Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheRealOrion 03-10-08, 03:20 AM	I have a 4th-level Summoner and I'm really enjoying calling up monsters who do all my fighting for me. It's pretty cool. I have Improved Summoning, which is useful, but I'm wracking my brains trying to come up with other ways to enhance summoned creatures. Spell Penetration is no help because summoning doesn't require saves. I don't want to take a familiar; it's out of character. Any ideas or suggestions you have would be awesome. Thanks!
Ashen_Child 03-10-08, 04:38 AM	There's always a one level dip in alienist to give summoned monsters a 1/day quickened truestrike.
Seeker95 03-10-08, 08:49 AM	Augment Summoning [general] feat lets you add +4 to the Strength and Con scores. Imbue Summoning [metamagic] feat lets you apply another spell to your summoned creatures at the time of the summoning for a +1 SL adjustment. I would suggest adding mirror image rather than adding buffs. Summon four creatures that are mirrored, and you have a whole lot of frustration on the part of their opponents! Extend spell [metamagic] feat lets your summoned friends stay longer. While here at work, I do not have access to my books, so I do not know if Twin Spell can be applied to a summon, but if it can... :D
lord_xarallon 03-10-08, 09:02 AM	Say you summoned a colossal monstrous spider and then a little man comes along with an antimagic field. The AMF only covers the spiders one of its squares. Does it wink out?
runestar 03-10-08, 09:29 AM	While here at work, I do not have access to my books, so I do not know if Twin Spell can be applied to a summon, but if it can... Twinned summon seems like a waste, when you can opt to summon more of a weaker monster. Unless you are referring to malconvoker...;)
lord_xarallon 03-10-08, 10:02 AM	Runestar, do you have anything to say regarding my previous question?
RavingDork 03-10-08, 10:32 AM	Metamagic School Focus (or whatever its called) from Complete Mage allows you to reduce a metamagic feats cost by 1 three times each day. That means you can prepare 3 extended summons, 3 imbued summonings, or mix and match without any extra cost each day! If you are willing to give us your generic spell slots and go with almost all conjuration spells, than you can take up the Focused Specialist alternate class ability (I think its in Complete Mage). Complete Mage also has the Master Specialist prestige class which makes your summons pretty powereful too.
Seeker95 03-10-08, 11:42 AM	Does it wink out?Yes.
Seeker95 03-10-08, 11:48 AM	Twinned summon seems like a waste, when you can opt to summon more of a weaker monster.True, but with a one round casting time, you can also twin the spell to summon twice as many of the weaker monster. Think about it: Twinned, imbued, augmented summon monster blah with mirror image as the imbued spell. Summon 4 of the weaker monsters it would allow (Augment) them with +4 Con and Strength (+2 to hit/damage and +whatever to hit points). Get 8 of them instead (twinned) With mirror image (imbued) give them the appearance (and defensive benefit) of there being 16 to 72 (d4+1/CL, max 8 images)) of them! And if you [extend] this as well, you have a lot of summoned monsters sticking around long enough to help you engage in combat with a rather large opposing force. Turn yourself invisible to make the best effort to stay out of the mix!
nagasaki 03-10-08, 12:00 PM	well, there is a feat from the ECS that lets you add an additional +4 to STR and CON of ellenentals, I don't know what its called. Hope that helps.
LSMFT 03-10-08, 02:50 PM	There's always a one level dip in alienist to give summoned monsters a 1/day quickened truestrike. That True Strike is nice, especially as many of your summoned creatures won't last more than one round, and especially if you use a lower list to summon multiple creatures, they have a hard time hitting. One problem I have with this though is that all your creatures with the celestial or infernal templates are changed to Pseudonatural. Fine, but then you lose the ability to summon any creature without the Pseudonatural template, so no regular celestials, demons, devils, elementals. Seems a serious cut in your options. With mirror image (imbued) give them the appearance (and defensive benefit) of there being 16 to 72 (d4+1/CL, max 8 images)) of them! I didn't think you could Imbue a spell with a range of Personal, just Touch? I do like Imbued Summoning, I think it is a great way to buff up your summoned creatures quick. It does make planning things out tough, because you have to have not only the Summon Spells ready, but a number of the buffs too. You can make scrolls of Imbued Summoning, though that is expensive, and then devote spell slots to possible buffs. At least in the short term. When you’re high enough level to have a bunch of low-level slots, that won’t be as necessary. One of your first priorities though is cutting down the casting time. There is a variant in UA that will do this. If that isn’t available, try the Master Specialist from CMag. Going that route, you won’t get the ability until level 13. Still, in the long run, that PrC is one of your better options. Next: Know your monsters. Prepare some note cards by key abilities and such. No one wants to wait while you cross reference spells in the PHB with the creatures in the MM. Know your monsters: many have spell-like abilities. The ability to summon one of them is as good as the ability to cast the spell. Why prepare Etherealness when you can summon a Night Hag to cast it for you? Cleric just went down, summon a Bralani to move in and cast his Cure Serious Wounds at will. Next, plan how you will use monsters. Direct attack isn’t really that great, unless you can get them really buffed up. They do make great flankers. They can make great blockers. Flying summons can vex that annoying warlock with Fell Flight always active. Know the ones with Improved Grab to keep an enemy from escaping. And a personal favorite: Aid Another. Use multiple summons to aid your front line guys, boost their to-hit so they can use Power Attack or boost their AC so they can avoid getting smashed and fight another round. Lastly, don’t think that you are locked in to Summoning every round. There are a lot of other spells out there, and Conjuration is one of the stronger schools. You have direct damage spells to get past SR, like your Orbs, wicked area control spells like Evard’s Black Tentacles, and area attacks like Stinking Cloud or Acid Fog.
Seeker95 03-10-08, 03:06 PM	I didn't think you could Imbue a spell with a range of Personal, just Touch?All personal spells are touch. Not all touch spells are personal. :tiphat:
LSMFT 03-10-08, 03:12 PM	Are you sure? Or are you just messing with me? Any spell with a range of personal can count as one with a range of touch? That just doesn't seem right.
TheRealOrion 03-10-08, 04:36 PM	This is great, guys and gals. Thank you! Some of this stuff I already knew, but a LOT of it is news to me. My summoner is going to kick ass... or at least call up creatures that will do his ass-kicking for him. Please suggest more stuff!
Seeker95 03-10-08, 04:49 PM	Any spell with a range of personal can count as one with a range of touch? Scratch that (which I did in my original post) and reverse it. "You can always cast a touch spell on yourself" was what I was thinking, and it got reversed in my efforts to defend my answer. Even this statement has a caveat: A touch spell can only be cast on yourself if someone else attempting to cast such a spell on you could potentially succeed. You must be a valid target (type, size, etc.) in order to can use it on yourself.
LSMFT 03-10-08, 05:19 PM	I like to make sure I have a mix of summon monster, summon undead, and other spells available. (I’m making a BBEG lich, and part of his plan is to use a lot of Summon Undead spells to call skeletons, then blast the area with Uttercold Spells. Heal the skeletons while damaging the PCs.) I find it is very beneficial to have buffers in the party who have spells and abilities that affect “allies” like the bard’s Inspire Courage or the Bless spell. At higher levels, Haste can affect a number of targets, so it is easy to speed up your summons. I like atypical attacks. Look at the list of things you can summon, and their CR is way behind your casting level. Even with a bumped up Str, they need all the help they can to hit. But, touch attacks are another story, and with a size advantage, you can usually make some decent grapples. Those in a grapple are denied their dex, and if you accidentally hit the creature, who cares? (Except for the wasted action, of course.) Pinned opponents can’t move well, and have a hard time casting spells. Also, you have to know your DM. For example, me, when I’m running a bad guy, I have my NPCs take two large-sized creatures flanking him seriously, even when I (as the DM) know they can’t possibly beat his AC. So, he treats them as legit threats, attacks them, avoids allowing them AoOs. But, I’ve had DMs basically “metagame” the NPCs and they just ignore summoned creatures, walk right by them drawing an AoO that will never hit or get past DR if it does. That kind of stuff. If you know your DM will do that, you know your summons are going to be as effective as they ought to be.
LSMFT 03-10-08, 05:21 PM	Scratch that (which I did in my original post) and reverse it.As a DM, I am relieved. Though, as a player, I was already looking for ways to use it. Thanks. :)
Devilkiller4e 03-10-08, 09:34 PM	part of his plan is to use a lot of Summon Undead spells to call skeletons, then blast the area with Uttercold Spells. Heal the skeletons while damaging the PCs This is a tactic I really enjoy. Living necromancers can get a lot of mileage out of it too by buffing with Shroud of Undeath and Resist Cold so they can heal themselves too. You can also cast an Uttercold Wall of Fire and stand around in it...ahh. Also, a great buff spell for undead summons is Undead Torch. It adds +2d6 damage to attacks against living creatures. Another decent feat for summoners is Beckon the Frozen from Frostburn. It gives all your summoned creatures the cold subtype and +1d6 cold damage on natural attacks. My favorite spell to Imbue is Girallon's Blessing, which is a good use for Metamagic School Focus. Summoned Monsters can have a tough time scoring hits, but with GB you get 4 attacks per monster, and any monster who hits twice gets a rend. Apes and bears work pretty well for this. Imbued GB skeletons with Undead Torch are completely nuts though. You can potentially do 200-300 damage per round with these guys by 7th level assuming you find a living foe with an AC low enough for them to hit, say about 20. If you're using Summon Monster instead the suggestion to get a bard is an excellent one. Rapid Spell can be nice too since you can summon something right away to use as a shield between you and oncoming enemies. Alienist can be a bit of a mixed bag. You give up a lot of the utility of Summon Monster by going this route, but you get tons of cool factor. I designed my own set of 'alien' beings with weird names like "the jibwa" (a large size version of that thing pictured with the Alienist in CA) and "the hideous 4 armed dubu beast", drew pictures of them, and even made a few custom minis. For instance, the kimulimuli are giant fire beetles with fanged human heads. My Alienists use them in the place of Magic Missile since they have True Strike. Sure, they only do 2d4+3+1d6 damage (about 11.5), but they get in the way, flank, and even draw attacks off of PCs sometimes. Instead of a giant crocodile there's the shoggoth like ngwena. With true strike, improved grab, and a +23 grapple it is sure to make a lot opponents unhappy. If you do go Alienist be sure to try the "Flaming alien dire weasel" combo. First cast Summon Monster V. Go ahead and use a full round for it. Now, as the monsters appear cast Mass Fire Shield and have them all attack a single enemy using the true strike ability. With the +20 they should all hit, and now your enemy has 2-5 flaming alien dire weasels on his face. If he doesn't get them all off before next turn he'll take 1d4 Con damage per remaining weasel. If he tries to get rid of them with melee attacks he'll take a bunch of fire damage. It isn't the most effective thing you could do, but you get to say "flaming alien dire weasels". Twinning the Summon would be a fun way to waste an 8th or 9th level spell slot. Replacing the Mass Fire Shield with a Rapid Summon Monster V would be cheaper as long as your enemy doesn't have enough attacks to kill 2d4+2 weasels. Using the Rapid spell on stunned or dazed enemies might actually be pretty effective...hmm...
elyse 03-10-08, 11:22 PM	Two suggestions: 1. If you are a specialist wizard conjurer (it may be a little late for this), there is an Unearthed Arcana alternate class feature. Instead of a familiar, you cast summon monster spells as a standard action 2. Malkonvoker. End of story.
LSMFT 03-11-08, 10:26 AM	Devilkiller: I love the flaming dire weasels. Fantastic. There is a spell in LoM, Arms of Plenty, which is very similar to Girallon's Blessing. You grow two arms and get two claws, damage and rend. It is in some ways superior to Girallon's, as it doesn't interfere with any existing ability to hold and use weapons with your pre-existing arms. Malconvoker: loses a casting level. Not for me.
Soltares 03-11-08, 10:32 AM	Eventually some smart enemy will think of hiding behind Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law or Magic Circle of Protection vs. E/G/C/L. Always have a Dispel Magic handle for those chuckleheads.
Devilkiller4e 03-11-08, 07:08 PM	LSMFT - Thanks, I'm glad somebody liked the weasels. I'm aware of Arms of Plenty, but Spell Compendium is allowed in many more games than Lords of Madness. Girallon's Blessing is also very useful as a 10 min/level buff for the caster or a cohort, animal companion, polymorphed familiar, etc.
TheRealOrion 03-12-08, 01:50 AM	The Protection from... spells have already come up. I suppose it was only a matter of time, but I have to say I'm impressed with Samantha, a first-time DM, picking up on it so quickly! I'll have Dispel ready to go, in future.
runestar 03-12-08, 07:20 AM	Eventually some smart enemy will think of hiding behind Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law or Magic Circle of Protection vs. E/G/C/L. Always have a Dispel Magic handle for those chuckleheads. Note that prot from evil is not as foolproof as one might imagine. Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature. Prot from evil does not ward against good summons. First and foremost, I find it hard to believe that the enemy caster always has the precise version of protect from alignment spell to use (unless the DM metagames). Likewise, you can easily overcome it. For example, if the wizard casts prot from good, simply bring in evil-aligned monsters.:)
Lazzmaniandevil 03-12-08, 07:38 AM	To add to the mirror image / imbued summoning debate: LINK (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070509a) Q: Dear Sage, Does the Imbued Summoning feat (PH2, 42) affect only one summoned creature or all creatures summoned by the spell? --Sebastien A: Only one summoned creature (chosen by you) gains the benefit of the spell you choose to cast. So even without considering the personal vs touch debate, only 1 of the creatures you summoned would be affected by the mirror image spell
RavingDork 03-12-08, 09:32 AM	To add to the mirror image / imbued summoning debate: So even without considering the personal vs touch debate, only 1 of the creatures you summoned would be affected by the mirror image spell Aw man! That sucks! :(