Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrMrLordX 07-02-06, 08:55 PM	First off, I went hunting for questions like these or potential answers, so hopefully this isn't overly redundant. I have several rules questions about spell/feat combos I'm planning on using on an upcoming build. So far as I know, no DM/House Rules will be present in the campaign regarding to these combos, though I'm sure a few will be cooked up on the spot to deal with me. Without further ado . . . 1). Shugenja spell restrictions: Complete Divine has rules clearly written to handle domainless divine casters acquiring domains via prestige classes. All you do is tack on all the domain spells to their list of known spells and restrict them from using more than one spell "slot" per spell acquired from domains, which means you're only casting that spell once per day unless you do something crazy like take Hierophant levels and give up spell slots to use a domain spell as a spell-like ability. However, when gaining spells from outside domains as a Shugenja, what happens when you get domain spells that are already on the Shugenja list of a forbidden element? Example: Shugenja/Contemplative, School: Ineffable Mystery, Element: Earth, domain acquired: Luck. Luck gives you Mislead which is on the Shugenja Air list. According to the RAW (no errata for this that I can find), Shugenja are only forbidden from LEARNING spells from the opposing element, not forbidden from casting them. Since tacking on a domain via a prestige class doesn't count as learning a spell via the normal Shugenja spell learning methods, you should be able to pick up normally-forbidden spells by acquiring domains. Am I right? 2). Spontaneous Domain casting: There's a feat in Complete Divine (forget the name of it right now) that lets a divine caster burn up a prepared spell to cast a domain spell of the same level. How does this work for divine casters that cast spontaneously and don't prepare spells? Does it work at all? Example: Shugenja/Contemplative with the Luck domain. Would the above-mentioned feat allow this Shugenja/Contemplative cast the Miracle spell with all his level 9 slots? 3). Divine Metamagic combos: I've cooked up some Divine Metamagic spell combos that may or may not be original, but I'd like some feedback on whether or not these work. So far as I can tell, they would: a). Divine Persistent Creeping Cold, Greater (or Persistant Creeping Cold, Divine Persistent Creeping Cold): The spell, as described, has a fixed duration based on caster level and does 1d6 cold damage (fort save for half, roll once) per round that the spell has been in operation every round. Persistent Spell would raise the duration from 6 rounds (max) to 24 hours. That means on the last round of operation, the spell would do . . . hmm, 6 seconds per round right? That means 8640 rounds per day, so it would do 8640d6 damage on the last round, and that's after 8639 punishing rounds leading up to it. Yow! Due to the nature of the spells in question, Persistent and Divine Persistent Creeping Cold (the level 2 Druid spell) would work the same way, just with a lower save DC. Too bad Shugenjas don't get Creeping Cold on their spell list (grr). b). Divine Persistent Earthquake: The spell description indicates that, among other things, "The effect lasts for 1 round, during which time creatures on the ground can’t move or attack". Divine Persistent Spell changes the duration from 1 round to 24 hours. Is that 24 hours of being "unable to move or attack" if you get caught in the area of effect and can't fly? Can you jump out? Will creatures in the area of effect suffer the additional effects of the spell based on the terrain in which it is cast once per round? c). Divine Persistent Time Stop: 1d4 hours of apparent time becomes 24 hours of apparent time. Ha ha! *cough*. Ugh. Does this work (hint: think Trickery domain)? And can my character rest to regain spells during this 24-hour Time Stop? d). Divine Persistant Implosion: 4 rounds of operation requiring concentration becomes 24 hours of operation requiring occasional concentration (check the Detect Magic example under the Persisent Spell text if you don't believe me). Basically if you stop concentrating, Implosion will linger doing nothing until you resume concentration (just as with Detect Magic does in the listed example). Am I right? e). Divine Chain Spelled Implosion: Okay, let's say I apply Divine Chain Spell to Implosion instead. Implosion specifies that "You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell." Chain spell affects everything within 30 feet of the main target. Are all the secondary targets considered to have been targetted by Implosion? Example: 4 orcs in a small group, I select Orc A with Divine Chain Spelled Implosion, but all 4 Orcs are affected and must make saves. The Orc A fails his save, but Orcs B, C, and D survive with successful saves. Have Orcs B, C, and D been targetted by this spell? Can I choose any one of them as a target for Divine Chain Spelled Implosion next round? 4). Persistent Spell wordings: What exactly does "fixed range" mean in this context? 5). Anyspell/Anyspell, Greater: If Anyspell or Anyspell, Greater is cast from the Spell domain by a divine caster, is the resulting spell considered to be divine in nature? Example: Shugenja/Contemplative with the Spell domain uses Anyspell, Greater to cast Invisibility, Greater with Divine Persistent Spell applied to it. Does this work? 6). Divine Metamagic applied to Hierophant Spell-Like Abilities: The Hierophant Spell-Like Ability class feature's description says: "The spell normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level (or higher, if the hierophant chooses to permanently attach a metamagic feat to the spell chosen)." What happens if the metamagic feat that is attached to the chosen spell is a Divine Metamagic feat? Do you permanently lose a number of daily turning attempts equal to the number spent attaching the Divine Metamagic feat to the spell? Is this even possible? 7). Hierophant Spell-Like Ability used with domain spells: I'm sure this works, but I'm curious as to which (or how many) slots can be sacrificed to cast domain spells as a spell-like ability. Do you just burn up your domain slot for that level and that's it? Example: Cleric/Hierophant (domains: Destruction and Luck) chooses to burn up a level 9 slot at Hierophant level 1 to take Implosion as a spell-like ability. Does this burn up his level 9 domain slot, or does this take up and old level 9 slot he chooses? And how would this work for a Shugenja/Contemplative/Hierophant with the Destruction domain? How many times could this character burn up level 9 slots to learn Implosion as a spell-like ability (assume the Shugenja doesn't know Implosion from the level 9 Shugenja Fire list)? Furthermore, could the Spontaneous Domain Casting feat I mentioned in item 2 factor into this as well (either for the Cleric or the Shugenja)? I think that about covers it. Thanks! PS: If you're wondering how Divine Persistent Creeping Cold, Greater is even possible, Shugenja/Sacred Exorcist can pull it off. So can Cleric/Shugenja. Cleric/Druid could do Divine Persistent Creeping Cold/Creeping Cold, Greater, as could Druid/Sacred Exorcist (though how you get Dismissal or Dispel Evil as a Druid, I don't know. Contemplative?).
mvincent 07-02-06, 09:42 PM	c). Divine Persistent Time Stop: 1d4 hours of apparent time becomes 24 hours of apparent time. Ha ha! *cough*. Ugh. Does this work (hint: think Trickery domain)? From the 3.0 FAQ*: "You can’t make time stop persistent. (Its duration is effectively instantaneous for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat.)" * still applicable here since the wording on this has not changed significantly, and has not change at all in regard to what it clarifies.
DrMrLordX 07-03-06, 12:32 AM	From the 3.0 FAQ*: "You can’t make time stop persistent. (Its duration is effectively instantaneous for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat.)" * still applicable here since the wording on this has not changed significantly, and has not change at all in regard to what it clarifies. Oh, good. I wasn't planning on using that one anyway.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-03-06, 01:17 AM	There is an alternate class feature available for clerics in the PHB2 that allows you to forego spontaneously casting healing or hurtful spell, and instead spontaneously cast your domain spells. Your domain slots are then used to cast healing/hurtful spells in their place. Persistent spell is appliable only to spells with a personal range or fixed range. Fixed range means that the spell cannot have a variable range (such as being figured by your caster level). The feat description uses detect magic (which has a range fixed at 60ft.), and comprehend languages (which has a ranged of 'personal'). These are the only types of spells you can apply perstent spell to. Chained spells have a primary target (the original target of the spell), and secondary targets. All secondary targets must be within 30ft. of the primary, and are chosen by you (the caster) when you cast the spell. In the case of a chained Implosion, you are still choosing those affected as targets (be it primary or secondary), and they will not be able to be subsequently targetted on later turns during the spells' duration. One save = one target. Four saves = four targets. Anyspell and Greater Anyspell allow you to read and prepare a single arcane spell of the appropriate level. You then store that spell in the slot the anyspell was, and are free to cast it later. When cast, it works as though it was cast by a wizard of your cleric/divine caster's level, except Wisdom sets the DC. Since the spell works as though cast by a wizard, the spell itself is arcane. The spell used to prepare it was divine. Hierophant spell-like abilities may have metamagic feats permanently attached to them, and use a higher slot as appropriate to the metamagic feat. Until such time as there is a Hierophant version printed that takes into account divine metamagic, I would have a hard time allowing a resource other than a spell slot to be allocated to the ability, and a feat other than metamagic (divine metamagic, for example) to be permanently applied. This may vary based on your DM. Further, hierophant spell-like abilities require you to sacrifice a divine spell slot to them. While it can be argued that domain spells are divine spells and therefore take up divine spell slots, the rules instead delegate them to domain slots. If they wished to include them in regular divine spell slots, there would be text that one of each level of a cleric's spells for the day must be used for a domain spell. As there is not, domain slots do not equal divine spell slots. Lastly regarding your P.S. I don't know how it was explained to you that Creeping Cold and its greater counterpart can be made persistent, as they do not meet the requirements (not a personal nor a fixed range). Perhaps someone else can clarify this to us both?
DrMrLordX 07-03-06, 03:18 AM	Ah, so that's what fixed range means. Sneaky of them. That nips much of my munchkinism in the bud. So much for Divine Persistent Creeping Cold. Boo. As far as spontaneous domain casting goes, I wasn't so interested in the alternate rules in PHB II as I was in the Complete Divine feat. Ah, here it is: Domain Spontaneity Long story short, it lets you convert prepared divine spells into a domain spell from the domain you specified when you took the feat by burning up a spell slot of equal or higher level and one turning attempt. By the text, it would seem that the feat is useless to spontaneous casters like the Shugenja. The requirement for the feat is the ability to turn or rebuke undead which a Shugenja can acquire by taking the Sacred Exorcist prestige class (or by taking a Cleric level on the side if the DM would allow it). I'm still interested in knowing what happens when a divine caster tries to sacrifice a spell slot to learn a domain spell as a spell-like ability. Thanks for your responses in any case.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-03-06, 03:45 AM	I'm still interested in knowing what happens when a divine caster tries to sacrifice a spell slot to learn a domain spell as a spell-like ability. Spell-Like Ability: A hierophant who selects this special ability can use one of his divine spell slots to permanently prepare one of his divine spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The hierophant does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so, and a spell with a costly material component instead costs him 10 times that amount in XP. This goes back to the arguement that some can make that because a cleric prepares and casts divine spells, that domain spells must also be divine spells. Well, with the rules as they are, that's just not the case at the moment. A domain spell is a domain spell, and takes a domain spell slot to cast, not a divine spell slot. As such, you cannot use one of your divine spell slots to prepare a domain spell as a spell-like ability. Note that if the domain spell is also a divine spell (i.e. cure critical wounds is both a bard spell (arcane), cleric spell (divine), druid spell (also divine), and a healing domain spell (domain)) you may prepare it, using the slot that it appears with on your spell list.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-03-06, 03:56 AM	By the text, it would seem that the feat is useless to spontaneous casters like the Shugenja. The requirement for the feat is the ability to turn or rebuke undead which a Shugenja can acquire by taking the Sacred Exorcist prestige class (or by taking a Cleric level on the side if the DM would allow it). When a noncleric divine caster takes a level in a PrC that grants a prestige domain they gain one extra slot for each level of spell that they can cast, which must be used for the domain's spell. As this does not grant them the cleric's domain slot, but rather an additional spell slot for whatever they could cast I believe it would qualify to be used to permanently prepare a divine spell as a spell-like ability. However, because the domain spells are still domain, unless they appear on the caster's regular divine spell list (shugenja in this case), they will not be eligible choices to have as spell-like abilities. A shugenja in this instance would indeed benefit from the feat, as it would allow them to use their spell slots to more often cast their domain spells. (Edit: I just got a look at the full feat in question and it specifically states you can only convert prepared spells... which I know you said, but I missed.. it's late, yeah that's the ticket.. into domain spells. Looks like the shugenja is indeed out of luck.)
Endarire 07-03-06, 04:33 AM	Spontaneous casters that get domains via PrCs and such add all those spells to their class list, may choose them normally, and may cast them so long as they have slots and fulfill all normal requirements. -EE
SoldierOfFortune187 07-03-06, 04:43 AM	Spontaneous casters that get domains via PrCs and such add all those spells to their class list, may choose them normally, and may cast them so long as they have slots and fulfill all normal requirements. -EE Perhaps this was overturned or expanded on in Complete Divine which I do not have, but otherwise (in Defenders of the Faith for example) only arcane casters who gain a prestige domain add their domain spells to their spells known (either scribed into spellbooks for wizards, or added to spells known for bards and sorcerers). While this would make sense for a divine spontaneous caster, I simply don't personally own the documentation to support it.
DrMrLordX 07-03-06, 01:22 PM	This goes back to the arguement that some can make that because a cleric prepares and casts divine spells, that domain spells must also be divine spells. Well, with the rules as they are, that's just not the case at the moment. A domain spell is a domain spell, and takes a domain spell slot to cast, not a divine spell slot. As such, you cannot use one of your divine spell slots to prepare a domain spell as a spell-like ability. Note that if the domain spell is also a divine spell (i.e. cure critical wounds is both a bard spell (arcane), cleric spell (divine), druid spell (also divine), and a healing domain spell (domain)) you may prepare it, using the slot that it appears with on your spell list. Interesting. So if I have a Cleric with the Animal domain, does that mean I can take a Hierophant level, sacrifice a standard level 9 divine slot, and learn Shapechange as a spell-like ability? Shapechange does show up on the Druid list.
DrMrLordX 07-03-06, 01:29 PM	Okay, seems like we've got some disagreement on how spontaneous divine casters handle domain spells from domains acquired via PrCs. I just re-read Complete Divine page 20 and found the text on spontaneous Divine casters and how they're supposed to handle domain spells. Apparently they're able to learn the spell off the domain list and cast it freely as one of their available spell choices. Additional domains never actually increase the total number of spells known, it just increases the list of available spells they could learn. Interesting. This brings me back to one of my original questions, then, though I think I know the answer: Given the fact that a Shugenja (Earth)/Contemplative with the Trickery domain could select to learn Invisibility off the Trickery domain list, would he still be forbidden from learning it due to the fact that Invisibility also shows up on the Shugenja Air spell list?
SoldierOfFortune187 07-03-06, 11:04 PM	Interesting. So if I have a Cleric with the Animal domain, does that mean I can take a Hierophant level, sacrifice a standard level 9 divine slot, and learn Shapechange as a spell-like ability? Shapechange does show up on the Druid list. That final line in the section you quoted me on was poorly worded (as it was late). I used that cure spell as the example because it appears on many casters lists. If a domain spell you have also appears on your castable spells list, you may prepare it as a spell-like ability. Just because it appears as a normal spell for someone else's spell list does not qualify.
DrMrLordX 07-04-06, 12:32 AM	That final line in the section you quoted me on was poorly worded (as it was late). I used that cure spell as the example because it appears on many casters lists. If a domain spell you have also appears on your castable spells list, you may prepare it as a spell-like ability. Just because it appears as a normal spell for someone else's spell list does not qualify. Ah, okay. Makes sense.
DrMrLordX 07-04-06, 03:08 AM	Hey wait a sec, I just found this list here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=407298&page=1&pp=30 He's got Earthquake and other spells on the list of Persistable spells. Mrr? I know that isn't exactly official and jaered pretty much backs up the assertion that close/short/medium/long ranges do not count as "fixed" ranges on page 3 of the thread, but . . .
SoldierOfFortune187 07-04-06, 04:02 AM	Earthquake is not a legal choice for Persistant Spell (looking over my posts to see if I contradicted myself here... don't think so but might have missed something). It has a fixed duration of 1 round, so it does not qualify. Persistant spells require a fixed range, not a fixed duration. (Edits in italics, explained further down)
Llowyn 07-04-06, 04:33 AM	5). Anyspell/Anyspell, Greater: If Anyspell or Anyspell, Greater is cast from the Spell domain by a divine caster, is the resulting spell considered to be divine in nature? Example: Shugenja/Contemplative with the Spell domain uses Anyspell, Greater to cast Invisibility, Greater with Divine Persistent Spell applied to it. Does this work? Here's my opinion: The divine spell Anyspell (and Greater anyspell) takes 20 minutes to cast, and presumably is cast at the beginning of the day, after the divine caster has 'received' his or her spells. Casting this spell allows the caster to cast an arcane spell of a certain level later that day, and that spell should be treated as arcane. The Anyspell spell is divine, the arcane spell that it allows you to cast is arcane. So, no, you could not apply a divine feat to an arcane spell.
DrMrLordX 07-05-06, 02:46 AM	Earthquake is a legal choice for Persistant Spell (looking over my posts to see if I contradicted myself here... don't think so but might have missed something). It has a fixed duration of 1 round, so it qualifies. well yes, the duration is legal cuz it's 1 round rather than being instantaneous. The question is about the range. The range, at least according to some, isn't fixed. It has a caster-level based component.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-05-06, 02:51 AM	well yes, the duration is legal cuz it's 1 round rather than being instantaneous. The question is about the range. The range, at least according to some, isn't fixed. It has a caster-level based component. You caught me! It was late and I knew I shouldn't have tried for the one last post that night. Persistant needs a fixed range, not duration that I stubbornly confused in my fatigue. I do apologize. Making appropriate edits now. Again, I do apologize.
DrMrLordX 07-05-06, 11:10 PM	You caught me! It was late and I knew I shouldn't have tried for the one last post that night. Persistant needs a fixed range, not duration that I stubbornly confused in my fatigue. I do apologize. Making appropriate edits now. Again, I do apologize. It's okay. I'm just trying to pin down this whole Persistent thing. Without getting into overly intricate discussions about what "fixed" means, it seems to me that there should be more clarification from WotC about what can be affected by Persistent spell and what can't beyond the existing errata regarding touch-range effects. To a vile rules-manipulator like me, "fixed" can be twisted into all manner of interpretations. They really should have stated that short/medium/long/etc ranges disqualified the spell from being "fixed" rather than leaving it up for us to decide what's fixed and what isn't. We've got a guy on the Chracter Optimization board maintaining an FAQ that has spells like Earthquake, Blade Barrier, Wind Wall, and others on a list of spells that can be used with Persistent Spell (well, Divine Persistent Spell at least) which uh, doesn't seem right at least according to many. I know most any DM wouldn't want that spell Persistent anyway, even if it were clearly legal.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-05-06, 11:45 PM	90+% of all spells have a range of short/med/long. People on the CO board get confused because when they quote "FAQ" they interchange official FAQs on the wizards website with ones they manufacture themselves. Wizards needs to consider in their next round of errata/faqs to address the issue, since people seemed determined to exploit everything not spelled out in small one syllable words for them: "Fix mean one... ugh ugh... no change, ugh... no add, no take... one range, ugh! Range go up, range go down... then not fix, ugh!... Range stay same, range fix!" *cue monkey noises* The existing FAQ dating all the way back to 3.0 (which stands so long as nothing in 3.5 overturns it) negates "Touch" as a fixed range. Think of touch as 'contact,' not 'range 0ft.' All fixed ranges are expressed in a single, non-variable number, in feet.