Building a (controlable) Undead Army [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a (controlable) Undead Army [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zargain
10-06-06, 09:22 PM I have wondered for terms of your classic undead horde how can yopu create an army of undead that you can control? i mean animate dead gives one the ability to control about x4 your level of undead but thats not even 100 HD unles you're level 25+ A cleric also allows you top have an extra set of undead= your level but even a 20th level cleric is only going to have exactly 100HD of undead.

What else should one do to have a capable large army of undead? I already know some ideas such as controling spawn making undead (via control undead or rebuke/control as a cleric) plus having cohorts/followers that can rebuke/control or cast animate dead. Anybody have any more ideas?
Artector
10-06-06, 09:24 PM Might I suggest looking at the ECS and the Karrnathi undead. They are intelligent, but programmed. Simply make them loyal to you.

That's my suggestion.
Izzak
10-06-06, 10:43 PM I recall a Cleric spell that i think it doubles your HD limit i think its called Undead Commander or Colonel. Im not sure but if it could permenant it would be sweet. That oughta boost your troop count. I'm sorry that i do not have my books on me.
Paxar
10-06-06, 10:48 PM It's called General of Undeath (SpC Cleric 8), lasts 24 hours so make sure you cast every day or you lose control of the extra undead.
theotherdraxen
10-06-06, 11:21 PM There's also the Undead Leadership feat in Libris Mortis. Stack that with the Extra Followers feat found in Heroes of Battle, and you'll have 326 undead followers. This should boost your troop number, but probably not to the point of army-size.

Try having a cohort with Undead Leadership and Extra Followers. This'll give you 652 undead followers. Still not army size (Heroes of Battle gives you the rank of Colonel, and your cohort the rank of Major).

Stack that with the suggestions above, and you should be able to control 652+8xyour class level+8xyour cohort's class level undead. At 20th level, you'll have a total of 948 undead soldiers.

See if there is any way you can use those higher level followers to boost your undead numbers. I'm pretty sure there are some creatures that offer you extra undead. Plus, if you make your 8 6th level followers all Necropolitan Clerics, they'll be able to give you an extra 120 hit dice worth of undead.

Grand Total: 1,068. Your undead army is complete with low-ranking soldiers and high-ranking commanders, ready to rebuke the undead as necessary.

But if you really want an army, you're going to have to reach above 5000 men. Plus, I don't know how controlable this army will be. Your followers are really going to have to pick up the slack when it comes to making sure all those guys stay in line. Unless you use the programmable undead as Artector suggested, though I'm not sure how this will affect the number of Hit Dice you can command.
smrtgmp
10-06-06, 11:29 PM Play a dread necromancer (heroes of horror). Starting at 8th level, they can control a number of undead equal to (4+cha mod) x caster level. Given that they're charisma based casters, nothing will be able to compete with that.
User5127
10-07-06, 12:16 AM also: the "Death knight" template double the HD that you can control.
True necromancer is also an option.
and undead leadership from libris mortis.

Be careful with undead commander chains: if they figure out wich is in charge and kill it, you lose those undead.

at epic level i think you can also get permanent emanations and add certain effects.
Wuggadad
10-07-06, 02:27 AM Use the Command Undead spell with Extend duration.

For a 3rd level slot, a 12 level wizard could control a mindless undead for 24 days, no save.

So that is, effectively, 24 undead per 3rd level slot a wizard is willing to commit each day to controlling undead.

A few level 3 Pearls of Power and that is a lot of undead.
Lina_Inverse
10-07-06, 02:48 AM Army huh?
Lemme see.

Lvl20 cleric.
Leadership-cohort is a 17th level cleric.
Assume you have a leadership of 25. +2 for stronghold, and a mere +3 for charisma.
You have 25th level clerics and 26th level clerics.

So far 192 skeletons. Pathetic eh?

Both your cohort and the 6th level clerics qualify for leadership. Give it to them
Your cohort has a cohort, leadership.
Etc.

Now give every part of the leadership chain you can undead leadership.

Thousands of undead are yours!
Black Mantha
10-07-06, 03:11 AM And if you have the money, you can hire NPC's who can control undead. There's no limit on that, as long as you have a lot of money, or can keep the gold coming in.
Wuggadad
10-07-06, 01:15 PM A 12th level wizard, in a Desecrated area, could create zombies with up to 48 hit dice.

He could then control, no save, no SR, up to 24 of those zombies per 3rd level spell committed each day to controlling his army.

With that size zombie, the necromancer is more limited by the source of corpses than anything else.

Another way to get large armies is to allow the 'creation tag' involved in the Animate Dead spell to be transferred.

Consider a high level nasty with Fell Animate and a whole bunch of Corpse Crafter feats. They can create large numbers of undead without resort to Onyx. If casters capable of casting Animate Dead could somehow get those undead included in their controlled undead then you could have one or two really talent necromancers producing undead labor and grunt forces for a whole slew of low level casters.

So the 12th+ level caster Fell Animates an army, and then passes control over the created undead somehow, so other 5th level Clerics get treated as the "creator" of the undead.

In my campaign, there is a special spell involved in the creator of the undead transferring that "created by" tag.
Thiez
10-07-06, 02:47 PM Woot that's kind of cool, that transfer-creator spell. Care to post some details? (I assume it's necromancy. Which level? :))
katarl
10-07-06, 03:47 PM My dread necromancer, and Svass Tam from FR use dread warriors to boost their armies. It doesn't use up HD allowance, and if the dread warriors are clerics, you can control even more!

I also use indentured servitude. Curse a corpse, create undead, then slap the resulting curst about and tell him he'll be released if he serves faithfully for 100 years. If he disobeys, you'll chain him up in a dark room for an extra 20 years or so. Not ideal, they're rebellious, but it can work.
Wuggadad
10-08-06, 03:36 AM In my campaign, the transfer of the "created by" tag can be done in a couple of ways.

An orison or cantrip with a 1 minute casting time by the creator of the undead would transfer the "created by" tag of one undead.

There is also a higher level spell that converts "Commanded by turn attempt" undead into created by undead. So far, I have not explicitly defined it because none of the PCs expressed an interest or have enough ranks in KS Religion or Spellcraft to be familiar with a proprietary spell of a necromantic temple.

There are times when defining something can unnecessarily tie the GMs hands. I wanted the purchase and sale of mindless undead to be a major industry in the campaign world. Necromantic labor forces are the basis of many noble families' wealth. The landed aristocracy controls and supports the local cult temple, or vice versa. This leads easily to corrupt nobles seeking more knowledge of necromancy for more powers.

And so far it is an endless cycle. Temple or noble family gets into necromancy in order to get cheap labor that will enhance their domains. This proves profitable and tempts others to imitate. Eventually the society becomes more corrupt, with more practitioners of necromancy using it for more than just labor. They use it to intimidate, dominate and assassinate and eventually provoke a huge popular uprising against it. Such uprisings draw from neighboring lands as well. The more corrupt the necromancers, the more total the ban on necromancy by those who rebel against it. The accumulated undead workers represent an accumulation of wealth and income that is destroyed in these revolts, resulting in great economic disruption.

And then, a generation or ten later, some other noble or merchant or priest gets tired of being poor and powerless and embraces necromancy again.
PhaedrusXY
10-08-06, 10:48 AM 1st level wizards with Precocious Apprentice can cast Command Undead, and control an unintelligent undead of any hit dice with no saving throw. So if you take Leadership and have all of your first level followers built like this, you can dramatically increase the amount of undead you can control. See the True Necromancer (Contest Version) in my sig for an example.
Kyuketsukiouji
10-08-06, 01:42 PM Hit level 21 and make an Epic spell that raises a skeleton, puts it under your control, but makes it not count as part of your control limit. The DC should be under 30, without any mitigating factors.

Cast as much of it as you want. You can now raise an infinite number of them.
halaster
10-08-06, 01:56 PM many good ways to do this. arcane use the animate gaurd spell. 1 skeleton/lvl w. turn resist equal to ur caster lvl. cant go wrong w. dread necro or cleric.

all other undead prc's suck in comparision to the horned harbringer. at 10 lvl the limit of undead he can control w. spells is 10x. and turning is 5x. mix that w. undead leadership and uve got a massive army. and since the HH gets animate, create and g create as spell likes, he need not pay the gp cost for onyx. it in faithes and pantheons
Demose
10-09-06, 06:36 PM I was once involved in a game where I was an epic level (22) dread necromancer (the 2 extra we're in something else... i can't remember). I took Undead Leadership and negotiated with my DM for Epic Undead Leadership, a bunch of corpse crafter feats, and bought the Rod Of Undead Mastery from Libris Mortis. So i started with a cha of 18, I aged myself to venerable and pumped all ability score increases into cha. 18+3+5=26. I stacked on a +8 cha item so that means 34 Cha at a +12.

Undead mastery from Dread Necro gave me (4+12)x20 so thats 320 HD of undead. The Rod of Undead Mastery doubled it to give me 640 HD flat out from the undead creation spells. 20 more HD from rebuking and

With a minimum leadership score of 36 when dealing with undead? thats alot. 660 1 HD Soldier variant (Heroes Of Horror) skeletons equipped with bows is an amazing way to seige a town. And this is only ECL 1 from leadership.

Any questions?
Any way's to boost it more?
I don't actually play this character anymore but I love finding ways to make undead hordes, it's a fun mental exercise. :D
Demose
10-09-06, 06:41 PM Wow, Horned Harbringer... definately should have seen that one. Thanks man!
Rundor The Mighty
10-12-06, 03:44 AM There are spells like wish or tomes that can give you up to an inherent (aka stacking) +5 bonus to charisma

General of undeath (cleric 8) from spell compendium gives you en extra +1HD per caster level so at level 20 thats an extra 20 HD

*and remember, if you are 20th dread necro you can only control 2 10 HD undead with rebuking, not 1 20HD so it doesn't really count.
kyeudo
10-12-06, 05:40 PM I would suggest Morhgs, you know the skeleton looking things with the purple tentacle guts? Anything they kill animates as a zombie under their control, with no hit dice limit. Have an evil cleric command one of these (they only have 14 hit dice) and go to town. Literaly. You just spend some time at local towns using your Morhg and some zombies and skeletons to round up the locals and have the morgh kill them.

Find a way to get the morhg some of the feats right out of Libris Mortis, (possibly by a limited wish, wish, or miracle), and have an unstoppable undead horde in a matter of days.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zargain 10-06-06, 09:22 PM	I have wondered for terms of your classic undead horde how can yopu create an army of undead that you can control? i mean animate dead gives one the ability to control about x4 your level of undead but thats not even 100 HD unles you're level 25+ A cleric also allows you top have an extra set of undead= your level but even a 20th level cleric is only going to have exactly 100HD of undead. What else should one do to have a capable large army of undead? I already know some ideas such as controling spawn making undead (via control undead or rebuke/control as a cleric) plus having cohorts/followers that can rebuke/control or cast animate dead. Anybody have any more ideas?
Artector 10-06-06, 09:24 PM	Might I suggest looking at the ECS and the Karrnathi undead. They are intelligent, but programmed. Simply make them loyal to you. That's my suggestion.
Izzak 10-06-06, 10:43 PM	I recall a Cleric spell that i think it doubles your HD limit i think its called Undead Commander or Colonel. Im not sure but if it could permenant it would be sweet. That oughta boost your troop count. I'm sorry that i do not have my books on me.
Paxar 10-06-06, 10:48 PM	It's called General of Undeath (SpC Cleric 8), lasts 24 hours so make sure you cast every day or you lose control of the extra undead.
theotherdraxen 10-06-06, 11:21 PM	There's also the Undead Leadership feat in Libris Mortis. Stack that with the Extra Followers feat found in Heroes of Battle, and you'll have 326 undead followers. This should boost your troop number, but probably not to the point of army-size. Try having a cohort with Undead Leadership and Extra Followers. This'll give you 652 undead followers. Still not army size (Heroes of Battle gives you the rank of Colonel, and your cohort the rank of Major). Stack that with the suggestions above, and you should be able to control 652+8xyour class level+8xyour cohort's class level undead. At 20th level, you'll have a total of 948 undead soldiers. See if there is any way you can use those higher level followers to boost your undead numbers. I'm pretty sure there are some creatures that offer you extra undead. Plus, if you make your 8 6th level followers all Necropolitan Clerics, they'll be able to give you an extra 120 hit dice worth of undead. Grand Total: 1,068. Your undead army is complete with low-ranking soldiers and high-ranking commanders, ready to rebuke the undead as necessary. But if you really want an army, you're going to have to reach above 5000 men. Plus, I don't know how controlable this army will be. Your followers are really going to have to pick up the slack when it comes to making sure all those guys stay in line. Unless you use the programmable undead as Artector suggested, though I'm not sure how this will affect the number of Hit Dice you can command.
smrtgmp 10-06-06, 11:29 PM	Play a dread necromancer (heroes of horror). Starting at 8th level, they can control a number of undead equal to (4+cha mod) x caster level. Given that they're charisma based casters, nothing will be able to compete with that.
User5127 10-07-06, 12:16 AM	also: the "Death knight" template double the HD that you can control. True necromancer is also an option. and undead leadership from libris mortis. Be careful with undead commander chains: if they figure out wich is in charge and kill it, you lose those undead. at epic level i think you can also get permanent emanations and add certain effects.
Wuggadad 10-07-06, 02:27 AM	Use the Command Undead spell with Extend duration. For a 3rd level slot, a 12 level wizard could control a mindless undead for 24 days, no save. So that is, effectively, 24 undead per 3rd level slot a wizard is willing to commit each day to controlling undead. A few level 3 Pearls of Power and that is a lot of undead.
Lina_Inverse 10-07-06, 02:48 AM	Army huh? Lemme see. Lvl20 cleric. Leadership-cohort is a 17th level cleric. Assume you have a leadership of 25. +2 for stronghold, and a mere +3 for charisma. You have 25th level clerics and 26th level clerics. So far 192 skeletons. Pathetic eh? Both your cohort and the 6th level clerics qualify for leadership. Give it to them Your cohort has a cohort, leadership. Etc. Now give every part of the leadership chain you can undead leadership. Thousands of undead are yours!
Black Mantha 10-07-06, 03:11 AM	And if you have the money, you can hire NPC's who can control undead. There's no limit on that, as long as you have a lot of money, or can keep the gold coming in.
Wuggadad 10-07-06, 01:15 PM	A 12th level wizard, in a Desecrated area, could create zombies with up to 48 hit dice. He could then control, no save, no SR, up to 24 of those zombies per 3rd level spell committed each day to controlling his army. With that size zombie, the necromancer is more limited by the source of corpses than anything else. Another way to get large armies is to allow the 'creation tag' involved in the Animate Dead spell to be transferred. Consider a high level nasty with Fell Animate and a whole bunch of Corpse Crafter feats. They can create large numbers of undead without resort to Onyx. If casters capable of casting Animate Dead could somehow get those undead included in their controlled undead then you could have one or two really talent necromancers producing undead labor and grunt forces for a whole slew of low level casters. So the 12th+ level caster Fell Animates an army, and then passes control over the created undead somehow, so other 5th level Clerics get treated as the "creator" of the undead. In my campaign, there is a special spell involved in the creator of the undead transferring that "created by" tag.
Thiez 10-07-06, 02:47 PM	Woot that's kind of cool, that transfer-creator spell. Care to post some details? (I assume it's necromancy. Which level? :))
katarl 10-07-06, 03:47 PM	My dread necromancer, and Svass Tam from FR use dread warriors to boost their armies. It doesn't use up HD allowance, and if the dread warriors are clerics, you can control even more! I also use indentured servitude. Curse a corpse, create undead, then slap the resulting curst about and tell him he'll be released if he serves faithfully for 100 years. If he disobeys, you'll chain him up in a dark room for an extra 20 years or so. Not ideal, they're rebellious, but it can work.
Wuggadad 10-08-06, 03:36 AM	In my campaign, the transfer of the "created by" tag can be done in a couple of ways. An orison or cantrip with a 1 minute casting time by the creator of the undead would transfer the "created by" tag of one undead. There is also a higher level spell that converts "Commanded by turn attempt" undead into created by undead. So far, I have not explicitly defined it because none of the PCs expressed an interest or have enough ranks in KS Religion or Spellcraft to be familiar with a proprietary spell of a necromantic temple. There are times when defining something can unnecessarily tie the GMs hands. I wanted the purchase and sale of mindless undead to be a major industry in the campaign world. Necromantic labor forces are the basis of many noble families' wealth. The landed aristocracy controls and supports the local cult temple, or vice versa. This leads easily to corrupt nobles seeking more knowledge of necromancy for more powers. And so far it is an endless cycle. Temple or noble family gets into necromancy in order to get cheap labor that will enhance their domains. This proves profitable and tempts others to imitate. Eventually the society becomes more corrupt, with more practitioners of necromancy using it for more than just labor. They use it to intimidate, dominate and assassinate and eventually provoke a huge popular uprising against it. Such uprisings draw from neighboring lands as well. The more corrupt the necromancers, the more total the ban on necromancy by those who rebel against it. The accumulated undead workers represent an accumulation of wealth and income that is destroyed in these revolts, resulting in great economic disruption. And then, a generation or ten later, some other noble or merchant or priest gets tired of being poor and powerless and embraces necromancy again.
PhaedrusXY 10-08-06, 10:48 AM	1st level wizards with Precocious Apprentice can cast Command Undead, and control an unintelligent undead of any hit dice with no saving throw. So if you take Leadership and have all of your first level followers built like this, you can dramatically increase the amount of undead you can control. See the True Necromancer (Contest Version) in my sig for an example.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-08-06, 01:42 PM	Hit level 21 and make an Epic spell that raises a skeleton, puts it under your control, but makes it not count as part of your control limit. The DC should be under 30, without any mitigating factors. Cast as much of it as you want. You can now raise an infinite number of them.
halaster 10-08-06, 01:56 PM	many good ways to do this. arcane use the animate gaurd spell. 1 skeleton/lvl w. turn resist equal to ur caster lvl. cant go wrong w. dread necro or cleric. all other undead prc's suck in comparision to the horned harbringer. at 10 lvl the limit of undead he can control w. spells is 10x. and turning is 5x. mix that w. undead leadership and uve got a massive army. and since the HH gets animate, create and g create as spell likes, he need not pay the gp cost for onyx. it in faithes and pantheons
Demose 10-09-06, 06:36 PM	I was once involved in a game where I was an epic level (22) dread necromancer (the 2 extra we're in something else... i can't remember). I took Undead Leadership and negotiated with my DM for Epic Undead Leadership, a bunch of corpse crafter feats, and bought the Rod Of Undead Mastery from Libris Mortis. So i started with a cha of 18, I aged myself to venerable and pumped all ability score increases into cha. 18+3+5=26. I stacked on a +8 cha item so that means 34 Cha at a +12. Undead mastery from Dread Necro gave me (4+12)x20 so thats 320 HD of undead. The Rod of Undead Mastery doubled it to give me 640 HD flat out from the undead creation spells. 20 more HD from rebuking and With a minimum leadership score of 36 when dealing with undead? thats alot. 660 1 HD Soldier variant (Heroes Of Horror) skeletons equipped with bows is an amazing way to seige a town. And this is only ECL 1 from leadership. Any questions? Any way's to boost it more? I don't actually play this character anymore but I love finding ways to make undead hordes, it's a fun mental exercise. :D
Demose 10-09-06, 06:41 PM	Wow, Horned Harbringer... definately should have seen that one. Thanks man!
Rundor The Mighty 10-12-06, 03:44 AM	There are spells like wish or tomes that can give you up to an inherent (aka stacking) +5 bonus to charisma General of undeath (cleric 8) from spell compendium gives you en extra +1HD per caster level so at level 20 thats an extra 20 HD *and remember, if you are 20th dread necro you can only control 2 10 HD undead with rebuking, not 1 20HD so it doesn't really count.
kyeudo 10-12-06, 05:40 PM	I would suggest Morhgs, you know the skeleton looking things with the purple tentacle guts? Anything they kill animates as a zombie under their control, with no hit dice limit. Have an evil cleric command one of these (they only have 14 hit dice) and go to town. Literaly. You just spend some time at local towns using your Morhg and some zombies and skeletons to round up the locals and have the morgh kill them. Find a way to get the morhg some of the feats right out of Libris Mortis, (possibly by a limited wish, wish, or miracle), and have an unstoppable undead horde in a matter of days.