CA and "Orb Of ____" spells - wrong school/subschool! [Archive] - Wizards Community

CA and "Orb Of ____" spells - wrong school/subschool! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pax
03-23-05, 03:51 PM It has recently come to my attention that all of the "Orb Of ___" spells, when they were reprinted in complete Arcane, were changed to the Conjuration school, and further, were put in the Creation subschool. Yet, this violates the SRD/PHB description of what the effects of conjuration (Creation) spells are. Grrr - someone was asleep at the wheel when they "updated" these spells to 3.5e. In a big way.

Specifically, consider what the SRD has to say about the Creation subschool emphasis mine):

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

So, there's a few problems that arise from that. "Object" and "creature" can neither of them be applied to an orb of Force, Fire, Cold, or Sound - though I will concede that is is appropriate for the (Lesser) Orb of Acid spell. Obviously none of them are "creatures" - they have no HP, for one.

As for being objects - well, I've never heard of an object that I couldn't (at least theoretically) pick up and hold. Yet, I wonder ... how do you hold "an orb of sound" ...? Or an "orb of fire" ... of "electricity" ... of "cold" ...?

This is an issue that, IMO, should be addressed in an errata. I personally think the Orb spells - excepting, perhaps, Acid - should have gone in the Evocation school. At the very least, the (Creation) subschool shouldbe dropped from the majority of them (again, all but Acid).

This is not an unsupported opinion, either. Take the Orb of Force - it was originally published as Force Orb, in Unapproachable East; the only difference, aside from school, is that the new version drops the 2hp-per-die "near miss" effect. And Force Orb is an Evocation [Force] spell.
green_yawgmoth
03-23-05, 04:06 PM This is why I use the ____ orb spells from T&B. WotC just wants to make Evocation completely useless, I guess.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Zherog
03-23-05, 04:15 PM Refresh my memory, Yawgy. I thought the various orb spells from T&B were in the Conjuration school.... :confused:
green_yawgmoth
03-23-05, 04:18 PM Refresh my memory, Yawgy. I thought the various orb spells from T&B were in the Conjuration school.... :confused:
Nope. They be Evocation. And oddly enough, they are Evocation [energy subtype], but have Save: Fortitude Partial (see text). You made the save for half damage and negate the effect of the orb.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Doomclown
03-23-05, 04:23 PM So in 3.5, you conjure an Orb, which flies forward and strikes your opponent. Having done so, it falls to the ground and rolls away out of sight.

Does that sound about right?
Pax
03-23-05, 04:38 PM So in 3.5, you conjure an Orb, which flies forward and strikes your opponent. Having done so, it falls to the ground and rolls away out of sight.

What if the target was two miles up? And what if there's a dragon napping directly below the battle, and the orb hits him ...? how much damage does it do?

That'd be based on the wight of the orb, right?

So ... how much dos "an orb of sound" weigh?
Wyrd Bearer
03-23-05, 04:43 PM So in 3.5, you conjure an Orb, which flies forward and strikes your opponent. Having done so, it falls to the ground and rolls away out of sight.

Does that sound about right?

Hmm, I'm curious about what the nonmagical orb of force looks like, specifically. Gravity, magneticism, and the blow from of a sledgehammer all lack any visible signs (note: with the hammer, the body crumpling is not the force of the blow, it is the result). Would it just be a 3 inch orb of shimmery nothingness rolling away after beaning the goblin?
mbfu3k
03-23-05, 06:17 PM Hmm, I'm curious about what the nonmagical orb of force looks like, specifically. Gravity, magneticism, and the blow from of a sledgehammer all lack any visible signs

Well, there's nothing that says a force effect is visible (in general). The only thing I can come up with is perhaps that the non-magical orb of force is actually a microscopic anti-blackhole (ie, nothing can enter the event horizon, instead of leave), with some strangeness on the (anti)gravitational field such that it does not extend past the event horizon....

Aw, screw it. They should be Evocation. :P

(Actually, if nothing can enter the event horizon, that would include light. Thus, the orb would reflect light perfectly, and be basically a mirrored sphere. Maybe that's what obdurium is?)
Ryll
03-24-05, 12:40 AM Nah, they should be conjuration.

Casters need someway to do damage that is not completely gimped by SR.
these are the tools for that. They are not overpowered as you are limited by spells/day and any fighter type that is half decent will outdamage the orb every round, once they get to the enemy.

These are also nice for any caster that has taken evocation as their prohibited school. They can at least do some damage.

As for how long they exist, and do they fall to the ground... just like acid arrow, they do nothing except to their intended target.
NinjaPenguin
03-24-05, 12:41 AM Well... Lesser Orb of X Creates a 2-inch in diameter orb of X. So Orb of Fire is a 2-inch sphere of fire plamsa that will quickly evaporate into the air like any plasma would. Likewise Electricity. Sound would radiate away from the point of impact, and Acid would... drip... Orb of Cold is a 2-inch ball of frozen something, so it stays until it melts. Orb of Force is... er... Force... That one is funky, but i like the idea of making balls of Force that stick around :P
Denizen Kane
03-24-05, 12:52 AM That'd be based on the wight of the orb, right?
Oh jeez...now I'm really confused. Shouldn't this be a necromancy spell then?
NinjaPenguin
03-24-05, 12:55 AM Why on earth would it be Necromancy? Its not dealing with Death, Negative Energy, pain, or fear... Its just making something that then... hits... someone...
Draco Obscura
03-24-05, 01:01 AM Because Pax made a typo and spelled "weight", "wight", and DK is either sarcasticly making fun of Pax, or is misreading the context.
NinjaPenguin
03-24-05, 02:05 AM Chalk another misread post up to the fact that the human mind sees what it expects to see unless its really looking hard :P Ah well, time to go to sleep so i dont feel so stupid :P
Aricandor
03-24-05, 02:46 AM I have to agree that these spells (with, perhaps, the exception of acid) should
1) Be moved to evocation
2) Allow SR

Spell resistance is rarely something that really "gimps" a caster. At worst, with an appropriate CR, the success rate of a spell is roughly 45%. Spell resistance is one thing that prevents casters from getting a 100% success with every single spell. And it is the thing that makes golems immune to magic (sort of infinite spell resistance), which they are not really with the Orb spells around. With a reliable spell for damaging golems (and, for that matter, objects, dragons and outsiders) casters will never ever be even remotely ineffective.
Pax
03-24-05, 11:07 AM See, I wouldn't mind leavign a few more than Acid in the Conjuration school. The problem I have is with anythign except MAYBE Acid having the Creation sub-school.

Do people realise that as written these spells are, ALL of them, not affected by Antimagic Field ...?!? Yep, that's right, you can (as written) fire an Orb of Force into an Antimagic Field, dealing up to 10d6[force] damage with no save and no SR - and because it's [force] damage, there'll be no such thing as DR or Energy Resistance, either.

Heck, I could see spreading them around a bit among the schools. Throw Orb of Cold into Necromancy (it's kinda thematic); Force and Sound should be Evocation and nothing but; leave Fire and Acid in Conjuration, and leave the (Creation) subschool tag in place for Acid. That, I could live with.

Well... Lesser Orb of X Creates a 2-inch in diameter orb of X. So Orb of Fire is a 2-inch sphere of fire plamsa that will quickly evaporate into the air like any plasma would. Likewise Electricity. Sound would radiate away from the point of impact, and Acid would... drip... Orb of Cold is a 2-inch ball of frozen something, so it stays until it melts. Orb of Force is... er... Force...

The thing is, Orb of Cold does not make "a ball of frozen something", it makes "an orb of cold". That's all, just COLD. There's nothing physical about it - and that's not an object or creature, so Conjuration(Creation) shouldn't be able to produce that effect.

Orb of Electricity? Electricity is not really an object or creature, either - so Conjuration(Creation) shouldn't be able to produce that effect.

Orb of Fire? It doesn't produce any superheated plasma or whatnot. The spell produces "an orb of fire" - and once again, that's not an object or creature, so Conjuration(Creation) shouldn't be able to produce that effect.

Orb of Sound? Sound isn't an object - it's not even a PARTICLE. It's a wave-form - pure energy. Obviously, that's not an object or creature, so Conjuration(Creation) shouldn't be able to produce that effect.
Nephlite
03-24-05, 12:27 PM Nah, they should be conjuration.

Casters need someway to do damage that is not completely gimped by SR.
these are the tools for that. They are not overpowered as you are limited by spells/day and any fighter type that is half decent will outdamage the orb every round, once they get to the enemy.

These are also nice for any caster that has taken evocation as their prohibited school. They can at least do some damage.

As for how long they exist, and do they fall to the ground... just like acid arrow, they do nothing except to their intended target.
I thought you already had Melf's Acid arrow no SR, and damage over time so Concentration is always affected some.
Pax
03-24-05, 02:30 PM Nah, they should be conjuration.
But, Acid aside, theyshould not be Creation. I think I've made my reasoning on that mroe than abundantly clear in this thread already.

Casters need someway to do damage that is not completely gimped by SR.
They have those ways. Melf's Acid Arrow (empowered, maximised, twinned, or what-have-you for higher level spells) serves this purpose admirably. Arcane Mastery and (Greater) Spell Penetration would almost assure penetrating normal balanced-for-your-level SR as well - if you're facing creatures with an SR greater than your lcaster level plus 14, then either you need to smack your GM around for powergaming, OR, you've got a seriously substandard character build. (Here's a hint: a Fighter(8)/Wizard(2) shouldn't whine if they can't beat their opponent's SR(21) ...!)

these are the tools for that. They are not overpowered as you are limited by spells/day and any fighter type that is half decent will outdamage the orb every round, once they get to the enemy.
The effects stated for the spells break the rules of the game. I have no game-breaking problem, even, with them generally not being subject to SR. I have a problem with their beig instantaneous conjuration(creation) spells. Antimagic field should not be so easy to get around.

These are also nice for any caster that has taken evocation as their prohibited school. They can at least do some damage.
First off, if a wizard wants to deal large quantities of direct damage, they have no place selecting Evocation as an opposed school. It's just that simple.

And secondly, evocation-opposed casters already have such options, in plenty, anyway: Chill Touch (1st), Melf's Acid Arrow (2nd), Vampiric Touch (3d), Disintegrate (6th), Horrid Wilting (8th). And that's only if you limit yourself to the PHB; with the Orb spells in the mix, obviously that limitation isn't inplace. So, let's see ...

CA: Whirling Blade (2nd), Blast of Flame (4th), Burning Blood (4th), Reciprocal Gyre (5th), Arc of Lightning (5th), Vitriolic Sphere (5th), Arrow of Bone (6th), Sword of Darkness (7th), Flensing (8th), Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (9th).

Gee, just with those two books, someone iwth Evocation as an opposed school has HORDES of damage-dealing spell options ... not counting a single Orb spell, and ONLY looking at spells that deal hit point damage (there're more that deal attribut damage, not to mention outright save-or-die spells).

As for how long they exist, and do they fall to the ground... just like acid arrow, they do nothing except to their intended target.
How much does a 3" orb of sound weigh? I rather need to know, to properly track encumbrance after I pick up a few souvenirs.

How much light does the 3" Orb of Fire cast? I should be able to carry one around in some sort of cage, and it gets dark in those dungeons ...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pax 03-23-05, 03:51 PM	It has recently come to my attention that all of the "Orb Of ___" spells, when they were reprinted in complete Arcane, were changed to the Conjuration school, and further, were put in the Creation subschool. Yet, this violates the SRD/PHB description of what the effects of conjuration (Creation) spells are. Grrr - someone was asleep at the wheel when they "updated" these spells to 3.5e. In a big way. Specifically, consider what the SRD has to say about the Creation subschool emphasis mine): Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence. So, there's a few problems that arise from that. "Object" and "creature" can neither of them be applied to an orb of Force, Fire, Cold, or Sound - though I will concede that is is appropriate for the (Lesser) Orb of Acid spell. Obviously none of them are "creatures" - they have no HP, for one. As for being objects - well, I've never heard of an object that I couldn't (at least theoretically) pick up and hold. Yet, I wonder ... how do you hold "an orb of sound" ...? Or an "orb of fire" ... of "electricity" ... of "cold" ...? This is an issue that, IMO, should be addressed in an errata. I personally think the Orb spells - excepting, perhaps, Acid - should have gone in the Evocation school. At the very least, the (Creation) subschool shouldbe dropped from the majority of them (again, all but Acid). This is not an unsupported opinion, either. Take the Orb of Force - it was originally published as Force Orb, in Unapproachable East; the only difference, aside from school, is that the new version drops the 2hp-per-die "near miss" effect. And Force Orb is an Evocation [Force] spell.
green_yawgmoth 03-23-05, 04:06 PM	This is why I use the ____ orb spells from T&B. WotC just wants to make Evocation completely useless, I guess. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Zherog 03-23-05, 04:15 PM	Refresh my memory, Yawgy. I thought the various orb spells from T&B were in the Conjuration school.... :confused:
green_yawgmoth 03-23-05, 04:18 PM	Refresh my memory, Yawgy. I thought the various orb spells from T&B were in the Conjuration school.... :confused: Nope. They be Evocation. And oddly enough, they are Evocation [energy subtype], but have Save: Fortitude Partial (see text). You made the save for half damage and negate the effect of the orb. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Doomclown 03-23-05, 04:23 PM	So in 3.5, you conjure an Orb, which flies forward and strikes your opponent. Having done so, it falls to the ground and rolls away out of sight. Does that sound about right?
Pax 03-23-05, 04:38 PM	So in 3.5, you conjure an Orb, which flies forward and strikes your opponent. Having done so, it falls to the ground and rolls away out of sight. What if the target was two miles up? And what if there's a dragon napping directly below the battle, and the orb hits him ...? how much damage does it do? That'd be based on the wight of the orb, right? So ... how much dos "an orb of sound" weigh?
Wyrd Bearer 03-23-05, 04:43 PM	So in 3.5, you conjure an Orb, which flies forward and strikes your opponent. Having done so, it falls to the ground and rolls away out of sight. Does that sound about right? Hmm, I'm curious about what the nonmagical orb of force looks like, specifically. Gravity, magneticism, and the blow from of a sledgehammer all lack any visible signs (note: with the hammer, the body crumpling is not the force of the blow, it is the result). Would it just be a 3 inch orb of shimmery nothingness rolling away after beaning the goblin?
mbfu3k 03-23-05, 06:17 PM	Hmm, I'm curious about what the nonmagical orb of force looks like, specifically. Gravity, magneticism, and the blow from of a sledgehammer all lack any visible signs Well, there's nothing that says a force effect is visible (in general). The only thing I can come up with is perhaps that the non-magical orb of force is actually a microscopic anti-blackhole (ie, nothing can enter the event horizon, instead of leave), with some strangeness on the (anti)gravitational field such that it does not extend past the event horizon.... Aw, screw it. They should be Evocation. :P (Actually, if nothing can enter the event horizon, that would include light. Thus, the orb would reflect light perfectly, and be basically a mirrored sphere. Maybe that's what obdurium is?)
Ryll 03-24-05, 12:40 AM	Nah, they should be conjuration. Casters need someway to do damage that is not completely gimped by SR. these are the tools for that. They are not overpowered as you are limited by spells/day and any fighter type that is half decent will outdamage the orb every round, once they get to the enemy. These are also nice for any caster that has taken evocation as their prohibited school. They can at least do some damage. As for how long they exist, and do they fall to the ground... just like acid arrow, they do nothing except to their intended target.
NinjaPenguin 03-24-05, 12:41 AM	Well... Lesser Orb of X Creates a 2-inch in diameter orb of X. So Orb of Fire is a 2-inch sphere of fire plamsa that will quickly evaporate into the air like any plasma would. Likewise Electricity. Sound would radiate away from the point of impact, and Acid would... drip... Orb of Cold is a 2-inch ball of frozen something, so it stays until it melts. Orb of Force is... er... Force... That one is funky, but i like the idea of making balls of Force that stick around :P
Denizen Kane 03-24-05, 12:52 AM	That'd be based on the wight of the orb, right? Oh jeez...now I'm really confused. Shouldn't this be a necromancy spell then?
NinjaPenguin 03-24-05, 12:55 AM	Why on earth would it be Necromancy? Its not dealing with Death, Negative Energy, pain, or fear... Its just making something that then... hits... someone...
Draco Obscura 03-24-05, 01:01 AM	Because Pax made a typo and spelled "weight", "wight", and DK is either sarcasticly making fun of Pax, or is misreading the context.
NinjaPenguin 03-24-05, 02:05 AM	Chalk another misread post up to the fact that the human mind sees what it expects to see unless its really looking hard :P Ah well, time to go to sleep so i dont feel so stupid :P
Aricandor 03-24-05, 02:46 AM	I have to agree that these spells (with, perhaps, the exception of acid) should 1) Be moved to evocation 2) Allow SR Spell resistance is rarely something that really "gimps" a caster. At worst, with an appropriate CR, the success rate of a spell is roughly 45%. Spell resistance is one thing that prevents casters from getting a 100% success with every single spell. And it is the thing that makes golems immune to magic (sort of infinite spell resistance), which they are not really with the Orb spells around. With a reliable spell for damaging golems (and, for that matter, objects, dragons and outsiders) casters will never ever be even remotely ineffective.
Pax 03-24-05, 11:07 AM	See, I wouldn't mind leavign a few more than Acid in the Conjuration school. The problem I have is with anythign except MAYBE Acid having the Creation sub-school. Do people realise that as written these spells are, ALL of them, not affected by Antimagic Field ...?!? Yep, that's right, you can (as written) fire an Orb of Force into an Antimagic Field, dealing up to 10d6[force] damage with no save and no SR - and because it's [force] damage, there'll be no such thing as DR or Energy Resistance, either. Heck, I could see spreading them around a bit among the schools. Throw Orb of Cold into Necromancy (it's kinda thematic); Force and Sound should be Evocation and nothing but; leave Fire and Acid in Conjuration, and leave the (Creation) subschool tag in place for Acid. That, I could live with. Well... Lesser Orb of X Creates a 2-inch in diameter orb of X. So Orb of Fire is a 2-inch sphere of fire plamsa that will quickly evaporate into the air like any plasma would. Likewise Electricity. Sound would radiate away from the point of impact, and Acid would... drip... Orb of Cold is a 2-inch ball of frozen something, so it stays until it melts. Orb of Force is... er... Force... The thing is, Orb of Cold does not make "a ball of frozen something", it makes "an orb of cold". That's all, just COLD. There's nothing physical about it - and that's not an object or creature, so Conjuration(Creation) shouldn't be able to produce that effect. Orb of Electricity? Electricity is not really an object or creature, either - so Conjuration(Creation) shouldn't be able to produce that effect. Orb of Fire? It doesn't produce any superheated plasma or whatnot. The spell produces "an orb of fire" - and once again, that's not an object or creature, so Conjuration(Creation) shouldn't be able to produce that effect. Orb of Sound? Sound isn't an object - it's not even a PARTICLE. It's a wave-form - pure energy. Obviously, that's not an object or creature, so Conjuration(Creation) shouldn't be able to produce that effect.
Nephlite 03-24-05, 12:27 PM	Nah, they should be conjuration. Casters need someway to do damage that is not completely gimped by SR. these are the tools for that. They are not overpowered as you are limited by spells/day and any fighter type that is half decent will outdamage the orb every round, once they get to the enemy. These are also nice for any caster that has taken evocation as their prohibited school. They can at least do some damage. As for how long they exist, and do they fall to the ground... just like acid arrow, they do nothing except to their intended target. I thought you already had Melf's Acid arrow no SR, and damage over time so Concentration is always affected some.
Pax 03-24-05, 02:30 PM	Nah, they should be conjuration. But, Acid aside, theyshould not be Creation. I think I've made my reasoning on that mroe than abundantly clear in this thread already. Casters need someway to do damage that is not completely gimped by SR. They have those ways. Melf's Acid Arrow (empowered, maximised, twinned, or what-have-you for higher level spells) serves this purpose admirably. Arcane Mastery and (Greater) Spell Penetration would almost assure penetrating normal balanced-for-your-level SR as well - if you're facing creatures with an SR greater than your lcaster level plus 14, then either you need to smack your GM around for powergaming, OR, you've got a seriously substandard character build. (Here's a hint: a Fighter(8)/Wizard(2) shouldn't whine if they can't beat their opponent's SR(21) ...!) these are the tools for that. They are not overpowered as you are limited by spells/day and any fighter type that is half decent will outdamage the orb every round, once they get to the enemy. The effects stated for the spells break the rules of the game. I have no game-breaking problem, even, with them generally not being subject to SR. I have a problem with their beig instantaneous conjuration(creation) spells. Antimagic field should not be so easy to get around. These are also nice for any caster that has taken evocation as their prohibited school. They can at least do some damage. First off, if a wizard wants to deal large quantities of direct damage, they have no place selecting Evocation as an opposed school. It's just that simple. And secondly, evocation-opposed casters already have such options, in plenty, anyway: Chill Touch (1st), Melf's Acid Arrow (2nd), Vampiric Touch (3d), Disintegrate (6th), Horrid Wilting (8th). And that's only if you limit yourself to the PHB; with the Orb spells in the mix, obviously that limitation isn't inplace. So, let's see ... CA: Whirling Blade (2nd), Blast of Flame (4th), Burning Blood (4th), Reciprocal Gyre (5th), Arc of Lightning (5th), Vitriolic Sphere (5th), Arrow of Bone (6th), Sword of Darkness (7th), Flensing (8th), Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (9th). Gee, just with those two books, someone iwth Evocation as an opposed school has HORDES of damage-dealing spell options ... not counting a single Orb spell, and ONLY looking at spells that deal hit point damage (there're more that deal attribut damage, not to mention outright save-or-die spells). As for how long they exist, and do they fall to the ground... just like acid arrow, they do nothing except to their intended target. How much does a 3" orb of sound weigh? I rather need to know, to properly track encumbrance after I pick up a few souvenirs. How much light does the 3" Orb of Fire cast? I should be able to carry one around in some sort of cage, and it gets dark in those dungeons ...