Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thiez 05-04-06, 04:00 PM	Level 9 Dwarven Wizard, specializing in Transmutation School. With a reasonable int score (let's say... 22), he can prepare and cast Fabricate three times per day. Our Wizard has 12 ranks in Craft(Gemcutting), a +6 int modifier, and, let's go crazy, skill focus(Craft(Gemcutting)). Because we'd hate to get less than 25 on the Craft(Gemcutting) check, we have this dear cleric buddy who is willing to cast Guidance (who said orisons were useless?) on us every time we are going to cast Fabricate. So he has this nifty 12 ranks + 6 int + 3 skill focus + 2 racial + 1 competence = +24 modifier on craft(Gemcutting) checks. Now he takes a little gem. Let's go for a 1 gp diamond. We use it as a material component for the Fabricate spell. We're going to make a 3 gp diamond (Material component has to be the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.). To make an article requiring a high degree of craftsmanship (jewelry, swords, glass, crystal, and the like) we need to make an appropriate Craft check. We can get a result anywhere in the range of 25 to 44. The DC to craft a complex or superior item is 20, according to PHB (Page 71), so our check will do. We use this 3 gp diamond as a material component for another casting, and make a 9 gp diamond. We use this 9 gp diamond as a material component for another casting, and make a 27 gp diamond. Now we go to sleep. Let's do this for a month. Our 1 gp diamond becomes a 1 gp * 3^(3*31) = 2.34544 * 10^44 gp diamond (and some more, but we'll be nice; we'll round it down). I don't know about prices in DnD, but I guess this would probably allow one to buy the whole Material Plane, and maybe some of the Elemental Planes as well. Also, if you're not really into gemcutting, you could start with a gold coin instead. We want to craft a golden coin, worth 3 gp. According to the craft-rules, we need material components equal to one third of the price of the item we're going to make, so a normal 1 gp coin will do. My point: the Fabricate spell AND the crafting rules need fixing. (I thought of this stuff because my party used the fabricate spell to create a mithral full plate for the party fighter today, which would otherwise have taken him about 3 years to craft. (155 weeks, if I remember correctly. Could have been faster had I allowed him to get 16 people to assist him, that would have taken him only around 30 weeks (if my memory serves me well, which it usually doesn't).)
Beware of Kobold 05-04-06, 04:12 PM	i think you are confused as to how the fabricate spell works. you cant keep using the same materials over and over again. Once you have created a finished product, that's it. you are done. for instance you couldn't take a bunch of trees and make them into a house, then use the house to make a mansion then use the mansion to make an even bigger mansion. The fabricate spell doesn't use the crafting rules, it only uses a crafting roll vs the normal DC to make your target item. So if you wanted to make a diamond you would start with an uncut diamond (or perhaps even a pile of carbon bearing ore if your DM was really lenient) and then you cast the spell, make your craft(gem-cutting) roll, if you beat the normal DC to cut a diamond, then you succeed. If you don't beat the DC you screwed up and made something worthless.
Thiez 05-04-06, 04:20 PM	That still sucks. So it doesn't make a difference if level 5 expert cuts a diamond, compared to a level 20 expert? How come there is this 'maximum' to the amount of perfection a diamond can get is that easy to get?
Beware of Kobold 05-04-06, 04:37 PM	someone with a higher skill modifier in craft could try to make a better item i guess, by attempting to beat a higher DC. Cutting a gem correctly requires a pretty high check to begin with however (20-30 I'd say), so someone with a low skill modifier might not even succeed on a check vs this basic DC. To make an even higher quality diamond, you might say that it would require a DC 35-40 check but there's really only so much you can do with cutting a diamond, and the spell states that the value of the final product is measured by the quality of the materials that you used to make it, so really most of the actual gold piece value of your finished product is going to depend on what you used to make it. For instance if you wanted to make a statue, and you didn't have a large enough block of stone to make one, but there was plenty of small stones around your statue will probably have lots of lines on it where the individual stones end. Or for your diamond example, the size of the uncut diamond you use will determine most of the value of the final you create (as stated before someone might try to beat a higher DC in order to create a more flawless diamond, but if you start with a small uncut diamond, its never going to be worth as much as a large one)
tarkin 05-04-06, 05:14 PM	While I generally agree with the principle behind what the other posters said, I do disagree about some of it. -------- When you take an item and use Fabricate ALL you do is save time on a Craft check. It does not save gold (cost of raw materials), nor does it allow you to do something that you could not do before. -------- There is NO rule that says you can take any gem, use the skill Gemcutting and increase it's value. The skill Gemcutting takes a raw material and turns it into a gem. The ability to take a large, flawed gem and try to make a smaller, higher quality version is not covered by the 1/3 stuff. It is something special that you have to find elsewhere. So if you took a 1gp raw, uncut diamond, you could cast a single fabricate and make a skill check. If you suceeded on the skill check, you would make a 3 gp gem. Now, let's say you had special rules (either House or otherwise) that let you take a any gem and make it smaller with less flaws. This would effectively increase the price by 33% if you beat a High DC based on the current price, or decrease it by 50% if you failed. Given that 3 gp gem, you could cast fabricate a 4gp gem, or you might end up with a gem only worth 1gp, 5 sp. ======== A better example might be blacksmith. You start out with raw iron ore and some wood worth 50 gp. You can spend a single Fabricate to create iron tools with wooden handles worth 150 gp. Or you could turn that 50gp into 150 gp worth of steel tools. Or you could spend a fabricate to turn that 50 gp into 150 gp of unworked steel. Assume you did the third choice. You could then cast a SECOND Fabricate to turn that 150 gp worth of unworked steel into 450 gp worth of steel tools. Note this would in fact take 50 gp base materails and turn it into 450 worth of steel tools, but it takes two casting and two skill checks. Yes this is allowable, mainly because blacksmith is a pretty wide skill. It makes even more sense if you throw in multiple skills. You could for example create Craft (Tanner), Craft Armorsmith. Take 1gp, 1 sp, 1 cp worth of animal hide and turn it into 3 gp 3 sp 3cp worth of leather. Then take Craft Armorsmith and turn that 3 gp, 3 sp 3cp worth of leather into 10 gp worth of leather armor. ======= There is not anything wrong with the spell Fabricate, just how you were reading it, particularly for Gem cutting.
Rerednaw 05-04-06, 07:58 PM	Actually, the most common abuse as written is to wreck economies. While not all of the above examples are valid, the one where you take raw materials (say, steel) pay 1/3 the cost, make a skill check and craft full plate armor in one round is not. 500 gp + spell = 1500 gp armor. Sell for 50% profit (250 gp over the 500 gp spent to craft. Repeat. Before you go into economies of scale, supply and demand, or the merchants/armorers guild coming after you, I'm simply citing the rules as written. Many DM's rule 0 the abuse portion out. Other do not. Play the game you want. Living Greyhawk allows the use of the spell with the caveat that at the end of the adventure (module) the item(s) crafted go poof. But then Living Greyhawk is designed to keep players poor anyway. (You can't even keep magic items you find, for example.) Cheers.
Zalabim 05-04-06, 10:34 PM	Considering that the spellcasting services table lists the value of a 5th level spell as 450 gp or more(caster level x 50 gp), I'm not seeing much abuse in your example, if any at all. At best the wizard is earning 25 gp more than if he could sell a 5th level spell service directly(assuming the standard half rate for adventurer/PC work). The wizard'll make much better profits making art pieces than adventuring goods as well. Assuming a considerable investment into an otherwise useless (though not worthless ) craft skill, a DM could allow some money to be made with it at least. Zalabim In closing, Mialee is going to earn more money by selling her spells than her other more questionable assets.
Kyuketsukiouji 05-04-06, 10:52 PM	While I generally agree with the principle behind what the other posters said, I do disagree about some of it. -------- When you take an item and use Fabricate ALL you do is save time on a Craft check. It does not save gold (cost of raw materials), nor does it allow you to do something that you could not do before. -------- There is NO rule that says you can take any gem, use the skill Gemcutting and increase it's value. The skill Gemcutting takes a raw material and turns it into a gem. The ability to take a large, flawed gem and try to make a smaller, higher quality version is not covered by the 1/3 stuff. It is something special that you have to find elsewhere. Say again? How do you think you get a cut gem, if not by making a larger, uncut gem smaller? Once you cut the raw gem, it's over. There's nothing more you can do unless you use a cut gem as a material for something else (see below for more). A better example might be blacksmith. You start out with raw iron ore and some wood worth 50 gp. You can spend a single Fabricate to create iron tools with wooden handles worth 150 gp. Or you could turn that 50gp into 150 gp worth of steel tools. Or you could spend a fabricate to turn that 50 gp into 150 gp of unworked steel. Assume you did the third choice. You could then cast a SECOND Fabricate to turn that 150 gp worth of unworked steel into 450 gp worth of steel tools. Note this would in fact take 50 gp base materails and turn it into 450 worth of steel tools, but it takes two casting and two skill checks. Not quite. Two castings, yes. Two skill checks, yes. But two different skill checks. Blacksmithing and Smelting aren't the same thing at all. I wouldn't let someone get away with this with only Blacksmithing, just as I wouldn't let someone make a jeweled ring with just Jewelry or Gemcutting. If you plan on using a craft skill to produce raw materials to use for another craft skill, the skills should be different. I would divide Smelting (the refining of metals from raw ore and from each other) and Smithing, to prevent this kind of easy money.
Error 401 05-05-06, 04:32 AM	The trick is cast Wall of Iron first, then use the iron to Fabricate masterwork equipment. No raw materials cost at all - just pure profit. Despite that, turning cows into salt is still a better money-maker, or so I hear.
Roxlimn 05-05-06, 06:40 AM	If you have the benefit of an endless market that buys everything, why bother with Fabricate? Just sell all your spells everyday for the recommended price and you should clean out entire towns and cities in short order.