Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kSquared 03-11-05, 02:32 PM	Has anyone had a chance to look at the reciprocal gyre spell in Complete Arcane? It seems extraordinarily powerful for a 5th level spell. Basically, you target a creature within medium range, and it takes 1d6 (max 25d6) damage for every spell level of each magical effect it's being specifically targeted by. The subject takes half damage on a successful Will save, and in addition, if it fails a subsequent Fortitude save, it gets dazed for 1d6 rounds. Example: The creature has active invisibility (2nd level), haste (3rd level), fly (3rd level), stoneskin (4th level), and mage armor (1st level) effects. It takes (2 + 3 + 3 + 4 + 1) 13d6 damage, half on a successful Will save. If it fails a subsequent Fortitude save, it's also dazed for 1d6 rounds. Maybe it's just me, but doesn't that sound pretty darn powerful? This is an instant mage-killer at higher levels thanks to the Will save for half instead of negating.
IMarvinTPA 03-11-05, 03:20 PM	It's all about the Spell Turning spell. Since you need that to protect yourself from Dispel Magic, it would also protect you from this. For bonus fun for the targets that don't have spell turning, add a few extra spells first. When you first get it, your foes probably won't have spell turning and only a few spells, so it will be ballanced with the normal limit. At higher levels, you risk hitting yourself with it if your foes have spell turning up, and so you risk taking lots of damage because of your own efforts. So the higher cap can bite you, or be a bonus. Either way, its risky. IMarv
kSquared 03-11-05, 04:12 PM	Even more interesting is that the spell's effects don't seem to exclude harmful spells. Thus, a slow spell on the target is just as bad for them as a haste spell, which raises the interesting possibility of "juicing up" your targets before you smithereen them with a reciprocal gyre.
kliate 03-11-05, 05:07 PM	I like! Lets see... "Charm Person." followed by "Now let me cast these helpful spells on you...." (25 levels of ability boosts and other buffs (excluding Owl's Wisdom and Bear's Endurance!) later...) "Reciprocal Gyre. Die!" That'll probably be the easiest 25d6 I'll do for a while....
IceFractal 03-11-05, 05:23 PM	It also could lead to rather stupendous abuse if you combine it with odd spells. For instance, research this spell: Blazing Mark Level: Sor/Wiz 1 (or thereabouts) Components: V,S Casting Time: 1 action Range: Medium Target: 1 creature Duration 1 minute/level Save: Will partial SR: Yes This spell creates a blazing mark somewhere on the target's person. If the save succeeds, the mark only glows as brightly as a torch, and can be covered with normal clothing. Otherwise, the mark flares up, illuminating the person's whole body and being visible even through solid barriers to someone who can see magic effects (anything that would block Detect Magic blocks this, such as a sheet of lead). This spell is often used to mark escaping prisoners and make them easier to find. So there you are, not a powerful spell ... or is it? Heighten a bunch of these and cast them on someone, then cast Reciprocal Gyre. Boom, instant damage. And there's really nothing they can do about it, short of casting Dispel Magic on themselves every round.
Vatras 03-11-05, 05:25 PM	Its a nice spell, especially to get the people running around in the magic equivalent of half a meter of steel. On the other hand, it does absolutely zero to the unbuffed.
green_yawgmoth 03-11-05, 05:31 PM	I like! Lets see... "Charm Person." followed by "Now let me cast these helpful spells on you...." (25 levels of ability boosts and other buffs (excluding Owl's Wisdom and Bear's Endurance!) later...) "Reciprocal Gyre. Die!" That'll probably be the easiest 25d6 I'll do for a while.... Okay, so you're spending 31 spell levels of spells to do 25d6 damage, will save for half? OR.... you could just cast Horrid Wilting and do 25d8 damage, fort half in one round. Hmmm... which sounds better to you? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
kSquared 03-11-05, 05:36 PM	Okay, so you're spending 31 spell levels of spells to do 25d6 damage, will save for half? OR.... you could just cast Horrid Wilting and do 25d8 damage, fort half in one round. Hmmm... which sounds better to you? I think you're missing the point. Have you ever heard of an unbuffed BBEG? They're almost always decked out with a few potions of greater heroism, blur, displacement, et cetera. The hard work of casting spells on them is already done for you!
green_yawgmoth 03-11-05, 05:47 PM	I think you're missing the point. Have you ever heard of an unbuffed BBEG? They're almost always decked out with a few potions of greater heroism, blur, displacement, et cetera. The hard work of casting spells on them is already done for you! No, he said "Let me cast these spells on you." That means he planned on casting a bunch of spells on this person before the gyre. But yes, it would be a dandy spell against a BBEG. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Lina_Inverse 03-11-05, 05:57 PM	13d6 is pathetic.it relys entirely on them being a cleric.and since the game is built to battle monsters,NONE of which have buffs in there stat block. this is clearly not worth preping.
smrtgmp 03-11-05, 07:04 PM	I thought it looked great at first glance, but after further concideration I'm not as impressed. The only enemies that are likely to have several levels of protective spells up are spell casters. Since all spellcasters have good will saves, chances are you will only be doing 1/2 damage. Given that you only have to make the fort save if you fail the will save, the secondary effects probably won't come into play in most situations. I still think its a good spell, but I dont concider it to be broken.
beaver1024 03-11-05, 07:04 PM	13d6 is pathetic.it relys entirely on them being a cleric.and since the game is built to battle monsters,NONE of which have buffs in there stat block. this is clearly not worth preping. Of course clerics have good fort and will saves so you'll probably no be able to effect the intended target of the spell to any significant extent anyway. If it can't even effect its intended target very well it's really a crappy spell. This pretty much follows much of the pattern in Complete Arcane.
Vatras 03-11-05, 09:27 PM	The spell does have several very strong points: - It is an Abjuration, no subtypes, so no one is immune (death & mindaffecting are bad). - No attack roll necessary, no chance to miss. - It does not allow a save to negate damage, its half damage. It is also not of any energy type, so there is no protection to reduce the damage. - It is 5th level. It not being too high makes it subject to spell manipulation like Chain Spell, for which it does fully qualify (single target, has a range). So while it probably will not be among a sorcerers spells known, a wizard will probably get it, when he can afford it. Especially for spellcasting BBEGs like cleric/druid types and many outsiders (it is unimportant where the spell levels came from...SLA or spell does not matter for this one) this spell can be a pain. I imagine that a scroll or two of it would be a nice surprise now and then.
smrtgmp 03-11-05, 10:37 PM	(death & mindaffecting are bad). I'm so sick of seeing this. Many seem to think that mind-affecting spells are weak because they dont work on everything. Who cares if they dont work on undead or plants or constructs. They work just fine on everything else, and you can then use your new slaves to beat the crap out of any undead, plant, or construct that crosses your path. And yes, Mindblank will protect you from mind-affecting spells. Again, who cares? Most enemies dont have access to it, and even if they do it can be dispelled. If you think mind-affecting effects are bad, then you have no idea how truly powerful an enchanter (or telepath) can be.
beaver1024 03-12-05, 07:00 AM	I'm so sick of seeing this. Many seem to think that mind-affecting spells are weak because they dont work on everything. Who cares if they dont work on udead or plants or constructs. They work just fine on everything else, and you can then use your new slaves to beat the crap out of any undead, plant, or construct that crosses your path. And yes, Mindblank will protect you from mind-affecting spells. Again, who cares? Most enemies dont have access to it, and even if they do it can be dispelled. If you think mind-affecting effects are bad, then you have no idea how truly powerful an enchanter (or telepath) can be. Immunities are just part of the problem. Even if a victim isn't immune, there is no gurantee of success. Saves (nerfed because of spell focus), sr and nerfed spells (eg Sleep, Emotion, Eyebite, Hold etc etc) makes mind affecting effects very weak. The presence of Mind Blank, Protection from X, Spell Immunities etc etc just compounds the problem. There also seem to be a lot of race/class/feats abilities that defeat/make the vicitim highly resistant against mind affecting effects (e.g, slippery mind, save bonuses against mind affecting effects, divine aura, mageslayer etc etc). The weakness of mind affecting effects is one of the reason why Enchantment school is so easy to give up in specialisation.
Vatras 03-12-05, 07:18 AM	@smrtgmp: That was not meant to say that spell types are weak, only that they are unreliable. Any spell without a descriptor can due to monster immunities, class abilities, protective spells & powers, immunities from templates and so on be said to have an advantage. And that was my point here: Reciprocal Gyre is unaffected by such problems. The reason for so many inhibitors around to mind-affecting and death is that both types have the most powerful effects (save or die, save or be my puppet).
Lord_Anthrax 03-12-05, 12:02 PM	Yes, Clerics and Wizards have good Will saves. But what about their buffed-up Fighter buddy? Or that Rogue that's with them? And any Cleric/Wizard can roll a 1, and if they do, they have to make a Fort save or basically be crippled for 1d6 rounds. Not much trouble for a Cleric, but friend Wizard? This is a great spell for BBEG's to smack PC's with, IMO. Non-elemental damage that's not easily avoided(only a few Classes and Prestige Classes have the "Evasion" ability for Fort and Will saves), plus the chance to knock them stupid for a few rounds.
gamerdork 03-12-05, 12:49 PM	And my DM let me find a scroll, so my Wizard can use it. Haven't yet. But we seem to battle more than a fair share of spell-user types, so I'm sure I'll get a chance soon. Hmmm, perhaps unluck first then a reciprocal gyre... MWUA-HA-HA-H---<cough><HACK>.. AHEM. Sorry, frog in my throat. - Corey
Zitchas 03-12-05, 01:14 PM	Hmmm..... Thank you for precipitating a rather nasty idea for me and my friend to do on our tag-teaming efforts... *evil grin*
smrtgmp 03-12-05, 02:23 PM	That was not meant to say that spell types are weak, only that they are unreliable.IMO they are actually quite reliable when used properly. The real key to enchantment (telepathy) spells (powers) is forthought. While your companions are shopping for equipment in town, you should be perusing local taverns/bars/docks etc for candidates for cham/domination. Build yourself a possey. If you have a good diplomacy check it works even better. Use charm to make people friendly, then diplomacy them to helpful. Then, as long as you treat them well, they will still be helpful when the spell ends/gets dispelled. Any spell without a descriptor can due to monster immunities, class abilities, protective spells & powers, immunities from templates and so on be said to have an advantage. And that was my point here: Reciprocal Gyre is unaffected by such problems. The reason for so many inhibitors around to mind-affecting and death is that both types have the most powerful effects (save or die, save or be my puppet).I understand what you're saying, and I do agree with you that enchantment spells generally arent the best to use in a fight (with a few notatble exceptions, like Confusion). Sorry I got all huffy. Its just that I keep seeing people suggest that Enchantment is something of an auto dump school, and I disagree. I guess it really depends on what type of campaign you're playing in. If I'm your DM, you will get ample opportunities to use Enchantment spells. If you're trudging through the Worlds Largest Dungeon, than you could probably give them up without much worry. Immunities are just part of the problem. Even if a victim isn't immune, there is no gurantee of success.There is no guarantee for success with save or die spells. Are they weak as well? Saves (nerfed because of spell focus), sr and nerfed spells (eg Sleep, Emotion, Eyebite, Hold etc etc) makes mind affecting effects very weak.Tell that to my army of giants. Oh, did you see my new pet the Tarrasque? The presence of Mind Blank, Protection from X, Spell Immunities...only come into play a fraction of the time. Most creatures (especially the ones with low will saves) dont have access to protective magics. See my army of giants above. The weakness of mind affecting effects is one of the reason why Enchantment school is so easy to give up in specialisation.OK, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to enchantment spells (otherwise you wouldnt call them weak). As far as I'm concerned, Evocation is the only school that is easy to dump without much thought. edit sorry to derail this thread. I'll start a different one to continue this conversation so as to not futher hijack K's thread. Again, sorry. :) 2nd edit If you want to continue the conversation on enchantment spells, go here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=393885).
green_yawgmoth 03-12-05, 06:51 PM	Evocation is the only school that is easy to dump without much thought. Hey, I don't abuse your favored school, you don't abuse mine. :mad: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
d_nychus 03-12-05, 07:27 PM	Don't take it hard, green. Everyone who plays spellcasters has their favored and least favored school. Mine, personally, is abjurations, because I'm usually a party defender. Recipricol gyre is definately on my wish list for the mystic theurge I'm playing when I have access to it. It just so happens you two are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but both of you have raised valid points about the use of your favored schools.
smrtgmp 03-12-05, 09:18 PM	Hey, I don't abuse your favored school, you don't abuse mine. :mad:Dont get me wrong. I used to love evocation. I just dont like what has been done to it in the current edition (hence the thread I started about direct damage a little while back). All it really has left are the force spells and contingency. Now that conjuration has force spells and craft contingent spell has been updated for 3.5, evocation has even less to offer. Again, dont get me wrong. I think thats a crime, but thats how it is. :(
green_yawgmoth 03-12-05, 10:39 PM	Yeah, I agree that Evocation has been taken out back, raped, and then robbed. My reply was meant as sort of a joke-ish thing. Honestly, I think that Evocation should have about 75% of the damage-dealing spells, with necro having a good 15-20% of the remainder. Conjuration should be about making things, not dealing damage. That's why when/if I DM, I use the UA variant of "energy spells ignore SR", and just remove the conj. spells that imitate/copy evoc. spells (like the orbs in CA). http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Teltharis 03-12-05, 11:48 PM	Personally I love Gyre, but thats because my wizard is a huge fan of mageduels. Gyre rocks. As does duelward.
smrtgmp 03-12-05, 11:48 PM	I use that UA varient too.
The Simbul 03-13-05, 03:05 AM	It takes (2 + 3 + 3 + 4 + 1) 13d6 damage, half on a successful Will save. If it fails a subsequent Fortitude save, it's also dazed for 1d6 rounds. If the creature has a successful Will save then they dont have to make a Fort save against the daze effect.
Gold Katana 03-13-05, 10:49 AM	Just got to unleash this spell and I LOVE IT. It will not get used often but it will make my sorceror player think twice. He's been walking around for several levels with Permanency cast on all his available spells. It can really be a downer to have an invisible, arcane sighted, see magic/invisible, flying, etc etc PC ruining the entire campaign. And it's not just me - the other players had a slight smirk on their faces when he was hit by the spell. Followed immediately by Reaving Dispel - bwah hah hah!
smrtgmp 03-13-05, 02:11 PM	If he had those spells as permanent effects its the DMs fault. Permanency comes with a specific list of spells it will affect for a reason. BTW-Permanent Invisibility doesnt exactly seem like a good expenditure of XP, given that you will become visible the first time you attack anything. Not exactly permanent.
Nyat 03-13-05, 02:43 PM	You cant cast permenancied invisibiliy on anything but an object or area anyways, check the 3.5 PHB.
Gold Katana 03-13-05, 08:56 PM	Ah, yes. Smrtgmp and nyat, thanks for dwelling on the typo. Should have read "see invisible" and that only once. My fingers were certainly errant on that dashed off post! Unfortunately, you seem to have missed the intent of the post, only to dwell on a minutia. The point was the sorceror had cast Permanency on himself with nearly every spell available on the list. This was a PITA. RG is a great come-back for that situation.
smrtgmp 03-14-05, 07:05 PM	Thats not a typo. A typo would be "dee invisibility." How the hell were we supposed to know you meant "see invisibility" when all you said was "invisibility?" Furthermore, if the sorcerer has a permanent fly spell in effect, the DM allowed him to do so, as fly is not on the list of spells that are subject to permanecy.
Gold Katana 03-14-05, 09:02 PM	Gosh, thanks. It's so nice to have such smart people like you around to correct us morons. How do you find the time?
Nyat 03-14-05, 09:05 PM	You made an error which we tried to correct, you responded by belittling us. And then Smrtgmp responded by letting you know that we aren't psychic which you respond to in a hostile manner. Please, we weren't trying to insult you by saying permenancy doesnt work on invising people.
Gold Katana 03-14-05, 09:16 PM	I'm just glad there's someone out there to pick apart everything I write rather than look at the obvious intent of my post. Especially after I tried to restate what I intended. Obviously, it is more important to critique others rather than actually responding to the original post. And I do need it pointed out that I really didn't commit a typo; that would be like typing Thats when I meant That's, permanecy instead of permanency, and putting word quotes after the period rather than before. But I am confident with such amiable support I will continue to improve.
Nyat 03-14-05, 09:41 PM	You are being overly hostile, we were merely trying to point out a what appeared to be incorrect usage of a spell, if that offends you then you are way to uptight. And you said "Ah, yes. Smrtgmp and nyat, thanks for dwelling on the typo." at which point Smrtgmp pointed out that it was not a typo, which you have just confirmed, so there was really no reason to go at Smrtgmp's throat for that admitted mistake.
Shatteredtower 03-14-05, 09:43 PM	Let's get back to the subject at hand, shall we? On the one hand, this spell punishes those spellcasters that prepare themselves with as many defensive/buff spells as possible. For those who find cleric archers and other clerics of their combat-tanking ilk a bother, this thing can be pretty handy, but it's unlikely to flatten your foe, barring a very bad roll on both saving throws (the damage is less critical than the dazing in a case like this). Wizards don't have quite so many hit points to spare, but even they should do all right on a (likely) successful first save. The ones who have the most to fear are rogues who have any sort of spell effect active on them -- not because they'll likely take much damage, but because it hurts to spend several rounds dazed. By itself, that's not a disaster, so it seems a reasonable result. On the other hand, it backfires against spell turning, which in turn adds makes the latter spell a bit more useful. Its use means that some people may reconsider the first round dispel or disjunction in favour of using an enemy's defenses against him or her, which isn't a bad thing. I'm not convinced the spell offers enough reason to discourage such tactics, but since reciprocal gyre's results are more certain than those of dispel magic and it's less likely to cut into the profits than a disjunction, I can see why some would disagree.
Gold Katana 03-14-05, 10:07 PM	In our situation, the Sorc. had more than 25 spell levels on him, so he had the full package coming at him. He did make his save but still ended up taking 40-50 hp damage. And that can really put the hurt on a 15th level Sorceror!
Nyat 03-14-05, 10:11 PM	Ouch, but thats what you get for having so many buffs without the proper protection (that sounds weird). I bet he'll be begging for a spellblade thats set to Reciprocal Gyre now :P (For those of you who dont know, a spellblade is a weapon enhancement that is set to a specific targeted spell and anytime that spell is targeted at you you can redirect it as a free action.)
Shatteredtower 03-14-05, 11:40 PM	Next question: would it be worth it to maximize and empower this spell? If you expect scry and die invasions, possibly, though odds are good that you're never going to be able to hit enough enemies fast enough to make it worth your trouble. Still 150 + 0.5(25d6) hp of damage isn't too sloppy for a 9th level spell slot when there's also that possibilty of dazing your foe from between 6 and 9 rounds even if damage turns out to be much lower (say, 6 hp worth, save for half). That uncertainty makes it something you'll only want to use when it seems like it will hit hardest, which can't always be assumed. It would be much more devastating if someone ever created a mass version, though, and possibly too good even in an 8th or 9th level slot. (7th level with the option to empower it would be the nightmare of any high level scry-teleporters without spell turning or properly prepared rings of counterspells available.)
HomebrewedMonster 03-15-05, 01:18 AM	I think you're missing the point. Have you ever heard of an unbuffed BBEG? They're almost always decked out with a few potions of greater heroism, blur, displacement, et cetera. The hard work of casting spells on them is already done for you! Meh, its a situational spell.