s key ability (the ability associated with the skill’s use). The key ability of each skill is noted in its description. Miscellaneous Modifiers: Miscellaneous modifiers include racial bonuses, armor check penalties, and bonuses provided by feats, among others. 4th. improv crit and keen does not stack in 3,5 SRD IMPROVED CRITICAL [GENERAL] Choose one type of weapon. Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8. Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled. Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon. (yes you said you use 3rd edit but look below). even if they would stack (like in 3rd ed), scythe would NOT have thread from 17-20. keen for scyhte makes it 19-20. imp crit on that makes it 18-20. in DnD douples douple is not quantriple. it is triple. SRD MULTIPLYING Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3). When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice). 5th if a 16th lvl party has LOT more than guidlines give, then they are not quite playing along the rules as their party is more powerfull than the CR are planned for. thus your DM should cast HARDER opponents than 16th lvl party should get against them. 6th monkey grip does stack with imp crit, but you cant have those feats as your monster side gives different feats for start. 7th you both admited that you didnt note the monster HD/LA at all thus only that part only makes the creature out of the core rules. 8th i have been correcting and advaicing newbies for DnD at boards only almost 2 years. i dare to say they have learned to play the game by the rules by listening older posters. so there is like 7 (8) reasons that make it out of DnD rules. making one or two GAME MECHANICS modifications goes for house rules category but... this is just too much of rule breaking to keep the character at playable with rest of the DnD characters/ECL's. sorry. lastly... if i would like to violate CoC i would say to you "STFU, get home and read/study the DnD RULES". good thing that i dont do such things.
Nick Soapdish 07-08-04, 06:04 PM	Originally posted by pickles78RSA and as far as the halfling wizard goes...the halfling gets a bonus...it dosent say as per the bugbears that the skills are considered class skills for that race...so nick your example is flawed! You may not have noticed, but halflings don't have racial HD. They just start with whatever their class HD is. Racial skills are only described for those races that actually have racial HD to illustrate where those skill points from the racial HD can be spent. So are you trying to say that halflings or goblins aren't naturally sneaky? By giving the bugbear his racial mods and other abilities without having to take the racial HD, you're giving him a huge boost. The hobgoblin is also a LA+1, but only gets a +2 to Dex and Con. OTOH, he doesn't have to burn any suboptimal racial HD. Having the racial HD is a tradeoff for the natural armor and all the bonuses to stats. Yeah, the racial skills are related to the racial HD. But you tossed out the one. Aren't they still related? And by giving him the racial skills for racial levels that he's not taking is further boosting the monster class. Obviously, you're free to do whatever you want. But when you do so (and coupled with the other house rules), you shouldn't be so surprised that he's doing a staggering amount of damage. As an aside, I believe that since they were class skills for his racial HD, he wouldn't be subject to the normal max on cross-class skills. So he could be putting two points in with each level of cleric or barbarian to get a rank of Move Silently or Hide. So it is possible to be an assassin at that level, but he's got 3 too many levels of cleric and/or barbarian.
Beamup 07-08-04, 06:09 PM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish As an aside, I believe that since they were class skills for his racial HD, he wouldn't be subject to the normal max on cross-class skills. So he could be putting two points in with each level of cleric or barbarian to get a rank of Move Silently or Hide. So it is possible to be an assassin at that level, but he's got 3 too many levels of cleric and/or barbarian. Correct - once they are class skills for any of your hit dice (whether those HD are racial or class levels) they are always class skills for purposes of maximum ranks. (But not for cost per rank.)
Mockingbird 07-08-04, 06:58 PM	<<this is a house rule based on logic>> Uh, might want to also try basing your house rules on play balance as well. It seems that most of all the pc's and items brokenness you're experiencing is self inflicted. Stick with the rules as laid out in the core books, and make sure you're players all are too. Just a thought. Either way, Good gaming!
Tehril 07-08-04, 07:58 PM	even if they would stack (like in 3rd ed), scythe would NOT have thread from 17-20. keen for scyhte makes it 19-20. imp crit on that makes it 18-20. in DnD douples douple is not quantriple. it is triple. Actually BS, Keen and Improved Crit double the threat range. There is no WOTC style muliplication involved. If you scyth normally has a 19-20 threat range, then it has a 2 point threat range.... 19 and 20. If you make it keen or take Imp. Crit. with it, the threat range numbers double... making it 17,18,19,20. There are other (non core) feats which increase threat range by 1 etc... the feats are quite specific in stating what they do. Other than that, your arguement is sound. This bugbear should really pick 1 edition and play it... taking the best of both worlds for 'it' just ends up creating a monstrous thing that is impossible by playing either core version alone.
Hypersmurf 07-08-04, 08:02 PM	Originally posted by Tehril Actually BS, Keen and Improved Crit double the threat range. There is no WOTC style muliplication involved. If you scyth normally has a 19-20 threat range, then it has a 2 point threat range.... 19 and 20. You've missed the point. The scythe normally has a threat range of 20 - one point. With stacking of Keen and Improved Crit (3E rules), it is doubled, then doubled again - which gives a 3 point threat range, 18-20. -Hyp.
Tehril 07-08-04, 08:11 PM	whoops... quite so. Misread the post, I suppose. There is an entry under Improved Crit in the 3.0 handbooks that describes this situation. The example is a longsword...and the effect of 2 doublings is a triple :| LS 2 point threat IC LS 4 point threat IC+Keen LS 6 point threat Yup. So indeed, the scythe would have a threat of 18-20. Haven't read the old 3.0 rules in a while :P
pickles78RSA 07-09-04, 08:53 AM	we are playing 3.5 edition...but there are some things i don;t agree with...for 1 is the damage reduction and some of the feats and restrictions that WOTC put on certain spells etc...i play 3.5 but with one or two rules from the good old days of 3rd ed... the party is powerful yes but it is not overpowered!!! i throw CR 16 creatures at them and they have to use up resources to beat it...in fact most of the time they struggle...last Finale i ran they were 14th level and they were fighting a 14th level barbarian and a 16th level cleric with a few minions...EL like 15.5 i think so they had a hard time...they managed to win the encounter but i killed one of the party and put another on -9 but he bloody stabalized and all the others were hurt quite badly in the process!!!! so don't talk to me about game balance and keeping to the core rules becuase it is sometimes boring fighting the same kind of things...i want to challenge my PC's and they me...we all have fun and the whole point of this thread was not to rip apart the bugbear but to simply debate wheather having 5 abilities on an axe that give it +6d6 damage per hit is fair and viable... tom
q'afuu 07-09-04, 09:58 AM	Originally posted by pickles78RSA ... last Finale i ran they were 14th level and they were fighting a 14th level barbarian and a 16th level cleric with a few minions...EL like 15.5 i think so they had a hard time... I'm sure they had. a 14th level Barb + 16th level Cleric (without minions), supposing 14/16 are the resp. CRs and there are no extra monster levels involved, is an EL of 17. Not exactly murderous, but definitely challenging.
Someone 07-09-04, 02:40 PM	Originally posted by pickles78RSA ...the whole point of this thread was not to rip apart the bugbear but to simply debate wheather having 5 abilities on an axe that give it +6d6 damage per hit is fair and viable...Viable- yes, fair... well, yes if you don't mind your players pick and choosing/ making weapons with exact powers. That said, there are things that would scoff at such a weapon. Outsiders, for example. Most of them have resistance or immunity to at least 3 of the weapons elemental dice (fire, cold, electric, acid? was it?) Not to mention DR, which works against vicious damage. Lastly, I'm getting confused about the monkeygrip/ TWF/ large character/ increased size weapon thing. This guy is one-handing a weapon meant for a huge creature? Normally that would be an iappropriate (-2 to hit) 2-hand weapon for a large creature, but monkeygrip allows it to be an "inappropriate" 1-hand, right? My point is that the weapon isn't an increased size greataxe- its a doubly increased battleaxe. Monkeygrip doesn't let you 1-hand a 2-hand weapon thats appropriate for your size. Its more like "Improved inappropriate weapon".
Nick Soapdish 07-09-04, 03:10 PM	Originally posted by pickles78RSA so don't talk to me about game balance and keeping to the core rules becuase it is sometimes boring fighting the same kind of things...i want to challenge my PC's and they me...we all have fun and the whole point of this thread was not to rip apart the bugbear but to simply debate wheather having 5 abilities on an axe that give it +6d6 damage per hit is fair and viable... Sorry, your initial post seemed to be complaining about the amount of damage that the character was creating when specifying the monkey grip feats and the Permanent Enlarge Person (and the bonus damage). If you're just worried about the axe, leave out the details that you aren't worried about and we won't get as easily sidetracked. I'm only seeing +4d6 dice also - +2d6 for vicious, +1 for fire, and +1 for electricity.
pickles78RSA 07-09-04, 05:31 PM	yes the 4d6 is for this example but it could easily be more... sorry if i sidetracked everyone...but this has been a really fun thread to watch and participate in... the Barbarian 14 and Cleric 16 was about 15.5 because of their items and the fact that 1 CR 14 PC cannot easily take on a PC party of 6 14th level characters...in reality surely it should be 6 CR 14's = EL 14...after all that is what the PC's are... i don't actually remember how the EL's work so remind me...I am not saying that 6 14th level PC's = EL 14 not untill i read the books again... what would be the ECL for that ammount of creatures at that CR? tom
masterofmayhem 07-09-04, 06:00 PM	A CR 14 and a CR 16 are an encounter level of 17.2, according to this encounter calculator (http://arcady0.topcities.com/Encounter_Calculator.html). The calculator also says that it is a "very difficult" encounter, but that does not factor in their advanced equipment for their level. For example, a party of 18th level characters I was in killed several great wyrms once because of items that we should not have had. A duelist with 60 AC also helps :rolleyes:.
pickles78RSA 07-10-04, 09:11 AM	thats a quality page...thanks but surley it says in the DM's Guide that a reasonable fight for a party of say ECL 14 is a CR 14 creature? on this that dosent work?!?!?
pickles78RSA 07-10-04, 09:13 AM	ok so thats based on 4 PC's not 6...it ups the PC ECL if there are more than 4!!!! sorry... tom
Someone 07-10-04, 01:06 PM	The CR of a 4 person party each of which are lvl 14 is about 19. That is- 14 (14 class levels) +1 (elite stat array) +2 (double number of creatures) +2 (double again) = 19. A six person party of the same level would be CR 20. I don't remember the page reference, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere is says that a CR = party level *should* require the expenditure of 1/4 of their resources- be it hp, spells, limited use features like barbarian rage, etc.