Building Better Illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building Better Illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-17-06, 09:34 PM I like illusions, I really do. The image spells are nice... but somethin'gs missing... Actually a couple of things. They just aren't in line with fantasy illusions to me. In my opinion, they need two things to make them fantastic: a non-concentration duration and targetability.

Concentration
Concentration sucks. Yes, balance, balance, blah, blah, blah -- but concentration durations are obnoxious. You can't cast more spells (i.e. you can't have layers of illusions) and if you take damage, you're boned.

Fantasy illusionists don't seem to have to put up with that crap unless they're actively controling the illusion. So why should DnD illusionists?

I figure that the 'combat' durations 3.5 and to a lesser extent 3.5 run on can safely be lifted for decidely non-combat spells like the image spells. I really don't see the need for a concentration duration on these.

Persistant and Permenant Image are insanely high level.

Targets
Another staple of fantasy that seems to be ignored. Sometimes, its nice to make everyone see different things. In fact, sometimes, it's a great way to turn characters against each other.

Alas, I've not seen it in DnD. Closest thing is Suggestion.

To fix this, I'm thinking of rebuilding from the ground up. Seperating the spells into making illusary objects, creatures, locales and sensations rather than lumping them all into the images.

Any input is welcome.
Bloodtide_the_Red
05-18-06, 12:16 AM I guess you could say concentration is a bummer fpr all spellcasters. It's there for balance, though. You realy want spellcasters that are able to cast several spells in a row and layer them? Would you do it for all spellcasters, or just illusion spells? or just Illusionist wizards?

What might work it a 'free standing' concentration rule. Something like you have to concentrate on the spell at least every other round. So you'd get a 'free' round, every other round, to take an action.

Or you could always quicken spells to go off when you use your illusions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are the two types of illusions, Figments-everyone sees the same thing and Phantasms-the target sees thier own personal illusion in thier mind. So, you could just add more phantasm type spells.

I'm not sure personal illusions would work so well at the table. RAW-the bad guy creates a illusion of a lion to attack the PC's. The Dm only needs to say 'a lion attacks', and the game goes on...... Your suggestion-The bad guy creates his illusion, and the game stops. The Dm has to write down eight notes and pass them to all the players of what 'scary monster' they see, or tell each player in another room, or do the 'ok, no one listen to this except Bob'.

What your taking about is realy just new spells. How about some 0 and 1st level illusion spells that need no concentration, but can only make a limited type of things. And new phantasms that do things like 'make you feel heat, cold or creatures crawling on your skin.

Out there in D20 land, there are spells like Crawling Skin, Phantasmal Swarm, Phantasmal Assailants, Phantasmal Fragrance and Sensory Deprivation.

BT
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-18-06, 12:40 AM I guess you could say concentration is a bummer fpr all spellcasters. It's there for balance, though. You realy want spellcasters that are able to cast several spells in a row and layer them? Would you do it for all spellcasters, or just illusion spells? or just Illusionist wizards?
I'm specifically talking about the Image line of spells. I call up an image of a tree. A free standing tree. And I have to concentrate to keep it in existance. There is no reason that one should have to concentrate to keep a static illusion online.

Or you could always quicken spells to go off when you use your illusions.
Unless you'e a sorcerous illusionist, then Skip Hate Sorcerers comes out and smacks you. Even a bard, who should be a decent illusionist.

There are the two types of illusions, Figments-everyone sees the same thing and Phantasms-the target sees thier own personal illusion in thier mind. So, you could just add more phantasm type spells.
Precisely the point. I need to write up an entirely new Image line to deal with these two problems; effectively replacing the Images with minute/hour per level phantasms.

I'm not sure personal illusions would work so well at the table. RAW-the bad guy creates a illusion of a lion to attack the PC's. The Dm only needs to say 'a lion attacks', and the game goes on...... Your suggestion-The bad guy creates his illusion, and the game stops. The Dm has to write down eight notes and pass them to all the players of what 'scary monster' they see, or tell each player in another room, or do the 'ok, no one listen to this except Bob'.
Only if you have sucktastic players. You just say 'you guys don't see that, you see this.'

What your taking about is realy just new spells.
Exactly.

Out there in D20 land, there are spells like Crawling Skin, Phantasmal Swarm, Phantasmal Assailants, Phantasmal Fragrance and Sensory Deprivation.
None of which do what I want. I want to have a illusory copy of character A come up to character B and insult him, while character C sees nothing.
tarkin
05-18-06, 10:51 AM I like the idea of differential visions for different targets.

Such an idea would of course have to be a mind-affecting illusion, instead of the regular kind.

How about this:

Multiplicity (Metamagic)

Pre Req: The ability to cast illusion spells of 3rd level or greater.

Benefit: Can only be applied to illusion spells that normally affect all that see it. The spell gains the description (Mind Affecting) if it did not already have it. Now, the caster can define upto 1 additional illusion/5 caster levels (upto a maximum at 20th level of 5 total illusions). The caster decideds which person sees which version of the illusion. The decision can be done on a per person basis, or the caster can use race, gender, or ranks in an int based skill to determine who sees what. The caster decides which qualification over-rides the others. Once the spell has been cast, the caster can no longer control which illusion individuals see.

I.E. You could say "Joe sees a dragon, Peter sees a treant, any elf (besides Joe) sees a waterfall, and any non-elf that has at least 5 ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) sees a Fire Elemental.

The spell takes up a slot +2 levels higher than normal.
Sian_Son_of_Cune
05-18-06, 11:18 AM As far as the concentration thing. There is a feat in the either the complete arcane or divine(forget which) that allows you to make a concentration check to maintain concentration on a spell as a move or free action. That would allow you to cast a spell while concentration on another. The feat says that you still cannot concentrate on 2 spells at once though.
ClementWillowbreaker
05-18-06, 12:11 PM Extraordinary Concentration out of the CV allows you to concentrate as a move action with a Concentration check. An illusionist would be advised to take it. The SC has a wide variety of illusion spells, but most are more of the same (not very versitile) except for Reflective Disguise, which makes you appear as a member of the each viewer's race to the viewer. Glamers like that have potential (and aren't mind-affecting).
Puca
05-18-06, 12:15 PM Concentration sucks. Yes, balance, balance, blah, blah, blah -- but concentration durations are obnoxious. You can't cast more spells (i.e. you can't have layers of illusions) and if you take damage, you're boned.I agree with you. I was excited to see the Extraordinary Concentration feat, thought it would help that a lot, but damn it if you need fifteen ranks, level 12. Thats about the end of most of my characters careers.

Another staple of fantasy that seems to be ignored. Sometimes, its nice to make everyone see different things. In fact, sometimes, it's a great way to turn characters against each other.I would worry about this mechanically. Seems like a lot to have to keep track of. (Someone else mentioned this, and you dismissed it, but I think it might be more time-consuming than you think. Maybe Im playing with sucktastic players. :D

But, you could have illusions that work like the Image spells, but maybe only target one creature. That could give you this flavor and balance them with existing spells maybe?

Something like a level-2 spell that targets one person but in all other ways works like Silent Image, duration 1 round/level. By dropping new spells in subsequent rounds, you get the same effect you were looking for?
cambric
05-18-06, 12:20 PM I have to agree with you on this...there has to be a better solution. I know, as someone said, there is a feat or spell that allows you to do other spells and not concentrate on 'concentration' spells, but I don't know exactly what it is.

I love playing illusionists too, but my DM is pretty strick on it and until you get high level, like you said, for the permenant ones, they aren't always great. I've saved our butts a few times with illusions, but while you're stuck there concentrating, everyone else is doing something, it seems, more exciting.

Cam
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-18-06, 05:38 PM Here's my plan:

Spell Line: Illusion Arts

Illusion [Mind Effecting]

Casting times are full round to 1 minute with 1 round/minute per level durations with the permenancy option open.

Target is on creature OR 1 creature/2 levels for the higher level ones.

Effect is 'As [image spell], but only targets a single creature. You may concentrate on the illusion to change it, otherwise it remains static.

Spell Line: Illusory X

Illusion [Shadow]

Casting times 1 minute or greater with durations in hours to permanent.

Creates an illusory X that is only 's' real before it breaks and dissolves into shadow.

Possible concepts: Illusory Object, Weapon, Ally, Locale

working on the prototypes as we speak.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-18-06, 09:19 PM First attempts:

Illusion Arts I
Illusion (Phantasm)[Mind-effecting]
Brd1 Sorc/Wiz1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Medium (100ft+10ft/caster level)
Effect: A Visual figment that cannot extend beyond one ten foot cube, plus one ten foot cube per caster level.
Target: One creature
Duration: 1round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. This illusion can only be seen by the target. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect by concentrating. If you fail a concentration check while doing so, the spell ends.

Illusory Object
Illusion (Shadow)
Bard1, Sorc/Wiz1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: 5ft (see text)
Effect: A partially real illusory object
Duration: Permanent (see text)
Saving Throw: --
Spell Resistance: --

You call into being a object that appears in your hand or within 5 feet of you. The object’s volume can be no more than 1 cubic foot/caster level. This object is made of shadow and is only partially real. A spot check with a DC equal to 10 + caster level reveals its nature as a fraud, as does an appraise check DC 10.

The created object is also very fragile, capable of only supporting 5lb/caster level before it is destroyed and evaporates into the ether. A successful attack on or with the object instantly destroys it. A successful dispel check also destroys an illusory object.

Food created with this spell tastes normal, but is non-nourishing.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-27-06, 11:43 PM bump.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-17-06, 09:34 PM	I like illusions, I really do. The image spells are nice... but somethin'gs missing... Actually a couple of things. They just aren't in line with fantasy illusions to me. In my opinion, they need two things to make them fantastic: a non-concentration duration and targetability. Concentration Concentration sucks. Yes, balance, balance, blah, blah, blah -- but concentration durations are obnoxious. You can't cast more spells (i.e. you can't have layers of illusions) and if you take damage, you're boned. Fantasy illusionists don't seem to have to put up with that crap unless they're actively controling the illusion. So why should DnD illusionists? I figure that the 'combat' durations 3.5 and to a lesser extent 3.5 run on can safely be lifted for decidely non-combat spells like the image spells. I really don't see the need for a concentration duration on these. Persistant and Permenant Image are insanely high level. Targets Another staple of fantasy that seems to be ignored. Sometimes, its nice to make everyone see different things. In fact, sometimes, it's a great way to turn characters against each other. Alas, I've not seen it in DnD. Closest thing is Suggestion. To fix this, I'm thinking of rebuilding from the ground up. Seperating the spells into making illusary objects, creatures, locales and sensations rather than lumping them all into the images. Any input is welcome.
Bloodtide_the_Red 05-18-06, 12:16 AM	I guess you could say concentration is a bummer fpr all spellcasters. It's there for balance, though. You realy want spellcasters that are able to cast several spells in a row and layer them? Would you do it for all spellcasters, or just illusion spells? or just Illusionist wizards? What might work it a 'free standing' concentration rule. Something like you have to concentrate on the spell at least every other round. So you'd get a 'free' round, every other round, to take an action. Or you could always quicken spells to go off when you use your illusions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are the two types of illusions, Figments-everyone sees the same thing and Phantasms-the target sees thier own personal illusion in thier mind. So, you could just add more phantasm type spells. I'm not sure personal illusions would work so well at the table. RAW-the bad guy creates a illusion of a lion to attack the PC's. The Dm only needs to say 'a lion attacks', and the game goes on...... Your suggestion-The bad guy creates his illusion, and the game stops. The Dm has to write down eight notes and pass them to all the players of what 'scary monster' they see, or tell each player in another room, or do the 'ok, no one listen to this except Bob'. What your taking about is realy just new spells. How about some 0 and 1st level illusion spells that need no concentration, but can only make a limited type of things. And new phantasms that do things like 'make you feel heat, cold or creatures crawling on your skin. Out there in D20 land, there are spells like Crawling Skin, Phantasmal Swarm, Phantasmal Assailants, Phantasmal Fragrance and Sensory Deprivation. BT
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-18-06, 12:40 AM	I guess you could say concentration is a bummer fpr all spellcasters. It's there for balance, though. You realy want spellcasters that are able to cast several spells in a row and layer them? Would you do it for all spellcasters, or just illusion spells? or just Illusionist wizards? I'm specifically talking about the Image line of spells. I call up an image of a tree. A free standing tree. And I have to concentrate to keep it in existance. There is no reason that one should have to concentrate to keep a static illusion online. Or you could always quicken spells to go off when you use your illusions. Unless you'e a sorcerous illusionist, then Skip Hate Sorcerers comes out and smacks you. Even a bard, who should be a decent illusionist. There are the two types of illusions, Figments-everyone sees the same thing and Phantasms-the target sees thier own personal illusion in thier mind. So, you could just add more phantasm type spells. Precisely the point. I need to write up an entirely new Image line to deal with these two problems; effectively replacing the Images with minute/hour per level phantasms. I'm not sure personal illusions would work so well at the table. RAW-the bad guy creates a illusion of a lion to attack the PC's. The Dm only needs to say 'a lion attacks', and the game goes on...... Your suggestion-The bad guy creates his illusion, and the game stops. The Dm has to write down eight notes and pass them to all the players of what 'scary monster' they see, or tell each player in another room, or do the 'ok, no one listen to this except Bob'. Only if you have sucktastic players. You just say 'you guys don't see that, you see this.' What your taking about is realy just new spells. Exactly. Out there in D20 land, there are spells like Crawling Skin, Phantasmal Swarm, Phantasmal Assailants, Phantasmal Fragrance and Sensory Deprivation. None of which do what I want. I want to have a illusory copy of character A come up to character B and insult him, while character C sees nothing.
tarkin 05-18-06, 10:51 AM	I like the idea of differential visions for different targets. Such an idea would of course have to be a mind-affecting illusion, instead of the regular kind. How about this: Multiplicity (Metamagic) Pre Req: The ability to cast illusion spells of 3rd level or greater. Benefit: Can only be applied to illusion spells that normally affect all that see it. The spell gains the description (Mind Affecting) if it did not already have it. Now, the caster can define upto 1 additional illusion/5 caster levels (upto a maximum at 20th level of 5 total illusions). The caster decideds which person sees which version of the illusion. The decision can be done on a per person basis, or the caster can use race, gender, or ranks in an int based skill to determine who sees what. The caster decides which qualification over-rides the others. Once the spell has been cast, the caster can no longer control which illusion individuals see. I.E. You could say "Joe sees a dragon, Peter sees a treant, any elf (besides Joe) sees a waterfall, and any non-elf that has at least 5 ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) sees a Fire Elemental. The spell takes up a slot +2 levels higher than normal.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-18-06, 11:18 AM	As far as the concentration thing. There is a feat in the either the complete arcane or divine(forget which) that allows you to make a concentration check to maintain concentration on a spell as a move or free action. That would allow you to cast a spell while concentration on another. The feat says that you still cannot concentrate on 2 spells at once though.
ClementWillowbreaker 05-18-06, 12:11 PM	Extraordinary Concentration out of the CV allows you to concentrate as a move action with a Concentration check. An illusionist would be advised to take it. The SC has a wide variety of illusion spells, but most are more of the same (not very versitile) except for Reflective Disguise, which makes you appear as a member of the each viewer's race to the viewer. Glamers like that have potential (and aren't mind-affecting).
Puca 05-18-06, 12:15 PM	Concentration sucks. Yes, balance, balance, blah, blah, blah -- but concentration durations are obnoxious. You can't cast more spells (i.e. you can't have layers of illusions) and if you take damage, you're boned.I agree with you. I was excited to see the Extraordinary Concentration feat, thought it would help that a lot, but damn it if you need fifteen ranks, level 12. Thats about the end of most of my characters careers. Another staple of fantasy that seems to be ignored. Sometimes, its nice to make everyone see different things. In fact, sometimes, it's a great way to turn characters against each other.I would worry about this mechanically. Seems like a lot to have to keep track of. (Someone else mentioned this, and you dismissed it, but I think it might be more time-consuming than you think. Maybe Im playing with sucktastic players. :D But, you could have illusions that work like the Image spells, but maybe only target one creature. That could give you this flavor and balance them with existing spells maybe? Something like a level-2 spell that targets one person but in all other ways works like Silent Image, duration 1 round/level. By dropping new spells in subsequent rounds, you get the same effect you were looking for?
cambric 05-18-06, 12:20 PM	I have to agree with you on this...there has to be a better solution. I know, as someone said, there is a feat or spell that allows you to do other spells and not concentrate on 'concentration' spells, but I don't know exactly what it is. I love playing illusionists too, but my DM is pretty strick on it and until you get high level, like you said, for the permenant ones, they aren't always great. I've saved our butts a few times with illusions, but while you're stuck there concentrating, everyone else is doing something, it seems, more exciting. Cam
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-18-06, 05:38 PM	Here's my plan: Spell Line: Illusion Arts Illusion [Mind Effecting] Casting times are full round to 1 minute with 1 round/minute per level durations with the permenancy option open. Target is on creature OR 1 creature/2 levels for the higher level ones. Effect is 'As [image spell], but only targets a single creature. You may concentrate on the illusion to change it, otherwise it remains static. Spell Line: Illusory X Illusion [Shadow] Casting times 1 minute or greater with durations in hours to permanent. Creates an illusory X that is only 's' real before it breaks and dissolves into shadow. Possible concepts: Illusory Object, Weapon, Ally, Locale working on the prototypes as we speak.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-18-06, 09:19 PM	First attempts: Illusion Arts I Illusion (Phantasm)[Mind-effecting] Brd1 Sorc/Wiz1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 full round Range: Medium (100ft+10ft/caster level) Effect: A Visual figment that cannot extend beyond one ten foot cube, plus one ten foot cube per caster level. Target: One creature Duration: 1round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with) Spell Resistance: No This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. This illusion can only be seen by the target. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect by concentrating. If you fail a concentration check while doing so, the spell ends. Illusory Object Illusion (Shadow) Bard1, Sorc/Wiz1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 full round Range: 5ft (see text) Effect: A partially real illusory object Duration: Permanent (see text) Saving Throw: -- Spell Resistance: -- You call into being a object that appears in your hand or within 5 feet of you. The object’s volume can be no more than 1 cubic foot/caster level. This object is made of shadow and is only partially real. A spot check with a DC equal to 10 + caster level reveals its nature as a fraud, as does an appraise check DC 10. The created object is also very fragile, capable of only supporting 5lb/caster level before it is destroyed and evaporates into the ether. A successful attack on or with the object instantly destroys it. A successful dispel check also destroys an illusory object. Food created with this spell tastes normal, but is non-nourishing.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-27-06, 11:43 PM	bump.