Calculating spell dc's as monsters do. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Calculating spell dc's as monsters do. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ertai Planeswalker
12-18-05, 09:31 AM I was wondering why spellcasting classes use 10 + Spell level + Ability Modifier to calculate the save DC, while all monsters use 10 + 1/2 HD (Or maybe 1/2 casterlevel in case of classes) + Ability modifier. Is it broken to use the monster DC rule for spellcasters? It does mean that all spells you cast have the same DC regardless of level, but higher level spells are still more powerfull than lower level spells...
RaspK FOG
12-18-05, 10:05 AM You obviously did not notice that the rules you make mention of do not relate to the casting of spells but to the use of spell-like abilities; the former have a save DC of 10 + spell level + requisite ability modifier, while the latter use the formula: 10 + 1/2 HD + Charisma modifier. Check it out. ;)
runestar
12-18-05, 11:10 AM Spells and SLAs all use the same formula - 10+spell lv+spellcasting mod(cha for SLAs.
10+1/2HD+mod pertains only to supernatural abilities, which operates under different rules from spells/SLAs(such as not being subject to sr etc).
Ertai Planeswalker
12-18-05, 03:48 PM You obviously did not notice that the rules you make mention of do not relate to the casting of spells but to the use of spell-like abilities; the former have a save DC of 10 + spell level + requisite ability modifier, while the latter use the formula: 10 + 1/2 HD + Charisma modifier. Check it out. ;)

Oh.

But what is the difference between them except the names?
cwslyclgh
12-18-05, 04:31 PM actually your example is incorrect in the first place, spell-like abiltiies have thier DC's calculated the same as a spell using charisma as the monsters casting ability, there for the save DC is 10+spell level+monsters charisma modifier. the formula you refer to 10+1/2HD+modifier (variable, usually charisma for supernatural abilieits that are obviously "magical" in nature) is used for supernatural and extraordinary abilities that require a save.

Runestar is correct in his post above.
Nom
12-18-05, 09:23 PM But what is the difference between them except the names?Spells are spells. Spell-like abilities are spells cast using the "special ability" mechanic rather than the full spell memorisation and casting mechanic. They require actions (normally standard actions) to cast, provoke AoOs as for spells, and can be dispelled as for spells.

Su abilities cover a wide variety of abilities, many of which are automatic (eg Stench, Fear) or occur as part of some other ability (poison, energy drain). Su abilities are affected by anti-magic, but not by dispel magic or other spell-related effects.
RaspK FOG
12-19-05, 10:00 PM Forgive my error, I misstyped that the aforementioned abilities are spell-like, not supernatural... :blush:

Let us reiterate:
Spells are cast with a DC of 10 + spell level + relevant ability bonus, require a minimum ability score of 10 + spell level to cast, may include a material, verbal, somatic, or XP component and/or a focus; they may be countered, dispelled, and supressed by antimagic.
Spell-like abilities have a DC of 10 + spell level + Charisma bonus, require a minimum Charisma score of 10 + spell level, but have no need for components or foci, yet they can be countered, dispelled, or suppressed in antimagic.
Supernatural abilities have a DC of 10 + ½ HD + Charisma modifier, need no components, cannot be countered or dispelled, but are supressed in antimagic.
Natural spell-casting works like spell-casting (usually based on Charisma) but does not need any components; you still must use any foci needed.
runestar
12-19-05, 10:18 PM SLAs cannot be countered, nor can they be used to counter. The notable exception is the dispel magic SLA. The wotc article suggests that SLAs normally subject to dispelling can be countered, though how accurate that is is really anyone's guess. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ertai Planeswalker 12-18-05, 09:31 AM	I was wondering why spellcasting classes use 10 + Spell level + Ability Modifier to calculate the save DC, while all monsters use 10 + 1/2 HD (Or maybe 1/2 casterlevel in case of classes) + Ability modifier. Is it broken to use the monster DC rule for spellcasters? It does mean that all spells you cast have the same DC regardless of level, but higher level spells are still more powerfull than lower level spells...
RaspK FOG 12-18-05, 10:05 AM	You obviously did not notice that the rules you make mention of do not relate to the casting of spells but to the use of spell-like abilities; the former have a save DC of 10 + spell level + requisite ability modifier, while the latter use the formula: 10 + 1/2 HD + Charisma modifier. Check it out. ;)
runestar 12-18-05, 11:10 AM	Spells and SLAs all use the same formula - 10+spell lv+spellcasting mod(cha for SLAs. 10+1/2HD+mod pertains only to supernatural abilities, which operates under different rules from spells/SLAs(such as not being subject to sr etc).
Ertai Planeswalker 12-18-05, 03:48 PM	You obviously did not notice that the rules you make mention of do not relate to the casting of spells but to the use of spell-like abilities; the former have a save DC of 10 + spell level + requisite ability modifier, while the latter use the formula: 10 + 1/2 HD + Charisma modifier. Check it out. ;) Oh. But what is the difference between them except the names?
cwslyclgh 12-18-05, 04:31 PM	actually your example is incorrect in the first place, spell-like abiltiies have thier DC's calculated the same as a spell using charisma as the monsters casting ability, there for the save DC is 10+spell level+monsters charisma modifier. the formula you refer to 10+1/2HD+modifier (variable, usually charisma for supernatural abilieits that are obviously "magical" in nature) is used for supernatural and extraordinary abilities that require a save. Runestar is correct in his post above.
Nom 12-18-05, 09:23 PM	But what is the difference between them except the names?Spells are spells. Spell-like abilities are spells cast using the "special ability" mechanic rather than the full spell memorisation and casting mechanic. They require actions (normally standard actions) to cast, provoke AoOs as for spells, and can be dispelled as for spells. Su abilities cover a wide variety of abilities, many of which are automatic (eg Stench, Fear) or occur as part of some other ability (poison, energy drain). Su abilities are affected by anti-magic, but not by dispel magic or other spell-related effects.
RaspK FOG 12-19-05, 10:00 PM	Forgive my error, I misstyped that the aforementioned abilities are spell-like, not supernatural... :blush: Let us reiterate: Spells are cast with a DC of 10 + spell level + relevant ability bonus, require a minimum ability score of 10 + spell level to cast, may include a material, verbal, somatic, or XP component and/or a focus; they may be countered, dispelled, and supressed by antimagic. Spell-like abilities have a DC of 10 + spell level + Charisma bonus, require a minimum Charisma score of 10 + spell level, but have no need for components or foci, yet they can be countered, dispelled, or suppressed in antimagic. Supernatural abilities have a DC of 10 + ½ HD + Charisma modifier, need no components, cannot be countered or dispelled, but are supressed in antimagic. Natural spell-casting works like spell-casting (usually based on Charisma) but does not need any components; you still must use any foci needed.
runestar 12-19-05, 10:18 PM	SLAs cannot be countered, nor can they be used to counter. The notable exception is the dispel magic SLA. The wotc article suggests that SLAs normally subject to dispelling can be countered, though how accurate that is is really anyone's guess. :)